Micro 845: The Room Odds - Game Over

[Clemency]

welcome to the apartment complex

Anything to say?

just prod dodging
i'll report in today once im less busy
i need focus to think about games im less interested in

[tris]

I guess I'll VOTE: Plotinus

UNVOTE: Plotinus

I've got a reply from him, but I think I should let him speak for himself in here.

You're not at all suspicious that he replied so quickly after your vote?

He says that it was late for him at that time, but he wanted to answer my questions before going to bed.

Can you see that from my POV you look like you just got pocketed by scum?

Yes.

@Persivul. Would you agree or disagree with the assertion that you are more prickly as scum.

Disagree.

Why do you ask? Did someone tell you that secretly? If so, why don't they confront me publicly?

When I asked him about that earlier, he said he'll say more in public later. I hope he gets around to it soon. I don't really understand why he hasn't made himself more clear in here. It is a bit frustrating. It's possible it's because he's scum.

[Gamma Emerald]

Sorry, didn't get around to this last night.

VOTE: Something_Smart, you haven't really been saying much here in the main thread.

Have or have they not been saying things in their room though?

[BNL]

Vote Count 1.12

Persivul (2): Flavor Leaf, Plotinus
Gamma Emerald (2): Ruby Red, tris
Plotinus (1): Persivul

Not Voting (4): Dunnstral, Clemency, Gamma Emerald, Something_Smart

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
The deadline is 27 January 1am UTC-4, or in

(expired on 2019-01-27 01:00:00)

Rooms and Post Restrictions

Something Smart, tris ((expired on 2019-01-24 15:55:04))

Gamma Emerald, Clemency
Persivul, Gamma Emerald, Dunnstral
Ruby Red, Clemency
Plotinus, tris
Something_Smart, Flavor Leaf

Get a Room

Not Voting (9): Persivul, Ruby Red, Flavor Leaf, Clemency, Gamma Emerald, Dunnstral, Something_Smart, tris, Plotinus

It takes 2n-1 votes to get a n player Room.

Infractions

None yet

Mod notes:
Something_Smart and tris have gotten a Room

[Something_Smart]

Ruby, rooms are the whole point of the game I read this game where the rooms were used by town to devastating effect.

And Gamma, pay attention to timing and don't ask questions that can't be answered.

[Gamma Emerald]

I think you're not supposed to directly interact, discussing the person is fine

[tris]

If enough people vote in this manner, those players will gain a

temporary post restriction

that they may not talk to

or about each other

in public for 48 hours or the rest of the day phase (whichever is shorter). While restricted in this manner, they may continue to vote and unvote each other normally, including room votes.

[Plotinus]

Get a Room: Plotinus, Flavour Leaf

Hook me up, guys. The way for town to win the game is to coordinate in private in as many rooms as possible. I've moderated this setup a bunch of times and this is the best way, trust me. The more rooms there are, the harder scum has to work to be on top of the game. If you're town and a bit overwhelmed by the rooms, paradoxically, more rooms will make it better; it's a bit awkward when you're not in enough of them.

We need to lynch Persivul guys, he's scum. I waited until I was sure and went after other people who were doing scummy things because I can read him pretty well, but I've been sure since I voted him.

Point 1: Across the games that I've moderated with this setup,

70% of scum players complained in public about rooms

. Town were usually enthusiastic about them or at least neutral, though a few townies struggled to keep up if they were in fewer rooms than most people.

Point 2:

Selective listening

: When Persivul is trying to smear somebody and it turns out that his point is false, he completely ignores this information. For example, in 178-183, he ignores the clarification that Clemency's post restriction was 5 minutes away from expiring when I made that comment, so what I and Clemency understood my comment to mean was "I don't expect an answer in the next five minutes, but when you're free to talk about, please tell me..." He also continues to act like it's scummy that I'm pushing rooms when I've clarified multiple times that having modded this setup gives me insight into what the best strategy for town is. He has to do this because he knows that rooms are making it harder for him to control the game as scum.

He's not trying to find out the truth, he's just trying to push his agenda.

Point 3:

Tone

. Persivul tends to use a different tone when he's town than when he's scum.

[Flavor Leaf]

Get A Room: Plotinus/Flavor Leaf

I don’t necessarily like the 70% comment, but I’m assuming you didn’t mean it exactly, just scum are more likely than town to go about it that way.

[Flavor Leaf]

@Gamma - What’s going on your PT?

[Clemency]

Get a Room: Plotinus, Flavour Leaf

Hook me up, guys. The way for town to win the game is to coordinate in private in as many rooms as possible. I've moderated this setup a bunch of times and this is the best way, trust me. The more rooms there are, the harder scum has to work to be on top of the game. If you're town and a bit overwhelmed by the rooms, paradoxically, more rooms will make it better; it's a bit awkward when you're not in enough of them.

We need to lynch Persivul guys, he's scum. I waited until I was sure and went after other people who were doing scummy things because I can read him pretty well, but I've been sure since I voted him.

Point 1: Across the games that I've moderated with this setup,

70% of scum players complained in public about rooms

. Town were usually enthusiastic about them or at least neutral, though a few townies struggled to keep up if they were in fewer rooms than most people.

Point 2:

Selective listening

: When Persivul is trying to smear somebody and it turns out that his point is false, he completely ignores this information. For example, in 178-183, he ignores the clarification that Clemency's post restriction was 5 minutes away from expiring when I made that comment, so what I and Clemency understood my comment to mean was "I don't expect an answer in the next five minutes, but when you're free to talk about, please tell me..." He also continues to act like it's scummy that I'm pushing rooms when I've clarified multiple times that having modded this setup gives me insight into what the best strategy for town is. He has to do this because he knows that rooms are making it harder for him to control the game as scum.

He's not trying to find out the truth, he's just trying to push his agenda.

Point 3:

Tone

. Persivul tends to use a different tone when he's town than when he's scum.

yeah i'll follow this logic

VOTE: persivul

[Clemency]

welcome to the apartment complex

Anything to say?

just prod dodging
i'll report in today once im less busy
i need focus to think about games im less interested in

oops

[Plotinus]

I actually went back and counted across the 5 games I'd modded, and 7 out of 10 scum players complained about them. (Additionally 2 of the scum players who didn't complain about them did exhibit another behaviour in their rooms that I won't mention unless it comes up.) I didn't go back and read all of the games thoroughly, and notably I didn't go back and carefully reread the town ISOs, so I can't tell you what percentage of town players complained about them, just that I remember it being a lot less than that.

So I can't tell you that "a person who complains about rooms is x% likely to be scum." -- that would require going back and carefully counting up the behaviour of the town players and doing a Bayesian analysis. I can tell you that I believe the result of such analysis would indicate that they are much more likely to be scum than town.

[Plotinus]

In case someone has more time than me and cares to make such an analysis, the games in question are:

Slavic Music I - town win
Slavic Music II - scum win
Fire and Ice - town win, and I'm just remembering that there was another scum team in that game (I previously only looked at the fire team). Okay so update the results to 8/12 scum players complain about them (75%) and 2/3 of the scum players exhibiting the behaviour in their rooms that I won't mention even though it is not hard to figure out if you ask yourself what a player who is not very good at being scum would do in a room.)
Fractals - town win
Boombox - scum win

[Plotinus]

*8/12 == 66%

[Plotinus]

Clemency, while you're here do you want to hammer my room with flavour?

[Clemency]

get a room:plotinus, flavour leaf

Get a Room

Plotinus, Flavor Leaf (3): Plotinus, Flavor Leaf, Clemency

(R-0)

Not Voting (6): Persivul, Ruby Red, Gamma Emerald, Dunnstral, Something_Smart, tris

It takes 2n-1 votes to get a n player Room.

Plotinus

and

Flavor Leaf

have gotten a Room

[Plotinus]

thanks! <3

Ruby, Persivul, and Dunn are leftover but it sounds like they're not interested anyway.

[Persivul]

Get a Room: Plotinus, Flavour Leaf

Point 1: Across the games that I've moderated with this setup,

70% of scum players complained in public about rooms

. Town were usually enthusiastic about them or at least neutral, though a few townies struggled to keep up if they were in fewer rooms than most people.

Is the scum team {pers, dunn, ruby}?

If not, you're using a stat disingenuously to push me, probably because I made a case on you to which you haven't responded.

Point 2:

Selective listening

: When Persivul is trying to smear somebody and it turns out that his point is false, he completely ignores this information. For example, in 178-183, he ignores the clarification that Clemency's post restriction was 5 minutes away from expiring when I made that comment, so what I and Clemency understood my comment to mean was "I don't expect an answer in the next five minutes, but when you're free to talk about, please tell me..."

Except that had nothing to do with my case on you. I just think your attitude and wording was rude.

He also continues to act like it's scummy that I'm pushing rooms when I've clarified multiple times that having modded this setup gives me insight into what the best strategy for town is. He has to do this because he knows that rooms are making it harder for him to control the game as scum.

He's not trying to find out the truth, he's just trying to push his agenda.

Continues to act like it's scummy? I made one point about your push for rooms being scummy: 220 "His first post is bad. I get using rooms for a reason. But, just making rooms to make rooms eventually sows confusion, and that benefits scum."

Note that I was paraphrasing an argument that I had made several days previously in a room, and that referred to your first post on rooms. My main reason for scum reading you is your push on Dunn, as is apparent in that post.

After you clarified your reasoning on rooms, I actually agreed with you in part: 106 "Huh? Plot wants rooms with a specific purposes: "for town to have places to work together out of scum's eyes,: and to "scumhunt people in private differently from you can scumhunt them in public."

I agree with the first

,"

So, you're misrepping me when you act as if I'm inflexible in my assessment of your position on rooms.

Point 3:

Tone

. Persivul tends to use a different tone when he's town than when he's scum.

Do you have examples?

I had both a town game and a scum game end yesterday:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=77928
viewtopic.php?f=83&t=78139

Please, show how my tone in this game is clearly the same as my tone in the scum game, and clearly different from the tone in the town game.

I've been a little nasty in this game. Anyone who bothers to read these is going to see I wasn't like that at all in the scum game, but did show some snark in the town game.

So, either your memory is bad, your meta is out of date, or you're just making things up because I'm pushing you.

[Persivul]

yeah i'll follow this logic

Go back and read Mini Normal 2044, which we played together as town. Check my tone there. You'll see me saying things like

I think your vote is lazy af, he spams games with a ton of fluff in a thousand one-line posts

, etc. You won't see things like that in the scum game above. You do see that kind of tone in this game.

So...why do you follow that logic?

[Dunnstral]

It really looks like Plotinus is the one pushing an agenda here to me

[Clemency]

yeah i'll follow this logic

Go back and read Mini Normal 2044, which we played together as town. Check my tone there. You'll see me saying things like

I think your vote is lazy af, he spams games with a ton of fluff in a thousand one-line posts

, etc. You won't see things like that in the scum game above. You do see that kind of tone in this game.

So...why do you follow that logic?

idk 2044 felt a lot different in my opinion

[Plotinus]

I read the games and I think "I think your vote is lazy af" isn't particularly mean. I think Persivul's tone here is more like what I would expect for him as scum.

it's also skeeving me out a little that Persivul dropped that vote and then hasn't revisited since

I'm reading. Alisae told me and TTTT to vote and then let the grown-ups decide the outcome, so that's what I'm doing. Her attitude irritated me, as she isn't conftown. That was my admittedly passive-aggressive protest. Plus, work has been hectic today.

I of course would have addressed anything new, but let's face it - there hasn't been anything new. You're just having understandable difficulty pulling the trigger. You don't really have to. No lynch won't kill us. Ali thought it was scummy of me to say we should consider that. You don't here her complaining about the possibility of it now.

I'm here for awhile if you want to talk.

It's true that the games I was thinking of were older because I haven't played in a while and neither has Persivul. But off the top of my head, wifom city, friends and enemies, Evolution mafia, Mexican standoff. I'll be the first to admit that those games were a long time ago, and the difference isn't as pronounced between your latest two games, though I do think it's there. Maybe your last scum game wasn't as frustrating as this one.

It's not a matter of being snarky; I like a bit of snark as much anyone. Your snark has a little more barbed when you're scum. That's all.

[Plotinus]

It's true I've been ignoring your case on me. I wasn1t particularly interested in it.

VOTE: Plotinus

From the room, 3 days ago:

[Redacted - do not quote from PTs]

Not sure why I can't quote myself, but anyway:

I was asked what I thought of plot. To paraphrase, I said:

- His first post is bad. I get using rooms for a reason. But, just making rooms to make rooms eventually sows confusion, and that benefits scum.

Disagree.

- Then I noted that I didn't like the reason given for the dunn vote in 140 because:

- It's not unusual for people to talk about novel mechanics at the start of a game.
- In 141, plot then addresses me and doesn't show suspicion, when I had expressed the same thoughts about rooms as dunn did.

If I can read someone based on my experience with them, that trumps reading them based on their doing something that is genericly scummy, and targetting a bunch of people at the same time is a waste of energy. I do better with a narrow focus.

- Again in 141 - "I am excited about the opportunity to apply graph theory to this coordination problem but we could scumhunt instead." But at that point, plot had mostly been talking about mechanics and had done very little scum hunting.

It is very hard for me to pay attention to anything unless I can tie it to one of my current interests, and I am very excitable about mathematics.

Then in 143 - "Clemency, you've disappeared. What are your reads?" This struck me as plot thinking

Oh yeah, I haven't been scum hunting either, better throw some in

.

I've been checking the activity meter a lot because sometimes when I forget people exist, it's because they're scum.

I'm feeling better about Clemency lately though.

Is the scum team {pers, dunn, ruby}?

If not, you're using a stat disingenuously to push me,

Probably, actually. I'm feeling pretty good about the odds that it's {pers, dunn}. If Ruby would explain their townread on Dunn, I'd listen to it, but she won't, so it doesn't mean anything to me. I'm thinking about other people but:

Flavour is town.
tris has been going back and forth between working together with me and being paranoid of me in a way that feels pretty town to me.
I'm feeling decent about Clemency recently but maybe I'm being too lenient.
I haven't minded any of something smart's posts
Dunno about gamma but he seems okay
Need more from Ruby
Dunnstral was worrying me and then I felt a bit better about him but now he's defending Persivul
Persivul is scum

!INFRACTION! - You cannot talk to or about Flavor Leaf right now

[Persivul]

idk 2044 felt a lot different in my opinion

Of course it felt different - we were all participating in one thread. If you compare this game to the town and scum games I linked above, you'll find that this one feels different from both of those as well. This game is different from most games. The relevant question is, is my tone in this game closer to my tone in town games, or my tone in scum games? Another possibility is that my tone isn't AI at all.

You should also consider scum motivations for my play in this game. What's the motivation for scum!persivul to pick a fight with a town leader*, and to proactively make a push on that person? There is none. A scum I'd NK plot, not make a risky and unnecessary early D1 push.

*Make no mistake that plot has set himself up as a town leader. If scum pulls that off, it's game over, particularly with the lack of investigatives in this setup. That's part of why I'm vetting plot

now

.