Mini Normal 2054: Winter's Sacrifice [Game Over]


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Post Post #9 (isolation #0) » Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:50 pm

Post by Dannflor »

VOTE: JunkoChan

I stand with hope.
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Post Post #11 (isolation #1) » Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:58 pm

Post by Dannflor »

fence-sitting already smh
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Post Post #34 (isolation #2) » Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:32 am

Post by Dannflor »

In post 32, JunkoChan wrote:still don't like votes without a reason, even minimal
You don't see value in naked votes even as a reaction test?
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Post Post #40 (isolation #3) » Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:50 am

Post by Dannflor »

In post 35, JunkoChan wrote:You can disguise anything as a reaction test tho
Sure. That doesn't answer my question though?

Also, rosterfoster is town.
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Post Post #44 (isolation #4) » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:01 am

Post by Dannflor »

In post 38, rosterfoster wrote:Except I just checked and I wrongly scumread that slot (they were actually town, deep) and we almost lynched them. So I think maybe I have a bias towards that kind of post.
Scum doesn't go to this much effort to check their reads, nor do they want to. Additionally, I don't think a scum rosterfoster mentions this thought process at all when it basically calls himself out for being wrong. I also had the same gut reaction to BuJaber's post as he did.

A naked vote is not—particularly in RVS—scummy. Junko, why do you view it as scummy?

IMO, scum is much more likely to add fluff reasons why they're voting so that they can appear involved in the discussion. Naked voting draws too much attention.
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Post Post #47 (isolation #5) » Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:04 am

Post by Dannflor »

I mean scum doesn't "scumread" someone based on something that happened in a previous game and then double check that to compare. It's too elaborate to fake. Yea, you can argue WIFOM or whatever but there's a far greater likelihood that line of thought comes from town.
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Post Post #54 (isolation #6) » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:47 am

Post by Dannflor »

Meh. I don't really think scum!roster brings in outside information (that makes his job of keeping his story straight harder) and then contradicts himself within the same post. What does he gain from doing that?
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Post Post #55 (isolation #7) » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:48 am

Post by Dannflor »

Junko is probably town too but I still want to hear why she thinks naked voting is scummy.
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Post Post #56 (isolation #8) » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:50 am

Post by Dannflor »

VOTE: Egix
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Post Post #61 (isolation #9) » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:12 pm

Post by Dannflor »

I don't mean to come off as know-it-all, sorry.

I don't agree that naked votes are necessarily status quo for noob mafia though? What makes you say that? When I was noob mafia I was very into the whole "come up with a fun RVS excuse to blend in and look town like everyone else" camp. Naked voting stands out, as demonstrated by you calling it out, which makes me think it's not something mafia (mostly noob mafia) is as inclined to do.
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Post Post #62 (isolation #10) » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:19 pm

Post by Dannflor »

In post 41, Egix96 wrote:Why should you be put off by someone naked-voting in RVS? I can't really say I agree with that attitude, it seems a bit scummy to me actually.
Why would this attitude be scummy?
In post 18, Egix96 wrote:Hi guys.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

You've been a townie against maf!me, then an SK against maf!me...
Now let's see if you're a mafia against town!me.
Speaking of bad RVS posts, I don't like this. It reads like an attempt to subtly let everyone know you're
definitely
town this game but comes out a bit forced.
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Post Post #64 (isolation #11) » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:35 pm

Post by Dannflor »

That's fair. I'm not a site-meta expert or anything I just see naked voting as inherently a little 'riskier.'
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Post Post #80 (isolation #12) » Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:16 am

Post by Dannflor »

In post 69, BuJaber wrote:Why? You have too many townreads so soon into the game.
I'll explain later in this post but why is two townreads (the only ones I've mentioned, I believe) "too many?" Reads can change. Also, getting strong townreads early is one of the best ways to pin down mafia by process of elimination. This is a weak thing to criticize me for. You should criticize me for the actual reasoning behind my reads, like flubbernugget did, as that gets discussion going, not "having reads." Do townreads make you nervous?
In post 71, BuJaber wrote:Gamma is null at best and slightly scummy for not following the game closely enough.
It's not the subject of the vote that I take issue with. It's that it's naked after Dann said he thinks scum are more inclined to post reasons with their votes than not.
Do you have any other reads, BuJaber? Why is Gamma null-scum for not following the game closely? Does town always follow the game 100%?

Also, I'm not about to townread everyone who naked votes. Naked voting is NAI more often than not and not the reason I townread rosterfoster in the first place.
In post 73, Egix96 wrote:You popped in just to say that, after I had already questioned it and been answered? Why?
This is a rather empty question, which represents my main issue with this slot in general. Lots of questions that don't really do anything but try and look productive. People have already commented on this, Gamma is bound to realize and respond. What answer are you searching for other than "Oops I didn't read carefully?" There's also been more interesting things happening in this game than Gamma missing posts, why not comment on that or people's reads?
In post 73, Egix96 wrote:I don't like that she seems to feel the need to FoS someone for not giving a reason for their vote, at a stage of the game where virtually all reasons for votes are just made up (or at least not pertinent to the game) anyway.
She didn't FoS him, she voted him. If she thinks that's a noob scum tell, why wouldn't she vote him at that stage of the game? Also, note that she tried (and succeeded as far as I can tell) to break the game out of RVS, and was the very first one to do this not a page in. Does scum do that? I don't think so, particularly when she had the opportunity to continue with her roleplaying fluff with Gamma.
In post 76, BuJaber wrote:I'd rather have someone read too much into things and receive additional explanations than dismiss things as NAI by default. Excluding things like trying to analyze the mod or replacements or real life events etc.
Which is it? You say I have too many townreads too early on and then you say you'd rather someone read too much into things than dismiss things as NAI.

UNVOTE: Egix
VOTE: BuJaber
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Post Post #87 (isolation #13) » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:18 pm

Post by Dannflor »

I don't think pointing certain things out as town early on is necessarily bad. I'd argue D1 is (even early) one of the best times to get clear reads. I agree conf biasing is a danger and not good for town, but I consider that a separate issue.
In post 86, BuJaber wrote:Scum can skim things and usually be fine
As Flubbernugget has already noted, scum has a harder time keeping their story straight. The whole SHROOP theory is built around this concept that scum are more likely to be careful with their posting and revise things. So I don't agree that scum can skim things and usually be fine, that's a sign of really bad scum.

Why is your vote still on Nikk, a player who has not yet picked up his role PM vs. Gamma, a player you yourself said is anti-town at best and at worst scummy?

What is your opinion on Egix not reading closely enough to see that Junko voted rosterfoster instead of FoSing him? Do you also think that's scummy?
In post 73, Egix96 wrote:I don't like that she seems to feel the need to FoS someone for not giving a reason for their vote, at a stage of the game where virtually all reasons for votes are just made up (or at least not pertinent to the game) anyway.
In post 84, Egix96 wrote:
In post 24, JunkoChan wrote:The game looks too cute, so the messed up things must be like REALLY messed up, I'll give it a try.

talking about seeing some shit, is a really shitty vote even for rvs

VOTE: roosterfroster
Yep, seems like that's what she did.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Gamma
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Post Post #90 (isolation #14) » Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:10 pm

Post by Dannflor »

In post 31, Egix96 wrote:
In post 27, JunkoChan wrote:
In post 26, Haschel Cedricson wrote:
In post 24, JunkoChan wrote:The game looks too cute, so the messed up things must be like REALLY messed up, I'll give it a try.

talking about seeing some shit, is a really shitty vote even for rvs

VOTE: roosterfroster
Explain.
Sure, vote with no context on someone who hasn't even posted yet are always ringing bells for me, call it a hunch or actual meta gaming, either way I don't like it
But Jaber had made two posts prior to that vote? Or am I misunderstanding?
In post 32, JunkoChan wrote:my bad, I think I skipped those, still don't like votes without a reason, even minimal
In post 58, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 27, JunkoChan wrote:
In post 26, Haschel Cedricson wrote:
In post 24, JunkoChan wrote:The game looks too cute, so the messed up things must be like REALLY messed up, I'll give it a try.

talking about seeing some shit, is a really shitty vote even for rvs

VOTE: roosterfroster
Explain.
Sure, vote with no context on someone who hasn't even posted yet are always ringing bells for me, call it a hunch or actual meta gaming, either way I don't like it
But BuJaber has posted...
People aren't voting you for inactivity when there are three players who haven't even posted yet.
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Post Post #96 (isolation #15) » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:27 am

Post by Dannflor »

In post 81, rosterfoster wrote:I think Bujaber is town.
Why?
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Post Post #98 (isolation #16) » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:54 am

Post by Dannflor »

??? just how many scum do you think there are
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Post Post #101 (isolation #17) » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:46 pm

Post by Dannflor »

I can see what you're saying, but I think it's less about scum "giving themselves away" and more about town tells being more indicative than scum tells. After how many posts do you think it is appropriate to start gathering reads on people?
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Post Post #127 (isolation #18) » Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:43 am

Post by Dannflor »

Why do you see Sashaddin as more fencesitty? I don't really read him that way. Xwing isn't even fencesitty she's just going along with what everyone says.
In post 124, Persivul wrote:
i agree it seems like dann is *trying* to pocket,
I kinda sorta agree...
but his later posts seems fine..
But no, not really.
This actually goes completely along with what has already been said before. Flubber said "town read on roster bad," but the rest of my play seems fine.

And then ofc:
In post 95, xwing wrote:@sasha - strongly agree on dann read
\

It's not even fencesitty it's just saying a lot without actually having anything to say yet.

VOTE: xwing
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Post Post #129 (isolation #19) » Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:25 am

Post by Dannflor »

In post 121, rosterfoster wrote:Hey Xwing. Good to see you again :)

Also you're scum.

VOTE: Xwing
Are you just sheeping Persivul or do you have other reasons to vote here

What happened to your scum read on me?
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Post Post #134 (isolation #20) » Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:47 am

Post by Dannflor »

In post 130, Egix96 wrote:Gamma's not completely off the hook yet though.
Not off the hook for what

Not following the game closely?

not a fan of this justification for moving your vote but I don't think the Gamma wagon is good to begin with
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Post Post #136 (isolation #21) » Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:36 am

Post by Dannflor »

why do you put two dots after every sentence, at least commit to the ellipsis

So far you've said Haschel reads town, do you have reads on anyone else or is that your strongest reaction to this game so far
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Post Post #139 (isolation #22) » Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:57 am

Post by Dannflor »

In post 137, Egix96 wrote:I still don't think Gamma is town.
Can you elaborate on this? Other people voting her could weigh in on this too. I don't see anything Gamma has done (or hasn't done) as scum indicative. I could
maybe
see pressure voting her to get her to pay attention to the game, but to say you don't think she's town at this point makes me think you're seeing something I'm not.
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Post Post #140 (isolation #23) » Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:58 am

Post by Dannflor »

What about persivul's style don't you like
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Post Post #157 (isolation #24) » Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:37 pm

Post by Dannflor »

In post 146, Sashaddin wrote:I like but am not willing to vote xwing myself yet.
UNVOTE: xwing
VOTE: Sashaddin

Are you willing to vote xwing now?
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Post Post #158 (isolation #25) » Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:40 pm

Post by Dannflor »

In post 141, Egix96 wrote:Nothing Gamma has said makes me think they could be town. That's really all there is to it.
Why is this a scum read? What of the very little non RP that Gamma's done has been overtly scummy? Because the way you're phrasing your read here makes me think it could apply to any number of people at this stage of the game.
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Post Post #182 (isolation #26) » Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:49 am

Post by Dannflor »

In post 181, Gamma Emerald wrote:Mhm, I think I found the scum from the xwing wagon, the way you care none for which of us is lynched tell me both are equal in your eyes. This also indicates xwing is town, which I wasn't sure of yet.
You believe the scum on the xwing wagon was the first player on the wagon? Do you think the xwing wagon is bad?

I'll meta dive on Egix later because I'm stuck on him being scummy
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Post Post #210 (isolation #27) » Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:30 pm

Post by Dannflor »

In post 190, Gamma Emerald wrote:I noted that a lot of people expressed interest in voting xwing before voting. Vote order doesn’t matter that much because of that.
In post 116, Persivul wrote: Horrible entrance

VOTE: xwing
No one expressed interest before Persivul voted here, Gamma.

When does scum!persivul
start
a strong wagon on xwing and then change his mind on both xwing and sash?

If you're looking for scum on the xwing wagon, what about these votes:
In post 121, rosterfoster wrote:Hey Xwing. Good to see you again :)

Also you're scum.

VOTE: Xwing
In post 133, Tchill13 wrote:
In post 120, Persivul wrote:
In post 119, BuJaber wrote:
In post 118, Persivul wrote:He has three posts. Too early to say.
Then what was scummy about xwing's post?
The two
I agrees
.Looks like scum that doesn't know how to generate content but feels a need to put content up.
In post 121, rosterfoster wrote:Hey Xwing. Good to see you again :)

Also you're scum.

VOTE: Xwing
VOTE: xwing
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Post Post #253 (isolation #28) » Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:32 pm

Post by Dannflor »

If Persivul is scum, he stays on the xwing wagon. I don't think any of his play makes sense as scum.

I gave Gamma a pass early game because I don't think not following the game closely is necessarily a scum tell, but after that she's just been blatantly getting things wrong.

Obviously, voting Persivul for BS reasons is bad, but also framing it in a way to allow herself to outright ignore the
much scummier
votes in Roster and Tchill feels intentional. This isn't just not paying attention, it's contrived.

VOTE: Gamma

I feel good about [Persivul, Flubber, Junko]

I'm feeling less good about Roster now.

I'm actually very very uneasy about Slaxx coming in and instantly townreading me, sheeping my initial read on Roster, and just generally going along with popular consensus (similar feelings to the first xwing post but less obvious). I also don't think Persivul is where you vote if you're having trouble getting a scum read.

pedit: I think BuJaber is also more likely town now
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Post Post #271 (isolation #29) » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:08 am

Post by Dannflor »

@Tchill, do you still think xwing is scummy?

What are your reads? #266 is a BS excuse. You don't have to go in depth about your reads, not many people are or even can do that at this point of the game with any legitimacy. Giving basic thoughts on the players in the game shouldn't be difficult.
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Post Post #307 (isolation #30) » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:10 pm

Post by Dannflor »

Actually, I changed my mind on rosterfoster again: #296 town pings me.

@rosterfoster, how much mafia experience do you have? Are you an alt or do you come from a different site? This will help me sort you better.
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Post Post #308 (isolation #31) » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:14 pm

Post by Dannflor »

In post 306, Sashaddin wrote:Townies: Percy HC
Leaning Town: xwing Egix Slaxx Flubber

Notables suspects:
Bubujaber for jumping off my wagon when it was dissolving and joining Gamma's
JumkoChan for lurking
Eh, scum reading Junko for lurking is kind of weak. Tchill and roster both have less posts than her.

I still think she's town for her early game push onto rosterfoster, though this is a little suspect:
In post 102, JunkoChan wrote:sometimes I have gotten the feeling of someone being scum right after their first post, I'm not a god or anything but it happens
In post 274, JunkoChan wrote:sorry for low participation my early game reads are not the best
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Post Post #309 (isolation #32) » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:18 pm

Post by Dannflor »

In post 281, BuJaber wrote:
In post 263, xwing wrote:im not a fan of a scum!sasha anymore..
Why?

VOTE: Gamma
You're note about BuJaber is interesting though. BuJaber, you still scum read Sashaddin, yea? Why did you move to the Gamma wagon?
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Post Post #310 (isolation #33) » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:23 pm

Post by Dannflor »

In post 306, Sashaddin wrote:Townies: Percy HC
Leaning Town: xwing Egix Slaxx Flubber

Notables suspects:
Bubujaber for jumping off my wagon when it was dissolving and joining Gamma's
JumkoChan for lurking
I can't help but notice you're not voting anyone? Why wouldn't you vote one of your "notable suspects" to apply pressure?

What are your thoughts on the Gamma wagon?
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Post Post #312 (isolation #34) » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:25 pm

Post by Dannflor »

You don't have strong scum reads but you aren't currently questioning people or attempting to gather better reads for yourself. With your vote on no one right now it looks like you're just content on posting read lists to look town without actually forwarding the state of the game. If the Gamma wagon is so mystifying to you why don't you question it? Or use your vote to pressure people who jumped in for "whatever reasons?"

"I vote easier when I'm more convinced" reads like you just don't want to look suspicious for voting for poor reasons, or you can't find good ones (which again you should be actively looking for those, which you are not). It's early D1, no one's reasons are particularly good. Regardless, your vote is your weapon, use it to find a better place to put it if you must.

VOTE: Sashaddin

Myself, roster, Tchill, and Gamma are all missing from your reads lists. Are we all null reads to you?
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Post Post #313 (isolation #35) » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:29 pm

Post by Dannflor »

In post 209, Sashaddin wrote:The fact that pushing you to L-1 would make you vulnerable to lolhammers and quickhammers. We've only started, I didn't my position was strong enough on you to push this hard, contextually.
Now that your wagon has thinned, I can vote a bit more at peace. I'll reread you in our previous game to see how you compare when I have time though.
Like, you're just
so
conscious of how your vote is going to look as opposed to what it actually does and that doesn't feel particularly town. Do you tend to do this in all of your games?
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Post Post #328 (isolation #36) » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:01 am

Post by Dannflor »

In post 315, Sashaddin wrote:Making talk is good, too much pressure lead to myslynches imho.
Except my point is you're not making talk, you posted a generic reads list and aren't really attempting to sort people better or clear up confusing aspects of the game to you. If you aren't using your vote, and you aren't doing that, you're effectively doing nothing.
In post 327, Sashaddin wrote:
In post 322, Egix96 wrote:Why is Haschel a strong townread for you?
I reallly liked the posts to 242. really objective and to the point.
I also have a hard time imagining coming from scum, especially points 3 and 4.
You town read Haschel for these points and yet you don't townread me for making the exact same points earlier in the game. Why?
In post 280, Haschel Cedricson wrote: 3) Voting for the towniest person on the xwing wagon and simultaneously saying that would make tchill town.
4) When pushed on why Persival of the three options, came up with reasoning that didn't make sense. When it was pointed out that Persival was first on the wagon, Gamma made up a justification that was not only ideologically shaky but also demonstrably false. That smacks of scum making a vote and finding reasoning for it later.
In post 210, Dannflor wrote:No one expressed interest before Persivul voted here, Gamma.

When does scum!persivul start a strong wagon on xwing and then change his mind on both xwing and sash?

If you're looking for scum on the xwing wagon, what about these votes:
In post 253, Dannflor wrote:If Persivul is scum, he stays on the xwing wagon. I don't think any of his play makes sense as scum.

I gave Gamma a pass early game because I don't think not following the game closely is necessarily a scum tell, but after that she's just been blatantly getting things wrong.

Obviously, voting Persivul for BS reasons is bad, but also framing it in a way to allow herself to outright ignore the
much scummier
votes in Roster and Tchill feels intentional. This isn't just not paying attention, it's contrived.

VOTE: Gamma
In post 314, Persivul wrote:
In post 261, Tchill13 wrote:Yeah
I'm still fine with my xwing vote
. Especially considering it went from the leading wagon and the game turned to multiple wagons with multiple votes. That means we're pretty divided on where to go.
All ik is ppl don't want xwing lynched atm.
Am I missing something? This reads like,
yeah I'm fine parking my vote somewhere that I know it's not doing any good
.
I was going to keep my vote on Sash, but I actually looked at his meta since that's the main argument for town!Sash, and I have to agree his play matches his town games more. However, I'm not ready to strongly townread him as in his other town games he still took on a more active questioning role which I have yet to see here.

Tchill, on the other hand, disappeared as soon as pressure started being applied to him (maybe hoping it would blow over and another wagon would catch our attention?), and his last post is a BS "I don't wanna share my reads." Let's get him talking.

VOTE: Tchill

I agree on Slaxx, though I'm leaning more town as of now. I also reread Gamma's ISO and feel less good about that, namely due to #251. Looking forward to the fabled rosterfoster catch up post.
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Post Post #332 (isolation #37) » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:47 am

Post by Dannflor »

Fair. Just wondering because you'd committed me completely from your reads list before.
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Post Post #333 (isolation #38) » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:47 am

Post by Dannflor »

omitted*
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Post Post #335 (isolation #39) » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:48 am

Post by Dannflor »

That's L-1
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Post Post #336 (isolation #40) » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:52 am

Post by Dannflor »

Why are you so sure a Bujaber wagon wouldn't go anywhere? I was voting him earlier.

If you could rank your 4 scum reads in order of how scummy you find them how would you rank them?

Also could you answer my question from #307?
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Post Post #344 (isolation #41) » Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:32 pm

Post by Dannflor »

In post 342, Slaxx wrote:UNVOTE:

My vote is still effectively here but I’d at least like a claim.
I'd honestly just like a response from anything from the last ~6 pages before a claim even.
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Post Post #356 (isolation #42) » Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:20 am

Post by Dannflor »

Don't think Junko's quick hammer attempt comes from scum
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Post Post #363 (isolation #43) » Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:33 am

Post by Dannflor »

I asked why you were so sure a BuJaber wagon wouldn't go anywhere, particularly since that's your top scum read. I said I was voting him earlier (I was), I don't know if I'm willing to vote him now. I just wanted you to elaborate on that.
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Post Post #366 (isolation #44) » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:05 am

Post by Dannflor »

If BuJaber is your top scum read why would you not try to persuade people to join you there?
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Post Post #371 (isolation #45) » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:05 am

Post by Dannflor »

In post 360, JunkoChan wrote:he could be white knighting tchill with that "attempt to L-1" and then 180 into Bujager who had literally 0 votes on him
I believe you're conflating Sashaddin and rosterfoster here
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Post Post #373 (isolation #46) » Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:24 pm

Post by Dannflor »

In post 348, JunkoChan wrote:
In post 346, Sashaddin wrote:
In post 339, JunkoChan wrote:Why are you comming with this wagon right when Tchill is about to die makes me go mmhmmm

also, I'm okay with this VOTE: Tchill
Also, your hammer comes on a player you never ever mentioned once during this game yet. Sheeping for a hammer?
looking for a easy way to throw suspicion on me? I just think is a good lynch, I don't have to mention the guy to vote him or do I?

white knighting much?
I thought you were calling out Sashaddin for white knighting here but then your later post makes me think you're talking about roster
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Post Post #404 (isolation #47) » Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:09 am

Post by Dannflor »

I won't be able to get to a computer until later to make a bigger post, but Gamma and Roster are town.

Gut is that Bujaber is more likely scum than Sasha but I want to take time to look over things again anyway
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Post Post #423 (isolation #48) » Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:35 pm

Post by Dannflor »

Hey, everyone! On a computer now so I can be a bit more thorough.

Gamma
- is a lazy mislynch in my opinion. The "too scummy to be scum" argument is usually WIFOM, but I think it fits in Gamma's case. She tries a lot harder when scum. Scum doesn't come into the day with #391, draw attention to themselves, and then proceed to do... nothing. In general, Gamma's kinda lame early game questioning fits my experience with her town meta, it's how she tries to get herself into the game. Also, there's NO reason as scum in #181 to go after Persivul when there are a few strong wagons going already on (presumably) town, it just draws attention to himself. This isn't scum trying to drive a mislynch, it's town trying too hard. His subsequent backing off in #251 town pings me as well.

Roster
- I've explained some reasons I thought roster was town already. Slaxx thought the same! while we're looking at dead people's reads. He can also be town pretty much for #334 alone. I don't think scum goes, "hey this is my biggest scum read and a convincing case against him, but I'm going to vote my buddy who is in danger of being lynched instead." The attitude of pushing a wagon as opposed to a lynch he believes won't go anywhere is also a town outlook on the game. Scum!roster tries way harder to push Bujaber or literally anyone as a counterwagon to his buddy here.

Junko
xwing
Persivul
Egix
Flubber
Haschel
- I'm not gonna explain these town reads right now, they aren't in order. If you have questions about them specifically, I'll explain. I've already been over Junko, everything she's posted since then has been VERY town. I am least sure of my xwing and Egix reads here, but I still think they're pretty solidly town over the remaining slots.

Which leaves:

Sashaddin
- Conflicted about this slot. The fact that he never voted Tchill LOOKS bad, but it doesn't necessarily mean he's scum. A lot of his posts flaky with poor reasoning and awkward pushes. But, this slot also gives me easy mislynch bait vibes. #382 and #408 seem just way too on the nose to come from scum.

BuJaber
- Scum. Persivul has touched on this, but I'll reiterate in more detail for people who aren't quite getting it yet. BuJaber has 23 posts. A large percentage of them are dedicated to talking about how the game should be played and game theory rather than this game itself. This is a textbook way for scum to appear involved in the game without actually risking anything. Posts #86 and #103 are particularly guilty of this. They're thicc blocks of text that really don't say much at all and advance the game exactly 0%. Additionally, BuJaber mentioned Tchill exactly once to say he was null-leaning slightly scummy, despite the face that he was a driving wagon.

Let's look at the end of day VC.
In post 387, Mewtaph wrote:
[7]
Tchill13
:
Persivul
(),
xwing
(),
Dannflor
(),
JunkoChan
(),
rosterfoster
(),
Egix96
(),
Slaxx
()
[2]
Gamma Emerald
:[/color]
Haschel Cedricson
(),
BuJaber
()
[1]
xwing
:[/color]
Tchill13
()
[1]
JunkoChan
:[/color]
Sashaddin
()

[2] Not Voting
:
Gamma Emerald
(),
Flubbernugget
()

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Looking at this, we can basically clear xwing. Tchill isn't going to be bussing his buddy D1. In fact, I highly doubt there was any bussing going on in a game of this size and on D1. Sashaddin MAYBE could've been doing it because of his awkward switch away end of day, but the smartest place for scum to be is riding the counter wagon, which was most consistently the Gamma wagon throughout D1. Who is still on the Gamma wagon and failed to even mention Tchill more than once despite him being the most prominent wagon in the game? Bujaber.

VOTE: Bujaber

Also
In post 358, Slaxx wrote:I’m scumreading Sash again, especially if tchill flips red here.
I don't think Slaxx was killed for this.
In post 386, Slaxx wrote:I would be very,
very
surprised if that claim was true.
This is most likely what he was killed for. It could be interpreted to mean that Slaxx is a PR that specifically makes Tchill's desperate claim very unbelievable due to game balance or setup. I think he was intentionally trying to draw the NK.
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Post Post #452 (isolation #49) » Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:02 am

Post by Dannflor »

In post 432, BuJaber wrote:@Dann - your case on me ignores that my posts are explaining reasoning behind my reads. It also assumes that I am scum and that gamma is town before it begins to analyze the wagons and not after.
There is no reasonable reason to think that gamma was actually a counterwagon to tchill. Tchill votes piled up far too quickly for a typical day 1. I was unsure on what that meant. Gamma who was my top scumread early on was not posting and engaging with me so I had no reason to change my vote before getting a response. Also from my experience the first 1 or 2 wagons that get up there on day 1 always dissipate. I wanted to vote gamma so gamma responds to me and to see how others react, I doubt it would have even been hammered but it had to look like real pressure. And while waiting and trying to sort the nullslots I was talking to other scumreads like sasha and xwing.

You don't like how I sort what is scummy and what isn't you can give me your feedback after the game but let's not start changing the narrative of day 1 in hindsight. It's easy to call tchill scum after he flips. For me it is my first game with him, and from what I could tell he was pretty much just not posting much. Activity is not a reliable scumtell.

Sorry I wasn't on a wagon about to be hammered 4 days before deadline. I don't vote for people just cause others are.
To spend so much energy on explaining your reads this early on in the game is only fine if your reads are actually substantive. Most of your reads involve you calling people slightly scummy. Then once you call me, Haschel, and Junko "more townie" than Slaxx. Reading through your ISO I don't really get a strong sense of who you think is town or scum at all, which coincidentally is the same thing we crucified Tchill for.
In post 281, BuJaber wrote:
In post 263, xwing wrote:im not a fan of a scum!sasha anymore..
Why?

VOTE: Gamma
You vote Gamma here, a good chunk of the way through the day, without actually asking him anything. You asked him questions earlier, but HE did respond and back off in post #251. YOU are changing the narrative of the day.

I hate pretty much the entirety of your response to my case because it reads as one big AtE. Also, I have good reason to town read Gamma.
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Post Post #460 (isolation #50) » Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:57 am

Post by Dannflor »

In a 13 player game, is 2 or 3 scum standard?
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Post Post #464 (isolation #51) » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:24 am

Post by Dannflor »

Hm. BuJaber, what are your thoughts on Sashaddin? You neglect to mention him in your list of scummy Tchill votes. What do you think of his activity towards the end of D1 and interaction with the Tchill wagon? What is your read on him?
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Post Post #467 (isolation #52) » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:41 am

Post by Dannflor »

Because I'm not sure yet whether Sash and Bujaber are scum together, which may mean I need to revisit my town reads.
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Post Post #471 (isolation #53) » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:40 am

Post by Dannflor »

In post 436, Persivul wrote:Let's get some intent on Blu. Assuming this goes through, I'm targeting sash tonight.
Junko, are you saying this post was meant for scum PT? Or are you referring to something else?
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Post Post #481 (isolation #54) » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:18 am

Post by Dannflor »

In post 464, Dannflor wrote:BuJaber, what are your thoughts on Sashaddin? You neglect to mention him in your list of scummy Tchill votes. What do you think of his activity towards the end of D1 and interaction with the Tchill wagon? What is your read on him?
I want a claim and an answer to the above before any flip.
In post 421, Flubbernugget wrote:Uh yeah between slaxx's read, the wagon dynamics, and whatever the hell 408 just was,

VOTE: sash
Yea this is a bad post and a good catch by xwing. "Slaxx's read" and "wagon dynamics" are both flaky non-reasons to join a wagon. In general I think I'm leaning towards Sash being newer awkward town, not scum, but maybe that gut is wrong.

One scum is among [roster, Bujaber] and I strongly think Bujaber. The other is probably among my town reads.
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Post Post #482 (isolation #55) » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:21 am

Post by Dannflor »

Flubber was off the Tchill wagon end of day too. He never voted Tchill until he was basically forced into it to begin with. He gave intent to hammer but scum will do that to an obviously doomed lynch anyway for town cred. If BuJaber flips scum then a Flubber/BuJaber scum team looks likely actually.
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Post Post #483 (isolation #56) » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:23 am

Post by Dannflor »

In post 434, BuJaber wrote:Flubber could also be scum here because he was the only one that voted for tchill but then unvoted.
In post 435, Flubbernugget wrote:Uhhh

You do realize I had all of two minutes to hammer after the claim right?
Hmmmm maybe I'm confbiasing

I'll think about it.

For now I think Bujaber is still the best lynch over Sashaddin
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Post Post #497 (isolation #57) » Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:45 pm

Post by Dannflor »

Meh. Sashaddin vs. Junko is feeling more town vs. town.

(also you guys scum read each other, it's fine, no need for attacks)
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Post Post #502 (isolation #58) » Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:58 pm

Post by Dannflor »

Who do you think is scum?

Drop all your VCA and wagon analysis. Who is scummiest to you off of posting alone and why?
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Post Post #506 (isolation #59) » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:14 pm

Post by Dannflor »

In post 503, BuJaber wrote:If you just want all the current reads in one post for clarity,

Town or townlean: {haschel, dann, persivul, junko}
Null but not scum if sasha is: {gamma, xwing}
Scum or scumlean: {sashaddin, roster, egix, flubber}
Yes, thank you this is what I want. Explain your Egix scum read?
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Post Post #508 (isolation #60) » Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:03 am

Post by Dannflor »

In post 507, Sashaddin wrote:But the hammer attempt on day1 is still suspiciously scummy to me.
Think it through. Why would scum want to do something that draws so much attention? What's Junko's motivation to quick hammer her own buddy before there's even a claim and a chance for him to survive? 9/10 that move comes from frustrated or YOLO!town than scum from my experience.
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Post Post #519 (isolation #61) » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:26 am

Post by Dannflor »

In post 513, Egix96 wrote:I can imagine that interaction being w/w tbh.
Me too. But I'm worried I'm conf biasing seeing that because a Flubber/BuJaber solve feels too easy.
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Post Post #520 (isolation #62) » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:30 am

Post by Dannflor »

In post 514, xwing wrote:i think the buj wagon having no resistance at all is a red flag, so i want more time to discuss..can someone please unvote?
How easily the wagon was built means either two things:

A. We've got scum and his buddy Flubber is desperately trying to build a counterwagon on Sash.

B. Scum is completely content to let this lynch go through as it is an easy mislynch.

The real question is what lynch gives us the most information regardless of flip? A BuJaber lynch could implicate Roster or Flubber depending on the flip. Going after someone like Gamma at this point isn't really going to give us information to go on for Day 3.

Like, our pool of suspects is just rather low and I think BuJaber is both the scummiest slot and the one that gives us the most information. I still think we should keep discussion going for a while as it may help solidify a definite town bloc, but I don't really see a better lynch candidate than BuJaber
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Post Post #521 (isolation #63) » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:32 am

Post by Dannflor »

In post 517, Egix96 wrote:but I will say that the phrasing "my last scum game" seems just a teeny bit slippy.
Meh, that's a real stretch. My last x game just means my most recent game is that alignment. I don't know how else he'd refer to his latest scum game regardless of his alignment this game.
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Post Post #522 (isolation #64) » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:34 am

Post by Dannflor »

I think xwing and Junko are my top town reads now. Egix is creeping up there two despite my earlier paranoia.
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Post Post #523 (isolation #65) » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:40 am

Post by Dannflor »

In post 516, xwing wrote:im conflicted on flubber..the vca looks bad, but he did give the intent to hammer..
The intent to hammer was to get a claim out of Tchill, who knows if he was planning to actually hammer after that? Also, an intent to hammer on an already doomed slot isn't exactly AI.
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Post Post #526 (isolation #66) » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:57 am

Post by Dannflor »

Honestly, add Sashaddin to my confident town reads. I just can't see this slot as anything other than newer town.
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Post Post #528 (isolation #67) » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:16 am

Post by Dannflor »

In post 500, Mewtaph wrote:The Day 2 deadline is in: 9 days, 21 hours, 45 minutes
Looks so.

Yea having people weigh in that haven't had a chance yet would be nice. Not sure if Gamma is actually gonna play this game or not.

I get your hesitation towards Roster. I think there's probably 1 scum in [roster, bujaber], I just think bujaber is more likely.
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Post Post #530 (isolation #68) » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:55 am

Post by Dannflor »

I thought you were town reading him off his meta earlier

Do you have a link to that game?

I peeked at some of his other town games and they seem to match what I see here
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Post Post #534 (isolation #69) » Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:05 pm

Post by Dannflor »

In post 199, Persivul wrote:I don't think it's sash either, based on meta. How about.....
Huh
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Post Post #540 (isolation #70) » Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:12 pm

Post by Dannflor »

Yea, I might be being premature. I keep oscillating wildly back and forth on Sashaddin every time I look at him.

I'd really like Flubber to come back, his latest post wasn't great.
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Post Post #558 (isolation #71) » Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:24 am

Post by Dannflor »

One person unvoted, I don't know how that qualifies as a wagon dying.

Is Gamma gonna play this game
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Post Post #567 (isolation #72) » Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:33 pm

Post by Dannflor »

In post 563, Flubbernugget wrote:
In post 514, xwing wrote:i think the buj wagon having no resistance at all is a red flag, so i want more time to discuss..can someone please unvote?
...you do realize this
is
the resistance to the wagon...right?
there was also relatively little resistance to the Tchill wagon day 1 tbh, so this point doesn't really work
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Post Post #568 (isolation #73) » Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:33 pm

Post by Dannflor »

^^ referring to xwing saying it's a red flag
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Post Post #606 (isolation #74) » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:39 am

Post by Dannflor »

In post 605, rosterfoster wrote:We probably solve the game if we massclaim. I go last.
Flubber goes first.
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Post Post #608 (isolation #75) » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:46 am

Post by Dannflor »

Last scum is within [HC, Flubber, Gamma, Sash] imo
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Post Post #609 (isolation #76) » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:47 am

Post by Dannflor »

I think Gamma and Sash are more likely town though
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Post Post #611 (isolation #77) » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:21 am

Post by Dannflor »

If we are to mass claim, they go first or near first.
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Post Post #615 (isolation #78) » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:20 am

Post by Dannflor »

Hascel can actually go first.
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Post Post #617 (isolation #79) » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:26 am

Post by Dannflor »

Flubber can claim later. Hasch and then Sash and then popcorn to roster and flubber
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Post Post #618 (isolation #80) » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:27 am

Post by Dannflor »

Unless someone wants to claim what happened last night to start things off.
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Post Post #621 (isolation #81) » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:49 am

Post by Dannflor »

Why didn’t you lead with that Roster
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Post Post #627 (isolation #82) » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:16 am

Post by Dannflor »

Yea go ahead and claim Flubber. If there are conflicts we'll lynch one and then the other.
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Post Post #632 (isolation #83) » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:56 am

Post by Dannflor »

Eh. Let’s go Flubber > Hasch > Sash unless there are any objections
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Post Post #641 (isolation #84) » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:21 am

Post by Dannflor »

Gamma is town
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Post Post #642 (isolation #85) » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:22 am

Post by Dannflor »

So is roster, he can claim near last
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Post Post #645 (isolation #86) » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:34 pm

Post by Dannflor »

Flubber just claim next time you're on, don't wait till L-1

I don't wanna lynch here until we have all the info on the board, gotta get that perfect game :D
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Post Post #648 (isolation #87) » Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:20 pm

Post by Dannflor »

oops sorry I ruined everything :((
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Post Post #655 (isolation #88) » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:00 am

Post by Dannflor »

Did you know this from the start of the game?
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Post Post #656 (isolation #89) » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:06 am

Post by Dannflor »

Also, Roster, if you're a follower or something with a result on Flubber, that's probably a guilty.
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Post Post #658 (isolation #90) » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:14 am

Post by Dannflor »

He isn't lying in his claim. I can confirm that.

But why does town have an informed role about town PRs?

However, does Goon + 1-shot Encryptor + Informed Goon make sense balance wise?
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Post Post #660 (isolation #91) » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:20 am

Post by Dannflor »

VOTE: Flubber

do you have anything else to claim? you're awfully quiet for someone on the chopping block

should we even finish the mass claim
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Post Post #662 (isolation #92) » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:22 am

Post by Dannflor »

UNVOTE: Flubber

go ahead and claim
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Post Post #664 (isolation #93) » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:23 am

Post by Dannflor »

In post 661, rosterfoster wrote:I mean it's probably an informed modifier on another role.
it's not
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Post Post #666 (isolation #94) » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:24 am

Post by Dannflor »

If he's mafia, he's a goon, I role copped him last night
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Post Post #667 (isolation #95) » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:25 am

Post by Dannflor »

All I got was "Night 2 Informed"
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Post Post #669 (isolation #96) » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:27 am

Post by Dannflor »

However, if you jailed him, then I can't think of any other reason there wasn't a NK

Unless Persivul or someone is a Babysitter
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Post Post #670 (isolation #97) » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:27 am

Post by Dannflor »

Wait that's not how babysitter works nvm. Anyone else have a protective/blocking role?
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Post Post #671 (isolation #98) » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:29 am

Post by Dannflor »

Wait it is, I lack reading comprehension. It might not be Flubber if there is a babysitter in this game and they were successful last night
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Post Post #674 (isolation #99) » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:31 am

Post by Dannflor »

The Informed role still could be a town role to help with claiming.
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Post Post #675 (isolation #100) » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:32 am

Post by Dannflor »

N1 I investigated Gamma, got vanilla, which matches his claim. Since we're looking for a scum PR, he's conf town. N2, Flubber = N2 Informed.
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Post Post #683 (isolation #101) » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:55 am

Post by Dannflor »

In post 680, Flubbernugget wrote:Wait wait WAIT

You FUCKING KNEW I was informed and still wanted me to claim first?

Are you FUCKING kidding me??????
:lol:

I tried to argue for you to claim later but it wasn't happening, esp with Roster's result on you

It's fine, your role still limits what scum can claim.
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Post Post #684 (isolation #102) » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:55 am

Post by Dannflor »

What are you Persivul?
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Post Post #686 (isolation #103) » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:56 am

Post by Dannflor »

In post 683, Dannflor wrote:I tried to argue for you to claim later but it wasn't happening, esp with Roster's result on you
To clarify, I wanted to see if you'd claim something else, because an informed role is scummy. Once you crumbed informed, I tried to argue for you to claim later
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Post Post #687 (isolation #104) » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:57 am

Post by Dannflor »

There are only 3 town PRs

Roster: JK
Persivul: ???
Dannflor: 1-shot Vig Rolecop
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Post Post #689 (isolation #105) » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:00 am

Post by Dannflor »

if Pers doesn't have a reason for the no NK, than it has to be Flubber
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Post Post #713 (isolation #106) » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:22 am

Post by Dannflor »

VOTE: Flubber

I'm struggling to figure out who 4th scum or traitor is if there is one.
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Post Post #715 (isolation #107) » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:22 am

Post by Dannflor »

L-1
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Post Post #716 (isolation #108) » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:24 am

Post by Dannflor »

In post 520, Dannflor wrote:How easily the wagon was built means either two things:

A. We've got scum and his buddy Flubber is desperately trying to build a counterwagon on Sash.


B. Scum is completely content to let this lynch go through as it is an easy mislynch.
It's option A.
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Post Post #717 (isolation #109) » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:25 am

Post by Dannflor »

Flubber has also tried to shade both me and Roster in the last 2 pages. We're conf town and he's desperate.
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Post Post #719 (isolation #110) » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:33 am

Post by Dannflor »

wait I realize i just called roster conf town

but is there a world where this is a desperate and clever scum JK play

probably a very slim chance if so

but balance makes a lot more sense I think
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Post Post #723 (isolation #111) » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:40 am

Post by Dannflor »

Yea, my mind is just going wild with theories because this feels too easy
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Post Post #730 (isolation #112) » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:46 am

Post by Dannflor »

sure claim and hammer
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Post Post #750 (isolation #113) » Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:40 am

Post by Dannflor »

I really tried to lurk and not obv town this game because I was a PR but I kinda failed. Luckily Slaxx ate the night kill. GG thanks for the fun game guys
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Post Post #755 (isolation #114) » Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:45 am

Post by Dannflor »

Town played well, gg

Lynching 2 Mafia in a row made the game pretty easy regardless of setup tbh

Also mvp slaxx for eating the NK :lol:
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Post Post #762 (isolation #115) » Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:58 am

Post by Dannflor »

In post 760, rosterfoster wrote:Also thank you Mewtaph for modding. It was all very smooth.
Seconded
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Post Post #770 (isolation #116) » Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:06 am

Post by Dannflor »

In post 769, xwing wrote:if slaxx wasnt here you would have eaten the NK for sure! haha couldnt help playing townie eh?
yea Slaxx saved my ass there, I suck at playing anything that isn't a VT haha
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Post Post #773 (isolation #117) » Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:38 am

Post by Dannflor »

In post 771, Slaxx wrote:I’d always take a bullet for ya Dann
<3
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Post Post #778 (isolation #118) » Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:25 pm

Post by Dannflor »

I think that's two games now you weren't around much but I hardcore defended you anyway :lol:

Don't worry about it, some games are just hard to get into
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