Mini Normal 2054: Winter's Sacrifice [Game Over]

[BuJaber]

VOTE: Nikk for having an odd spelling of his name.

[BuJaber]

I feel like a spectator already

[BuJaber]

I felt like a spectator because the only real dialogue in the game was the roleplay between gamma and junko. And I have no idea what they're talking about except guessing that it's related to some anime, as confirmed by Gamma later. I didn't know how to join their conversation and made that joke. Obviously it wasn't funny.

[BuJaber]

Unvote
Vote: Gamma

"Let's gain a free townread from Dann."

[BuJaber]

Junko is probably town too but I still want to hear why she thinks naked voting is scummy.

Why? You have too many townreads so soon into the game.

[BuJaber]

Gamma is null at best and slightly scummy for not following the game closely enough.
It's not the subject of the vote that I take issue with. It's that it's naked after Dann said he thinks scum are more inclined to post reasons with their votes than not.

[BuJaber]

I don't like that she seems to feel the need to FoS someone for not giving a reason for their vote, at a stage of the game where virtually all reasons for votes are just made up (or at least not pertinent to the game) anyway.

Well let's be honest there's a difference between weak reasoning (because of minimal information), and made up reasoning.

I'd rather have someone read too much into things and receive additional explanations than dismiss things as NAI by default. Excluding things like trying to analyze the mod or replacements or real life events etc.

[BuJaber]

@Dann - Well if you count naked voters like I did then that's at least three townreads with Haschel. It's good that you aren't actually townreading those.

Also towmreading so soon is a problem. There's little content to go on, leading to weak townreads. It shows that you're easily fooled/too gullibe if town, or if scum: trying to pocket / appear perceptive with an early read you know is right / townreading your partner. Weak townreads can lead to town removing people from the scum pool prematurely. They are dangerous to town if wrong. It is better to be skeptical and cautious and constantly reevaluate. As opposed to weak scumreads which usually attract more criticism so they are inherently more dangerous to scum.

Whether or not someone is TRing or SRing someone, reading too much into things generally leads to oversharing which opens up discussion and makes it easier for everyone else to sort both players. You did this with rooster but not with junko hence why I asked.

Wrt gamma I'm not saying townies always read things closely but not following along very well is in itself anti-town because you miss things or waste time rehashing things already settled. Scum can skim things and usually be fine. Town skimming things is a self-imposed handicap.

[BuJaber]

As Flubbernugget has already noted, scum has a harder time keeping their story straight. The whole SHROOP theory is built around this concept that scum are more likely to be careful with their posting and revise things. So I don't agree that scum can skim things and usually be fine, that's a sign of really bad scum.

Why is your vote still on Nikk, a player who has not yet picked up his role PM vs. Gamma, a player you yourself said is anti-town at best and at worst scummy?

What is your opinion on Egix not reading closely enough to see that Junko voted rosterfoster instead of FoSing him? Do you also think that's scummy?

Perhaps. Guess it depends on how someone plays scum. But they don't need to read as much as town because their reads are manufactured. And if they are paying just enough attention they don't have to bring up stuff they aren't paying close attention to. Town missing things is literally trying to sort people with less information than they have available.

I was thinking about switching gamma around the point haschel voted but first I needed to hear his response. Like I don't see how Haschel's play counts as 'tryharding'. You and egix for example are 'tryharding' much more. I don't think it's a good tell. But Haschel isn't even doing anything hard to fake.. just a few questions here and there???
Anyway back to nikk, I figured if I kept my vote on him for a while longer it may prompt him to post sooner, so I'm holding off on voting gamma. How do you know he didn't read his PM?

As someone who is advocating being cautious and seeking explanations on seemingly obvious things I agree it was wrong of me to ignore Egix's FOS. The reason I did at the time was that it felt obvious from the context he meant that voting someone is suspecting them and he misused the term FOS, instead of someone getting it wrong because of lack of reading. I know he's new from the game I modded, it was conceivable he'd mix things up.

[BuJaber]

I won't speak for persivul, his point is different if I understood it correctly but to further elaborate my point, I think early scumtells are more reliable than early town tells. Because you're basing things on tone and gut primarily, like on how things sound, if it is coming from someone genuinenly interested in figuring things out or not. So it is easier to catch a 'slip' so to speak than it is to differentiate between an actual townie post and scum pretending to look for clues.

Later in the game it starts to change because there are actual events, posts, reads, and flips to react to.

[BuJaber]

What do you think of sashaddin?

[BuJaber]

He has three posts. Too early to say.

Then what was scummy about xwing's post?

[BuJaber]

Yes see there it is. Now you see it.

Xwing is awfully fencesitty in that post. Sashaddin's preceding post also. But sashaddin has been here since the start and posted a little more so I dunno I guess that puts him at a higher level of expectation for me.

I wanted to question why you chose xwing over him. Turned out your read on xwing was for a slightly different reason, except that now your latest post shows you actually picked up on the fencesitting.

VOTE: sashaddin

[BuJaber]

i will agree for now..


for me, naked votes are NAI this early too..


@gamma ^
what do you think?

Leaves room for backing out.

Nullread.

Not a read.

I can see Egix and Junko as town. Dann is giving me both feelings at once. As for the Gamma thing, I don't think I understand what's going on.

Maybe it's just the wording but doesn't sound that he's convinced they're townreads.
Nullread on dann.
Not a read.

@sasha - strongly agree on dann read

Strongly agrees on a nullread.

When picking between them I feel sasha is more deserving of the vote because I expect less from an entry post than a regular post from someone following along from the beginning.

Not that I'm excusing xwing but at least he/she can say he/she missed the real time context of being here. What's sasha's excuse?

[BuJaber]

Mhm, I think I found the scum from the xwing wagon, the way you care none for which of us is lynched tell me both are equal in your eyes. This also indicates xwing is town, which I wasn't sure of yet.

What does it indicate to you about sashaddin?

[BuJaber]

Mhm, I think I found the scum from the xwing wagon, the way you care none for which of us is lynched tell me both are equal in your eyes. This also indicates xwing is town, which I wasn't sure of yet.

What does it indicate to you about sashaddin?

Probably town too
Also noting Persivul is pushing the same logic but didn’t see fit to respond to my vote

You think Persivul is scum and choose to name only townies in his lynch pool?
What is your case on him exactly? I get you think there's scum on xwing but what makes you think it's persivul? He's one of the main players driving this game forward.


Slaxx how experienced are you?

[BuJaber]

Not even going to buy me dinner first?

Idk, 30 games maybe?

My apologies.

Just that you seem all over the place and your vote progression is awfully suspect considering you went from one side to another. (Percy scumreading both xwing and sasha and you switching between these 3 in the order that you did).

For xwing you claim her latest post made her look much better but what made you change your mind about sasha and what's scummy about persivul?

[BuJaber]

im not a fan of a scum!sasha anymore..

Why?

VOTE: Gamma

[BuJaber]

im not a fan of a scum!sasha anymore..

Why?

VOTE: Gamma

What did you think about my post on tchill?

You make some good points and I like that you are now posting well thought out reasoning with your vote.
For now I am more comfortable joining the gamma wagon considering who's voting whom.

[BuJaber]

im not a fan of a scum!sasha anymore..

Why?

VOTE: Gamma

You're note about BuJaber is interesting though. BuJaber, you still scum read Sashaddin, yea? Why did you move to the Gamma wagon?

Sasha had 2 votes on him. Xwing unvoted left me alone. Nobody else seemed really interested in joining. It was a good time to pick one of the leading wagons. Haschel made good points against gamma, a player I already suspected, so I voted for gamma.

[BuJaber]

@slaxx - because while your posting has improved you're still not a townread for me. I'm also a little suspicious of egix, tchill, and xwing. Like at best they're null. As opposed to dann and haschel and junko on the gamma wagon who have been more townie.

[BuJaber]

I don't have time to quote and match up evidence to your post but your case on me is rediculous rooster.

A fair number of posts/things you don't like are playstyle things. I'm not interested in making people play like robots. I have never said I wanted that. In fact anyone who knows me knows that one of the things I enjoy about mafia is the different playstyles. But when I talk about how things should be etc, it's about what a townie's motivation behind their actions should be like not that they need to do it exactly the same way I do.

I have explicitly stated at least 5 reads (gamma, slaxx, xwing, dann, haschel) that I remember, and probably more if I go back and reread.

Also slaxx was a bigger scumread than xwing so I don't know why you said I voted for the person I suspected less, but even if I did, did you not do exactly that yourself? Why is it okay for you but not me?

[BuJaber]

Sorry I meant sashaddin not slaxx in the above ^

[BuJaber]

@Dann - your case on me ignores that my posts are explaining reasoning behind my reads. It also assumes that I am scum and that gamma is town before it begins to analyze the wagons and not after.
There is no reasonable reason to think that gamma was actually a counterwagon to tchill. Tchill votes piled up far too quickly for a typical day 1. I was unsure on what that meant. Gamma who was my top scumread early on was not posting and engaging with me so I had no reason to change my vote before getting a response. Also from my experience the first 1 or 2 wagons that get up there on day 1 always dissipate. I wanted to vote gamma so gamma responds to me and to see how others react, I doubt it would have even been hammered but it had to look like real pressure. And while waiting and trying to sort the nullslots I was talking to other scumreads like sasha and xwing.

You don't like how I sort what is scummy and what isn't you can give me your feedback after the game but let's not start changing the narrative of day 1 in hindsight. It's easy to call tchill scum after he flips. For me it is my first game with him, and from what I could tell he was pretty much just not posting much. Activity is not a reliable scumtell.

Sorry I wasn't on a wagon about to be hammered 4 days before deadline. I don't vote for people just cause others are.

What we should be looking at are the people that jumped on when it was looking like a done deal. That group will in all likelihood include scum bussing their partner.

See in the next post:

[BuJaber]

VC 1.09

votes

[3] xwing

:

rosterfoster (121), Egix96 (130), Tchill13 (133)

[3] Gamma Emerald

:

Haschel Cedricson (59), JunkoChan (85), Dannflor (253)

[3] Tchill13

:

Persivul (199), xwing (263), Slaxx (277)

[1] Persivul

:

Flubbernugget (187)

[1] Sashaddin

:

BuJaber (126)

[2] Not Voting

:

Sashaddin (213), Gamma Emerald (251)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

The Day 1 deadline is in

: (expired on 2019-01-30 01:15:00)

Mod Notes

:

Pretty even spread. Mainly RVS votes and early impressions. At this stage people start looking for ways to converge and go for lynches that can be hammered.

VC 1.10

votes

[5] Gamma Emerald

:

Haschel Cedricson (59), JunkoChan (85), Dannflor (253), BuJaber (281), Egix96 (286)

[3] Tchill13

:

Persivul (199), xwing (263), Slaxx (277)

[2] xwing

:

rosterfoster (121), Tchill13 (133)

[1] Persivul

:

Flubbernugget (187)

[2] Not Voting

:

Sashaddin (213), Gamma Emerald (251)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

The Day 1 deadline is in

: (expired on 2019-01-30 01:15:00)

Mod Notes

:

xwing is V/LA until Tuesday.

Gamma takes the early lead first, as someone not engaged in the game.

VC 1.11

votes

[4] Gamma Emerald

:

Haschel Cedricson (59), JunkoChan (85), BuJaber (281), Egix96 (286)

[4] Tchill13

:

Persivul (199), xwing (263), Slaxx (277), Flubbernugget (324)

[2] xwing

:

rosterfoster (121), Tchill13 (133)

[1] Sashaddin

:

Dannflor (312)

[2] Not Voting

:

Sashaddin (213), Gamma Emerald (251)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

The Day 1 deadline is in

: (expired on 2019-01-30 01:15:00)

Mod Notes

:

xwing is V/LA until Tuesday.

Gamma lynch seemingly hits its peak. Now scum will have to try to lynch someone else if they can, or bus their teammate.

VC 1.12

votes

[5] Tchill13

:

Persivul (199), xwing (263), Flubbernugget (324), Dannflor (328), JunkoChan (339)

[3] Gamma Emerald

:

Haschel Cedricson (59), BuJaber (281), Egix96 (286)

[1] xwing

:

Tchill13 (133)

[1] BuJaber

:

rosterfoster (338)

[3] Not Voting

:

Sashaddin (213), Gamma Emerald (251), Slaxx (342)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

The Day 1 deadline is in

: (expired on 2019-01-30 01:15:00)

Mod Notes

:

xwing is V/LA until Tuesday.

Slaxx hops off waiting for a claim. More votes pile on tchill.

VC 1.13

votes

[5] Tchill13

:

Persivul (199), xwing (263), Dannflor (328), JunkoChan (339), rosterfoster (365)

[3] Gamma Emerald

:

Haschel Cedricson (59), BuJaber (281), Egix96 (286)

[1] xwing

:

Tchill13 (133)

[1] JunkoChan

:

Sashaddin (374)

[3] Not Voting

:

Gamma Emerald (251), Slaxx (342), Flubbernugget (370)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

The Day 1 deadline is in

: (expired on 2019-01-30 01:15:00)

Mod Notes

:

xwing is V/LA until Tuesday.

VC 1.14 - A lynch has occurred!

votes

[7] Tchill13

:

Persivul (199), xwing (263), Dannflor (328), JunkoChan (339), rosterfoster (365), Egix96 (378), Slaxx (385)

[2] Gamma Emerald

:

Haschel Cedricson (59), BuJaber (281)

[1] xwing

:

Tchill13 (133)

[1] JunkoChan

:

Sashaddin (374)

[2] Not Voting

:

Gamma Emerald (251), Flubbernugget (370)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

The Day 1 deadline is in

: (expired on 2019-01-30 01:15:00)

Mod Notes

:

A lynch has occurred!

As we can see when dann voted for tchill, the votes really start to pile up. Slaxx was a bad nk for scum because the pool is actually smaller now. The bussing teammate is one of the voters, and most likely one of the later voters.

Junko / rooster / egix are the scummiest votes.

And I have never seen in my life a townie that builds up a huge case on their top scumread only to vote someone else before. So I don't understand your townread on rooster at all. It shows lack of conviction in his own case.

VOTE: rooster

I remember I had junko as a townlean and egix seems to be less erratic with his voting than he was in the game I modded where he was scum.

[BuJaber]

Flubber could also be scum here because he was the only one that voted for tchill but then unvoted.

[BuJaber]

What is it called when people intentionally change your name to belittle you?

Once I can dismiss as a typo, but it's been at least 3 times now by 2 different players.

[BuJaber]

Uhhh

You do realize I had all of two minutes to hammer after the claim right?

Not the point. You were on the wagon but unvoted to join an opposing wagon. I find that highly suspicious given the flip

[BuJaber]

This is far too early to even consider ending the day let alone posting intent. But whatever I'm VT.

Sasha was one of the scummiest in day 1. I didn't mention him as he wasn't on the wagon, and I think 1 scum would definitely be on the wagon so I was looking there first.

While a few people did post willingness to vote sasha that wagon never gained much traction, but then we had that early gamma wagon that went poof and xwing and tchill wagons started competing eventually leading to tchill. It is very possible we had a situation where scum wanted to move suspicion away from sasha, but their plan to save scum failed anyway when town lynched tchill.

And I think if sasha is scum then gamma and xwing become much more likely to flip town. I'm more convinced of scum joining a day 1 scum lynch wagon though based on past games so let's hunt for that scum first so we have more associations.

[BuJaber]

The vca and wagon analysis is additional info we now have, it's meaningless to ignore them now. I found slaxx scummy, but he flipped town for example. I think gamma is scummy but that doesn't fit if sashaddin is scum. You have my reads on day 1 in my day 1 posts. Those were pure of the additional info.

If you just want all the current reads in one post for clarity,

Town or townlean: {haschel, dann, persivul, junko}
Null but not scum if sasha is: {gamma, xwing}
Scum or scumlean: {sashaddin, roster, egix, flubber}

[BuJaber]

i think the buj wagon having no resistance at all is a red flag, so i want more time to discuss..can someone please unvote?

How easily the wagon was built means either two things:

A. We've got scum and his buddy Flubber is desperately trying to build a counterwagon on Sash.

B. Scum is completely content to let this lynch go through as it is an easy mislynch.

The real question is what lynch gives us the most information regardless of flip? A BuJaber lynch could implicate Roster or Flubber depending on the flip. Going after someone like Gamma at this point isn't really going to give us information to go on for Day 3.

Like, our pool of suspects is just rather low and I think BuJaber is both the scummiest slot and the one that gives us the most information. I still think we should keep discussion going for a while as it may help solidify a definite town bloc, but I don't really see a better lynch candidate than BuJaber

This is the kind of thinking I can really get behind if I weren't one of the lynchees.

Lynch roster, I think it's a really good lynch.

We can sort out the more nullish spots with the flip and any night info we might get.

VOTE: Rosterfoster

@mod:

I have to declare VLA I think. Normally my signature is sufficient because I can prodge but I am travelling. I'll be settled in at the hotel by sunday.

[BuJaber]

Respect is a two way street. Look in the mirror. Talk to yourself. Would you respect that person?

Roster can you post an opinion one time without waiting for support?

[BuJaber]

You entire ISO is a "DAE" meme.

[BuJaber]

Hol up why is Buj at L-1, I don’t recall a lot of people suspecting him?

Someone is pretty good at playing jester

What is this supposed to mean?

[BuJaber]

My respect comment was not targetted at you. For someone thinking I'm scummy you've been very polite.

My memory is that people already expressed interest in voting me before your case. Other than that posts like 574 come across like you waiting for someone else to give you the answer, and it wasn't your first post of this nature.

[BuJaber]

I wanted to show you some example but they're split up into too many posts.

Let me put it this way. You repeatedly post sentences like "BuJaber is scummy but there's not much support there" "oh you voted bujaber okay I can vote him now" "yay, I'm not crazy"

Even just on the previous page, you say you'll post a constructive post later, then as soon as persivul rallies people to vote me you post asking if 433 is scummy.

There is a pattern of seeking motivation from others to push in a certain direction that you claim you are strongly in favor of. But if it were something you strongly believed in you would not need this support.

[BuJaber]

This s the most silent mafia team I've read

I missed the pre-game.

I don't think flubber knew the thread was open during day 2.

[BuJaber]

It was probably for the best anyway. I'm on vacation and only logged on for a few minutes every day.

[BuJaber]

Actually I was jealous of tchill for dying first

[BuJaber]

Thanks for the game Mew. Beautiful pictures. I love winter themes.

[BuJaber]

Roster obviously I wanted to get you lynched so my motovation was impure but I'd recommend being a bit more forthcoming with your reads and reasons. One thing you can be sure of is people will be quick to tell you you're wrong. Be confident and post your thoughts from the get-go.

[BuJaber]

I don't think flubber knew the thread was open during day 2.

Yes, I probably should have prodded him on the PT being open on D2 since you PMed me the action so he didn't see it in the mafia PT. It might not have made too much of a difference, but who knows.

Also, thanks guys. I hope you enjoyed the game!

Yeah I thought of that but I wasn't sure if posting in thread would be accepted. I kinda followed the role PM literally.