Newbie 1913 - game over!!

[volxen]

VOTE: The Worst

@The Worst if you thought being the mod would stop me from voting for you during RVS, think again buddy.

Let's get a wagon going against TW!

[volxen]

Actually TW, your off the hook... for now. But I will be keeping a close eye on you.

VOTE: YellowSnow

Going to put my vote here because

green

is a better color than

yellow

.

[volxen]

Volxen. Im wondering how fast is your typing speed. It felt weird that transition from lynching the mod to starting a random vote. And it all happened in seven minutes. Why didnt you include both in same message or was that an afterthought. Or did you do that to seperate the joke from the real part. Still I find it a little fishy that that happened in seven minutes.

VOTE: volxen

Yes, I planned to do it that way (two separate posts made a few minutes apart) as part of the joke. And I do type fairly fast.

Given that it was a joke made in jest (because The Worst and I are friends and have played a fair amount of games together), why does the fact that the two posts were made seven minutes apart in particular stand out to you as weird or fishy?

[volxen]

I think akagami has good town cred for not voting despitr having like 4 ppl vote before them and itd be easy and tempting to just rvs someone as a wolf

Akagami wasn’t even supposed to post, since he was replaced by Roo (who did place an RVS vote). Nonetheless, why do you think Akagami’s slot deserves town credit for posting but not placing an RVS vote? Voting during the early game/RVS helps to move the game forward by generating discussion and allowing us to see how people respond to votes/pressure, and we ultimately have to lynch scum to win, so voting is a pro-town action. Just popping in to say “hi” doesn’t help to move the game forward. And why make the comment that “itd be easy and tempting to just rvs someone as a wolf”? Most people (regardless of alignment) vote for someone during RVS.

[volxen]

I think akagami has good town cred for not voting despitr having like 4 ppl vote before them and itd be easy and tempting to just rvs someone as a wolf

hey doubtingthomas, can i refer to you as DT?
i'll give a slight town lean on this slot, seems eager to solve..
dont agree with giving town cred on shanks for above..though it's very early in the game still..

Volxen. Im wondering how fast is your typing speed. It felt weird that transition from lynching the mod to starting a random vote. And it all happened in seven minutes. Why didnt you include both in same message or was that an afterthought. Or did you do that to seperate the joke from the real part. Still I find it a little fishy that that happened in seven minutes.

VOTE: volxen

hmmm..feels reachy, but meh..

VOTE: brass
let's wagon the IC..

Why vote for Brass and put him at three votes (L-2) on the second page of the game? Just because he is the IC?

[volxen]

I think akagami has good town cred for not voting despitr having like 4 ppl vote before them and itd be easy and tempting to just rvs someone as a wolf

hey doubtingthomas, can i refer to you as DT?
i'll give a slight town lean on this slot, seems eager to solve..
dont agree with giving town cred on shanks for above..though it's very early in the game still..

Volxen. Im wondering how fast is your typing speed. It felt weird that transition from lynching the mod to starting a random vote. And it all happened in seven minutes. Why didnt you include both in same message or was that an afterthought. Or did you do that to seperate the joke from the real part. Still I find it a little fishy that that happened in seven minutes.

VOTE: volxen

hmmm..feels reachy, but meh..

VOTE: brass
let's wagon the IC..

Also, why the townlean for DoubtingThomas specifically? Do you feel he is more eager to solve the game than everyone else who has posted so far?

[volxen]

I think akagami has good town cred for not voting despitr having like 4 ppl vote before them and itd be easy and tempting to just rvs someone as a wolf

Akagami wasn’t even supposed to post, since he was replaced by Roo (who did place an RVS vote). Nonetheless, why do you think Akagami’s slot deserves town credit for posting but not placing an RVS vote? Voting during the early game/RVS helps to move the game forward by generating discussion and allowing us to see how people respond to votes/pressure, and we ultimately have to lynch scum to win, so voting is a pro-town action. Just popping in to say “hi” doesn’t help to move the game forward. And why make the comment that “itd be easy and tempting to just rvs someone as a wolf”? Most people (regardless of alignment) vote for someone during RVS.

I already explained it.

He didn't vote when 4 people in front of him did.

As a wolf, your mindset naturally tends to be "I want to assimilate with the crowd (towns people who are not on your team)"

You see 4 people vote in front of you, you may

think

it's more natural to vote with them

the dude didn't

i think that comes from a townie mindset that wants to focus on themselves rather than be fake and "look" like they are townie

I just looked at Akagami’s profile, and while he has been on this site for a few months, this is actually the first game he has ever played in (though technically he wasn’t supposed to post because Roo had already replaced him). So it’s possible that he simply isn’t familiar with RVS and that’s why he made a “hi” post without voting for anyone. So I find his lack of voting during RVS to be NAI (not alignment-indicative).

I agree with you in the general sense that scum wants to blend in and try to look towny, but I don’t think that realistically translates to a lack of an RVS vote (after other people have already voted) being town-indicative just because it goes against the norm. Voting early on helps to generate discussion, which helps to move the game along faster and helps town to make a more informed lynch on day one. Not voting and just saying “hi” doesn’t advance the game, so it’s not really a pro-town action.

In any case, is it specifically the fact that he made that “hi” post without voting after five people had already voted that you find be towny? If he was the first person to post in the game, and if he had posted that same “hi” post without voting, would you still have found his lack of an RVS vote to be towny?

[volxen]

I find it unlikely that players would admit to liking to play scum.

Being a dangerous scum player would increase the likelyhood of being lynched on that basis alone

.

What you are referring to in the bolded portion amounts to a policy lynch, which in general is anti-town unless there is a really, really good reason for doing so. Lynching someone solely on the basis that, if they are scum in the current ongoing game they are going to be really dangerous (based on their performance in previous scumgames), even if they haven't been scummy in the current ongoing game, is incredibly anti-town because they would be lynched over fear of how good they are at scum rather than because people are actually scumreading them in the current ongoing game. That's definitely not how Mafia is intended to be played, and over the long term policy lynching someone just because they are good at scum will lead to mislynches more often than not because everyone rolls town much more frequently than they do scum.

And regarding the first sentence, yes people do admit to enjoying playing scum in their ongoing town games. For example, in Newbie 1900 (link to the game: viewtopic.php?f=50&t=77781) Flavor Leaf (who was town and also the IC) openly

bragged

about how good he is at scum (links to some sample posts: viewtopic.php?p=10562672#p10562672, viewtopic.php?p=10565874#p10565874, and viewtopic.php?p=10565878#p10565878).

[volxen]

Roo, you're being unusually quiet. Perhaps a little pressure on your wagon will get your tongue wagging.

VOTE: Roo

hey l8, what do you think of the rest of the player list?

Not a lot to go on yet. Still early in Day 1.

- Roo's still being pretty quiet despite having two votes on him. He also has a comfy spot on Brass' wagon.
- You haven't posted a whole lot either. And you have a similarly comfy position on Brass' wagon.
- DT has been more active but much of that has been fluff.
-

Volxen had an odd reaction to YellowSnow's suggestion that claiming to enjoy playing scum might make you more likely to be scum. YellowSnow's comment clearly wasn't a policy lynch, though I agree that it's a poor reason to suspect that somebody might be scum.

- YellowSnow has been pretty vocal and visible in his argument, so weak town lean.
- Brass has also been visible, but that's his job as IC regardless of alignment.
- Null on Heartstone and Saint.

All weak reads at the moment.

The real problem is that we have too many singleton wagons. No pressure from those.

Why was it an "odd" reaction? I was just explaining that some people do prefer to play scum and will be open about that fact even in games where they are town. As Brass pointed out, town/scum roles are assigned randomly, so someone who loves playing scum is still going to roll town in the vast majority of their games. So there really is no reason for people to not be honest about what alignment they prefer playing.

I, for example, really enjoy playing both town and scum, because I feel that playing both alignments helps me to grow more as a player as opposed to always playing the same alignment. For example, playing scum helps you to improve as a scumhunter (townie), because you start to pick up on more common (and advanced) scum tactics after employing them yourself firsthand. And playing town helps you to improve as scum, because it's fairly difficult to convincingly fake scumhunt and gamesolve unless you have experience doing the real thing.

In any case, based on what you wrote in post 91, it seems that you did agree with my overall argument, except for my usage of the phrase "policy lynch". If we are talking about something along the lines of, "Player X is a really good scum player, we should just auto lynch him today in case he is scum" -- that absolutely would meet the criteria of a policy lynch in my opinion, because it would be advocating a lynch on someone for the sole reason that they are good at scum -- not because of any evidence of them being scum in the current ongoing game. Maybe that wasn't exactly what Yellowstone had in mind with post 47, but in that post he talked about "dangerous scum being more likely to be lynched on that basis alone", which at a minimum is bordering on a policy lynch.

Is the only thing that you found "odd" about my reaction the fact that I used the phrase "policy lynch"?

[volxen]

Now if you want a decent reason for starting a wagon on Volxen how about the fact that he's an experienced player with only 9 posts in nearly 7 pages. Much of that is low content.

VOTE: Volxen

Volxen, why the silent treatment?

I wasn't able to post last night due to IRL reasons, but I'm back now. I will be posting more later after I re-read the last several pages, but why single me out specifically because I am an SE? If I had the same number of posts in 7 pages as a newbie slot, would that still have stuck out to you?

You voted for me because you presumably want me to post more and want to see more content from me. But you just asked me very generally, "why the silent treatment?". Do you have any specific questions for me?

[volxen]

What is backtracking?

Now if you want a decent reason for starting a wagon on Volxen how
about the fact that he's an experienced player with only 9 posts in nearly 7 pages. Much of that is low content.

VOTE: Volxen

Volxen, why the silent treatment?

Sounds like a good idea.

Would probably join in if I have nothing better to do

.

"Would probably join in if I have nothing better to do" -- what is that even supposed to mean exactly? What would be the "better" thing that would keep you from voting for me? It sounds like you don't really seem to care all that much who gets wagoned.

Is there anyone that stands out as more likely scum?

Right now, I'm waiting for volsen to talk, for saint, DT and yellow to answer the questions directed to them before I figure out what to think of them.

If I have any reads on them they are likely weak

.

VOTE: volsen

It's actually Vol

x

en (with an "x" rather than "s").

I'm a bit wary of the fact that you voted for me and at the same time said that "any reads I have are likely weak", because it comes across like you are potentially trying to give yourself an out/excuse in the event that you are on someone's wagon who gets mislynched and flips green.

In any case, L84Dnr gave his reason for voting for me. Do you have a reason of your own for voting for me, or are you just sheeping L84Dnr here?

[volxen]

@hearth:
to backtrack means to reverse your position on someone or something, but in a scummy/unnatural way..
also brass is right, drawing associations is far too early, i just combined my two biggest scum reads to make the scum team..hence saint-yellow..

@DT: this is important!!!
scum know who their fellow scum are, and they know everyone's alignment already..
they also have a private thread where they can communicate/interact at anytime (called daychat)..
what they dont know is who the town power roles (TPRs) are..
depending on the setup we are in though, they *may* have roles to find out who the PR is (e.g. mafia rolecop)..

i think DT may be town by virtue of townslip..

...What are you talking about? There are literally no townslips in any of DT's posts. And why are you telling DT all of this? He has been on this site for over 6 months and has played in several games, including multiple newbie games. So DT is well aware of all of the things that you are telling him here.

Please elaborate, because I don't understand why you directed all of that at DT.

[volxen]

@l8:
i feel like saint's got no original reasoning, mainly pushing what others have stated..
his first vote on hearth was echoing what i thought..
his second vote was on blank (not sure if it technically counted coz of the formatting, but the intent was there), who was inactive/site flaked..
his third vote on roo was echoing what others were saying..
he's not even engaging tried to engage them..
so his votes also feel opportunistic and just wanting a lynch instead of trying to sort..

For the most part I'm trying to figure out how forum mafia works honestly, as stated before I've only really played Town of Salem which is much more fast paced than this, trying to learn as I go. I'm not trying to lead for any lynching based on the fact that I'm not sure how well any scum reading I might be able to pick up would actually be.

Same here. I'm used to a 24 hour day cycle, which is much faster paced. Posting will help you with that.

Right now I have to agree with xwing.

VOTE: SaintAngelDFE

So tell us, what are your reads? On Day 1 they're always weak, so no worries there.

Right now? My reads are that xwing is likely town, he is jumping around a lot and searching from information.
Brass makes me nervous because he is experienced, I'm not sure I'm ready or even able to make an accurate claim on him yet.
The vote on Roo was more or less trying to see if he could have been trying to talk to other mafia before he responded?

But unfortunately the response he gave seemed genuine and not rushed. It was a reach and I should have voiced it.

I don't have too much of a read on Volxen based on similar issues as Brass, however I feel a little more sure that he's town.
Yellow is neutral to me, I'm not picking up on anything going either direction.
DoubtingThomas is talkative and definitely trying to push forward to get information, but he hasn't really pushed for any. I think that's suspicious, but like I said I'm still learning.

My suspects right now are between Volxen and DT. VOTE: volxen

So you voted for Roo essentially to see how he would react -- you thought he might have collaborated with his scumbuddy in the Mafia PT before responding to you. But then you go on to say that it was "unfortunate" that his response was genuine -- why is this "unfortunate"? If Roo is town and you were incorrectly scumreading him, why would it be "unfortunate" for him to respond in a towny/genuine way? If he is in fact town, wouldn't you want him to do/say something towny to help you get an accurate read of his slot? It sounds like you were expecting him to respond in a scummy way, and were disappointed when that didn't happen.

And others have already asked you about this, but I find your "slip up" here regarding my slot to be concerning. First you said that you were more sure about me being town than Brass. Then you wrote two sentences about why you are suspicious of DT, which was followed by you saying DT and I were your two suspects, followed by you voting for me.

Then when asked about this by other players, you made this post:

@l8:
i feel like saint's got no original reasoning, mainly pushing what others have stated..
his first vote on hearth was echoing what i thought..
his second vote was on blank (not sure if it technically counted coz of the formatting, but the intent was there), who was inactive/site flaked..
his third vote on roo was echoing what others were saying..
he's not even engaging tried to engage them..
so his votes also feel opportunistic and just wanting a lynch instead of trying to sort..

For the most part I'm trying to figure out how forum mafia works honestly, as stated before I've only really played Town of Salem which is much more fast paced than this, trying to learn as I go. I'm not trying to lead for any lynching based on the fact that I'm not sure how well any scum reading I might be able to pick up would actually be.

Same here. I'm used to a 24 hour day cycle, which is much faster paced. Posting will help you with that.

Right now I have to agree with xwing.

VOTE: SaintAngelDFE

So tell us, what are your reads? On Day 1 they're always weak, so no worries there.

Right now? My reads are that xwing is likely town, he is jumping around a lot and searching from information.
Brass makes me nervous because he is experienced, I'm not sure I'm ready or even able to make an accurate claim on him yet.
The vote on Roo was more or less trying to see if he could have been trying to talk to other mafia before he responded? But unfortunately the response he gave seemed genuine and not rushed. It was a reach and I should have voiced it.
I don't have too much of a read on Volxen based on similar issues as Brass, however I feel a little more sure that he's town.
Yellow is neutral to me, I'm not picking up on anything going either direction.
DoubtingThomas is talkative and definitely trying to push forward to get information, but he hasn't really pushed for any. I think that's suspicious, but like I said I'm still learning.

My suspects right now are between Volxen and DT. VOTE: volxen

Wait, Volxen you are more sure is town than me, and he's a top suspect?

Your reads don't match your vote, explain ASAP

My bad for the late response to this one - long day at work. I had been typing this in between a couple of meetings and must have honestly gotten mixed up while reading it back through, no real excuse as to why I added Volxen or voted him.

I need to start re-reading what I type, especially if I'm going to try and post while at work apparently. My only "scum read" is on DT honestly, but I'm not completely sure about Yellow or Brass still.


VOTE: DoubtingThomas

And it still isn't clear what you are claiming here. Are you saying that the only mistake you made was listing me as a scumread and voting for me, or are you saying that you didn't mean to mention me AT ALL in your previous post (141)? As in you didn't mean to say that you found me to be more towny than Brass?

Either way, it's concerning because either (1) you are town and just really, really botched up post 141 and your vote or (2) you are scum and made a legitimate scumslip. If you are town then I have to believe both of the following things:

(1) That even after you wrote two sentences talking about why DT is suspicious to you, and after you talked about how you found me more towny than Brass, you legitimately made a mistake in saying "my suspects are between DT and Volxen" and voting for me rather than DT.

(2) Based on your follow up in post 163, I also have to believe that you legitimately made a mistake in listing TWO different people as scumreads (DT and I) when you supposedly only have DT as a scumread. This makes it less believable. If you had followed up with "Oh, I meant <player X> instead of Volxen" in post 163, that would have at least been more consistent with what you previously wrote in post 141, where it clearly came across like you had two primary scum suspects (because you talked at length about DT but then didn't vote for him).

Basically, in short you wrote:

<explanation as to why you think DT is scum>. "My suspects are DT and Volxen". Vote for Volxen. (after previously listing me as a townread in the same post).

And you claim to have

intended

to wrote:

<explanation as to why you think DT is scum>. "My only suspect is DT". Vote for DT. (with it still being unclear whether you intended to list me as a townread here).

What troubles me about all of this is that if you are scum, everything you are doing is fake, including your reads, so it makes sense that could mess up your reads/vote like this (since it would all be fake anyways if you are scum). If you are town then you really,

really

botched up that entire post (141) along with your vote. So why is this more likely to be an honest mistake from town!Saint rather than a scumslip from scum!Saint?

[volxen]

...What are you talking about? There are literally no townslips in any of DT's posts. And why are you telling DT all of this? He has been on this site for over 6 months and has played in several games, including multiple newbie games. So DT is well aware of all of the things that you are telling him here.

Please elaborate, because I don't understand why you directed all of that at DT.

well, he didnt know how to properly read the vote count.. 159
i dont check player profiles and metas so i didnt notice his join date and all..it just seemed to me that he's new..
also, i misread his wall posts, i thought he put that "as scum, you have to find other scum" (paraphrased) so it seemed like a townslip to me since scum have daychat and know everyone's alignments..
also, what are your reads? please dont make me ask you the fourth time..

I don't have definitive reads on everyone yet. At the moment I am quite suspicious of Saint based on what I wrote in post 218. Be rest assured I will share my reads as I start to develop more definitive reads on other slots.

I am town this game, but can you tell me why you are townreading me?

[volxen]

Tl;dr If I am not DT but I know DT's meta and history, I would put him at very slight scum lean to generate reaction to help myself understand his alignment a little more while keeping in mind he is actually null. I would be slightly annoyed that he is not playing to his usual self because no matter what that is that is negative for town and hope that he will start playing. As of now, he isn't one of my main scum suspects tbh

Are you talking about yourself in the third person and reading yourself.

This is why I also hate walls, if you can say something in fewer words, say it that way, this post in general is too hard to follow and I have no clue what you are trying to say.

I think this post is extremely bad in a scummy way

First problem

He attacks the post which was merely an ANSWER to another player's question

Second problem

I see really no point of making this post at all.
He's asking a very simple question that can be kinda inferred to (that I made this post in a third person way) but also at the same time, the question itself doesn't contribute to ANY scum hunting at all. The answer to whether or not I wrote the post in a third person does not help brass know my alignment at all.

Third problem

Then he goes on to attack my post in a way that's NAI and kinda pointless to point out. That "he hates walls" again which is his opinion, and he is free to express it. However, by expressing this opinion along with a pointless question he asked above, he is literally contributing nothing to the thread but still commenting on a post which was not directed towards him at all.

I think him giving out a negative opinion about the post which is not about the content of the post and how that may be townish/scummish of me is usually how scums tend to try to

shade

other players.

Overall, this post has 3 things I hate so much

- Belittling a post in a very indirect yet meaningless way
- Using that negative factor of the post to attack my slot/give a negative impression to others about me
- While in actuality if you look into this post, he contributed absolutely nothing. He did not enhance a conversation between me and him nor gave any useful analysis wrt my post

Furthermore, I think his complaint about how "he hates long post" and "if you have a succinct way of say something, say it in a simpler way" is just kinda really bad approach to the game

I can understand disliking long posts and I am sorry if you think that it makes the point I am trying to get across to be lost in the middle of it, but I make long posts because I tend to get on a tangent and write about all the thoughts I have in the process. To partly show a transparent thought process I have. This way, I can show others how/why I felt/thought abotu something in a certain way and discuss about it with them. Which will help me understand the other person's alignment better

You can dislike long posts and hate my post for not getting straight to the point, but I feel pretty strongly about this.

At the same time, I now think it's

REALLY SCUMMY

for you to just attack my post based on the fact that it's a long post and I didn't get my point across with it. rather than talking/expressing about how that makes me townie/scummy nor actually trying to ask me questions about the confusion you have with the post.

Because if you are town, you should be curious about the confusion you have. You express that you did not understand my post completely, but really don't ask a legit question that will help your clarification. Rather, you focus on how that makes my posting bad. Again, I think that comes from a scummy agenda that you want to give others the impression that I am posting badly.

I believe you are scum here, sir.

VOTE: Brass

@DT, do you think it's possible that you are just really, really overreacting to Brass's post here? It seems far-fetched to me that you would have such a strong scumread of Brass over this one post that you quoted from him. And I also don't interpret Brass's post as saying "you should NEVER make a wallpost" -- I think he is just trying to say that if you can explain something succinctly, that you should do so rather than making the post longer than it needs to be. I don't think he's trying to say that you should literally never, ever make a wallpost.

[volxen]

@DoubtingThomas, can you get back to me on this?

I think akagami has good town cred for not voting despitr having like 4 ppl vote before them and itd be easy and tempting to just rvs someone as a wolf

Akagami wasn’t even supposed to post, since he was replaced by Roo (who did place an RVS vote). Nonetheless, why do you think Akagami’s slot deserves town credit for posting but not placing an RVS vote? Voting during the early game/RVS helps to move the game forward by generating discussion and allowing us to see how people respond to votes/pressure, and we ultimately have to lynch scum to win, so voting is a pro-town action. Just popping in to say “hi” doesn’t help to move the game forward. And why make the comment that “itd be easy and tempting to just rvs someone as a wolf”? Most people (regardless of alignment) vote for someone during RVS.

I already explained it.

He didn't vote when 4 people in front of him did.

As a wolf, your mindset naturally tends to be "I want to assimilate with the crowd (towns people who are not on your team)"

You see 4 people vote in front of you, you may

think

it's more natural to vote with them

the dude didn't

i think that comes from a townie mindset that wants to focus on themselves rather than be fake and "look" like they are townie

I just looked at Akagami’s profile, and while he has been on this site for a few months, this is actually the first game he has ever played in (though technically he wasn’t supposed to post because Roo had already replaced him). So it’s possible that he simply isn’t familiar with RVS and that’s why he made a “hi” post without voting for anyone. So I find his lack of voting during RVS to be NAI (not alignment-indicative).

I agree with you in the general sense that scum wants to blend in and try to look towny, but I don’t think that realistically translates to a lack of an RVS vote (after other people have already voted) being town-indicative just because it goes against the norm. Voting early on helps to generate discussion, which helps to move the game along faster and helps town to make a more informed lynch on day one. Not voting and just saying “hi” doesn’t advance the game, so it’s not really a pro-town action.

In any case, is it specifically the fact that he made that “hi” post without voting after five people had already voted that you find be towny? If he was the first person to post in the game, and if he had posted that same “hi” post without voting, would you still have found his lack of an RVS vote to be towny?

[volxen]

My bad for the late response to this one - long day at work. I had been typing this in between a couple of meetings and must have honestly gotten mixed up while reading it back through, no real excuse as to why I added Volxen or voted him.

I need to start re-reading what I type, especially if I'm going to try and post while at work apparently. My only "scum read" is on DT honestly, but I'm not completely sure about Yellow or Brass still.

sorry saint, im not sold on your explanation..
if it was a mistype or mix up, then you should had have just one scum read and not two?
also, DT and volxen are waaaay too distinct from each other to have them mixed up..
lastly, your reads are almost all null or back tracking..
like what's your case on DT? he's "pushing forward for info but then not really pushing"? i dont get what you're saying..

I have no particular excuse outside of repeating the fact that I had meetings in between typing my post, my mind was in two different places. It was likely that I had meant to include Yellow at the time instead of Volxen and merely gotten mixed up, but I'm not completely sure at this point.

My read on DT was just that he is essentially beating around the bush, he wants information but at the time he hadn't particularly pushed on anyone like others have. Reading posts since then I want to say that his wall of text was either him getting too "into character" or an attempt at misdirection of some sort, I'm not sure how to read that one yet.

Volxen, as for your referencing me calling it "unfortunate" that Roo's answer seemed genuine and unrushed, I only called in unfortunate because my attempt at getting a read ended in nothing more than "Possible town." I understand that this can be seen as a good thing, but our goal here is to figure out who is scum, so in my opinion while a town read is helpful it was not what I was hoping for in the long run, as it would have been more fortunate to get a possible scum read, at least short-term.

When you say that you meant to include Yellow instead of me, are you saying that you meant to say, "Yellow is more towny than Brass" rather than "Volxen is more towny than Brass"? And you meant to list

ONLY

DT as a suspect and vote for him? And my name wasn't supposed to be mentioned at all in your post?

And regarding who you suspect, I know you are saying you primarily suspect DT the most at the moment. But I would like to know what you think about the wagons against you -- you have gotten up to L-2 (3 votes) two different times:

vote count 1.08

hearthstone1235 (0) :
YellowSnow (1) : volxen
L84Dnr (0) :
DoubtingThomas (0) :
Roo (1) : YellowSnow

SaintAngelDFE (3) : xwing, Roo, L84Dnr

volxen (1) : SaintAngelDFE
xwing (0) :
brassherald (1) : DoubtingThomas

not voting: brassherald, hearthstone1235

with 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

day one will end automatically in (expired on 2019-01-30 14:00:00) or sooner if a lynch is achieved by majority.


mod notes:
- prodding DoubtingThomas
- xwing regular v/la over weekends
- quack

vote count 1.10

hearthstone1235 (0) :
YellowSnow (1) : volxen
L84Dnr (0) :
DoubtingThomas (1) : SaintAngelDFE
Roo (1) : YellowSnow

SaintAngelDFE (3) : xwing, Roo, brassherald

volxen (2) : L84Dnr, hearthstone1235
xwing (0) :
brassherald (1) : DoubtingThomas

not voting:

with 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

day one will end automatically in (expired on 2019-01-30 14:00:00) or sooner if a lynch is achieved by majority.


mod notes:
- xwing regular v/la over weekends
- quack

So your first L-2 wagon was {xwing, Roo, L84Dnr} and your second L-2 wagon is {xwing, Roo, brassherald}. And for all intents and purposes you were effectively at L-1 for a period of time, because Brass wanted to vote for you while L84Dnr was still voting for you, and the only reason he didn't vote for you at that time is because he didn't want to put you up to L-1:

I'm going to use my Finger of Suspicion on Saint at this point, if it wasn't obvious, I do not want to put to L-1 without a response this early, but I'm not sure much can be said that fixes that comment I asked about earlier.

So what are your thoughts on the players that have been on your wagon(s) -- meaning {xwing, Roo, L84Dnr, brassherald}? Do you believe there is scum among them, and if so, who do you think is the most likely scum to have been on your wagon(s)? Or do you believe that all of them are town?

[volxen]

Volxen, as for your referencing me calling it "unfortunate" that Roo's answer seemed genuine and unrushed,

I only called in unfortunate because my

attempt

at getting a read ended in nothing more than "Possible town."

I understand that this can be seen as a good thing, but our goal here is to figure out who is scum, so in my opinion while a town read is helpful it was not what I was hoping for in the long run, as it would have been more fortunate to get a possible scum read, at least short-term.

Volxen, what do you think of this response? the bolded part gives me slight town vibes because town is pressured to find scum.

Though I'm a little confused on what he means by long run and short-term. @Saint, can you elaborate on that a little bit?


Anyway, I'd appreciate a little more pressure on YellowSnow for now. VOTE: YellowSnow. Would like to hear his answers and reactions to what have been said. Also, @Yellow, what do you think of Saint?

@Hearth, yes, Saint's response did give me some town vibes, and has caused me to be less certain that he is scum. This is why I've been engaging with him but haven't voted for him and placed him at L-1. This is Saint's very first game on site (he registered on 1/14/19), and what I would normally expect from newb!scum in this scenario is to take the "easy" route, which in this case would be Saint doubling down on his initial Roo scumread. Especially since Roo has been on Saint's wagon for some time, the "easy" route for scum!Saint would be to scumpaint Roo as the scum on his wagon. Instead, Saint admitted that when he took a deeper look at Roo's slot, all he could come up with is "probably town". Now, more advanced and experienced scum can and do fake re-evaluate their reads like this, because re-evaluating reads is something townies regularly do, and if done right it can be used as a tactic by scum to make themselves look more towny. However, this is not something I would expect from a brand new scum player in their first game on site, so unless Saint is being heavily coached on how to write his posts by a much more experienced scumbuddy, he was most likely being sincere in sharing his "disappointment" that his re-evaluation of Roo's slot led him to the conclusion that Roo is town.

And if Saint is scum and was coached on fake re-evaluating his read of Roo, I think that same scumbuddy would have also coached Saint on how to “fix” his botched up post 141. Instead, in post 247 (his second follow-up post to post 141) he claims to *still* not be sure what he meant to write in post 141 (for example, he talks about how he think he might have meant to replace my name with Yellowsnow's name, but he isn’t sure about this).

@l8:
i feel like saint's got no original reasoning, mainly pushing what others have stated..
his first vote on hearth was echoing what i thought..
his second vote was on blank (not sure if it technically counted coz of the formatting, but the intent was there), who was inactive/site flaked..
his third vote on roo was echoing what others were saying..
he's not even engaging tried to engage them..
so his votes also feel opportunistic and just wanting a lynch instead of trying to sort..

For the most part I'm trying to figure out how forum mafia works honestly, as stated before I've only really played Town of Salem which is much more fast paced than this, trying to learn as I go. I'm not trying to lead for any lynching based on the fact that I'm not sure how well any scum reading I might be able to pick up would actually be.

Same here. I'm used to a 24 hour day cycle, which is much faster paced. Posting will help you with that.

Right now I have to agree with xwing.

VOTE: SaintAngelDFE

So tell us, what are your reads? On Day 1 they're always weak, so no worries there.

Right now? My reads are that xwing is likely town, he is jumping around a lot and searching from information.
Brass makes me nervous because he is experienced, I'm not sure I'm ready or even able to make an accurate claim on him yet.
The vote on Roo was more or less trying to see if he could have been trying to talk to other mafia before he responded? But unfortunately the response he gave seemed genuine and not rushed. It was a reach and I should have voiced it.
I don't have too much of a read on Volxen based on similar issues as Brass, however I feel a little more sure that he's town.
Yellow is neutral to me, I'm not picking up on anything going either direction.
DoubtingThomas is talkative and definitely trying to push forward to get information, but he hasn't really pushed for any. I think that's suspicious, but like I said I'm still learning.

My suspects right now are between Volxen and DT. VOTE: volxen

@l8:
i feel like saint's got no original reasoning, mainly pushing what others have stated..
his first vote on hearth was echoing what i thought..
his second vote was on blank (not sure if it technically counted coz of the formatting, but the intent was there), who was inactive/site flaked..
his third vote on roo was echoing what others were saying..
he's not even engaging tried to engage them..
so his votes also feel opportunistic and just wanting a lynch instead of trying to sort..

For the most part I'm trying to figure out how forum mafia works honestly, as stated before I've only really played Town of Salem which is much more fast paced than this, trying to learn as I go. I'm not trying to lead for any lynching based on the fact that I'm not sure how well any scum reading I might be able to pick up would actually be.

Same here. I'm used to a 24 hour day cycle, which is much faster paced. Posting will help you with that.

Right now I have to agree with xwing.

VOTE: SaintAngelDFE

So tell us, what are your reads? On Day 1 they're always weak, so no worries there.

Right now? My reads are that xwing is likely town, he is jumping around a lot and searching from information.
Brass makes me nervous because he is experienced, I'm not sure I'm ready or even able to make an accurate claim on him yet.
The vote on Roo was more or less trying to see if he could have been trying to talk to other mafia before he responded? But unfortunately the response he gave seemed genuine and not rushed. It was a reach and I should have voiced it.
I don't have too much of a read on Volxen based on similar issues as Brass, however I feel a little more sure that he's town.
Yellow is neutral to me, I'm not picking up on anything going either direction.
DoubtingThomas is talkative and definitely trying to push forward to get information, but he hasn't really pushed for any. I think that's suspicious, but like I said I'm still learning.

My suspects right now are between Volxen and DT. VOTE: volxen

Wait, Volxen you are more sure is town than me, and he's a top suspect?

Your reads don't match your vote, explain ASAP

My bad for the late response to this one - long day at work. I had been typing this in between a couple of meetings and must have honestly gotten mixed up while reading it back through, no real excuse as to why I added Volxen or voted him.

I need to start re-reading what I type, especially if I'm going to try and post while at work apparently. My only "scum read" is on DT honestly, but I'm not completely sure about Yellow or Brass still.


VOTE: DoubtingThomas

My bad for the late response to this one - long day at work. I had been typing this in between a couple of meetings and must have honestly gotten mixed up while reading it back through, no real excuse as to why I added Volxen or voted him.

I need to start re-reading what I type, especially if I'm going to try and post while at work apparently. My only "scum read" is on DT honestly, but I'm not completely sure about Yellow or Brass still.

sorry saint, im not sold on your explanation..
if it was a mistype or mix up, then you should had have just one scum read and not two?
also, DT and volxen are waaaay too distinct from each other to have them mixed up..
lastly, your reads are almost all null or back tracking..
like what's your case on DT? he's "pushing forward for info but then not really pushing"? i dont get what you're saying..

I have no particular excuse outside of repeating the fact that I had meetings in between typing my post, my mind was in two different places.

It was likely that I had meant to include Yellow at the time instead of Volxen and merely gotten mixed up, but I'm not completely sure at this point

.

My read on DT was just that he is essentially beating around the bush, he wants information but at the time he hadn't particularly pushed on anyone like others have. Reading posts since then I want to say that his wall of text was either him getting too "into character" or an attempt at misdirection of some sort, I'm not sure how to read that one yet.

Volxen, as for your referencing me calling it "unfortunate" that Roo's answer seemed genuine and unrushed, I only called in unfortunate because my attempt at getting a read ended in nothing more than "Possible town." I understand that this can be seen as a good thing, but our goal here is to figure out who is scum, so in my opinion while a town read is helpful it was not what I was hoping for in the long run, as it would have been more fortunate to get a possible scum read, at least short-term.

I would think that newb!scum Saint would be pretty panicked over how badly he botched up post 141, and his scumbuddy would have helped him come up with a detailed response to account for all of the errors he made in that post. So the fact that he is still claiming he isn’t really sure what he meant to write in post 141 is more likely to come from newb!town Saint rather than newb!scum Saint.

[volxen]

@Volxen, do people really get friends to coach them in matches? That kind of defeats the purpose of a learning curve in my eyes. The most I've ever gotten were stories and a small explanation on the difference between this game and Town of Salem (Not including the duration, that much was obvious) and then basically told the only way I'll really learn is by playing.

To be clear, getting coached by someone

OUTSIDE

of the game is always against MafiaScum rules -- you cannot talk about ongoing games outside of the game thread. So when I was talking about coaching, I was talking about one scum coaching another scum in the Mafia PT. As town, you cannot really coach someone else or be coached yourself, since the only people you can talk about the game with are the other players in the game, and you aren't 100% certain of anyone else's alignment until they flip or become confirmed town (cop clear, etc.).*

*In newbie games at least, this is always the case. Outside of newbie games, hydras are allowed in some game setups (where multiple people play on the same account), and some game setups have roles like masons (where multiple townies are aware of each other being town and have a PT to communicate in with each other). So outside of newbie games it is possible to be "coached" as town by someone else you know for sure is town (e.g., your hydra partner(s) or a fellow Mason), but in newbie games when people talk about "coaching" it's almost always referring to a more experienced scum helping a lesser experienced scumbuddy in the Mafia PT.

So in short, what I was saying is that since you are a brand new player on this site, the way you have been posting recently is not consistent with what I would expect if you were scum in this game and had a more experienced scumbuddy coaching you in the Mafia PT.

[volxen]

I'm not going to reply because I've been voted on. Ask nicely and maybe I'll respond.

What is the town motivation with this kind of a response? Asking someone to unvote you because you don't like the fact that they are pressuring you is unlikely to get you what you want. If you are town, you should have a vested interest in engaging with the people who are voting for you, regardless of whether they are town or scum. If you're being voted by a fellow townie you should take that to mean that they are genuinely scumreading you, and you should want to get to the bottom of

why

they are scumreading you, and then convince them that you are town. You can start doing this by engaging with them and answering their questions and asking any questions of your own that you may have. If you are being voted by scum, that likely means they think you are a good mislynch candidate, and the more you engage with them in a back-and-forth conversation, the more likely they will be to slip up and reveal their true alignment. So either way, you have no excuse to not engage with and answer the questions being asked of you by the people voting for you.

[volxen]

I don't feel comfortable lynching the IC on the first day unless they make a major blunder, let's put it that way.

The IC could help other new players perform better and help town win the game.

@yellow:
okay..but we do have SEs who can help out with this as well..so that shouldn't be so concerning? besides, day1 lasts like 10 days so the IC can dish out a lot of info by then, dont you think?

Maybe I just consider myself a reasonably nice guy. The IC is doing the game a favor, I think I can do him a favor by not lyching him the first sign of trouble.

I find these quotes concerning, especially the last one where you link "not lynching the IC" with being a "reasonably nice guy" and talk about "doing Brass a favor" because he is doing this game a favor by being the IC. Brass should receive absolutely no special treatment or consideration just because he is the IC. If you are town you should be evaluating his slot just as critically as everyone else's slot. I don't even like buzzwords like "LAMIST" (for our newer players see: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... reviations), but that's what these posts come across as to me, like you are trying to make yourself

look

towny by repeatedly saying that the IC should not be lynched on day one.

And also @Yellow, why is this the first game where you repeatedly want to give special treatment/consideration to the IC? I looked through your ISO in two of your previous towngames (Newbie 1906 and Newbie 1910), and you never once mentioned anything about giving the IC special treatment or consideration on day one or at any point in the game:

Link to Newbie 1906: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=78044

Link to Yellowsnow's ISO in the game: viewtopic.php?p=10608392&user_select%5B ... #p10608392

In this game Micc was the IC (and he was scum), but you didn't have him as a scumread on day one, and you were scumreading Child over Micc on day two (Micc was lynched on day two). You never once brought up Micc’s IC status with respect to how you were reading his slot or whether he should or should not be lynched.

Link to Newbie 1910: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=78203

Link to Yellowsnow's ISO in the game: viewtopic.php?p=10636095&user_select%5B ... #p10636095

In this game The Worst was the IC (and he was town), and you had TW as a townread on day one (TW was nightkilled on night one). You never once brought up TW’s IC status with respect to how you were reading his slot or whether he should or should not be lynched.

So why put so much emphasis on Brass being the IC in this game? Why not treat him the same as everyone else, just like you did with the IC slots in Newbie 1906 and Newbie 1910?

[volxen]

I still do not like how Saint is hedging his bets by claiming he can't get a read on me, but also heavily implying he's scum reading me. I feel like his reads on my slot are fully setting up that he's going to use these to be opportunistic and join a wagon if a real one pops up.

He's my top suspect still, did not like his answer to why he voted incorrectly before, and I'm not liking this "newer player who's so intimidated" act

@Brass, frankly I'm much more concerned with the way Yellowsnow has treated your slot vs how Saint has treated your slot. Yes, Saint has been fairly non-committal on how he is reading your slot, and both Saint and Yellowsnow have brought up the fact that you are the IC. But this is Saint's very first game on site, so I could see why newb!town Saint would be intimidated to push you, even if he has gotten scum pings from you (which I'm not sure that he has). I can also see Saint being genuinely null on your slot. Yellowsnow, on the other hand, has been on this site for almost 2 months now and has multiple completed games under his belt, so it's less believable that town!Yellowsnow would put so much stock into you being IC, to the point where he thinks you should be immune to being lynched at least on day one anyways. If anything, this kind of "special treatment" towards the IC slot is something I might expect from someone in their first game. Not from someone who has multiple completed games under their belt, especially when Yellowsnow has

NOT

treated the IC slot like this in any of his previous towngames.

Are you concerned at all that Yellowsnow may be trying to hard pocket/buddy you?

[volxen]

@Volxen Thanks for posting those links to Newbie 1906 and 1910.

@Brass What's the rules on posting/quoting/linking material from previous games for meta?

I'm seeing some startling contrast between his post 266 and the ISO that Volxen linked from Newbie 1906.

You can post/quote/link anything from a previous game as long as the game is completed. Newbie 1906 and Newbie 1910 are both completed games, so you can refer to anything from either of those games.

[volxen]

I don't care if I'm lynched

. I'm pretty sure there is scum on my wagon so town wins either way. I'll get a reads list done tomorrow.

You really shouldn't be looking at things like this if you are town. In this setup, town can only afford to have two mislynches, and loses on the third mislynch. So if we mislynch you today, then that's already half of the mislynches we can have.

So if you are town, you should be defending yourself. Do you understand why people are scumreading you? There are several points/questions that have been brought up that you have not addressed. Four people are on your wagon, and Roo has given intent to hammer. Out of these five players, at least three of them are town. So why not try to appeal to and work with the townies on your wagon?

A readlist is fine, but you need to address everything that has been brought up about you.

[volxen]

I'm being scumread because I'm busy and don't have the same amount of time everyone else has evidently

. Also I was signed up for a game I didn't intend to sign up for.

OK, that is completely inaccurate though. This isn't about how frequently you are posting. The reasons why people are scumreading you are summarized on pages 11 - 13.

[volxen]

hey guys, im back from vacation..
im still fine with either a yellow or saint lynch, and im still suspecting DT/BlurryX slot..
i mostly skimmed and didnt see any questions directed at me though, so lemme know if i missed any questions for me..
i agree that yellow's defeatist attitude is anti-town, but not too sure if it's town or scum indicative..meta points are towards scum yellow though..

I have a lot of concerns about DoubtingThomas's slot (now BlurryX's slot) as well. The three major things that really pinged me about DT were:

1) How he was so quick to give Akagami (Roo's predecessor) a "good amount of town credit" for posting but not voting in RVS after five people had already voted. "Easy" townreads at the beginning of the game are a red flag for me, because I expect people to be more skeptical of everyone else, especially at such an early stage of the game where there is very little content. I questioned him about this and the first time he responded to me, but then I asked him follow-up questions about it which he never responded to. After he came back after his first prod he quoted and responded to some posts directed to him (and these posts came

AFTER

my post with the follow-up questions), but he never responded to my post, and I don't see how he could have missed my post given that he responded to posts that came after my post. I even re-quoted my post with the follow-up questions and posted them a second time, and he still never responded, so he may have just been trying to avoid the issue altogether:

I think akagami has good town cred for not voting despitr having like 4 ppl vote before them and itd be easy and tempting to just rvs someone as a wolf

Akagami wasn’t even supposed to post, since he was replaced by Roo (who did place an RVS vote). Nonetheless, why do you think Akagami’s slot deserves town credit for posting but not placing an RVS vote? Voting during the early game/RVS helps to move the game forward by generating discussion and allowing us to see how people respond to votes/pressure, and we ultimately have to lynch scum to win, so voting is a pro-town action. Just popping in to say “hi” doesn’t help to move the game forward. And why make the comment that “itd be easy and tempting to just rvs someone as a wolf”? Most people (regardless of alignment) vote for someone during RVS.

I already explained it.

He didn't vote when 4 people in front of him did.

As a wolf, your mindset naturally tends to be "I want to assimilate with the crowd (towns people who are not on your team)"

You see 4 people vote in front of you, you may

think

it's more natural to vote with them

the dude didn't

i think that comes from a townie mindset that wants to focus on themselves rather than be fake and "look" like they are townie

I just looked at Akagami’s profile, and while he has been on this site for a few months, this is actually the first game he has ever played in (though technically he wasn’t supposed to post because Roo had already replaced him). So it’s possible that he simply isn’t familiar with RVS and that’s why he made a “hi” post without voting for anyone. So I find his lack of voting during RVS to be NAI (not alignment-indicative).

I agree with you in the general sense that scum wants to blend in and try to look towny, but I don’t think that realistically translates to a lack of an RVS vote (after other people have already voted) being town-indicative just because it goes against the norm. Voting early on helps to generate discussion, which helps to move the game along faster and helps town to make a more informed lynch on day one. Not voting and just saying “hi” doesn’t advance the game, so it’s not really a pro-town action.

In any case, is it specifically the fact that he made that “hi” post without voting after five people had already voted that you find be towny? If he was the first person to post in the game, and if he had posted that same “hi” post without voting, would you still have found his lack of an RVS vote to be towny?

@DoubtingThomas, can you get back to me on this?

I think akagami has good town cred for not voting despitr having like 4 ppl vote before them and itd be easy and tempting to just rvs someone as a wolf

Akagami wasn’t even supposed to post, since he was replaced by Roo (who did place an RVS vote). Nonetheless, why do you think Akagami’s slot deserves town credit for posting but not placing an RVS vote? Voting during the early game/RVS helps to move the game forward by generating discussion and allowing us to see how people respond to votes/pressure, and we ultimately have to lynch scum to win, so voting is a pro-town action. Just popping in to say “hi” doesn’t help to move the game forward. And why make the comment that “itd be easy and tempting to just rvs someone as a wolf”? Most people (regardless of alignment) vote for someone during RVS.

I already explained it.

He didn't vote when 4 people in front of him did.

As a wolf, your mindset naturally tends to be "I want to assimilate with the crowd (towns people who are not on your team)"

You see 4 people vote in front of you, you may

think

it's more natural to vote with them

the dude didn't

i think that comes from a townie mindset that wants to focus on themselves rather than be fake and "look" like they are townie

I just looked at Akagami’s profile, and while he has been on this site for a few months, this is actually the first game he has ever played in (though technically he wasn’t supposed to post because Roo had already replaced him). So it’s possible that he simply isn’t familiar with RVS and that’s why he made a “hi” post without voting for anyone. So I find his lack of voting during RVS to be NAI (not alignment-indicative).

I agree with you in the general sense that scum wants to blend in and try to look towny, but I don’t think that realistically translates to a lack of an RVS vote (after other people have already voted) being town-indicative just because it goes against the norm. Voting early on helps to generate discussion, which helps to move the game along faster and helps town to make a more informed lynch on day one. Not voting and just saying “hi” doesn’t advance the game, so it’s not really a pro-town action.

In any case, is it specifically the fact that he made that “hi” post without voting after five people had already voted that you find be towny? If he was the first person to post in the game, and if he had posted that same “hi” post without voting, would you still have found his lack of an RVS vote to be towny?

2) His whole... essay on self-meta, where he basically came to the conclusion that if he were another player in this game, he would "have a slight scumread on DT but really have DT as a nullread". The whole thing just looked like a roundabout way for him to try and make himself look towny, by giving the unexpected answer that he wouldn't be townreading himself if he were another player in the game:

@DoubtingThomas

Assuming you were another player in the game, would you scumread Doubtingthomas?

Would be nice if you addressed this:

Doubting Thomas is asking very general questions rather than pointed ones, that seems like being active lurking. I mean, there is a difference between asking someone what they think of the gamestate and what they think of a specific slot or a specific post. I feel like we are at the point where the questions should be specific rather than general. The questions just seem too easy.

Also, how about you? What are your thoughts on the game so far? What do you think of Roo and Volxen in particular?

I am going to be very honest with you, and this will probably seem very egotistical/over-confident and you will probably hate it and maybe use those personal feelings to scum read me but whatever

I am also going to be telling you the 100% truth and giving you this answer pretending I am another player who is completely aware of how DoubtingThomas works (well, because I am DoubtingThomas)

No, I won't for several reasons

Well, first, what brass has pointed out is very true. Asking 'general' question is an easy way for scums to make themselves

LOOK

like they are trying to solve. Brass makes an extremely good point that such questions are often >rand wolf for people, especially newer players.

He mentions also that asking "pin pointed" questions are beter than general questions. This is true. However, what he forgets is that good wolves will do townie things. Bad towns will do scummy things.

I am a pretty good wolf. Compared to my town game, I am a really good wolf. I have a pretty good win record as wolf (6-2? ish) and I have almost never been mislynched as a wolf (although I have been n1 vigged by towns two times by people who know my meta well)

The point brass is making is pretty good, and can generally be considered as kind of a "rule of thumb" especially in a newbie game like this one

But at the same time, if werewolf games were that easy, we won't have any good players right? Towns have done really dumb/anti-town things all the time. To the point where it is better for some of them to just kinda be policy lynched for being so bad.

I think I am going nowhere this pep talk. I have an issue always just rambling and talking abotu random shit that is unnecessary and that's why I don't do well in my job interviews.

Anyways, the point being, what Brass said is true to some extent. But it is not a good tell to one of the more experienced players.

Now let's go back to what I personally think about DT based on what I know.

DT has 9000 posts in a different website called Mafia Universe where he created the account mid-July of 2018. On record, he has about ~55 games played. A lot of them are turbos (which are very short 18min/6min mini games) and loves to play on 12hours/12hours phases or at the most 36/12hours phases. He subbed out of a lot of games on mafia scum when he joined a bunch couple months ago because the week long phases just was too much/boring for DT who likes to post a shitton

Given that, I think DT's overall performance here has been underwhelming for sure. However, I also know that DT

LOVES

to wolf. He loves to town too, but loves to wolf a lot more. He is also a far better wolf than town. What Brass has commented which is definitely lackluster of DT is never really a wolf tell for him. Rather, personally, I think it makes DT >rand town because he will high post and generate content as both alignment, quite frankly, but he will never be caught as a wolf for not really doing anything or trying to act fakely townie

DT will do what he does as town as a wolf. The questions he asks, the comments he make, the shitposts he writes, and the pushes he commits always come from the fact that he truly

BELIEVES

in (as a town) that or KNOWS THAT HE WILL BELIEVE it if he were town (as a wolf)

DT not posting any reads/pushes at the moment is slightly ping-y, but I am a little confused because he would have no problem just pushing people who are scummy or even if they are not scummy to see their reaction. His low content is also negative for town so I think he should start stepping his game up and start posting a lot more to carry town to the win.

Right now, I personally would list DT at "very slight scum lean" for low efforting, but secretly know that that is non alignment indicative for him and is only putting him at scum lean to see his reaction. He is a very omgus-y type of a player so that will generate reaction frmo him which will help you learn his alignment

Tl;dr If I am not DT but I know DT's meta and history, I would put him at very slight scum lean to generate reaction to help myself understand his alignment a little more while keeping in mind he is actually null. I would be slightly annoyed that he is not playing to his usual self because no matter what that is that is negative for town and hope that he will start playing. As of now, he isn't one of my main scum suspects tbh

3) His scum-case on Brass, which was based on one rather short post from Brass, seemed fairly over the top:

Tl;dr If I am not DT but I know DT's meta and history, I would put him at very slight scum lean to generate reaction to help myself understand his alignment a little more while keeping in mind he is actually null. I would be slightly annoyed that he is not playing to his usual self because no matter what that is that is negative for town and hope that he will start playing. As of now, he isn't one of my main scum suspects tbh

Are you talking about yourself in the third person and reading yourself.

This is why I also hate walls, if you can say something in fewer words, say it that way, this post in general is too hard to follow and I have no clue what you are trying to say.

I think this post is extremely bad in a scummy way

First problem

He attacks the post which was merely an ANSWER to another player's question

Second problem

I see really no point of making this post at all.
He's asking a very simple question that can be kinda inferred to (that I made this post in a third person way) but also at the same time, the question itself doesn't contribute to ANY scum hunting at all. The answer to whether or not I wrote the post in a third person does not help brass know my alignment at all.

Third problem

Then he goes on to attack my post in a way that's NAI and kinda pointless to point out. That "he hates walls" again which is his opinion, and he is free to express it. However, by expressing this opinion along with a pointless question he asked above, he is literally contributing nothing to the thread but still commenting on a post which was not directed towards him at all.

I think him giving out a negative opinion about the post which is not about the content of the post and how that may be townish/scummish of me is usually how scums tend to try to

shade

other players.

Overall, this post has 3 things I hate so much

- Belittling a post in a very indirect yet meaningless way
- Using that negative factor of the post to attack my slot/give a negative impression to others about me
- While in actuality if you look into this post, he contributed absolutely nothing. He did not enhance a conversation between me and him nor gave any useful analysis wrt my post

Furthermore, I think his complaint about how "he hates long post" and "if you have a succinct way of say something, say it in a simpler way" is just kinda really bad approach to the game

I can understand disliking long posts and I am sorry if you think that it makes the point I am trying to get across to be lost in the middle of it, but I make long posts because I tend to get on a tangent and write about all the thoughts I have in the process. To partly show a transparent thought process I have. This way, I can show others how/why I felt/thought abotu something in a certain way and discuss about it with them. Which will help me understand the other person's alignment better

You can dislike long posts and hate my post for not getting straight to the point, but I feel pretty strongly about this.

At the same time, I now think it's

REALLY SCUMMY

for you to just attack my post based on the fact that it's a long post and I didn't get my point across with it. rather than talking/expressing about how that makes me townie/scummy nor actually trying to ask me questions about the confusion you have with the post.

Because if you are town, you should be curious about the confusion you have. You express that you did not understand my post completely, but really don't ask a legit question that will help your clarification. Rather, you focus on how that makes my posting bad. Again, I think that comes from a scummy agenda that you want to give others the impression that I am posting badly.

I believe you are scum here, sir.

VOTE: Brass

In any case, DT is someone I definitely want to look at much more closely. I plan to reread through his entire ISO again, and look through some of his previous completed games to get a better idea of his meta. He has multiple completed towngames on this site (though he has replaced out of several games), and I need to get a better idea of what his town meta looks like because a lot of the things he has said/done in this game are questionable/sketchy from my perspective.

[volxen]

So, my NKA says, killing on the wagon means that scum was likely off the wagon yesterday... Unless somehow Hearthstone let slip that he was Dr. I don't see any crumbing in his ISO now that I look for it, but my rule of thumb right now is that I should likely reevaluate my reads unless someone finds something.

If anyone sees anything that hints at hearth being Doctor in his ISO let me know.

I'm going to re-read through Hearth's ISO again as well, as I want to know if his nightkill was to generate WIFOM or if it was because scum deduced that he was the doctor (or at least a town power role in general).

[volxen]

Ugg. These short wagons are a pain. I really prefer plurality voting over hammered votes.

UNVOTE:

I'm concerned by the NK. If one of the experienced players is scum then leaving the other two alive for cover makes sense.

VOTE: Volxen

Volxen, your ISO is thin with just 27 posts in 11 days. You placed all of a single vote during Day 1 and that was an RVS vote that you parked on YellowSnow in post 17 and left there. That'd be lurky for a n00b and as an SE I'm sure you know how to scum hunt better than that. Can you explain this behaviour?

I voted for Yellowsnow during RVS, and then he became my top suspect later on in the day after I cased him, so there was no reason for me to move my vote around at that point. I did come close to voting for Saint at one point, but as I pointed out in some of my posts, he said things that were giving me newb!town vibes, which was not the case with YellowSnow. I had (and still have) suspicions about the DT/BlurryX slot, but Yellowsnow was the person I suspected the most on day one. And while I did not move my vote around, I engaged a lot with people on day one, so why immediately latch onto the fact that I didn't move my vote around? And why directly tie that to scumhunting? I don’t have to move my vote around to keep up with scumhunting.

And I often times will have a smaller number of posts with more content (in some cases "wallposts"), rather than the "typical" way of playing this game, which is to have a lot of shorter posts. I feel I had a decent amount of content for day one, even if my post count wasn't high. I'm not understanding why post count in and of itself is so important to you, but it apparently is, so perhaps you can explain why?

Interesting how you have put your vote on me once again for the same reason that you did on day one: my post count in relation to the fact that I am an SE. In addition to that, you seem to be suggesting that the only possible explanation for Hearth’s nightkill is that SE(s) and/or IC have to be scum because scum wants to hide behind other experienced players. Why is that the only possible explanation? As I see it Hearth’s nightkill was either 1) to generate WIFOM/confusion or 2) because scum found something in Hearth’s ISO that indicated to them that he was the doctor, or at least that he was likely to be a town power role. Either way, I don’t see that kind of a nightkill as being beyond the scumrange of every non-SE/IC player here.

Other than expressing concerns that YellowSnow "might just be bad town", you didn't disagree with or question the case I presented against YellowSnow on day one; in fact you even extended my case by quoting posts from his Newbie 1906 game to show how he was being different in this game (refusing to answer questions) compared to Newbie 1906 (talking about the importance of being transparent as town). You fully supported my case and committed to pushing Yellowsnow. So if there was scum on YellowSnow's wagon -- and it is very likely that there was at least one scum on his wagon -- why am I the most likely person to be that on-wagon scum? Do you have reasons for scumreading me that go beyond 1) me not moving my vote around on day one and 2) my post count on day one?

[volxen]

So, my NKA says, killing on the wagon means that scum was likely off the wagon yesterday... Unless somehow Hearthstone let slip that he was Dr. I don't see any crumbing in his ISO now that I look for it, but my rule of thumb right now is that I should likely reevaluate my reads unless someone finds something.

If anyone sees anything that hints at hearth being Doctor in his ISO let me know.

Assuming Hearth was nightkilled to generate WIFOM rather than because scum deduced that he was the doctor, why do you think that suggests that both scum were off wagon? When a townie is mislynched, there is usually scum on the wagon. Especially on day one when five votes are required to pull off a lynch.

[volxen]

So, my NKA says, killing on the wagon means that scum was likely off the wagon yesterday... Unless somehow Hearthstone let slip that he was Dr. I don't see any crumbing in his ISO now that I look for it, but my rule of thumb right now is that I should likely reevaluate my reads unless someone finds something.

If anyone sees anything that hints at hearth being Doctor in his ISO let me know.

Actually @Brass, the more I think about it you are probably half-right -- the most likely combination here is that one scum was on Yellowsnow's wagon, and one scum was off wagon. I didn't find any compelling evidence of breadcrumbs in Hearth's ISO, and no one else has thus far either. So if both scum were on Hearth's wagon, they would have to be fairly bold/confident to nightkill someone else who was also on the wagon, because if we were to lynch from Yellowsnow's wagon today (and scum has to consider the possibility that we would do this), then that alone would give us a 50% chance of hitting scum, as it would mean that two out of {Volxen, L84Dnr, brassherald, Roo} would contain the entire scumteam. Because even if we mislynched in this scenario on day 2, assuming on night 2 scum didn't nightkill someone from Yellowsnow's wagon again, then that would mean on day 3 that 2/3 of the living players from Yellowsnow's wagon would contain the entire scumteam -- so we would have about a 67% chance of hitting scum on day 3 just by lynching from Yellowsnow's wagon again. I don't think scum would want to make such a risky play like that.

Thoughts on why scum didn't nightkill either you or xwing? I was expecting one of you two to be the nightkill. You're the IC, and xwing was by far the most universally townread player on day one. It does seem like Hearth was a suboptimal nightkill choice who just happened to be the doctor, as he was neither the most experienced nor the most townread player. Even with one scum being off Yellowsnow's wagon (or the very rare scenario where both scum were off Yellowsnow's wagon), I still don't understand why scum would pass over both you and xwing to nightkill Hearth. I would normally include myself in that list of "Why are you still alive?" as well, but I was not a universal townread like xwing, Hearth was overall probably more townread than I was (I took a bit of heat on day one), and I'm not the IC.

[volxen]

My strongest scum read right now is Saint

. Bandwagons, gets called out for it and pivots to someone else immediately. Either noobtown or scum. I think the more consistent town-play would be to stick to your guns and not immediately cave under pressure.

I'm going to have to go back and read Hearth's ISO tomorrow because that was a bit surprising of a lynch.

I'm curious if Blurry has any thoughts on the end of Day 1 or where we are now since he didn't cast a vote and didn't post that last day

I didn't cast a vote because I felt like YellowSnow was not scum

. I played with someone like the last game I played, and in the back of my mind I was thinking he was not scum, just a jerk, but I hammered him anyway. He ended up being a vanilla townie and it has caused me to re-evaluate how I read players like that. Just because someone is hostile does not make them scum. I unfortunately was stuck at work that night so I wasn't able to get back in time but I think at that point that wagon was not going to get derailed anyways unless it was a hasty switch to Saint, which in my books would have been the better choice, but we can sort that out today. Not going to quite put him at L-1 yet, as his play does in a lot of ways seem new player, but it can be hard to tell sometimes.

I want to go back and read L84 and Roo.

This doesn't make any sense -- you said you didn't cast a vote on day one because you felt that Yellowsnow was not scum, yet you were strongly scumreading Saint and didn't vote for him or try to push him to lynch either. In fact, you removed your predecessor's vote on Brass and then never voted yourself. You replaced into the game

days

before the deadline, and at the time you replaced in Yellowsnow was at 4 votes (L-1) and Saint was only at two votes. As it got closer to the deadline, Yellowsnow voted for Saint and brought him up to three votes:

BlurryX replaces DoubtingThomas.

No change to deadline as we're just under 48hrs anyway.

vote count 1.16

hearthstone1235 (0) :
YellowSnow (4) : volxen, hearthstone1235, L84Dnr, brassherald
L84Dnr (0) :
BlurryX (1) : SaintAngelDFE
Roo (1) : YellowSnow
SaintAngelDFE (2) : xwing, Roo
volxen (0) :
xwing (0) :
brassherald (1) : BlurryX

not voting:

with 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

day one will end automatically in (expired on 2019-01-30 14:00:00) or sooner if a lynch is achieved by majority.


mod notes:
- xwing regular v/la over weekends
- xwing is also coincidentally v/la this Monday
- brassherald v/la 4-9th February
- quack

UNVOTE:

To give me a chance to catch up on what is going on.

I apologize for this being a bit disjointed, but its almost impossible to really come to grips with 14 pages of content in the 24 hours we have to reach a decision, so I'm going to just list things as they come to me.

First person to get up to any notable number of votes was brassherald. Only interesting vote was the third one, the "Lets wagon the IC vote". Not really an indicator of anything.

As for brassherald:

Most of his posts have been IC related, which in my books don't tip the needle in either direction so I will choose to ignore them. Also a lot of posts about the game in general, what roles he prefers. Nothing noteworthy there.

First real post of any kind of leaning was his response to hearthstone about why he had not been particularly active up until that point. Stuck to his guns about Roo, which I like, and he picked up the amoutn of contribution as the day went on so his response is consistent with how he behaved.

Next post that was specifically game-related was him taking Roo away from L-1 which leans town to me. Wanting to allow for the whole day for discussion to get as much information as possible seems like a towny thing to do. More discussion can only benefit town because it gives us more to go off of when trying to figure out who is scum/town.

His later reads seem to be well reasoned for the most part. I will say, I'm not sure how relevant analyzing prior activity is with regards to YellowSnow considering real life obligations have a large role in how much time you can devote to the game, and consequently how you play. Also, there is likely not enough game history to really come up with anythign conclusive. I haven't looked through his prior games, but, has there been a game where he played as scum, and if so, did he play significantly different in that game compared to others? Just because he is playing different this game does not necessarily mean its because he has a different role.

While the defeatist "I don't defend myself against awful wagons" isn't the best of responses, I honestly would chalk this up to not dealing well with pressure instead of scumminess.

My gut feeling so far is this push against YellowSnow has more to do with his playstyle than any kind of actual scumread against him. So far not convinced that he is the best lynch target for today, although I realize time is running out and lynch is better than no-lynch.

vote count 1.17

hearthstone1235 (0) :
YellowSnow (4) : volxen, hearthstone1235, L84Dnr, brassherald
L84Dnr (1) : YellowSnow
BlurryX (1) : SaintAngelDFE
Roo (0) :
SaintAngelDFE (2) : xwing, Roo
volxen (0) :
xwing (0) :
brassherald (0) :

not voting: BlurryX

with 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

day one will end automatically in (expired on 2019-01-30 14:00:00) or sooner if a lynch is achieved by majority.


mod notes:
- xwing regular v/la over weekends
- brassherald v/la 4-9th February
- quack

vote count 1.18

hearthstone1235 (0) :
YellowSnow (4) : volxen, hearthstone1235, L84Dnr, brassherald
L84Dnr (0) :
BlurryX (1) : SaintAngelDFE
Roo (0) :
SaintAngelDFE (3) : xwing, Roo, YellowSnow
volxen (0) :
xwing (0) :
brassherald (0) :

not voting: BlurryX

with 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

day one will end automatically in (expired on 2019-01-30 14:00:00) or sooner if a lynch is achieved by majority.


mod notes:
- prodding SaintAngelDFE
- xwing regular v/la over weekends
- brassherald v/la 4-9th February
- quack

vote count 1.19

hearthstone1235 (0) :
YellowSnow (==[]) : volxen, hearthstone1235, L84Dnr, brassherald, Roo
L84Dnr (0) :
BlurryX (1) : SaintAngelDFE
Roo (0) :
SaintAngelDFE (2) : xwing, YellowSnow
volxen (0) :
xwing (0) :
brassherald (0) :

not voting: BlurryX

with 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

day one will end automatically in (expired on 2019-01-30 14:00:00) or sooner if a lynch is achieved by majority.


mod notes:
- xwing regular v/la over weekends
- brassherald v/la 4-9th February
- quack

Those are all of the vote counts between the time you replaced into DT's slot and the end of day one. You had

plenty

of opportunities to safely vote for Saint (he was never at more than three votes after you replaced in), but instead you sat on the sidelines, removed your predecessor's vote on Brass and then never once voted yourself, talked about how you thought Saint was a much better lynch than Yellowsnow, but then didn't actually do anything (like vote) to try to switch the momentum towards a Saint lynch rather than a Yellowsnow lynch. I don't see a town motivation at all in sitting on the sidelines like this, and that's exactly what you did for all of day one. Sure, there is no guarantee you would have been able to convince everyone to lynch Saint. But you see your supposed "townread" Yellowsnow is all but guaranteed to be lynched, and you do

absolutely nothing

to try and stop it and help push a counter-wagon against your top "scumread" Saint. I think you are scum, as your behavior here is scummy just like your predecessor DT was scummy (see: post 350). I believe you wanted Yellowsnow to be mislynched but didn't want to be on his mislynch wagon, because your scumbuddy either was already on his wagon or was going to be placing the hammer vote.

VOTE: BlurryX

[volxen]

Here's the final vote count for Day 1. I've coloured in known townies in

green

for reference.

hearthstone1235 (0) :
YellowSnow (==[]) : volxen,

hearthstone1235

, L84Dnr, brassherald, Roo
L84Dnr (0) :
BlurryX (1) : SaintAngelDFE
Roo (0) :
SaintAngelDFE (2) : xwing,

YellowSnow

volxen (0) :
xwing (0) :
brassherald (0) :

not voting: BlurryX

If anything, Volxen has understated the danger of having both scum on that wagon. Since at least two of the living players on that wagon must be town they can eliminate themselves from the list of possibilities. That would leave two town players with a 2 in 3 chance of hitting a scum with nothing better than a shot in the dark.

On the other hand, there are a couple of safe wagons that won't lead to a lynch where scum could lodge a vote but not take any blame for the mislynch.

Keep in mind that "not voting" itself should be treated as a wagon for VCA purposes (see: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... _VCA_Guide). And the whole 50% thing that I brought up was from the perspective of a townie off the wagon (or a spectator) -- that from their perspective, if both scum were on Yellowsnow's wagon there would be a 50% chance of hitting scum just by lynching off of Yellowsnow's wagon. Of course, as you pointed out, for the townies that were on Yellowsnow's wagon, that would go up to 67% (2/3). For example, I know I am town, so if both scum were on Yellowsnow's wagon, then I know the scumteam is two out of {L84Dnr, brassherald, Roo}. Of course, I don't believe that given my case against and vote for BlurryX.

But yes, the overall point is that Hearth's nightkill suggests that it is unlikely that both scum were on Hearth's wagon. The only way I see the combination of 1) both scum being on Hearth's wagon and 2) Hearth being nightkilled is if the scumteam found a doctor crumb from Hearth AFTER Yellowsnow was already lynched (i.e., during the night phase). If they had found a doctor crumb during day one, and knew before Yellowsnow was lynched that Hearth would be the nightkill, I think one of them would have avoided Yellowsnow's wagon if at all possible, for the reasons that both you and I have stated. In any case, I spent a considerable amount of time looking at each and every one of Hearth's posts last night, and I didn't find anything in his entire ISO that remotely came across as "oh, he's obviously the doctor". Other people have stated that they were going to look through Hearth's ISO, and no one has pointed out any sort of doctor crumb yet. So unless scum has managed to find something that no townie has been able to find, I don't think a doctor crumb is the explanation for Hearth's nightkill.

[volxen]

I was going to give Blurry a bit of time to post before getting into this, but since Volxen has started down this road:

Look at vote count 1.18 from the POV for

Blurrytown

:

vote count 1.18

hearthstone1235 (0) :
YellowSnow (4) : volxen, hearthstone1235, L84Dnr, brassherald
L84Dnr (0) :
BlurryX (1) : SaintAngelDFE
Roo (0) :
SaintAngelDFE (3) : xwing, Roo, YellowSnow
volxen (0) :
xwing (0) :
brassherald (0) :

not voting:

BlurryX

OK, perhaps you'd rather not hammer YelowSnow just yet, but you could take Saint, your prime scum read, to L-1 and create a competing wagon. Several of us could have been persuaded to lynch Saint instead.

Now look at it from the PoV of

Blurryscum

:

vote count 1.18

hearthstone1235 (0) :
YellowSnow (4) : volxen, hearthstone1235, L84Dnr, brassherald
L84Dnr (0) :
BlurryX (1) : SaintAngelDFE
Roo (0) :
SaintAngelDFE (3) : xwing, Roo, YellowSnow
volxen (0) :
xwing (0) :
brassherald (0) :

not voting:

BlurryX

What's a poor scum to do? Hammer a townie or put Saint at L-1? Try and cobble together a reason for a new wagon?

And since I'm reading Saint as moderately scummy right now, let's make a further assumption:

vote count 1.18

hearthstone1235 (0) :
YellowSnow (4) : volxen, hearthstone1235, L84Dnr, brassherald
L84Dnr (0) :

BlurryX (1) : SaintAngelDFE

Roo (0) :

SaintAngelDFE

(3) : xwing, Roo, YellowSnow
volxen (0) :
xwing (0) :
brassherald (0) :

not voting:

BlurryX

So we have a distancing vote by Saint on Blurry/DT, and poor Blurry not wanting to put his partner at L-1 because he won't even get any town cred for the bus. We do have some distancing by Blurry on Saint by way of being his top scum read but no vote.

Granted, there are a fair number of assumptions going into that, but Saint and Blurry are in my scum pile right now so this makes a fair bit of sense of their actions. Unless there are further developments, which there's plenty of time for, I'm content to lynch Saint at the end of day. If he flips red than Blurry's lack of Day 1 vote becomes significantly more meaningful.

Those are fair points, in that both BlurryX and Saint managed to avoid being on any major wagon. The argument could be made that Saint was on a vanity wagon (i.e., a wagon that clearly isn't going anywhere) by keeping his vote on BlurryX/DT. In Saint's defense though, Yellowsnow got up to L-1 after Brass voted for him, so the soonest Saint could have voted for Yellowsnow was at the end of the deadline, but Roo had already given intent to hammer Yellow in any case. And the only two wagons were Yellowsnow's wagon and Saint's own wagon, so town!Saint most likely would have just ended up being the lone voter on a wagon regardless of who he voted for.

Contrast that with BlurryX, who was scumreading one of the people being wagoned (Saint) and townreading the other (Yellowsnow), and yet didn't vote at all. Whereas Saint arguably has a valid reason for not being on a major wagon with multiple voters (because there was simply no wagon he could join), BlurryX does not have a valid reason for not voting for his scumread (Saint).

So BluryX has a lot of scum equity, especially when factoring in DT's content as well. But I don't think it's all that likely that BlurryX and Saint are scum together. First, it's just very rare for a townie to get mislynched with no scum being on the wagon. Especially on day one where five votes are needed to pull off a lynch -- that would imply that at least 5/6 (~83.33%) of Yellowsnow's fellow townies all agreed that he was scum. Second, there was this dynamic on day one where multiple people seemed to be OK with lynching either Yellowsnow or Saint if it came down to it, which makes me think both could be town here -- interchangeable mislynches from scum's POV. Third, Saint did give off newb!town vibes on day one that I don't think he could easily fake on his own without some serious coaching/help from a more experienced scumbuddy.

[volxen]

A few notes to take away from that:

- Our IC and SE's aren't big on voting, with Brass (3 votes), Xwing (2 votes) and Volxen (1 vote). Is this standard play so that the inexperienced players take the initiative?
- Aside from his RVS vote, both of Brass' votes were in very safe spots.
- DT/Blurry's vote record is very slim, managing to vote Brass twice before Blurry took over and unvoted.
- Hearth voted a lot. Perhaps this is what got him NKed. We'll have to ask scum when the game ends.

"Standard play" for me is to vote for someone during RVS, and then move my vote when I have a serious scumread on someone. In this case, it just worked out that the person I had my RVS vote on (Yellowsnow) ended up being my top scumread at the end of day one, so I didn't move my vote onto someone else.

I guess this is just a playstyle thing for you, but in my experience, especially post RVS, most people don't vote for someone just because they want to question them or whatever. Usually after RVS has ended, when people place a vote for someone it's because they are scumreading that person. Especially if it's day two and beyond. This is why I asked you earlier, "Why do you think I am the most likely scum on Yellow's wagon", because you immediately voted for me after Saint posted and you unvoted him. I assumed your vote for me was you saying, "You're my top scumread Volxen", because that is usually what a vote means at this stage of the game.

In any case, I'm glad you've been doing VCA/analysis, because frankly I've been fairly skeptical of your slot. However, this is your first game here, and I have my doubts that you would be putting in this degree of effort as scum into analyzing not only vote counts, but how many votes each player placed during day one, who they voted for, and when they voted. Sure this kind of effort could be put in by scum, but I do think this kind of highly-focused analysis is more likely to come from town!you rather than scum!you. Which means I can focus my efforts on casing Brass and Roo, because I am not convinced that both of them are town. I do believe that there was scum on Yellowsnow's wagon, and that one of Brass or Roo is scum with BlurryX.

The thing that really bothers me about the notion of both Brass and xwing being town is, why are they

BOTH

still alive today? One is the fairly townread IC player, the other is the universally regarded obvtown player. I do agree that xwing is towny, but I am not convinced that Brass is town. A fair amount of his content on day one was IC related posts, and as he said himself, he "played things close to the chest". Whereas you and I really cased Yellowsnow, he just basically agreed with my Yellowsnow case and hopped onto the end of the wagon as the L-1 voter. Roo didn't do anything that stood out to me as particularly towny either, and I kind of felt like he may have been hard pocketing me when he immediately agreed with me when I first accused Saint of making up his reads when he botched up that post where he voted for me instead of DT (after claiming that DT was his top scumread and that he was townreading me). This is why I think Brass/BlurryX or Roo/BlurryX are both plausible scumteams -- but I do need to case both Brass and Roo individually.

[volxen]

Blurry, I hope that you didn't just self-hammer.

Damnit, that's exactly what happened. He felt he was caught red-handed as scum, so he self-hammered to try and force the day to end early to cut off discussion. This thread is going to be locked as soon as the mod comes back, but we are allowed to keep posting until that time. Right now we are in "twilight", the time in-between the hammer vote being placed and the mod coming back. So anything you (or anyone else) wants to share before night 2 starts needs to be shared ASAP.

In case I am not around tomorrow,

please don't just just autolynch Saint

. I really do think there is a strong likelihood of there being scum on Yellowsnow's wagon.

Please take a hard look at Brass and Roo

as I believe one of these two is BlurryX's scumbuddy.

[volxen]

That self-vote should be taken as a scumclaim from Blurry, so now would be a good time to look for associatives before this goes to the night phase.

[volxen]

I'm not sure it is. Not seeing a rule so I'm awaiting the Word of Mod.

Blurry, assuming you aren't lynched, please don't give up. Replacing in is tough and you may not think that you've played as well as you could have, but you can always try and pull it off. This is just a game and it's a n00b game, so perfect play is hardly what's expected.

? No, a self-vote definitely counts. Blurry is 100% lynched. Self-hammering is a legitimate scum tactic (as long as you aren't the last remaining scum of course) if you feel you are caught and the best thing is to abruptly end the day to cutoff discussion.

[volxen]

DT/BlurryX-Brass interactions/associatives:

VOTE: The Worst

@The Worst if you thought being the mod would stop me from voting for you during RVS, think again buddy.

Let's get a wagon going against TW!

Here's a good teaching moment for the newbies, voting the mod is never funny.

Why not?

VOTE: brass

DT's first vote is for Brass

did brass keep their rvs vote on me?

DT asks if Brass kept his vote on him, when Brass never voted for him in the first place.

did brass keep their rvs vote on me?

I never voted you this entire game.

Wait, do you think your vote on me is me voting you?

That's not how to read a vote count.

yeah LOL that's what happened lmfao ok

what reads do you have brass?

"IC_Question": What if scum plays exactly as they would if they were town? Wouldn't it be impossible to catch them?

I wouldn't say impossible. At the end of the game there's always a question of why someone is there. Night Kills generally aim for people who are either super Towny, an obvious PR or sometimes just someone who is too close to solving the game.

That being said, it can be very hard to catch a skilled scum player who has a scum range which closely emulates their town. If someone gets that reputation, people will probably just start lynching that individual before end game to be safe

It is not impossible because they have exactly different players they need to lynch to win

For example if I am in a game of 13 players, there are usually 3 scums.

Say I am town. My goal is to find 3 scums out of the 12 players, or 9 towns out of the 12 players (excluding myself)

Say I am scum. My goal is to mislynch the other 10 players (excluding myself and two teammates, total of 3 mafias in a 13 player game)

In the process, maybe I can also bus my other two teammates for some credit, but in the end I have to kill at least 7 town players as scum (because 3 towns - 3 scums is a parity win condition for scum so i need to at LEAST kill 7 players), whereas as town, I have to find and kill other 3 scum players, while in the process towns will be night killed and potentially be lynched, but I can theoretically win the game after only 5 players have died (by lynching all 3 scums back to back to back meanwhile during the nights 2 towns are being night killed)

I know that explanation kinda sucked, but that is basically the core reason.

Don't forget, during the process of the game, the logic/reasoning for one person to use for scum reading a town as a town and wolf and also scum reading a scum/bussing a scum as a town/wolf will have differences, inherently

Tl;dr If I am not DT but I know DT's meta and history, I would put him at very slight scum lean to generate reaction to help myself understand his alignment a little more while keeping in mind he is actually null. I would be slightly annoyed that he is not playing to his usual self because no matter what that is that is negative for town and hope that he will start playing. As of now, he isn't one of my main scum suspects tbh

Are you talking about yourself in the third person and reading yourself.

This is why I also hate walls, if you can say something in fewer words, say it that way, this post in general is too hard to follow and I have no clue what you are trying to say.

I think this post is extremely bad in a scummy way

First problem

He attacks the post which was merely an ANSWER to another player's question

Second problem

I see really no point of making this post at all.
He's asking a very simple question that can be kinda inferred to (that I made this post in a third person way) but also at the same time, the question itself doesn't contribute to ANY scum hunting at all. The answer to whether or not I wrote the post in a third person does not help brass know my alignment at all.

Third problem

Then he goes on to attack my post in a way that's NAI and kinda pointless to point out. That "he hates walls" again which is his opinion, and he is free to express it. However, by expressing this opinion along with a pointless question he asked above, he is literally contributing nothing to the thread but still commenting on a post which was not directed towards him at all.

I think him giving out a negative opinion about the post which is not about the content of the post and how that may be townish/scummish of me is usually how scums tend to try to

shade

other players.

Overall, this post has 3 things I hate so much

- Belittling a post in a very indirect yet meaningless way
- Using that negative factor of the post to attack my slot/give a negative impression to others about me
- While in actuality if you look into this post, he contributed absolutely nothing. He did not enhance a conversation between me and him nor gave any useful analysis wrt my post

Furthermore, I think his complaint about how "he hates long post" and "if you have a succinct way of say something, say it in a simpler way" is just kinda really bad approach to the game

I can understand disliking long posts and I am sorry if you think that it makes the point I am trying to get across to be lost in the middle of it, but I make long posts because I tend to get on a tangent and write about all the thoughts I have in the process. To partly show a transparent thought process I have. This way, I can show others how/why I felt/thought abotu something in a certain way and discuss about it with them. Which will help me understand the other person's alignment better

You can dislike long posts and hate my post for not getting straight to the point, but I feel pretty strongly about this.

At the same time, I now think it's

REALLY SCUMMY

for you to just attack my post based on the fact that it's a long post and I didn't get my point across with it. rather than talking/expressing about how that makes me townie/scummy nor actually trying to ask me questions about the confusion you have with the post.

Because if you are town, you should be curious about the confusion you have. You express that you did not understand my post completely, but really don't ask a legit question that will help your clarification. Rather, you focus on how that makes my posting bad. Again, I think that comes from a scummy agenda that you want to give others the impression that I am posting badly.

I believe you are scum here, sir.

VOTE: Brass

DT tries to vote for Brass again even though his vote was already there.

did brass keep their rvs vote on me?

I never voted you this entire game.

Right now, I've got some suspicions to Saint because I didn't like that answer but I'm willing to wait until he responds to xwing.

YellowSnow for reasons discussed before, in fact I don't think he posted yesterday at all, and it feels lurky to me compared to the last game I played with him.

Doubting Thomas is asking very general questions rather than pointed ones, that seems like being active lurking. I mean, there is a difference between asking someone what they think of the gamestate and what they think of a specific slot or a specific post. I feel like we are at the point where the questions should be specific rather than general. The questions just seem too easy.

I also find Volxen's silence uneasy. That's an SE slot barely participating.

The other 4 of you get passes for now into what passes for a town block on the basis of not being as suspect.

Tl;dr If I am not DT but I know DT's meta and history, I would put him at very slight scum lean to generate reaction to help myself understand his alignment a little more while keeping in mind he is actually null. I would be slightly annoyed that he is not playing to his usual self because no matter what that is that is negative for town and hope that he will start playing. As of now, he isn't one of my main scum suspects tbh

Are you talking about yourself in the third person and reading yourself.

This is why I also hate walls, if you can say something in fewer words, say it that way, this post in general is too hard to follow and I have no clue what you are trying to say.

what reads do you have brass?

I feel like I just answered this one, and it seems this is the only question directed at me right now. Not too much change here.

I like XWing for town, though, independent of there being too many scumspects.

That being said, I don't see a townslip from DT, and I will also remind people town slips can be faked, if it's even there.

Also, slight IC tip in a game related post, you can highlight a portion of a post and hit the Quote button to just quote that portion of the post.

Tl;dr If I am not DT but I know DT's meta and history, I would put him at very slight scum lean to generate reaction to help myself understand his alignment a little more while keeping in mind he is actually null. I would be slightly annoyed that he is not playing to his usual self because no matter what that is that is negative for town and hope that he will start playing. As of now, he isn't one of my main scum suspects tbh

Are you talking about yourself in the third person and reading yourself.

This is why I also hate walls, if you can say something in fewer words, say it that way, this post in general is too hard to follow and I have no clue what you are trying to say.

I think this post is extremely bad in a scummy way

First problem

He attacks the post which was merely an ANSWER to another player's question

Second problem

I see really no point of making this post at all.
He's asking a very simple question that can be kinda inferred to (that I made this post in a third person way) but also at the same time, the question itself doesn't contribute to ANY scum hunting at all. The answer to whether or not I wrote the post in a third person does not help brass know my alignment at all.

Third problem

Then he goes on to attack my post in a way that's NAI and kinda pointless to point out. That "he hates walls" again which is his opinion, and he is free to express it. However, by expressing this opinion along with a pointless question he asked above, he is literally contributing nothing to the thread but still commenting on a post which was not directed towards him at all.

I think him giving out a negative opinion about the post which is not about the content of the post and how that may be townish/scummish of me is usually how scums tend to try to

shade

other players.

Overall, this post has 3 things I hate so much

- Belittling a post in a very indirect yet meaningless way
- Using that negative factor of the post to attack my slot/give a negative impression to others about me
- While in actuality if you look into this post, he contributed absolutely nothing. He did not enhance a conversation between me and him nor gave any useful analysis wrt my post

Furthermore, I think his complaint about how "he hates long post" and "if you have a succinct way of say something, say it in a simpler way" is just kinda really bad approach to the game

I can understand disliking long posts and I am sorry if you think that it makes the point I am trying to get across to be lost in the middle of it, but I make long posts because I tend to get on a tangent and write about all the thoughts I have in the process. To partly show a transparent thought process I have. This way, I can show others how/why I felt/thought abotu something in a certain way and discuss about it with them. Which will help me understand the other person's alignment better

You can dislike long posts and hate my post for not getting straight to the point, but I feel pretty strongly about this.

At the same time, I now think it's

REALLY SCUMMY

for you to just attack my post based on the fact that it's a long post and I didn't get my point across with it. rather than talking/expressing about how that makes me townie/scummy nor actually trying to ask me questions about the confusion you have with the post.

Because if you are town, you should be curious about the confusion you have. You express that you did not understand my post completely, but really don't ask a legit question that will help your clarification. Rather, you focus on how that makes my posting bad. Again, I think that comes from a scummy agenda that you want to give others the impression that I am posting badly.

I believe you are scum here, sir.

VOTE: Brass

Oh my god, can you get an editor or something? Because these posts are so long and say basically nothing.

I asked you directly what you were doing in your previous wall post, it was the first sentence of my post. And you don't think it's a "legit question".

Serious advice, don't fall in love with your own voice so much that you can't learn to stop talking and make the point you are trying to make.

Here DT posts an over-the-top scumread of Brass, and it doesn't even phase Brass. He basically just criticizes DT for making the post too long and tells him to "not fall in love with your own voice", but he doesn't take the scumread itself seriously at all and the whole thing seems to have completly unphased Brass. Considering Brass previously expressed suspicions of DT ("he's asking very general questions"), Brass should have taken this more seriously and given a real response to this scumread from DT.

The only other one I would lynch today is Saint right now, tbh. DT slot is too far from lynch to be realistic with 10 hours left.

I'm not sure that Scum!YellowSnow claims a VT, to be honest, because he knows the optimal fake claim on the basis of me saying it in our last game.

But, we are also in the 11th hour, so my lynch pool is {YellowSnow,Saint} and I think if either of them are town, the last is BlurryX(I'm pretty sure he is the DT replacement?)

UNVOTE:

To give me a chance to catch up on what is going on.

I apologize for this being a bit disjointed, but its almost impossible to really come to grips with 14 pages of content in the 24 hours we have to reach a decision, so I'm going to just list things as they come to me.

First person to get up to any notable number of votes was brassherald. Only interesting vote was the third one, the "Lets wagon the IC vote". Not really an indicator of anything.

As for brassherald:

Most of his posts have been IC related, which in my books don't tip the needle in either direction so I will choose to ignore them. Also a lot of posts about the game in general, what roles he prefers. Nothing noteworthy there.

First real post of any kind of leaning was his response to hearthstone about why he had not been particularly active up until that point. Stuck to his guns about Roo, which I like, and he picked up the amoutn of contribution as the day went on so his response is consistent with how he behaved.

Next post that was specifically game-related was him taking Roo away from L-1 which leans town to me. Wanting to allow for the whole day for discussion to get as much information as possible seems like a towny thing to do. More discussion can only benefit town because it gives us more to go off of when trying to figure out who is scum/town.

His later reads seem to be well reasoned for the most part. I will say, I'm not sure how relevant analyzing prior activity is with regards to YellowSnow considering real life obligations have a large role in how much time you can devote to the game, and consequently how you play. Also, there is likely not enough game history to really come up with anythign conclusive. I haven't looked through his prior games, but, has there been a game where he played as scum, and if so, did he play significantly different in that game compared to others? Just because he is playing different this game does not necessarily mean its because he has a different role.

While the defeatist "I don't defend myself against awful wagons" isn't the best of responses, I honestly would chalk this up to not dealing well with pressure instead of scumminess.

My gut feeling so far is this push against YellowSnow has more to do with his playstyle than any kind of actual scumread against him. So far not convinced that he is the best lynch target for today, although I realize time is running out and lynch is better than no-lynch.

So the first person BlurryX mentioned after replacing in was Brass, and he took a 100% null position towards Brass's slot, with his overall conclusion about Brass being that there was "nothing noteworthy there".

My overall conclusion is that a lot of these interactions between Brass and DT/BlurryX look like SvS distancing. DT and Brass for example both shaded each other, but neither seriously tried to push the other to lynch. Brass didn't give a proper response to DT's scumcase. He shaded DT throughout the day, but had a clear preference of lyching Yellowsnow or Saint.

[volxen]

Good game everyone, glad to see us townies won!

I jailed Xwing on night one (because I thought he was likely to be nightkilled), and I jailed Brass on night two (because I thought he was scum). I wasn't 100% sold on Saint being town, but I had a lot of concerns that scum!Brass might slip through the cracks, whereas I didn't think that would be the case with scum!Roo or scum!Saint. So I figured if Brass was scum, that would work itself out because there would have been no nightkill (because the mafia roleblocker was already dead and Brass was in jail), and Brass and I would have gotten into a 1 vs 1. I figured if Saint was scum that would work itself out anyways (which it did), and if Roo were scum I think it would have worked itself out as well.

I didn't out myself as the jailkeeper because I didn't know whether BlurryX was the mafia roleblocker or the mafia goon prior to his flip -- I just knew that he was scum once he self-hammered, but that was it. Had BlurryX been the mafia goon, I couldn't have cleared anyone via jailing them because the mafia roleblocker would simply roleblock me and kill me, or roleblock me and kill someone else. I also figured that my final posts that I made before I died made it fairly obvious that Brass is the most likely person that I jailed. I think L84Dnr picked up on this and realized that the fact that I most likely jailed Brass and still got nightkilled meant that Brass was town.