Mini Normal 2046: Autumn's Farewell [Endgame]

[mbaki]

This is gonna be fun.

[mbaki]

Well that's awkward.

My thoughts exactly.

[mbaki]

Creature, can you post a reads list please?

[mbaki]

Creature, can you post a reads list please?

Varsoon, Kmd or DDL scum

rest town

So you have Oka cleared as town?

[mbaki]

Creature, can you post a reads list please?

Varsoon, Kmd or DDL scum

rest town

So you have Oka cleared as town?

I know the claim looks bad, but the play doesn't.

Town case Oka for me please.

[mbaki]

Creature, can you post a reads list please?

Varsoon, Kmd or DDL scum

rest town

Creature, why are you townreading OkaPoka?

You townread suka before her claim?

I was townleaning Suka before the claim due to the early wagon momentum both on and off this slot. I also liked the "casing is scummy" ideals for town. The massclaim consolidated my inklings into a full-on townread.

How is this question giving you any useful information?

Don't waste time defending your slot please, nobody is lynching you this game.

Who's the second scum if you think one is Oka? And I know this was asked, but how much of the game have you read and do you intend on reading more?

[mbaki]

Creature, why are you townreading OkaPoka?

Postcount

This is NAI for many players unless you have meta to back it up. Does Oka have a meta of lowposting as scum?

[mbaki]

Creature, why are you townreading OkaPoka?

Postcount

This is NAI for many players unless you have meta to back it up. Does Oka have a meta of lowposting as scum?

I like to think I haven't been beaten by scum at postcount at 400 and half something posts.

I have posted more than that and won as scum. Same thing goes for many players, such as RC (who has definitely beat you as scum), Mathblade, etc. These players all post about equal as town and scum.

[mbaki]

@Varsoon: I'm sorry if you've said already, but could you rank the order of your reads? I would like to brainstorm with you.

I don't even remember everyone in the game.
If I had to order it off of what I can recall right now it'd be:
TOWN:
You
KMD
DDL
Mbaki
Oka
Creature
:SCUM

Though DDL, Mbaki, and Oka are all kinda on the same line.
I think I proposed a pool earlier?
Regardless

Yeah

Kmd is that strong of a townread?

[mbaki]

Creature, why are you townreading OkaPoka?

Postcount

This is NAI for many players unless you have meta to back it up. Does Oka have a meta of lowposting as scum?

I like to think I haven't been beaten by scum at postcount at 400 and half something posts.

I have posted more than that and won as scum. Same thing goes for many players, such as RC (who has definitely beat you as scum), Mathblade, etc. These players all post about equal as town and scum.

These players are all next level scum and I can't find a correct way to read them.

Okay, but Oka apparently posts more as scum than town (-Moongrass, could use sources). Why would you assume posting less as scum is the default, and not just a playstyle thing? Because in my experience, more often than not, posting frequency is just a playstyle issue.

[mbaki]

Creature, why are you townreading OkaPoka?

Postcount

This is NAI for many players unless you have meta to back it up. Does Oka have a meta of lowposting as scum?

No. Infact, he has the opposite scum meta. Creature applying his own scum meta to read a player he isn't very familar with is dubious at best. Interesting.

I don't think you answered my questions from the last page, by the way.

[mbaki]

Meh, I know it's a bit hypochritical, but I believe atleast one of {Oka, Varsoon} must be scum.

well I said this with you in the bracket a while ago multiple times, but ya I agree.

[mbaki]

YEAH FUCK IT YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW, DICKWEED

VOTE: Oka Pooka

So you agree with me Oka's supertunnel on you is odd? Haha.

[mbaki]

here's the great thing tho

if you think im town you shouldn't be voting me

if you think im scum, you shouldn't be this pissed off at me

therefore this rage is kinda manufactured? town rage usually comes from wow this town sucks i hate all of you

This definitely isn't true. I am pissed at DDL and I think he is scum, and this is not a rare thing either. Your read on someone generally doesn't affect how you emotionally respond to their posting, at least in my experience with myself and others.

[mbaki]

mbaki pls

vote varsoon

this is fake rage

fake

I have thought about it. But, I have also thought about you!scum. If DDL is scum, Varsoon could be a partner sure but his bus makes it unlikely.

[mbaki]

ok but there is a difference of you being pissed at someone because of how they are playing vs throwing a tantrum out of rage

like sure i get pissed at people i scumread but usually i get pissed when people don't listen to me, in the end if they are scum then its respectable, the people i get pissed at are myself for failing or town for not listening

but throwing a tantrum ?

nah man

u dont throw a tantrum at someone u scumread

Varsoon scumread Creature though, not you. At least before.

[mbaki]

Don't waste time defending your slot please, nobody is lynching you this game.

Who's the second scum if you think one is Oka? And I know this was asked, but how much of the game have you read and do you intend on reading more?

Firstly, I was answering pseudo-valid questions, not defending myself.

I'm still trying to work out who the second scum is, however Creature does seem to have a point about a possible Oka/Varsoon team due to the amount of what appears to be flailing going on ITT.

I have skimmed enough to be confident in my scumread on Oka. If I have to give you a hard number I'd say I've skimmed 10% of this game. As I've alluded to, I do intend to read more, but for now I'm finding a lot of potentially useful information in the current activity. I have yet to do any real VCA which is the next thing I'd look into.

I am probably going to be directing most of my content at you now, call it buddying if you want but you're the only confident town read I have and I have hashed everything out with the others already.

A lot of this game is going to hinge on how you choose to form reads aside from Oka!scum here, so yes that's a lot of pressure but you are essentially going to decide the direction.

I want to reiterate I think one scum is in the claims, between Varsoon and Creature and Oka, at least one. Perhaps UB could be to inherit the Rolecop when the traitor dies? But Commuter and Ascetic both being town is a weird combo. With regards to the commuter claim, that is slightly town indicative because only scum has killing power this game, but only slightly.

I don't know what to make of Varsoon's tunnel on Creature, or it breaking.

I scumread Kmd based on night kills and play to a degree, but DDL is significantly more scummy to me and I don't think both are scum which indicates Kmd is town. Additionally, Kmd's play today could be seen as town with how he backed off of me to reevaluate. This could use input too.

These are the things I personally would like to see some insight to from your re-read, because I have had awful reads this game and doubt town can get a win here.

[mbaki]

YEAH FUCK IT YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW, DICKWEED

VOTE: Oka Pooka

when does town say this

I don't think this is AI.

[mbaki]

@Mbaki: could you please explain the DDL scum situation a little better so I can narrow my search?

I don't get what you're asking.

[mbaki]

wow mbaki wagon so good everyone should join me imo

wow im always serious imo

mbaki confirmed scum

I'm quite concerned that these early posts from the scum traitor are signalling to the scum team, assuming they were aware they had a traitor.

Even more concerning is the traitor mis-kill for scum, which implies that the team were not aware of the traitor's existence.

Spoiler:

i'd lynch like 5 other people before mbaki at this point, even though i think Nero is right his play isn't great i don't think the bar is very high right now

mbaki, why don't you townread me despite having the same reaction to Nero's posting?

zzzzzzz

btw nero is my top townread

Don't you have to read the game to get a vibe?

I asked you a question first.

Not a question that has any value.

i'd lynch like 5 other people before mbaki at this point, even though i think Nero is right his play isn't great i don't think the bar is very high right now

Who are these 5 mystery scummers?

yyotta
DDL
brighteyedfish
leodanny
vorkuta

if we're lynching for 'fluff content' or lack of content i think these are all more likely to flip scum than mbaki

This progression on mbaki makes no sense, so it's logical to conclude that the initial posts from rb about mbaki being "confirmed scum," were indeed signalling posts.

It also appears that rb is chainsawing against the mbaki pushes when he is stuck in a tough spot. From this point onwards, mbaki proceeds to attempt to pocket rb, unaware that he is the scum traitor.

As a brief sidenote: I believe every person that rb listed as being preferable to lynch over mbaki, is town.

Spoiler:

...

i dont think u are getting it

i can do all of that

but i think it would be better if i had flips to work off of

badposting

i know we have no flips. that's why im ambivalent between the choices of BEF and DDL.

I would prefer a flip on Yyotta, but a flip is better than no flip.

I'm not going to case someone d1 because I'm not confident in any of my scumreads. The best I can offer is a strong policy choice.

why would you prefer a yyotta flip over DDL or BEF?

how does being not confident make you not able to point out the things you don't like about BEF/DDL?

Why would you be a liability to town?

stop shitposting

I don't really feel like these pushes on Oka are genuine as rb should've moved his vote or questioned him rather than chastising Oka.

I think rb's signalling, his potential PR lurking, and his weak pushes on Oka may have got him killed.

Sigh, this shit again. This was a big discussion on day 2. Also relevant for part of why DDL is scum, so yes, you'll enjoy reading day 2.

[mbaki]

Actually read the rest of your post: I was never "in a tough spot" day 1, and there is no progression from rb there... he always townread me.

[mbaki]

Even more concerning is the traitor mis-kill for scum, which implies that the team were not aware of the traitor's existence.

And yes, the team was aware. They have to be as per normal guidelines.

[mbaki]

Thank you both. So, given that they did know that there was a traitor, then it justifies the argument that rb was signalling as he would think that his team were looking out for him. I think this heavily implicates you, mbaki.

We
Went
Over
This
Day
2

If I was scum, I would be looking for a traitor and therefore I would likely notice rb's crumbs. Additionally, rb townread me, and additionally at least 4 of his 5 scumreads were town with only one probably scum (DDL). Why in the fuck would I night kill him? And I already acknowledge on a surface level those look like crumbs, but they aren't.

Follow your predecessor. Don't gamethrow.

[mbaki]

Thank you both. So, given that they did know that there was a traitor, then it justifies the argument that rb was signalling as he would think that his team were looking out for him. I think this heavily implicates you, mbaki.

Apologies for getting pissed earlier--I'd follow you on Mbaki, tbh.
We should have 1 day of leeway. Chances are you die tonight, so, really
I'm good with whatever.

UNVOTE:

You will not follow him on mbaki

.

[mbaki]

There's also the hypothetical that those are crumbs, which they aren't.

[mbaki]

@Mbaki: could you please explain the DDL scum situation a little better so I can narrow my search?

I don't get what you're asking.

I'm asking you to kindly elaborate on your DDL scumread, as you skipped over that part in the post I referenced; Or, if it's convenient, you could point to the parts in DDL's ISO that are particularly scummy, and which you think require further investigation.

I have answered this. Iso me. If you're going to throw your slot in the shitter I'm not going out of my way to make your life easier. If you actually read my posts and still have questions, ask.

[mbaki]

@mbaki: how am I throwing my slot in the 'shitter' exactly?

Your slot probably had the best reads of anyone this game, and was voting scum. You took that wagon and turned it into a wagon on town for shitty reasons. I do not believe you're as experienced as you insinuated you were to Oka.

And yes, this is me whining, I still think you're town. I can also tell when I'm going to be lynched and this is one of those times.

[mbaki]

I'll self hammer over a no lynch at deadline, that's about it.

You have demonstrated no interest in looking at my posts. I posted my solve with explanations and you didn't address it.

A winning town atmosphere requires good players. A bunch of boy scouts couldn't beat a team of jackasses that play AAA hockey. This analogy is not relevant but I thought it was funny in my high head so I'm posting it anyways.

[mbaki]

Villa: Varsoon, Kmd4390, Creature
Limbo: DrDolittle
Wolf: mbaki, OkaPoka

DrDoLittle subs into scum, if either of the bottom two flip town.

Fun fact: scum players familiar with Creature's meta on MS would never leave him alive.

I think that's all I'll be reading for now, since I'm pretty happy with these reads.

You can see that I do know Creature's meta in my iso, and according to you scum never leave him alive.

Fun fact: your surface level reads are throwing the game.

[mbaki]

I'm pissed because I thought we were boned, then I got a confident scum read on DDL, and he was in all odds going to be lynched today, then Suka subbed and now we probably lose. Nobody cares that none of the night kills make any sense from my POV as they were all people I was working with (or "working" with if you think I'm scum), when there was other options available. I guess you could argue Nero was the only real option there, but rb and Dann definitely weren't. Nobody cares that rb was killed for a reason and had to have had at least 1 read on a scum buddy, and DDL is his last scum read alive. Nobody cares that my play bleeds town anyways.

Would you rather I stop posting? I've accepted I'm going to be the lynch, and agreed to self-vote if needed. I'm not going to stop playing.

[mbaki]

I think Oka and DDL is the best solve I have right now, actually. Cue Oka hammering me.

[mbaki]

If you could lay out things without getting frustrated, it'd help more.
I'm worried the kill spec is all WIFOM.

I thought my frustration was fake?

Night kill spec is not WIFOM, and I hate when people brush it off as that. Killing off a player strongly defending you for the payoff of being able to say you wouldn't make that night kill is incredibly dumb. Dann, who entered the game calling my wagon the dumbest thing he's ever seen, and spent every post after that defending me when it came up, Dann, who was scum read by a good amount of players, including a townie in twilight, Dann, who didn't even have any god damn confident scum reads, is not a person a team with mbaki ever kills. rb, who had at least 4 incorrect scum reads of 5 (and DDL was not high up), this kill is more possible as he was the most town read slot but I still doubt its likely. Nero, who

also

had me as one of his only town reads, the other night kill. This is all while I was getting flak from other slots. You are arguing I killed the 3 players who probably town read me the strongest out of everybody in the game for WIFOM. I know you've played long enough to know NKA can be and is valid.

I have talked about why DDL's scum, but nobody cares to go back and ISO me. I have talked about all of my reads because that's the kind of player I am, and I'm the one who originally said there has to be a scum in the claims and the other is probably a VT.

What do you

want

me to lay out? I've laid out everything there is to, I think. Moongrass asking me some generic bullshit "case DDL" when I've already posted on it and then replied to me with "lol to each their own" when I told him to ISO me is not wanting me to lay things out for the purpose of analysis, its just patronizing.

[mbaki]

Mbaki, are you even considering varsoon scum seriously?

I considered and am considering it. I don't think he is partners with DDL, and I don't think town power is enough if he's scum, and I don't think both you and Creature are likely to be town.

[mbaki]

You should just present everything you understand to be true.
I think it could be DDL here, too. I don't know. I feel as though, if you were scum with Creature, as I've proposed before, it really behooves you to keep me around and lock into saying it's DDL/Oka as scum. Does that make sense?

I don't get what you're asking for.

If you think I'm scum with Creature, lynch Creature here. Creature DDL is not an impossible solve. I will not be helping you unless it's a survival vote because DDL wagon doesn't come back though as I don't really think he's scum.

[mbaki]

I'm going to hammer myself in 6 hours. Enjoy losing. Bye.

[mbaki]

Because nobody is reading my fucking posts and I'm over this game. You are going into LyLo in a game with 0 scum lynches. The play of almost everybody this game makes no sense to me, I forget how this site can be.

[mbaki]

You are going into LyLo in a game with 0 scum lynches

I'm not "giving up", but I have spent a LOT of effort on this game and these votes are a slap in the face. How many games have you won going into LyLo with no scum lynched? There are no associations to look for, by far the best tells. Only ones I can think of are white flag games with good lobbies, this is neither.

I think Oka and DDL is a reasonably likely solve, there is hope. But if I'm wrong on DDL and its Kmd (not likely), or if I'm wrong on Oka and its Varsoon or Creature (slightly more likely), then we lose a game where scum fucking killed themselves off.

I do have much harsher words I want to say, but I won't. And Creature, RC is more of an MS player than MU. I barely play on this site because people can get better reads in turbos on MU than with 2 weeks here.

[mbaki]

It says something that you're so conf biased that even an experienced player like yourself sees scum in every post.

Pushing an Oka lynch is dumb. If we lynch Oka and he flips town, I'm the next lynch and we lose. DDL isn't town, so if we lynch him I'm still maybe going to be lynched (though I think unlikely) but then there's still another day. I am not super confident Oka is scum, and that's a game losing move.

Oh wait this is a surface level game, anybody but myself is good let's lynch Oka!!

Please stop talking about me Moongrass. I don't want to get insulty and I am the lynch today, you got your wish.

[mbaki]

And take the site elitism with you, man.
Accuracy of reads is entirely based on content exchange, no matter how little or how much, though it's generally the case that when there is more, they're more accurate. You've probably just played far more 2 day games and the ones where people were right are memorable; it's like you claiming a shotgun is more accurate than a pistol because at least some of the shot will always hit the target.

Nonsense.

No, I agree with the fact that more content and more time helps town. It just illustrates the difference in caliber of play. I love how you're using memory bias completely generically; I track my win rates and read accuracies to see my common mistakes, but good try. This is the lowest in over 6 months based on the metrics I go by fwiw. Because again, I've played a shit game too.

Nonsense.

[mbaki]

Please stop talking about me Moongrass. I don't want to get insulty and I am the lynch today, you got your wish.

I'm doing what town should do. I'm pushing for a winning lynch chain, if that means diffusing any of the confusion you're throwing into the game and discussing where you're going wrong, then that is what I'll do. Insult away, I'm not here to please you, I'm here to win.

How can {DDL, Oka} be your solve if you question whether Oka is town?

Because I am not 100% confident in my reads because I'm not a delusional jackass?

[mbaki]

This is some Amrock level scum complaining tbh.

I would expect Amrock to be posting way more than this.

On MU my record against Amrock (not including same alignment) is like 15-6 if I remember right. I haven't played with him on here.

[mbaki]

Its kinda crazy how rarely we are aligned, disappointing cause I actually like playing with him.

What does diffusing my confusion (wtf does that nonsense even mean) help if I am going to hammer myself in a few hours? You got your lynch. Don't need to continue being ignorant.

If you wanted to discuss where I'm going wrong, you'd have a discussion with me. Not refuse to read my posts, brush me off when I don't recase something I've posted a lot about, and insist I'm scum constantly through a garbage tunnel.

It says something that rather than push for an Oka lynch, which mbaki has said is a preferred lynch for him today; that mbaki chooses to feel sorry for himself.

There is no way you can seriously think this counts as trying to have a discussion with me. The post isn't even directed at me, it refers to me indirectly, implying that it is talking about me rather than to me.

[mbaki]

Because I am not 100% confident in my reads because I'm not a delusional jackass?

You're 100% confident in DDL though, and you won't explain why. Maybe you're a sane jackass.

I'm not 100% confident, though a lot closer. I have explained why. I told you, read my posts and question them and then I will have a discussion. If you won't give me the level of respect to read my posts, I won't give you the level of respect to discuss it with you.

[mbaki]

Apparently trying to guess who mbaki is is more interesting than the actual game.

Mbaki is Mbaki.

Your first post I've agreed with in a while.

Where have I chosen not to engage in discussion?

[mbaki]

DDL's progression on my slot is nonsense.

{oka, mbaki} is still my solve. maybe oka for creature, but i'm leaning more heavily on oka.

After d2, it is ridiculous to propose I'm partners with Oka and anybody critically reading can see that.

He went from townreading me through my bad reads to setting up his shitty attempt to mislynch my slot.

mbakiv - town

At this point in the game, I was his strongest town read.

The next relevant mention is defending me:

Still prefer mbaki lynch to vorkuta, though revelations are interesting. We can lynch vorkuta tomorrow.

As to why because you guys are going to ask.

mbaki's self vote pushes it over the edge for me. The difference between mbaki selfvoting and your typical rage!town self-voter is that mbaki isn't the type of player who self-votes, based on what he said about yyotta. Either he was lying about his opinion on yyotta or he was manufacturing rage. pick whatever reason you want, mbaki is the scummier player.

? Oka are you scum ?

the revelations looks on my end like a smoking gun

your case on mbaki seems dubious at best

Still townreading me here:

I'm against lynching mbaki today. I think hes town, but I am open to changing reads on this slot as more information comes

And that was when there was active casing going on against my slot.

And then finally, the switch around

after BEF had been hammered

:

im feeling better about kmd as town.

mbaki's 2008 pings me in a really bad way

He town read me to let me loltunnel three town lynches (although really, I had nothing to do with the BEF lynch, he was l-1 before I read the thread). Once my bad reads were exhausted, he switched gears completely. I commented on his callout of 2008 being bad at the time, too.


His suggestion that the mislynches are my fault is also ludicrous. He was a big advocate of lynching BEF, and didn't even defend Vork. Hell, probably one of his longest posts this game:

I think I would prefer a BEF lynch today.
1 - I think there's at most one scum in {BEF, Vork} and {BEF, mbaki}. That role flipping red clears our
2 - With conf bias, his wagon hop on me is extremely lazy and antitown ("for the sake of progress")
3 - I agree with what people said. BEF's reads today are extremely weak, and they feel more like continuing to set up mislynches.
4 - Meta-wise, this game reminds me of the last time BEF played scum, rather than BEF played town. His scum play seems more confident, vocally fights with frequent-posters, and then gradually shirks when there's more pressure.
5 - The story that rb-BEF teammates makes sense, although its weaker than rb-vork.

I'm still ok with Vork lynch, but right now, I would prefer a flip here instead. VOTE: bef

He subtly supports the Vork lynch, knowing it'll go through with me tunnelling it, and angles for the BEF lynch the next day. And, again, even if you don't believe that, it is indisputable he did not defend any of the mislynches. Of course, he voted Vork earlier when it was less certain:

VOTE: vorkuta

There is also no explanation from him why I would kill Dann, the person who entered the game and called my wagon retarded (it was), me his top town read, and kept that throughout the game. There is, however, the counter explanation that he wanted me lynched today and wanted to get rid of my champion to make it less problematic.

His Kmd progression might be even worse than mine. He starts off with a scumread with posts such as this:

i town read oka, and to a lesser degree creature. I don't think Kmd is town. His ISO is a lot of commentary, and like a total of 1 scum read in yyotta?
VOTE: kmd

I still pref KMD. Willing vorkuta over yyota. Wouldn't be too opposed to my lynch either. I'm a liability on town at this rate especially with this player list

make kmd point out where he has reads tomorrow. (hint he doesn't)

Of course, there aren't many mentions because he barely existed d1. He doesn't mention his top scumread again until:

im feeling better about kmd as town.

mbaki's 2008 pings me in a really bad way

Again, same post, same terrible progression out of nowhere. These aren't the reads of a town player trying to sort, they're the reads of a player changing reads as they're optimal for him to do so.

I think one of the VT claims is scum (Kmd or DDL), and the other is a PR though they may have claimed their real PR.

Creature probably still town?

So in Varsoon, Suka, Oka.

There is normally 1-2 strong PRs in a game with a traitor, so this would imply Suka is town because really there are barely any PRs at all. Varsoon could possibly be a scum UB, but I think Oka is more likely.

Follower and Voyeur are both kinda weak, and then the UB to recover one of them plus a commuter. Hm.

I really think you guys need to claim modifiers for setup spec to work. Otherwise, though, I'm sitting at a DDL and Oka solve, and Kmd as scum over DDL or Varsoon / Suka as scum over Oka if it comes to that.

Why don't you go show me what scumhunting you've done? I've been solving actively since day 1.

yeah this is the part that amazes me. I refuse to believe anyone is this bad at the game while "posting" and "thinking" so much. thus, im inching slowly towards you being scum

my scumhunting at least involves taking clear stances on players. yours is dodgy.

You aren't slowly inching, you're actively pushing me. And, food for thought: it takes two people for a misread to happen. BEF and Vorkuta both pushed each other, so don't act like those lynches are my fault.

And again, you also pushed BOTH of them.

If my reads are shit, I think every single player here qualifies for that too.

also all your crap about how youre done with this game, and how this game is hopeless and how you hate this game can just fuck off. if you dont want to play then replace out.

(nothing about your alignment) That mindset is garbage and a lot of the bad about this site. 5+ replace outs per game should not be normal. You can't be having a bad game of soccer, or CoD, or etc. and then decide to replace out mid game and let a new team mate come in. That isn't how competitive games work.

ps. im amazed at your gall to put out posts 1000 posts apart and argue inconsistency.

I didn't pick out posts. I used ctrl F mbaki and then Kmd in your iso and selected all relevant results. YOU CHOOSING NOT TO REFER TO US FOR "1000 posts" IS YOUR CHOICE, and NOT A TOWNIE ONE. There was no pursuing of your scumread of Kmd or stated reevaluation for "1000 posts".

The posts around these in my iso also have sorting of Creature, Oka, etc.

[mbaki]

Also, lol at you quoting myself having generally "good" reads by standards of this game, IE both your slot as town before it was popular and Dann.

[mbaki]

I'm sitting at a DDL and Oka solve, and Kmd as scum over DDL or Varsoon / Suka as scum over Oka if it comes to that.

Oh and this is extra great, because I've had that "convenient for me to have" Oka / DDL solve since before you joined the god damn game.

But again, you would have known this if you read my posts.

[mbaki]

If they are, they're winning this game. I'm not paranoia lynching there ever, Suka's play bought me.

[mbaki]

Why would you ask that then, lol.

[mbaki]

At that point, you were my top town read. Suka is now though.

[mbaki]

Don't worry, if its LyLo I won't quick vote but I highly doubt I don't vote DDL in any world.

[mbaki]

I can get on board with an Oka lynch as long as people promise to actually evaluate between myself and DDL tomorrow, regardless of how Oka flips. If Varsoon agrees to this, I'll vote it with you. I know Creature and Kmd will.

[mbaki]

Moongrass, completely in isolation what's your Kmd read? Like, if you remove your reads on myself and DDL, is he still town? I'm just covering all bases here.

[mbaki]

Not even sure if mbaki is scum here but we lose if we follow him

Literally varsoon is going to get away with this because nobody is taking me seriously

Follow me? Following me is lynching DDL today. Nobody is following me for shit except for Suka (RiP).

Your Varsoon points have not been compelling, I've read them. The strongest point in favor of him scum (imo) is to inherit the role from the traitor. Otherwise, nothing. The fact nobody is agreeing with you should tell you that you need to push harder. Guess I'm hypocritical, though.

[mbaki]

I think I was too harsh with both of you two earlier, huh.

[mbaki]

In Oka's defense, most slots in this game have been useless, either for most of the game or at one point or another.

[mbaki]

No time to read Oka's walls now, I'll get to it later.

It would benefit town to think from a scum mindset at this stage of the game.

With two scum left, they are undoubtedly preparing for LyLo tomorrow. They must instill paranoia, whilst distancing from each other, in order to achieve a swift victory.

This is why resistance to an Oka lynch, and DDL vs mbaki, is concerning.

Varsoon clearly has no team. Creature is Creature. Kmd doesn't look to be setting up for anything.

Oka, DDL, and mbaki, on the otherhand are all distancing, while soft pushing each other.

The scumteam HAS to be within these three.

I am definitely not soft pushing DDL. Oka, sure.

[mbaki]

I am definitely not soft pushing DDL. Oka, sure.

You aren't particularly concerned with being convincing enough to get him lynched. I consider that soft pushing.

Are you kidding? Read the thread before you subbed in. I even got the fucking votes, your slot and then Varsoon joined me, Kmd unvoted me to reconsider, and Creature expressed intent as well.

[mbaki]

Why do you scumread Oka?

@mbaki.

I don't have a long case. I'll answer when I have more time.

[mbaki]

you need to stop being blind to kmd

Do you have meta this is town!Kmd and couldn't be scum!Kmd? Don't need to say how.

I have town kmd meta, nothing to compare it to. If you read his ISO, and look at some of his stances, you should see two things:

1. He is not aligned with the traitor, nor does he make sense as a scumbuddy to anyone here.

2. He pushes players, and then gives hard stances that are based on logic I don't see coming from scum.

The first is hilariously assumptive, and the second he does as scum too. A lot. His town and scum games are very similar. I don't really want to go down this rabbit hole because I don't really think he's scum, though.

[mbaki]

I am definitely not soft pushing DDL. Oka, sure.

You aren't particularly concerned with being convincing enough to get him lynched. I consider that soft pushing.

Are you kidding? Read the thread before you subbed in. I even got the fucking votes, your slot and then Varsoon joined me, Kmd unvoted me to reconsider, and Creature expressed intent as well.

That does seem like a joke in comparison to your nihilistic attitude when I asked for your cooperation. If you are so sure he is scum, why were you ready to potentially game throw by being stubborn towards someone you supposedly townread?

If you don't care enough to read my posts, then you aren't going to care enough to read my replies. I responded quickly when you did go into my iso and pick out posts.

[mbaki]

The first is hilariously assumptive, and the second he does as scum too. A lot. His town and scum games are very similar. I don't really want to go down this rabbit hole because I don't really think he's scum, though.

Why do you feel the need to continue to discredit my reads for no purpose?

You are far too manipulative of the game state, and your tone shifts are ridiculous. We lose with you here, town or scum.

VOTE: mbaki

Because you are being way too assumptive and Kmd will confirm I'm right. How on Earth is that discrediting? You did the

exact same thing to your townread, Creature

, when he said Oka was posting too much to be scum. You said Kmd was taking stances too strong to be scum. You pointed out to Creature that Oka posts more as scum than as town, and I pointed out Kmd does the exact same shit in his scum game. The difference? Doesn't fit your arrogant confbiased attitude.

It wasn't "discrediting your reads", I fucking agreed with you that Kmd was town. You were wrong about something, and I pointed that out.

[mbaki]

It's almost like we had this discussion day 2.

[mbaki]

You lost the right to my self hammer. If Kmd or Oka are town, they can come to the conclusion to mislynch me themselves.

[mbaki]

Say you are town. Is it worse at endgame and I show green and your effort has been worthless? PS its deeply concerning you dont have any other town-reads other than obv-claim town?

If you are town, this game is done. Nice random shade?

[mbaki]

I've reread a few parts of the game, and I can see a possible scum Creature.

It's almost like I said this already !!

[mbaki]

Scum's plan is to mislynch me, sacrifice DDL, and then win because whether the last scum is Oka or not I think they're going to position themselves well enough off of DDL lynch for the dub.

[mbaki]

I don't care enough to make this a big thing but 2789 is dumb.

Oka, I have not read any yet, and since I'm going to be the lynch today and nobody cares what I'm posting anyways I doubt I'm going to.

[mbaki]

Neither was the month+ I spent on this game, but here we are.

[mbaki]

You strive to be better you hypocritical jackass. You're sheeping somebody who wasn't here for most of the game, on town. I am still not voting you, despite you being the other major wagon AND being cased hard AND you voting me AND you actively refusing to put any real effort into the game, because for better or worse I still think you're town. I did my job of sorting you, despite the huge lack of help on your end via a lack of produced content. You didn't play the game, and now when you're back all you're doing is throwing. Moongrass is pushing me as partners with Oka, which is ludicrous reading day 2. I would say he is singlehandedly losing the endgame for town (because again - before he joined, DDL was in all odds the lynch, both his strongest town read (Creature) and his own god damn slot were voting it), but that wouldn't make sense because you're choosing to sheep him. Not that you show any interest in questioning him, no, that would be crazy! Even though he is pushing all lynches away from your top scum read, Creature, which you barely pursued at all. In fact, I don't think you've asked him about his Creature read once since he's joined despite that being your top scum read? Christ, writing this post I almost feel like I'm casing you and I should vote you here, but (and maybe I'm dumb for thinking this) I still don't think you're scum and lynching a town!you over me here is a game losing move.

[mbaki]

Man, you don't get it. I don't want to vote Creature. You should be engaging with Moongrass about why he town reads Creature, because you think he's town, and hell even without you he just showed he's thinking about Creature scum. You think I'm scum, even if I vote Creature with you (which I don't want to) there will be no more votes following. Oka casing you and getting almost nowhere (Creature's vote) is the same thing that you're doing with Creature on a smaller scale. I appreciate you moving your vote, but I don't think you are getting my point

[mbaki]

Yeah ok I dont see varsoon getting lynched today.

Ill hammer mbaki later

And here you go Moongrass. Please don't address me again, you did your job of throwing the game, no more casing or bitching about my AtE is needed from you.

The first is hilariously assumptive, and the second he does as scum too. A lot. His town and scum games are very similar. I don't really want to go down this rabbit hole because I don't really think he's scum, though.

Why do you feel the need to continue to discredit my reads for no purpose?

You are far too manipulative of the game state, and your tone shifts are ridiculous. We lose with you here, town or scum.

VOTE: mbaki

Because you are being way too assumptive and Kmd will confirm I'm right. How on Earth is that discrediting? You did the

exact same thing to your townread, Creature

, when he said Oka was posting too much to be scum. You said Kmd was taking stances too strong to be scum. You pointed out to Creature that Oka posts more as scum than as town, and I pointed out Kmd does the exact same shit in his scum game. The difference? Doesn't fit your arrogant confbiased attitude.

It wasn't "discrediting your reads", I fucking agreed with you that Kmd was town. You were wrong about something, and I pointed that out.

No response to this? Huh? Your reason for voting me is stupid and you have no defense past conf bias?

I'm certainly not consuming any of the WIFOM mbaki is selling.

Hilarious. The classic newbie "everything I don't like is WIFOM" counter.

There is no way you can seriously think this counts as trying to have a discussion with me. The post isn't even directed at me, it refers to me indirectly, implying that it is talking about me rather than to me.

That is not an example of me trying to communicate with you. There are examples where you've chosen self-destruction over discussion.

This is an example of me trying to spark a discussion with the town.

So what is an example of you trying to communicate with me? Don't answer this, its rhetorical, because the only time you did was asking me to case DDL. I did that, you elected not to respond to my case, only after you missed huge posts in my iso that a ctrl + F 20 second search would find.

I'm sitting at a DDL and Oka solve, and Kmd as scum over DDL or Varsoon / Suka as scum over Oka if it comes to that.

Oh and this is extra great, because I've had that "convenient for me to have" Oka / DDL solve since before you joined the god damn game.

But again, you would have known this if you read my posts.

Reminder I posted this before any point of this argument, and came to the same solving conclusion as you first. First person to call Oka scum here. First person to call out DDL. These are the slots in PoE, shocker?

I think one of the VT claims is scum (Kmd or DDL), and the other is a PR though they may have claimed their real PR.

Creature probably still town?

So in Varsoon, Suka, Oka.

There is normally 1-2 strong PRs in a game with a traitor, so this would imply Suka is town because really there are barely any PRs at all. Varsoon could possibly be a scum UB, but I think Oka is more likely.

Follower and Voyeur are both kinda weak, and then the UB to recover one of them plus a commuter. Hm.

I really think you guys need to claim modifiers for setup spec to work. Otherwise, though, I'm sitting at a DDL and Oka solve, and Kmd as scum over DDL or Varsoon / Suka as scum over Oka if it comes to that.

Same solve everybody has now, but I posted it first. Luck!??? It took me posting the seperate solve brackets multiple times before people got on board.

Nope, I have not had a good game, but I'm sure as hell not as bad as you. You didn't even respond to my DDL posting, still haven't. Neither has he! AtE is your "trigger" because again, that's a common newbie trigger, you're lying about being experienced and I don't know why.

After Oka hammers me, take a long, hard think about why I flipped town here. If you use this as a learning opportunity for why you suck and how to be better, I won't hold any grudge. If you go into post game blaming me for your own stupid mistakes (this is at Varsoon and Moongrass now), then screw you and I'll enjoy avoiding you from now on.

To reiterate one important thing again:

you are pushing myself and Oka as a team. Myself and Oka, after day 2.

Never mind Moongrass completely ignoring all discussion we had day 2, and his predecessor, and his top town read, to push his own stupid shit. And he complains about people not following dead's reads (a legitimate issue... you know what a good time to follow dead people's reads is? Every dead townie except Vorkuta, including both night kills, town read me. I think literally all of them scum read DDL).

I know that towns do not listen to reads from the dead, but you should listen now.

Like, tell me this is not the most hypocritical shit ever.

You

should listen to Dan, and Nero, and even Fish who I beefed with for most of the game and he

still

showed more reevaluation than you.

[mbaki]

Nah. Moongrass thinks Creature is town based on rolespec, iirc.
Not all that concerned.

I think its more on play. Role spec does implicate Oka, but I said that about 20 times earlier so I don't feel a need to rehash it.

And I also think that Moon also proposed Creature as a lynch for tomorrow, after you flip?
Regardless.

Unless I'm misremembering, he wants the next two lynches to be Oka and DDL. I think that's the best, but there won't be room for a Creature lynch if either of them is town, so if you are right then that's a loss. As the hypothetical townie with good reads vs a bunch of knuckleheads, its your job to carry, get what I mean?

But, Varsoon, I do still believe Oka is more likely to be scum than Creature. I am not sure who is more likely scum between you and Creature, its pretty close for me right now.

[mbaki]

Moongrass is off the table, ya. Kmd, there are points in both directions, if he's scum I think he just wins here anyways so its fine to rule him out.

[mbaki]

UNVOTE:

What's our time left?

A day and a half.

I think it's likely DDL and Oka.

If DDL is town, its Kmd, but I feel very strongly DDL isn't town.

If Oka is town, could be you or Creature, Creature might be a little more likely but I don't know right now. If we flip DDL today we get to lynch 2 of you anyways, so there's a bit of breathing room.

Do you disagree anywhere here?

[mbaki]

Remind me what your solve is?

[mbaki]

Why is the wagon gone already?

[mbaki]

I'm struggling to accept that Creature could have changed his meta this much because realistically, that's the only thing really giving him town credence.

This is my thoughts. Creature is like 3rd or 4th tier lynch for me right now.

[mbaki]

This stinks of self-preservation and distancing.

Sure, I'm trying to bus my buddy to preserve myself instead of just sticking with DDL.

You know he won't be lynched. A vote isn't enough. Tell us why we should vote Oka?

Huh? DDL has almost been lynched twice, you yourself gave intent.

[mbaki]

I thought so.

VOTE: Creature

Buddy is either Oka, or mbaki. Congratulations Varsoon, you get the lynch you wanted.

Creature busses, why would it not be DDL?

Granted, I know I get lynched if Creature flips red here and if that happens I will be much more accepting of it because I admit our associations are mostly soft defense of each other. But there is still going to be the lynch between Oka and DDL after, and I don't get why Oka would still be scum in that world?

[mbaki]

VOTE: Suka

You fucked up. I'm vt.

N1 - Varsoon - no action (consistent with claim)
N2 - mbaki - towny action, no need to claim
N3 - kmd - towny action, no need to claim

VT is not "townie action", it's no action.

Why I don't get paranoid of mbaki rn

Why can't that just be scum who didn't act N2 and wants an investigative role lynched?

________________

I'm not gonna be able to do this now, sorry. My mind is fried and I need a good night's sleep. Maybe I'll try again tonight, but tomorrow is looking more likely. I don't go back to work until February 5 so once I get caught up, I'm here a lot more.

You are aware deadline is a bit over a day from now, right?

[mbaki]

This stinks of self-preservation and distancing.

Sure, I'm trying to bus my buddy to preserve myself instead of just sticking with DDL.

You know he won't be lynched. A vote isn't enough. Tell us why we should vote Oka?

Huh? DDL has almost been lynched twice, you yourself gave intent.

What are you asking?

Is "you know he won't be lynched" not referring to Creature's hypothetical bus vote on DDL?

[mbaki]

Oh.

Oka and Creature could both be a team, I guess, though an odd setup choice. But I feel like this post count is well out of Creature's scum range? He has had relatively good reads, though I believe he said himself he normally busses as scum so that would make sense.

[mbaki]

Creature's "good reads" also show a few TMI slips imo. I'll bring them up if people request it. I'm phone posting atm.

So you're dropping your insistence that rb crumbed to me (more likely) or DDL (less likely)?

Do you really think DDL and I could be TvT? Because man, I know confbias can affect me too, but I thought about it a long time and I still just really don't see him as town, previous posts pointing out why.

I will say Oka could technically satisfy the criteria that "rb had to be scumreading at least one scum", but again, I think scum DDL fits that bill more.

But also, now do you see why I am so frustrated with my mislynch? I would love for it to be DDL and Oka, but if it isn't, we only have room for error once and that means a loss if we use that error on me. You are now thinking scum is someone not in us 3, which means you should be able to see the problem here.

[mbaki]

I thought so.

VOTE: Creature

Buddy is either Oka, or mbaki.

Congratulations Varsoon, you get the lynch you wanted.

I thought this was what you were pushing?

[mbaki]

Short answer: I am very competitive. It isn't as frustrating getting mislynched for things out of one's control such as scum faking a guilty or for traitor crumbs (as was a discussion on day 2), but it is here when I really feel you should be able to see I'm town.

And, to amend the above, I am trying to stay calm for the remainder of my game. I was hoping you would address my posts similar to how Varsoon did, but moving your vote is better than nothing. If Creature gets lynched, I agree our associations are bad and that's on me, hence why my above "interrupting" post was asking you to work through DDL and Oka because it is going to come to that in a Creature!scum world.

[mbaki]

Neat. I think Moongrass is understanding why this game is so frustrating.

[mbaki]

I don't buy that Oka/mbaki can't be buddies. Oka posts a lot, and often with his team. mbaki omguses you SOD as an excuse not to vote anyone else. Oka tunnels Varsoon for similar reasons. I can see it, and I'm pretty sure Oka is using his case being rejected to cover his frozen behavior at this stage.

In the interest of complete disclosure, I also tend to theatre a lot as scum, and a lot means interacting with teammates about as much as I do with townies.

I don't think our day 2 interactions can be scum vs scum, but that's a discussion I'll deal with happily if Oka is lynched and flips scum.

[mbaki]

mbaki has no excuse now

and ddl + moongrass promised to read it so

@creature against a traitor setup? i think thats ok

You're right, I do owe it a read.

[mbaki]

moongrass you do see that varsoon is relatively likely town due to his claim and role, right. do you think oka's resistance to this idea is scum-death-tunnel or town-oka being dense?

This isn't town Oka. Town!Oka isn't dense, nor very confident in his reads.

[citation needed]

Can you show a town game where you case in a similar manner and confidence?

[mbaki]

I don't think our day 2 interactions can be scum vs scum

Why?

The amount of emotion I had towards Oka, I don't think I could fake that as scum. Oka's reasons for pushing me almost got me lynched there, and he had nothing to do with my wagon dissipating either if I recall he was still voting me last, so in the world where we are buddies he went for a super emotional hard bus day 2 after shooting a teammate. Also, he pushed me based on traitor crumbs, which is not something he can change his mind on so it has to be a committed bus.

[mbaki]

Do you think follower + voyeur + ascetic + 2-shot commuter would be sufficient power for town?

Idts

I agree too. Especially because ascetic is negative utility (arguably, for this setup) and commuter is very close to 0.

moongrass you do see that varsoon is relatively likely town due to his claim and role, right. do you think oka's resistance to this idea is scum-death-tunnel or town-oka being dense?

This isn't town Oka. Town!Oka isn't dense, nor very confident in his reads.

[citation needed]

Can you show a town game where you case in a similar manner and confidence?

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=76814

Don't be an asshole please and judgmental thanks
xoxo

How is that question judgmental man, its game related.

[mbaki]

First step is having everyone read my three walls so we can work from there.

The problem is mostly the setup spec: it feels like town is underpowered without Varsoon's role.

This, and I believe commuter and ascetic are unlikely to be town, and I town read Creature's play more than yours, and his role is a little bit townier too.

@Moongrass, Oka looks pretty similar ish to this game there? As in, I don't see a huge lack of confidence that would be a giveaway. I gave it a quick skim though, I might read it a bit more in depth if I have time.

[mbaki]

I am officially locking Varsoon as town for the remainder of the game after reflecting. GF asleep on my right arm so no lengthy left hand mobile post.

[mbaki]

about mbaki?

selfvoting and threatening to self hammer are def the scummiest things i find

It was not a threat.

[mbaki]

But then Varsoon would know what result to fake... what?

[mbaki]

Marvelous.

[mbaki]

There are 17 hours. I am fine with us doing Oka if a DDL lynch isn't happening.

[mbaki]

He's scum, I don't really care if he thinks you aren't a commuter if you're scum. I personally think there's no way scum fake claims that and its clearly a real role claim (maybe without the modifier) regardless, and this is just him buying a day for Oka by mislynching me.

[mbaki]

DDL.

[mbaki]

Moon
Creature
Oka
Varsoon
Drdoolittle
Mbaki

Kmd's reads make me wonder if. DDL/mbaki is TvT.

I thought about it, and had him as a scum read before today. Don't know. Dann and others scum read him hard. But, I am very sure on DDL and I am very sure only one of the VT claims is scum which makes him likely town in my eyes.

I'm going to be around for the next ~8 hours, though not sober for all of it.

[mbaki]

VOTE: OkaPoka

I'll vote this soon if DDL wagon doesn't kick, which I'm doubting at this point.

[mbaki]

Moongrass
Varsoon


Creature

Kmd
Oka
DDL

This is about where I am at.

[mbaki]

Dann and others scum read him hard.

They scum read you pretty hard too. I think DDL is townier than you simply for the fact that they were willing to lynch you even if it meant they would be lynched too. They were also willing to confirm creature, and haven't tried to manipulate the game state at all.

I was willing to lynch him too, knowing I get lynched "too". The fuck does that even mean?

And no, they didn't. Dann had me as his top tr. Nero had me as town. rb the nk had me as town. Fish had me as town. Are you joking?

[mbaki]

I feel like voting Oka, but that'd leave mbaki as the hammer.

And this is a problem why?

[mbaki]

Varsoon is town Kmd. He is close to Moongrass levels of town, I would be willing to lose if he's scum. You do not ever vote there if you are town and I am lynched here.

[mbaki]

I rather lynch Suka or Mbaki. I'd compromise on DDL though.

VOTE: Nero Cain

u wanna talk about this supposed scum read on me?

Oh sorry I must be misreading DDL as mbaki.

That was when I was pushing him too. Read on in his iso. You're picking posts from the first 30% of day 1.

[mbaki]

You've not considered DDL being town once and you only turned on him once he voted you SOD. This is in line with other people suspecting you getting lynched.

I thought he was town enough to not hammer his wagon day 1, and he was in my scum pool then too. And your argument is based on 1 lynch, Vorkuta, because Fish town read me at the time he died to a degree and YYotta did not give any reads at all.

How is how people perceive you even an argument for your alignment? If people were town reading you then why would scum leave you alive?

Because they thought they could mislynch me, which they were right about based on how today's going?

@mbaki: You're very aware of how people perceived you. I think it says something that people who suspected you were lynched and people who townread you were NK'd.

Yes, I am a very self aware player. I know who has what reads on me whenever possible. That is part of how I read people.

Offering WIFOM as a means to townread you over another is silly and illogical.

This is how I know you are lying or misguided when you say you are experienced. Inexperienced players brush off NKA as WIFOM. Experienced players do not. It is a key difference.

I am not going to have another tantrum, you can hammer me if you wish. Good luck on the Oka / DDL solve if you do, Creature or Kmd scum probably win here but I don't think that's avoidable.

[mbaki]

VOTE: Oka

Enjoy the hammer unless Moongrass hammers me first, Creature.

[mbaki]

Of course you ninja me with the vote.

I made it clear I would vote Oka earlier too, I've said it a couple times.

I think if Oka is town, I get lynched tomorrow and we lose. If DDL is town we lose too, but that way it can at least be on my terms and he just isn't imo. Still has not replied to my case against him despite it being brought up a few times.

But I've said my piece, and nobody listened, so yes, Oka can be lynched. He has enough scum equity it isn't the worst vote in the world.

I guess I do have one more thing to add: I did not vote Creature or Varsoon today when the wagons presented themselves. Meh. I don't think that means much anyways, don't really know why I'm typing it.

[mbaki]

Do you want to discuss Kmd vs DDL? Because as of now, I am very likely voting DDL tomorrow regardless of how this flips. You are the only person proposing Kmd scum here, so if you want that to happen I think you need to justify it if you have anything.

[mbaki]

What do you mean by implicate people?

[mbaki]

Oka pushed very hard for Varsoon (and Kmd shaded him), and Creature was at l-1 IIRC and pushed very hard by Varsoon. I did not take the opportunity to go for either, despite myself being the other main wagon. It doesn't mean a ton because people think me and Creature are a team though, meh.

My philosophy in mafia is you should be an open book. You call it confusion, but I call it laying out everything I'm thinking. I am well aware it can look scummy.

[mbaki]

Why didn't you go for either of them in lieu of omgus voting DDL?

I didn't OMGUS vote DDL. I think he is the most likely to be scum by far. Look at my perspective posts, that is the kind of case that I usually find to be consistently right. He never follows up on his scum read, never shows any introspection on his other reads. He reflectively town read me day 1 when I defended him, and that was about it.

I don't really think Kmd voting me here is town indicative either, but I can't account for that. There literally isn't room in a game like this. If Kmd is scum, then we lose, and therefore he has to be town - unless you have a better argument than wanting to mislynch myself and DDL to end the game, but that only works if myself and DDL are town which I don't think he is.

[mbaki]

Wow I'm getting huge dejavu, Moongrass have you played on MU or under another name here? Your play sounds super familiar to someone I've played with before.

[mbaki]

If you don't want to say who you are, that's fine, I'm the same. I am curious though. I don't think I'll guess it, your play and posting patterns just feel super familiar.

Can you at least respond to my DDL case? It feels lock to me.

[mbaki]

I'd rather not spend time clogging up the thread arguing surface level scum tells. If you and DDL 1v1 tomorrow that's your prerogative.

Progression is not a service level scum tell.

What do you make of Creature saying the team is myself and Varsoon, prepping for Oka's town flip in this hypothetical scum Creature scenario?

[mbaki]

viewtopic.php?p=10654937#p10654937 viewtopic.php?p=10655143#p10655143
I very much feel like both my original case, and then his awful reply are kind of slam dunk. He didn't refute my reply.

[mbaki]

prepping for Oka's town flip in this hypothetical scum Creature scenario?

If I think the team is you and Varsoon, who do you think I am more likely to hammer between you and Oka?

If Oka is town and you're scum, then it doesn't matter which of us you hammer. Jokes on you because I'm not L-1.

Varsoon is town, as is Moongrass. If Varsoon is scum, its game over, because I've accepted there's little way scum gets a UB to inherit a rolecop in an already super low town power game.

[mbaki]

I'm going to be drinking when I'm off work in 2 hours, so I'm probably done then.

[mbaki]

there's little way scum gets a UB

What if his UB claim is actually fake?

If he knew to fake that he inherited Nero's role, something none of us commented on, then all the power to him. It is a good fake claim if that's what it is. Not that I haven't seen plays that level before, but occam's razor / just because something is possible doesn't mean its likely / etc. Just a lot of things about his claim are believable enough that I buy it.

[mbaki]

How my claim makes his claim more believable though?

What are you asking? His role works well with the existing weak town PRs. It doesn't need your role to exist to be credible.

This. Low town power means UB has low swing, and swing is the biggest issue with the role.

[mbaki]

I agree, though I thought that was already the plan.

Meanwhile, that doesn't give us space to sort out myself / DDL / Kmd.

[mbaki]

Would UB inherit ascetic? That would really suck for Varsoon if Oka was the first death.

If Oka is scum aligned and Varsoon is town, this isn't an issue.

I believe they should inherit Ascetic from the same alignment, but I haven't seen that interaction so can't say for sure.

@Mod

could provide the best answer.

[mbaki]

Both roles could be bs, which I can see, and which you may have slipped when you said you thought both scum were VT claims.

Your x-shot role doesn't make sense with the UB. Oka's role doesn't make sense full stop. Oka wouldn't leave Suka alone about whether or not she was x-shot. You defended my push on Oka by asking me to prove his role didn't make sense.

My role can be proved if Varsoon targets me

Also, why tf would Oka fakeclaim ascetic if Suka hinted targeting Oka?

Nobody thinks ascetic is a fake claim, as far as I know.

[mbaki]

I don't understand how you people can't see that Varsoon isn't scum.

Ahem.

[mbaki]

Would UB inherit ascetic? That would really suck for Varsoon if Oka was the first death.

If Oka is scum aligned and Varsoon is town, this isn't an issue.

I believe they should inherit Ascetic from the same alignment, but I haven't seen that interaction so can't say for sure.

@Mod

could provide the best answer.

A Universal Backup, upon the first death of a power role of the Universal Backup's alignment, inherits that power role for their own use. The term "power role" refers to any non-vanilla role.

Yes, but Ascetic is a modifier and not a role, and it is unclear whether modifiers are also inherited.

[mbaki]

Any modifiers would also be inherited.

would something like town ascetic or macho townie be inheritable?

Her answer means yes, ascetic would be inherited.

[mbaki]

So would it make sense to design a setup where universal backup can backup a negative utility (ascetic)?

If you want to get really technical:

1) your two shot role doesn't fit a setup with no other x-shot roles.
2) Varsoon backing up Ascetic, and then either role confirming he is Ascetic could theoretically soft confirm him as town.
3) the above also applies to Commuter, so from your POV this is true either way.

[mbaki]

So would it make sense to design a setup where universal backup can backup a negative utility (ascetic)?

Yes if both the ascetic and UB are scum, or they are SvT.

You disagree both can theoretically be town?

Because yo, Creature's role fills the same untargetable function as Oka. I don't think that's how we solve this and if that's why you want Oka over Creature then meh.

[mbaki]

So Varsoon/Oka can't be both town?

I wouldn't consider that balanced if they were.

Again: what is the difference between Commuter and Ascetic in this context?

[mbaki]

You are wrong.

[mbaki]

And Kmd, can you actually look at my DDL case before you vote me here? Because if you're town I very strongly believe that you should be able to see what I see there.

[mbaki]

Like, if only we settled to lynch all of {DDL, mbaki, Oka}...

Hence why you should lynch Oka here if you're town.

[mbaki]

HOUSTON HAVE THE LEAD

fuck...

Please keep in mind both Oka and Creature are voting me, and at least one of them is not town, unless you think Varsoon is scum (he's not, as Moon and I have both said) and bussed me earlier.

[mbaki]

viewtopic.php?p=10654937#p10654937 viewtopic.php?p=10655143#p10655143
I very much feel like both my original case, and then his awful reply are kind of slam dunk. He didn't refute my reply.

[mbaki]

Like, if only we settled to lynch all of {DDL, mbaki, Oka}...

Hence why you should lynch Oka here if you're town.

I'm too a wimp to hammer.

So you'd rather be on my mislynch?

[mbaki]

I will be around, but for now my vote is staying on you.

[mbaki]

I would also like you to review my DDL case, Creature.

[mbaki]

Also, keep in mind I am voting with the conf!town and the very likely!town. The lynch on me is the 4 sketchiest slots in the game, if it happens.

[mbaki]

Is that your response Creature? Or just a coincidence.

[mbaki]

viewtopic.php?p=10654937#p10654937 viewtopic.php?p=10655143#p10655143
I very much feel like both my original case, and then his awful reply are kind of slam dunk. He didn't refute my reply.

2267 isn't the case, is it? Because if so....ummm?

No, its the response to his response to the case, which is also incriminating.

viewtopic.php?p=10654937#p10654937 2250 is the case, the link didn't work in the layered quote.

[mbaki]

Let's hope this is scum, then. I would have rathered Kmd discuss more first, but hopefully mod doesn't quick lock.

[mbaki]

i was actually just bp lmao im sorry i wanted to bait suka because i thought she was scum and then i stuck to my claim cuz i didnt want to die sorry im going to go hide now

Lmao, so we hit scum.

[mbaki]

I think I owe an apology to Moongrass, Oka's lynch is largely thanks to him.

[mbaki]

Also, @Oka, you too. Your scum game is pretty good actually, all of my earlier bashes to you were unwarranted.

[mbaki]

I guess we have 2 lynches to sort out myself / DDL / Kmd, 66% odds are pretty solid. Creature, Varsoon, and Moongrass should be treated as ICs.

[mbaki]

Creature, do you still think I'm more likely scum than DDL?

[mbaki]

I am a lot less sure its DDL over Kmd, after that EoD + Moongrass posting + Kmd has bad Oka associations (randomly townreading him in his iso, never showing an effort to sort).

Creature, Varsoon, are you still considering me as likely scum? Each other (please say no, you're both town)? This affects how I will play today.

[mbaki]

oka mbaki doesnt make sense.

I don't like that Kmd and DDL both defended Oka, early game and here. I agree with this part though lmao.

[mbaki]

I am leaning towards voting Kmd.

[mbaki]

If I was scum with oka why wouldn't I have hammered you when creature voted and I was ready to vote you anyway

to make it believable? after Moon had just shaded you and Oka as a possible team, you lol hammering would not have flied.

[mbaki]

Weren't around? I dunno.
I don't think it's you, though.
I think the solve is probably Mbaki/DDL.

I had every opportunity to help you lynch Creature or to help Oka lynch you, both were pushing me too. Just saying.

If that's the solve, we can do DDL, but Kmd has much worse play here than I'm used to from him.

[mbaki]

Because Moongrass was global town, by far, and people were still suspecting you. This includes a hypothetical town Kmd and a Creature, both of whom would still be alive. You had also voted me yesterday more than you voted DDL.

Not saying DDL is scum over Kmd, but for the second time this game, you not being killed is not a reason to doubt your reads.

[mbaki]

I am not sure about the latter, exactly. rb was a given kill, especially pushing both scum if DDL is scum in this hypothetical. Dann did have both Kmd and DDL in his scum pool too, maybe they just thought he was more threatening because you hadn't done anything up to that point.

That brings up this: if I'm scum with Dann, why do I kill him when he doesn't scum read Oka, and has me as his strongest town read, and is an available mislynch? The "perfect storm," so to speak. There isn't even a hypothetical reason I can think of.

[mbaki]

That is completely irrelevant, it is not hard evidence. It was very clear his claim was fake.

[mbaki]

Town on top, scum on bottom:
Dannflor
Creature
OkaPoka
Varsoon
Drdoolittle
mbaki
Suka
BrightEyedFish

This whack reads list aside, Kmd and I both wanted Fish lynched. Kmd was one of the people who ran up Fish and I was not on the lynch, but that slot made a very obvious fake claim and it being bad town does not change that lynching it was the right play on principle.

[mbaki]

DDL you are a very mixed read to me with some of your slot reading very scummy and some of your slot reading very town, so I don't really know where to sort you. I would lean more town than scum just based on gut though. At a surface level, yours and Varsoon's posts do look similar.

I didn't imply I thought it was DDL, just that his logic is off.

BTW to correct you mbaki dann thought i was town: see his last couple of posts

Fair enough.

[mbaki]

yeah i vaguely recall kmd was pretty high strung on fish.

but i disagree. I think creature's awesome strat of letting fish live another day is the correct play.
(creature this is me trying to buddy you)

I really just disagree. He was the scummiest slot in the game, almost everybody including you thought him and Vorkuta had scum, and his claim made 0 fiscal sense. I was lowkey trying to delay the day to see if he did any solving or not, but he didn't do anything at all. And, this is all from somebody who did not join his wagon at any point nor have anything to do with it starting.

~

If DDL is scum, I was right to tunnel him and case him. If DDL is town, I was right to defend him d1 and get rid of his wagon. Choice-supportive bias is a great thing.

[mbaki]

I am not willing to lynch rb, Kmd4390, OkaPoka.

I probably would not lynch Creature, Nero Cain, Suka.

I would be okay with lynching Varsoon, Leodanny.

Ideally, we lynch in DrDoLittle, Vorkuta, BrightEyedFish, YyottaCat.

As well, if Fish is town its amusing how off I am this game.

If Kmd is scum this is absolutely hilarious.

[mbaki]

Interesting.

[mbaki]

Can I ask why you are voting him and not me this quickly? I don't mean this as in its sketchy, I'm just curious what got you over our (hypothetical) TvT this quick into day start.

[mbaki]

Fair. Somebody listening to NKA finally this game ~_~

I was up all night taking care of my friend who was super sick, and I have some work to do. I'll take a think on this and do the ISOing later.

[mbaki]

He also tried to lynch me a few times, and thought I could be scum with Oka. Not that smart

[mbaki]

Very good at scum explains you being around still, and not widely suspected. Also explains generally bad reads and pushes on town.

I know axtivity s not AI for you.

[mbaki]

You only have one buddy here so not bussing makes sense, and I have seen you claim VT as scum.

[mbaki]

Full bus your last living buddy d2, ingenious. Its possible, but saying makes sense is a huge stretch.

[mbaki]

I kinda think you're scum who needs to mislynch myself and DDL to win because you fucked up yesterday, and here we are.

[mbaki]

Passive like when you told your partner to claim Ascetic?

[mbaki]

its a subconscious indicator. It isn't about Oka needing coaching, it's about the fact that in scum PT there is always a discussion about claims. It doesn't matter that he's a decent scum player, it matters that competent players still get advice from teammates.

Nothing you have posted today looks like sorting, but hungh, sure buddy.

[mbaki]

I am leaning towards voting Kmd.

[mbaki]

Did you iso Oka and Kmd and still come to the conclusion Kmd is town? It may help you to case that.

[mbaki]

Weren't around? I dunno.
I don't think it's you, though.
I think the solve is probably Mbaki/DDL.

if this is your final verdict then no matter how scummy i think mbaki is I need to push kmd today because on the chance that kmd is scum, then in lylo its an instant town loss.

I am also concerned, because I think tomorrow Varsoon will vote me over you if Kmd isnt scum, and Creature may as well. That would be a loss. I think Kmd is notably more likely to be scum here though. I haven't voted yet, because I'm conflicted and I think that town loses if I pick wrong today, but I think I'll end up voting Kmd and trust day 1 mbaki.

[mbaki]

Great, so we are in agreement.

VOTE: Kmd

Please don't anybody be stupid enough to see 3292, go "Kmd as scum would never be okay getting lynched" and townread it. Its a level 2 scum play.

[mbaki]

If we could settle me as town, then you have to lynch within Kmd, DDL to win. It is irrelevant. But at this point, I think every slot thinks I'm more likely scum than DDL, and we lose the game if he is scum. I've accepted that, and think we probably win here so its fine.

[mbaki]

Why is this so dead?

[mbaki]

Can we get a Votecount?

2 votes Kmd (myself and DDL), 1 vote mbaki (Kmd), 2 not voting (Varsoon and Creature).

[mbaki]

Can you argue why its not Kmd? I appreciate you are doing DDL and not me, but I believe Kmd is more likely.

[mbaki]

I don't want to be in that position though, at that point I'll be conf biased knowing Kmd is scum and my case won't be good. I want to solve this today.

You think the solve is DDL Mbaki because Kmd is town, or because DDL is scum? That's an important distinction.

[mbaki]

I'm not scum either, Varsoon. And stop ignoring my questions, you are doing a huge disservice to town by not arguing your cause.

[mbaki]

Can you argue why its not Kmd? I appreciate you are doing DDL and not me, but I believe Kmd is more likely.

I don't want to be in that position though, at that point I'll be conf biased knowing Kmd is scum and my case won't be good. I want to solve this today.

You think the solve is DDL Mbaki because Kmd is town, or because DDL is scum? That's an important distinction.

[mbaki]

DDL and I both disagree though, and at least 1 of us has to be town. Moongrass was also suspicious. If you could explain what makes him town to you, that would help. His scum game is good, and very similar to his town game.

[mbaki]

Mhm. You tunneled the person who is now conf town for a good part of yesterday, and barely played the game before. The holier than thou attitude is not appreciated.

Still have not answered my question. Please town case Kmd if that is your stance.

[mbaki]

I've been nothing but genuine here and it's legit annoying as fuck when players like you undermine or manipulate me when I am.

Did you iso Oka and Kmd and still come to the conclusion Kmd is town? It may help you to case that.

Can you argue why its not Kmd? I appreciate you are doing DDL and not me, but I believe Kmd is more likely.

You think the solve is DDL Mbaki because Kmd is town, or because DDL is scum? That's an important distinction.

I'm not scum either, Varsoon. And stop ignoring my questions, you are doing a huge disservice to town by not arguing your cause.

If you could explain what makes him town to you, that would help.

Still have not answered my question. Please town case Kmd if that is your stance.

Where am I undermining you? I have asked you

7

times to defend your town read that is at l-1, and you have ignored me every time. That isn't undermining, that's trying to get you to fucking play the game. You ignored me constantly.

[mbaki]

You know what's annoying? Whenever I point out someone's play raises suspicion or that some's play could use work, people immediately ad-hom with that 'holier than thou' shit.
I don't think I've played very well this game at all. I just barely came around on Oka and even then I had huge doubts.
In fact, nah, I'm not gonna stand for that kinda shit anymore.
Am I garbage at the game? Maybe
But maybe you shouldn't be eager pidgeonhole and undermine town who's actually trying to figure out the game.
VOTE: mbaki
The burden of towncasing KMD isn't on me.

The burden is on you if you are the only one who thinks he's town.

I'm just wondering about something: could the last scum be a power role? That would mean mbaki and Kmd are clear unless they have a limiting modifier.

I think last scum has to be vanilla, unfortunately. That or a very weak role. Town just doesn't have enough power to warrant it.

[mbaki]

I have no words for how much I hate how you've played this game. You lost a lot of respect in my eyes.

[mbaki]

Creature hasn't weighed in

Correct, he's made it clear he's unsure and has not taken a stance townreading Kmd.

BVIOUSLY the scum's gonna say the other two people are scum and vote in whoever looks likelier to eat the lynch

Not remotely true, and I am bemused after all your play you think the scum play is that OBVIOUS.

If DDL is scum, he is trying to lynch Kmd and then ride on the fact he can kill Creature tonight and you are you. My "easier to eat the lynch" target would have been DDL, after my case and my trajectory was set up, and in the world I'm scum that makes him town which means he still would have been pushing Kmd. His "easier to eat the lynch" target would have been me, for the reciprocal reasons. Kmd is the only one fitting the bill of lynching the easiest target, and lynching the easiest target is not the correct scum play always or even most of the time. These are basic scum tactics. DDL has stated he doesn't believe I'm scum because of Oka interactions, and I've stated I think Kmd is far likelier to be scum than him. At least one of us is town pushing Kmd as scum. As a townie who disagrees with that, its YOUR job to convince us otherwise and prevent Kmd from being mislynched. Nothing I have done is "undermining" or "manipulating",

asking you to town case one of the 3 players in the scum pool

can't possibly be seen as against the town wincon and I dare you to try and prove how I'm wrong. I ranted at you yesterday and knocked some sense into you, so hopefully that will repeat here. I know you are not a terrible player normally. Don't be one here.

[mbaki]

If you respect me less as a person or as a moderator because I have been legitimately poor at playing this one game, that's your prerogative, I guess.

I respect you less because you didn't play most of the game, and your entire effort here was sheeping somebody who subbed in day 4 and flip flopping your vote around like its having a seizure. Not because of having bad reads. You are voting me reactionarily here, and I knew you probably would, but it doesn't matter. You are saying I'm manipulating you for asking you to make a fucking town case. That's bullshit.

Honestly, why don't you pitch who is absolutely gotta be scum so if you eat dirt here and don't flip red, I've got your vote of confidence in where to go next, unless you don't have high confidence in a literal coin-toss odds of picking right

Hm, let's see.

Kmd, who has garbage interactions with Oka.

Kmd, who had Oka high on his town reads for no given reason.

Kmd, who defended Oka and tried to lynch me over him yesterday.

Kmd, who tried to chain lynch myself and DDL for the win.

Kmd, who Moongrass explicitly lynched Moongrass over me for because he thought there was a shot he was scum.

Kmd, who was scum read by Dann (the only night kill that wasn't an obv town), as well as the other if I recall (don't remember Nero's or rb's reads there).

Could Kmd be town? Sure, but I don't think he is and DDL doesn't think he is and you don't seem to be at all interested in proving the one to two of us that are town wrong.

I did not resort to a holier than thou attitude, I asked you

6

(correction) times to argue why he was town or interact with me or do anything, and you didn't. There are two lynches left, and I know I'm in all odds one of them so I need to pick one today and you aren't helping.

[mbaki]

VOTE: DDL

Also, if you want to talk about easier, Creature and Oka tried to cfd to DDL. I had that opportunity.

Anyway, you wanna vote Creature?
VOTE: Creature

You tried to lynch Creature, directly asking me. Easier vote? I denied you every time.

Man, you don't get it. I don't want to vote Creature.You should be engaging with Moongrass about why he town reads Creature, because you think he's town, and hell even without you he just showed he's thinking about Creature scum.

This is what I'm telling you again. You don't seem to get that your job as a townie is to help town win, not state your reads and pout when nobody listens to them.

I didn't join Oka's tunnel on you either, despite the fact I had more than ample opportunity. I chose to lynch Oka regardless, and I had him in my solve from the beginning of the game - not to mention I still think it is ridiculous to think our d2 is TvT.

[mbaki]

Okay, and I told you, I've nothing against you for reads. If you don't have much passion or drive for Kmd being town, then why are you being so obstinate?

[mbaki]

Okay, so

why do you feel right about it?

Articulate. Use your words. You didn't say anything, you said you thought he was town and said nothing.

I engaged with you on everything, don't fucking try me. I talked to you about your Creature read even though this is clearly his town game and you should have played long enough to know that. I talked to Oka about his read on you even though it was awful.

[mbaki]

i thought mbaki was painfully obvious town lol

Its bias from my manipulative playstyle. Their dislike of me caused them to scum read me.

Take it how you will, but all of my AtE was faked this game, with the exception of d1 frustration with Fish. It was how I saw optimal to get rid of my wagon and any suspicion on me. It worked in the end via keeping me from being lynched, though I understand why this may anger some people.

No ill will Varsoon / Vorkuta / Moongrass / anyone, good game Sorry if you take this personally, I was trying very hard to keep my emotional abuse game related and keep anything from escalating. It is why I kept keeping things civil. I saw the traitor crumbs from rb towards me as actually a little damning, and the level of experience from players here wasn't enough to expect a traitor to fake crumb or just not crumb (a legitimate strategy), so I was contemplating how to not let myself be one of the mislynches and self voting / spamming AtE was what I came up with. So yes, I lied, my self vote was tactical and not an emotional response. I decided to continue that strategy through the game, for example I thought Varsoon needed to be lectured and Moongrass needed a powerful

bold

argument.

I do think I should have been very obv town, but it doesn't always happen like that.

I guess my reads weren't awful in the end, despite being hilariously bad d1. I did push both scum lynches pretty hard and reevaluate on DDL.

Kmd, you should know who's alt I am. You can PM me if you want. I think you already suspected it.

Scum played well other than their initial blunder. Good game all

[mbaki]

Actually, let's make it public.

I'm an alt of Eddie Cane. I believe about half the game knows me. I played two games on this alt with the intention of trying very fucking hard and pulling out everything I could. The first went a lot better than this one (shoutout Dann). I fucked up on KMD's name at the beginning and had to correct lmao.


I want to be clear. I don't think I played a bad game. This town was

very

hard to work with. There was a lot of slots doing nothing, very little motivation, and scum was playing well (really, I don't think killing rb is a bad kill aside from the fact he happened to be traitor). I had a very rough early game from my reads, but I don't think town wins this if I didn't play as I did at the end so :shrug:

<3

[mbaki]

wow! great to see you again eddie! had no idea at all that it was you.

Lmao I tried, hi! Love that you shouted out a few of my posts as good in the mod thread, if no players appreciate me at least the mod does