Individual-1 (Donald Trump)

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Post Post #18677  (isolation #0)  » Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:28 pm

Decided to take a look into this thread
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Post Post #18678  (isolation #1)  » Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:31 pm

In post 18652, Psyche wrote:I'd be fine w measures to control illegal immigration if that were all that's happening, but donald's also combined that with measures to reduce and make harder legal immigration and imo an excessively negative stance on the value that immigrants, even poor immigrants, add to our country. I think overall we should be accepting loads more immigrants than we are right now.

Yah, we have something we agree on. I agree with him illegal immigration should be controlled harder, but making legal immigration harder won't help.

I'd still not be fine going like "oh they're (the immigrants) illegal so let's just make them legal over the people (that wants to migrate) that haven't gone illegal".
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Post Post #18679  (isolation #2)  » Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:33 pm

In post 18675, Ginngie wrote:At this point i truly won’t talk to trump supporters

All you gotta do is read Top Minds of reddit and you’ll understand how much of a cult it’s become

I wouldn't say all Trump supporters are that crazy. Atleast those treating him like god should be minimal.
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Post Post #18687  (isolation #3)  » Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:39 pm

In post 18686, Panzerjager wrote:It's because they don't believe white privilege is a thing.

Tell me more.
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Post Post #18689  (isolation #4)  » Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:48 pm

No, I really know little to nothing about us politics.
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Post Post #18697  (isolation #5)  » Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:27 am

In post 18695, Psyche wrote:
In post 18690, Creature wrote:No, I really know little to nothing about us politics.

lol but it's not just a us politics thing

If you're arguing about color people in the social environment, then I agree, even I feel like I involuntarily view color people (as well as other groups) differently.

Still, I believe it's a thing that people should regulate, not government.
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Post Post #18701  (isolation #6)  » Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:14 am

In post 18700, rb wrote:so if some people decide that they should be allowed to discriminate based on race, the government shouldn't veto this?

honestly fuck that hey

It's quite hard to make people not discriminate. Even putting thousands of laws won't make everyone change their views.

I think government should only intervene if the discriminated group is being harmed.
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Post Post #18702  (isolation #7)  » Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:22 am

In post 18701, Panzerjager wrote:
In post 18698, Creature wrote:
In post 18695, Psyche wrote:
In post 18690, Creature wrote:No, I really know little to nothing about us politics.

lol but it's not just a us politics thing

If you're arguing about color people in the social environment, then I agree, even I feel like I involuntarily view color people (as well as other groups) differently.

Still, I believe it's a thing that people should regulate, not government.


Nah man. Nah. When the people regulate something, things get through the cracks and punishment swings wildly. Domestic violence stuff in the NFL is a pretty good example of dumb shit that can happen when you rely on media and the public to pressure organizations for punishments. Kareem Hunt lost his job for getting into an altercation with a woman who got in his face, slapped him, and allegedly called him racial slurs. The same team that fired Hunt employs Tyreek Hill, who threw his now-wife around like a ragdoll, punched her in the face, sat on her and repeatedly punched her in the stomach(while she was eight weeks pregnant with his child) , and choked her. This isn't even alleged, he pled guilty to it(and got a ridiculously light sentemce)and was drafted to the team 5 months later.

So you're describing violence, which should really be punished.

I was mostly talking about the way color people are viewed upon. Like, you can't force someone to befriend someone from a certain group, it's something that should come naturally.
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Post Post #18706  (isolation #8)  » Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:19 am

In post 18705, Psyche wrote:Could institute policies likely to reduce social prejudice, like requiring racial integration and the presence of racial minorities in schools and/or the workplace or in different neighborhoods, organizing dialogues, etc

Again, I'm against forcing picking people based on race, but I'd not be against voluntary actions.
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Post Post #18707  (isolation #9)  » Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:22 am

In post 18706, Panzerjager wrote:automatically get rid of the ones with names like "chetana", "amare", "tatiana", and "muhammad" in favor of "ashley", "brad", "becky", and "cooper".

You're right, that's picking based on race.
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Post Post #18708  (isolation #10)  » Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:25 am

My own school have racial quotas (even though it's like 7 white to 2 non-white and you can clearly see the problem here) and I respect that because they decided to have it and everyone applying in is aware of that.
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Post Post #18710  (isolation #11)  » Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:53 am

In post 18710, Panzerjager wrote:Quotas are bad.

I agree.

Still, it's up for the place to choose.
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Post Post #18712  (isolation #12)  » Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:05 am

In post 18712, Porkens wrote:
In post 18710, Panzerjager wrote:Quotas are bad.


Then how do you overcome systemic racism and personal / regional bias?

Build a company near the minorities?
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Post Post #18713  (isolation #13)  » Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:06 am

Imagine the world if you all started opening voluntary actions to help them.
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Post Post #18714  (isolation #14)  » Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:07 am

In post 18710, Panzerjager wrote:Quotas are bad.

If you think quotas are bad, what would be your suggestion for this?
In post 18706, Panzerjager wrote:it's that you shouldn't look at a stack of applications for school/employment and automatically get rid of the ones with names like "chetana", "amare", "tatiana", and "muhammad" in favor of "ashley", "brad", "becky", and "cooper".
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Post Post #18716  (isolation #15)  » Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:16 am

In post 18716, Panzerjager wrote:My answer would be the answer that most colleges already use. Holistic review.

Never heard of that.

Expand?
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Post Post #18718  (isolation #16)  » Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:43 am

In post 18718, Kublai Khan wrote:
In post 18702, Creature wrote:I think government should only intervene if the discriminated group is being harmed.

I love how you admit you know nothing of the history of the United States. Make a statement like what I quoted above. And then go on to say that the government should not be involved in improving racial equality.

If you want to participate in grown-up discussion, then read some books and articles and be educated on the history of the United States first. Have some knowledge of social sciences and economics (maybe even environmentalism). The "brilliant" simple solutions you are already offering have been thought of many times over, but there are a host of problematic details that result in your solutions making problems worse.

Hence why I've been asking stuff over this thread.
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Post Post #18719  (isolation #17)  » Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:45 am

There's not much material to read about USA here. I have a fair idea of my country though. Also I'm not arrogant enough to believe I have the solution, but I have a vague idea of what won't work.
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Post Post #18722  (isolation #18)  » Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:25 am

I participate in debates to learn.

Otherwise, what's the point of a debate?
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Post Post #18726  (isolation #19)  » Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:55 am

In post 18725, Ginngie wrote:
In post 18702, Creature wrote:
In post 18700, rb wrote:so if some people decide that they should be allowed to discriminate based on race, the government shouldn't veto this?

honestly fuck that hey

It's quite hard to make people not discriminate. Even putting thousands of laws won't make everyone change their views.

I think government should only intervene if the discriminated group is being harmed.

I don’t know the fallacy name so psyche help me out but

The argument “they’ll do it anyway” is asinine and you should throw it out because that is intellectually and socially lazy cop out

I'm referencing the multiple times old dictators tried to make people not believe Christianity or other beliefs.
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Post Post #18727  (isolation #20)  » Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:56 am

In post 18726, Ginngie wrote:Also I’m so ducking confused

Why do you say the people and the government are different things

The people USE the GOVERNMENT to make CHANGES through LAWS

(That was only 25% kain tepes posting and i wish i could do more)

I'll use an example:

There could have a law to force people to donate 25% of their income to charities

or people could do it only voluntarily.
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Post Post #18731  (isolation #21)  » Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:26 pm

In post 18730, Kublai Khan wrote:This isn't debate though. It's "Hey, stop what you're talking about and educate me!"

I have my vague ideas and I expect debating them is what's gonna help me through.
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Post Post #18732  (isolation #22)  » Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:26 pm

In post 18730, Kublai Khan wrote:Go read Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States".

Thanks for the suggestion. I have another book in mind too.
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Post Post #18733  (isolation #23)  » Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:28 pm

In post 18731, Kublai Khan wrote:
In post 18728, Creature wrote:or people could do it only voluntarily.

You keep assuming that people have never been given the opportunity to act and do right.

Part of white privilege is assuming that white people are good by default.

I think you're shoving words into my mouth. I didn't say white people are good by default. I said (not just white) people are usually good.
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Post Post #18736  (isolation #24)  » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:10 pm

In post 18735, Kublai Khan wrote:How much of your earnings have you donated to the poor?

I'm 16.
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Post Post #18738  (isolation #25)  » Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:07 pm

In post 18738, Ginngie wrote:You’re parents or anyone else never gave you money ever?

Actually they sometimes give smaller tips. In that case I remember already handing plenty.
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Post Post #18739  (isolation #26)  » Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:07 pm

I'm talking about bigger tips.
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Post Post #18751  (isolation #27)  » Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:47 am

Communism itself was a religion.
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Post Post #18756  (isolation #28)  » Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:46 pm

Remembers me about Communism's pretty much motto: "what if we end killing millions of innocent? It's for the greater good"
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Post Post #18761  (isolation #29)  » Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:29 pm

In post 18761, Maruchan wrote:ITT(and every other thread): Creature expounds on subjects he knows nothing about as if he knew everything about it

I know some.
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Post Post #18763  (isolation #30)  » Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:45 pm

Do we have a topic we discuss ideologies?
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Post Post #18765  (isolation #31)  » Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:12 pm

No, an actual thread about discussing new ideologies if you have one good alternative for capitalism.
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Post Post #18767  (isolation #32)  » Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:01 pm

In post 18767, Maruchan wrote:pure communism sounds pretty great

So if every people in the world were pure.
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Post Post #18769  (isolation #33)  » Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:07 pm

Okay, maybe next day, but the basic I know seems to be bad.
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Post Post #18771  (isolation #34)  » Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:09 pm

For something to work you need control.

Government-controlled is terrible, way worse than privately-controlled.
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Post Post #18774  (isolation #35)  » Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:24 pm

In post 18773, McMenno wrote:communism is stateless

Hence why it fails into socialism.
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Post Post #18780  (isolation #36)  » Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:22 am

In post 18780, AniX wrote:
In post 18772, Creature wrote:For something to work you need control.

Government-controlled is terrible, way worse than privately-controlled.


Guy, for someone who openly admits to knowing nothing, you sure like to make definitive statements you have no evidence for.

In post 18690, Creature wrote:No, I really know little to nothing about us politics.

In post 18690, Creature wrote:us politics.

In post 18690, Creature wrote:US

In post 18690, Creature wrote:United Fucking States
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Post Post #18781  (isolation #37)  » Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:23 am

Brazil (and Latin America in general) has great examples of public companies failing hard while private companies striving.
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Post Post #18786  (isolation #38)  » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:34 am

In post 18784, shaft.ed wrote:
In post 18779, Ginngie wrote:but also legally allows people to hold those views and not be accountable.
i'd say thats a problem with the law

This is something I've read at Carl Sagan's The Demon-Haunted World about Thomas Jefferson:

I'm not exactly sure where he declared it, but according to him: any view should be explicitly allowed to be expressed. That ranges from things that were considered an absurd at the time (such black or women rights) to things we consider absurd nowadays (including the armed revolution supporters, hate groups and even satanism), as long their practice doesn't break the constituional laws. This is the liberty of expression, how Voltaire would say: "I might disagree with your opinion, but I am willing to give my life for your right to express it".

This kind of view is what makes me appreciate Thomas Jefferson and the United States. By making a law forbiding certain views, you're breaking this kind of rule and opening space for a bigger censorship.

I'll always be against adding any new rule that forbids a view to be expressed, even if it's a view I pretty much hate.
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Post Post #18787  (isolation #39)  » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:41 am

In post 18785, Porkens wrote:
In post 18782, Creature wrote:Brazil (and Latin America in general) has great examples of public companies failing hard while private companies striving.

Private companies are bad at taking care of people. Money over life. A representative government at least has systematic remedies in theory...

I still think hospitals and pharmacies shouldn't be entirely privatized, but not entirely statizated either.

If someone wants a free hospital service, they can go to a public hospital.
If someone wants a better hospital service but pay for it, they can go to a private hospital.
Whether someone feels more comfortable with a public or private hospital, it's up for them.
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Post Post #18788  (isolation #40)  » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:43 am

In post 18786, Kublai Khan wrote:But people learn by asking questions, not by making declarative statements.

I point out my concerns.

I'm not saying whatever I say is an absolute truth, it's my opinion based on my (direct or indirect) experience.
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Post Post #18789  (isolation #41)  » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:51 am

In post 18777, Kublai Khan wrote:
In post 18772, Creature wrote:For something to work you need control.

Government-controlled is terrible, way worse than privately-controlled.

Oh yeah? Name an industry in which private businesses did more for the public good than government?

Sure

WhatsApp for example is free (as long you have a fairly recent phone), it's a private company.
You can use Google, YouTube and other stuff (including this forums) as much you want, you only need to pay a small bill internet, it's a private company.
When buying electronics, the private companies need to keep their products' quality high and price low due market competition.

Meanwhile, here in my state the mail system is public, it's slow, there's no competition yet they're going bankrupt.

Also checking public hospitals (talking mostly about my country), even though I disagree their problem is being statizated, I still feel this is how public companies would go.
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Post Post #18791  (isolation #42)  » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:56 am

In post 18791, shaft.ed wrote:
In post 18787, Creature wrote:as long their practice doesn't break the constituional laws.

the religious loophole laws specifically allow people to 'practice' their bigotry while violating actual laws

Do they use violence? They should be punished.
Do their practices directly harm non-participants? They should be punished.
Do they just publish texts about their opinions? They shouldn't be punished.
Do they just 'think' that? They shouldn't be punished.

When I think about "hold their views" I think more about voicing their views, and no voicing should be ever censored.
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Post Post #18793  (isolation #43)  » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:02 pm

In post 18793, shaft.ed wrote:
In post 18792, Creature wrote:Do their practices directly harm non-participants? They should be punished.

this one

denying goods or services to others based on their religious views

So we agree here.
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Post Post #18795  (isolation #44)  » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:18 pm

In post 18795, McMenno wrote:Didn't you just say that communism was when the government did stuff?

No, post 18772 was referring to Socialism, because I don't think something stateless ever works unless everyone's honest or we gather a big lynching group.
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Post Post #18796  (isolation #45)  » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:19 pm

Communism usually ends needing authority and thus becomes socialism.
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Post Post #18798  (isolation #46)  » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:26 pm

I mean, if your religion doesn't allow you to do X in their name, then you can't force them to. Either don't do X or change religion.
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Post Post #18799  (isolation #47)  » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:28 pm

In post 18793, shaft.ed wrote:denying goods or services to others based on their religious views

Also, what good or services can they deny other than their own?
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Post Post #18801  (isolation #48)  » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:57 pm

In post 18801, Equinox wrote:These are examples of companies being motivated purely by profit.

This is how they end doing a good public service.

Also I don't really mind about the info they get about me. If you care about what they can see you searching, you can use duckduckgo
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Post Post #18804  (isolation #49)  » Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:02 pm

Thanks

I hope my political opinions don't affect my relationship with others elsewhere here.
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Post Post #18806  (isolation #50)  » Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:18 pm

In post 18806, Porkens wrote:Enemies for life

Spoiler:
Image
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Post Post #18811  (isolation #51)  » Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:15 am

In post 18809, Maruchan wrote:
In post 18787, Creature wrote:...things we consider absurd nowadays (...s and even satanism)...

Do you even know what the fuck satanism is to be makign this statement?

oh my fucking god


he thinks satanism is about worshiping satan


satanism is not something anybody who understands would truly consider absurd. 203-9wquyah0s[r8hjyaerjsrtdkj


EDIT: Did you know the Satanic Bible has had more reviews on Amazon than any rendition of The Bible? It also shares the same high rating, 4.4/5 stars.

I took the example from the book I've referenced.
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Post Post #18829  (isolation #52)  » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:03 am

In post 18818, Maruchan wrote:I've stopped trying to reason with her. I mentioned the "republicans think it's more important to "stick it to the libs" than be honest" article and she responded "hell yeah. Sticking it to a lib is the highlight of my day".

I know some youtuber calling Hillary a big corrupt, but wanted her to win so Trump would lose

Yeah, "owning the libs" happens to both sides :/
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Post Post #18878  (isolation #53)  » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:22 pm

In post 18870, Maruchan wrote:
In post 18868, T S O wrote:the dumber ones (Anix, who believes not only that gender isn't binary but also that sex isn't binary,

this sounds like you have an issue with trans folks there

Not really. They choose being male or female.
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Post Post #18879  (isolation #54)  » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:25 pm

In post 18876, T S O wrote:What am I getting banned for?

Expressing conservative views.
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Post Post #18881  (isolation #55)  » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:35 pm

In post 18881, Maruchan wrote:not choose no

*opt being referred to a certain gender by their self-identification

I use the word choose but I know they don't have much of a choice.
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Post Post #18886  (isolation #56)  » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:46 pm

Atleast say the "at one point in this thread allowing your wife to have sex with other men was encouraged" is false. Otherwise I'll think someone is mentally insane here.
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Post Post #18887  (isolation #57)  » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:55 pm

In post 18868, T S O wrote:you should at least recognise the more intellectually honest among them (Psyche

Heh
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Post Post #18910  (isolation #58)  » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:57 am

In post 18894, AniX wrote:Oh wait no, I see what he means by sex: male and female. But again, intersex exists so that's at least a trinary. To say nothing of the fact you couldn't then and can't now name a definition of sex that includes exactly two parts.

Sex is meant to be a more concrete distinction between male and female (based on biological characteristics), hence why it's meant to only have two categories: male and female. Intersex is like a mix of both, usually leaning one.
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Post Post #18911  (isolation #59)  » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:58 am

In post 18910, rb wrote:TSO is unabashedly transphobic

I don't think considering sex and gender both binaries is transphobic. Did I miss something else?
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Post Post #18913  (isolation #60)  » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:25 am

In post 18913, Psyche wrote:yeah it turns out that tso has made more than one post

I've only seen one talking about genders.
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Post Post #18917  (isolation #61)  » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:35 am

In post 18906, Psyche wrote:
In post 18888, Creature wrote:
In post 18868, T S O wrote:you should at least recognise the more intellectually honest among them (Psyche

Heh

hey if you want to try finding a way to defend bolsonaro's record on gays and women and people of color i promise i'll take you seriously for at least until you get banned

I won't negate what he said, but I don't look nowadays to political correctness because it already screwed my country up to the ass. I nowadays look which candidate ideology I agree most (and if they're trustworthy). If needed, just bring a good congress to put them in line. Like, there are plenty of pro-Bolsonaro deputies that wouldn't allow him to go too crazy.

Also, the point is that I have a quote of yours that you probably wouldn't want used against you. Although, I'm willing to consider you just got carried away.
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Post Post #18918  (isolation #62)  » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:36 am

In post 18917, Psyche wrote:
In post 18914, Creature wrote:
In post 18913, Psyche wrote:yeah it turns out that tso has made more than one post

I've only seen one talking about genders.

it turns out that he's made other posts

Where else he talks about genders in his recent posts?
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Post Post #18930  (isolation #63)  » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:52 pm

In post 18930, AniX wrote:other than "man" or "woman".

What other?
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Post Post #18934  (isolation #64)  » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:06 pm

Intersex is like a mix of male and female, not a totally new sex.
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Post Post #18937  (isolation #65)  » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:45 pm

Are you talking about (biological) sex or gender?
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Post Post #18939  (isolation #66)  » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:52 pm

Oh, I was talking more specifically about biological sex, which isn't based on self-identification.
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Post Post #18941  (isolation #67)  » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:01 pm

In post 18941, Psyche wrote:Which means his post works as an answer to your post

His analogy makes sense for self-identification, not gonads.
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Post Post #18943  (isolation #68)  » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:06 pm

In post 18943, Maruchan wrote:Intersex is a condition of biological sex that isnt based on self identification. Sre you aware of what intersex is Creature?

Yes. You don't self-identify as intersex, you're born as intersex.

Also the color analogy used seems to be wrong. I think painting house in blue and yellow would make more sense as an analogy.
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Post Post #18945  (isolation #69)  » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:17 pm

In post 18945, Maruchan wrote:
In post 18944, Creature wrote:
In post 18943, Maruchan wrote:Intersex is a condition of biological sex that isnt based on self identification. Sre you aware of what intersex is Creature?

Yes. You don't self-identify as intersex, you're born as intersex.

Also the color analogy used seems to be wrong. I think painting house in blue and yellow would make more sense as an analogy.

So is intersex a mix of male and female like green is a mix of blue and yellow or is it its own separate third category is AniX's my point i then. The analogy works just fine for self identification of gender as for biological sex

Here I go having to change my wording again:

When I say mix, I mean having both male and female characteristics, but separately. Like, even if someone has functional testicles and functional ovaries, they're still separate from each other, not blended together. Hence why I use blue and yellow instead of green.

If I see something that's basically a mix of testicles and ovaries (not separate gonads), then I'd be willing to consider it the green between the blue and yellow.

I'm talking about biological sex here fyi.
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Post Post #18946  (isolation #70)  » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:28 pm

I guess I just want to be concrete. I have that:

Asexual reproduction: individual copies its own DNA to replicate itself. Not the case of humans.

Sexual reproduction: individuals share their DNA between themselves to birth a new individual.
- Male
- Female
- Hermaphrodite: which includes both male and female aspects, but yet still not a third biological sex. Still haven't heard about a fully functional hermaphrodite human, but who knows.

Also there may have some bacteria species with 700+ sexes, but still it's not the case of humans.

tbh biological sex should be nothing more than biological, nobody is supposed to do something according to their biological sex. It's just that it seems wrong to bring up a whole new biological sex for humans. I'd expect a third biological sex to be something entirely different from both male and female.

Hopefully you understood my point of view.
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Post Post #18947  (isolation #71)  » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:33 pm

Also, just take the functional gonad as an example. Changing your sex after going sex reassignment surgery sounds fine.
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Post Post #18964  (isolation #72)  » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:17 pm

lol, and I haven't even engaged at the gender topic yet.
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Post Post #18965  (isolation #73)  » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:20 pm

In post 18960, Psyche wrote:
In post 18958, T S O wrote:
In post 18955, Psyche wrote:gender is like pain in the sense that whether one has it is determined completely by their internal feeling of it


Do you think there's a correlation between gender and sex?

yah up there in the 90 percents or higher

What about gender and birth sex?
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Post Post #18972  (isolation #74)  » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:34 pm

In post 18959, Psyche wrote:Can't help but see the argument about gender identity as really similar to the one about gay marriage. One party thought marriage was defined as being between a man and a woman and opposed changing that conception to improve the social status of same-sex couples in society, and the other thought that a different definition would make the world better off by improving the status of same-sex couples in society. In the same way, people like TSO and Creature seem really attached to traditional conceptions of gender and I can't help but think it's because of either a really inflexible notion of language or a more direct opposition to improving the social status of trans people or both with one of these appropriated to buttress the other.

Actually talking about gay marriage would be interesting, but now I'm as uninspired as I am to talk about gender.

Like, I'm talking about sex (not gender) in biology terms. I'm trying to definite sex through something totally empirical (the same way we can tell whether the Earth is round or not). Yet, it feels like I'm being shot down for talking about scientific facts.

Also, I still keep having this feeling that whenever I try to discuss with a leftist they say "you can't understand that". Most christians use that same fallacy to convince atheists to believe in god.
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Post Post #18975  (isolation #75)  » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:36 pm

In post 18968, BROseidon wrote:
In post 18935, Creature wrote:Intersex is like a mix of male and female, not a totally new sex.


That is... dude did you ever take high school science holy fuck.

Yes, never heard "intersex is a totally new sex" in biology class.
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Post Post #18980  (isolation #76)  » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:43 pm

There's a reason I'm differentiating biological sex from gender.

I'll even let you define the difference between biological sex and gender.
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Post Post #18981  (isolation #77)  » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:45 pm

In post 18979, Maruchan wrote:Some of those born with purely "male" chromosomes (xx, xxx, xxxx, etc) have (gasp) purely "femsle" genitalia and primary/secondary sex characteristics.

Were they born like this?

Also I'm pretty sure XX, XXX, XXXX, etc is actually female.
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Post Post #18982  (isolation #78)  » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:46 pm

In post 18979, Maruchan wrote:In humans people are born with XX, XY, XXX, XXY, and etc mutations of sexual chromosones.

but they're born either with a male genitalia or a female genitalia or a bit of both or neither, there's no non-male and non-female genitalia.
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Post Post #18984  (isolation #79)  » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:48 pm

In post 18984, Maruchan wrote:
In post 18982, Creature wrote:
In post 18979, Maruchan wrote:Some of those born with purely "male" chromosomes (xx, xxx, xxxx, etc) have (gasp) purely "femsle" genitalia and primary/secondary sex characteristics.

Were they born like this?

Also I'm pretty sure XX, XXX, XXXX, etc is actually female.

Sorry I'm phone posting. Pretend there was a y in all of those and yes they are born that way

Likely I'll consider them female.
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Post Post #18987  (isolation #80)  » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:54 pm

In post 18986, Psyche wrote:I think that trans people are intersex but with key part of the the intersex happening in the brain.

Basically their biological sex and gender don't match, hence why they're "trans".
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Post Post #18988  (isolation #81)  » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:55 pm

In post 18986, Psyche wrote:I don't think there is any one biological feature that will always perfectly distinguish any given male from any given female sexually. The assignment of an intersex person to the female or male or none-of-the-above sex is ultimately arbitrary and is a decision that should probably ultimately be left to the intersex person. I think that trans people are intersex but with key part of the the intersex happening in the brain. People don't acknowledge that imo because of society's continuing commitment to cartesian dualism about the mind.

I think we basically agree someone can only have male aspects or female aspects, not an X aspect.

We're mostly debating whether to consider intersex a third sex or something between male and female.
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Post Post #18989  (isolation #82)  » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:57 pm

Yeh, maybe I got the wrong definition of binary.

I just consider male and female opposite ends in a spectrum.
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Post Post #18992  (isolation #83)  » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:23 pm

In post 18992, Psyche wrote:
In post 18989, Creature wrote:
In post 18986, Psyche wrote:I don't think there is any one biological feature that will always perfectly distinguish any given male from any given female sexually. The assignment of an intersex person to the female or male or none-of-the-above sex is ultimately arbitrary and is a decision that should probably ultimately be left to the intersex person. I think that trans people are intersex but with key part of the the intersex happening in the brain. People don't acknowledge that imo because of society's continuing commitment to cartesian dualism about the mind.

I think we basically agree someone can only have male aspects or female aspects, not an X aspect.

We're mostly debating whether to consider intersex a third sex or something between male and female.

I don't think there's any objective answer. Intersex people ought to get to pick.

I don't think intersex non-human animals get to pick their sex. We usually attribute a sex for them based on something and it'd be biologically unfair to study humans differently from other animals.

I'd say the sex is just the currently functional genitalia. If someone has both (which I still haven't heard of), they're basically hermaphrodites, which is being both male and female.
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Post Post #18995  (isolation #84)  » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:31 pm

In post 18995, shaft.ed wrote:
In post 18993, Creature wrote:I don't think intersex non-human animals get to pick their sex.

what does this even mean

In post 18992, Psyche wrote:Intersex people ought to get to pick.

Intersex non-human animals don't.
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Post Post #18997  (isolation #85)  » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:44 pm

In post 18994, rb wrote:so people with erectile dysfunction are a new sex?

wow i think your definition makes even more sexes imo

It's gonna take pretty long to perfect a definition.

Though, until we find someone fully hermaphrodite or fully genderless, they lean one or other and I don't think they get to pick.
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Post Post #19000  (isolation #86)  » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:05 pm

In post 18997, McMenno wrote:They can't talk you idiot

You're zoophobic.
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Post Post #19078  (isolation #87)  » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:01 pm

Image
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Post Post #19099  (isolation #88)  » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:04 pm

In post 19093, shaft.ed wrote:currently you have the rich robbing the poor

???
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Post Post #19101  (isolation #89)  » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:08 pm

There should be a balance. Progressive tax is okay as long it doesn't get to the point of hindering the economy.
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Post Post #19103  (isolation #90)  » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:14 pm

You mean someone with an income of 1 million+?
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Post Post #19113  (isolation #91)  » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:32 pm

I would be pretty pissed if I was being taxed more than 70% of my income.
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Post Post #19121  (isolation #92)  » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:38 pm

In post 19118, Psyche wrote:
In post 19114, Creature wrote:I would be pretty pissed if I was being taxed more than 70% of my income.

the proposed 70% rate is marginal
do you know what that means

Yes, profit. I don't think anyone would have a 10 million dollars wage anyway.
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Post Post #19125  (isolation #93)  » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:44 pm

In post 19124, Slaxx wrote:
In post 19122, Creature wrote:
In post 19118, Psyche wrote:
In post 19114, Creature wrote:I would be pretty pissed if I was being taxed more than 70% of my income.

the proposed 70% rate is marginal
do you know what that means

Yes, profit. I don't think anyone would have a 10 million dollars wage anyway.


Which is why capital gains tax needs reformed too. Put it in brackets.

Considering I could've gained a profit of 10 million dollars, losing 7 million is already pretty saddening. Increase that ammount and you'll see good people giving up about growing their business while bad people finding ways to tax fraud.
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Post Post #19128  (isolation #94)  » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:46 pm

or the classic:

If you gotta pay $10 for someone to profit $3 from a 70% marginal rate, how much would you pay for someone to keep that profit of $3 on a 90% marginal rate?
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Post Post #19130  (isolation #95)  » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:48 pm

In post 19125, Slaxx wrote:
In post 19123, YellowSnow wrote:Unemployment is at a historical low, don't you think having a job helps your income?


Lol

If that job isn’t even enough for you to get by or actually build wealth, then no, it doesn’t matter does it? Which is my point about wage disparity.

A

I don't care that much if someone is gaining billions. I care if someone is getting enough to survive and self-develop themselves.
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Post Post #19137  (isolation #96)  » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:52 pm

In post 19130, Slaxx wrote:I’m not even saying this as a moral argument.

I’m telling you that as wealth disparity increases that the system falls in on itself. We are heading in the wrong direction, and a tax is a good correction. A poor middle class tanks the economy. Every time.

Cool, I want lower taxes for middle class too. Though, I don't want to tax the rich more because I know we'll end paying their tax if we tax them more. Government should do cuts.
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Post Post #19154  (isolation #97)  » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:32 pm

In post 19142, shaft.ed wrote:
In post 19132, YellowSnow wrote:Historically communist nations have a history of falling on itself while capitalist nations grow exponentially.

and who is asking for communism?

such boring discussions anymore

Glad it's the mentally sane that are here.
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Post Post #19155  (isolation #98)  » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:34 pm

In post 19145, Slaxx wrote:Tulsi is expected to drop out Creature :P

Campaign manager on the way out rumor has it

Oh, Tulsi had me interested.
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Post Post #19168  (isolation #99)  » Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:31 am

In post 19162, Maruchan wrote:If you make $10,000,001 with a 70% marginal tax bracket at 10 million dollars, you will pay $3,665,670.20. Not $7 million. $3.6 million.

Please

quit

misunderstanding

My point still stands if we consider the 10 million dollars the excedent.
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Post Post #19170  (isolation #100)  » Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:48 am

In post 19102, Creature wrote:There should be a balance. Progressive tax is okay as long it doesn't get to the point of hindering the economy.
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Post Post #19186  (isolation #101)  » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:10 pm

In post 19177, T-Bone wrote:I don't mean to be insulting...but I've yet to see a self-described "fiscal conservative" have a real grasp on how taxes and government work. It makes it really difficult to discuss economic policy with someone who describes themselves that way when they don't know how these things work.

And like, I'm not trying to make you feel bad Creature, or anyone else who wants to hold a conservative ideal. But if you want to debate policy, you really need to understand what we're talking about. Otherwise it just makes you A) look stupid and B) feel like you are getting ganged up on for being a conservative. You're not stupid, and you're not getting ganged up on for being a conservative. You're getting ganged up on because you don't understand how taxes and government work AND you are unwilling to learn!

And I, nor anyone else, want you to feel that way!

I mean, I don't need to know the exact tax system to argue why whatever the % on the rich is shouldn't be exaggerated.
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Post Post #19187  (isolation #102)  » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:12 pm

Also, I don't feel ganged on. Atleast it's possible to debate here without having to worry about possibly offending someone.

Maybe some day I'll be ready to present my arguments way better. Meanwhile I'll keep trying.
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Post Post #19188  (isolation #103)  » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:18 pm

In post 19179, YellowSnow wrote:I'm not defending Trump as a person but Republicanism seems more mainstream to me than the leftist policies that the democratic party is moving towards.

I dunno how much I like the Republican party. I guess I'm just fond of it because I consider myself moderate right.
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Post Post #19191  (isolation #104)  » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:29 pm

In post 19191, shaft.ed wrote:
In post 19187, Creature wrote:
In post 19177, T-Bone wrote:I don't mean to be insulting...but I've yet to see a self-described "fiscal conservative" have a real grasp on how taxes and government work. It makes it really difficult to discuss economic policy with someone who describes themselves that way when they don't know how these things work.

And like, I'm not trying to make you feel bad Creature, or anyone else who wants to hold a conservative ideal. But if you want to debate policy, you really need to understand what we're talking about. Otherwise it just makes you A) look stupid and B) feel like you are getting ganged up on for being a conservative. You're not stupid, and you're not getting ganged up on for being a conservative. You're getting ganged up on because you don't understand how taxes and government work AND you are unwilling to learn!

And I, nor anyone else, want you to feel that way!

I mean, I don't need to know the exact tax system to argue why whatever the % on the rich is shouldn't be exaggerated.

sure but you do need to understand the tax system to know whether or not it is exaggerated

Were we arguing the current tax system is exaggerated or were we arguing about the 20% (or infinity and beyond) increase change?
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Post Post #19192  (isolation #105)  » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:29 pm

In post 19190, u r a person 2 wrote:
In post 19189, Creature wrote:I dunno how much I like the Republican party. I guess I'm just fond of it because I consider myself moderate right.

Hillary Clinton should have been your ideal candidate if you go strictly by policy position, then. :yawn:

Hell no
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Post Post #19193  (isolation #106)  » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:31 pm

Though, I noticed she proposed more pokestops and if I knew sooner I would've supported her.
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Post Post #19195  (isolation #107)  » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:41 pm

I don't think I care that much about who wins the US elections considering I'm not even from US. Not being a far-left crazie is enough for me.
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Post Post #19212  (isolation #108)  » Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:21 pm

Only a few conservatives actually support white supremacy.
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Post Post #19215  (isolation #109)  » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:02 pm

Were they asked what they would do to protect their culture?

EDIT: Nevermind, white European heritage really seems to refer to racism.
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Post Post #19217  (isolation #110)  » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:49 pm

Just surprising we have a huge ammount of white nationalists.
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Post Post #19242  (isolation #111)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:39 pm

In post 19242, Untrod Tripod wrote:a minority of conservatives (but a worryingly large minority) openly support racist policies. most conservatives support white supremacy by definition because the current power structure is white supremacy.

saying conservatives don't support white supremacy is like saying fascist sympathisers aren't fascists.

Welp I find this wrong considering white supremacy is at most a subgroup of conservativism and not the other way around.

Also assuming current society is white supremacist, conservatives want to keep the current society and therefore that they're white supremacists is so superficial. Most conservatives I know are conservatives because they want free economy, small government and ethics applied to everyone regardless of their race.
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Post Post #19246  (isolation #112)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:40 pm

In post 19244, T-Bone wrote:You dont live in the United States. This issue in this iteration is unique to this country. What UT said is true of the US and of conservatism and white supremacy in the US.

And we don't say this to shame the average conservative either.

So I take the usual conservative policies like anti-abortion, anti-legalization, pro-guns, pro-death penalty, small government have nothing to do with that kind of conservatism, am I right?
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Post Post #19253  (isolation #113)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:15 pm

In post 19248, YellowSnow wrote:It's easier for liberals to call conservatives a bunch of racists than to admit there are valid reasons to be conservative that aren't racist.

I think they (liberals) have a complex of pity.
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Post Post #19255  (isolation #114)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:16 pm

I recommend you to watch out because they must have a very different definition of racism than you.
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Post Post #19258  (isolation #115)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:18 pm

In post 19255, RadiantCowbells wrote:I want poor people to die and decrease the surplus population. What could be wrong with that? Duppence is duppence, after all.

I wasn't talking about financial condition.
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Post Post #19262  (isolation #116)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:32 pm

In post 19260, YellowSnow wrote:I don't think socialist economic policies are as popular as many people seem to think. And a lot of people will stomach a racist president as opposed to a liberal economic policy.

I think people weight what president has the ideas that match the most with them and also put a congress to prevent them from going wild. It boils down to who's more manipulable to the center.
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Post Post #19267  (isolation #117)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:40 pm

In post 19265, u r a person 2 wrote:
In post 19260, YellowSnow wrote:I don't think socialist economic policies are as popular as many people seem to think. And a lot of people will stomach a racist president as opposed to a liberal economic policy.


If that doesn't make them racists, it certainly makes them racist-adjacent, and it highlights the gap in commitment to tolerance between Democrats and Republicans


Look at the difference in treatment between Rep Steve King and Gov. Northam.

Steve King said racist shit for years and years before finally pushing the republican party to slap his wrists

Nearly every democrat in the damn country has called for Northam to resign immediately.

In this country one party considers racism absolutely intolerable, and one thinks that tax policy is more important than human dignity.

So yeah, we can debate whether the Republican party is "racist" but the practical realities are obvious and unhidden

Actually I'm surprised people event elect them if they say racist things as often I think you're describing here. Like, is there no other viable non-racist Republican candidate out there?
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Post Post #19269  (isolation #118)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:41 pm

Also yeah, I sorta expect someone to overreact over a policy that would make them pay for something that likely won't even benefit them.
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Post Post #19272  (isolation #119)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:49 pm

In post 19272, u r a person 2 wrote:In this country one party considers homophobia and transphobia absolutely intolerable

If by homophobia and transphobia you mean something like this site's rule, then surely a lot of people would be hella scared that their humour sense could get themselves arrested.
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Post Post #19278  (isolation #120)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:59 pm

In post 19276, u r a person 2 wrote:
In post 19274, YellowSnow wrote:
In post 19272, u r a person 2 wrote:
In post 19265, u r a person 2 wrote:In this country one party considers racism absolutely intolerable, and one thinks that tax policy is more important than human dignity.


In this country one party considers sexual harassment and abuse absolutely intolerable, and one thinks that tax policy is more important than human dignity.

In this country one party considers homophobia and transphobia absolutely intolerable, and one thinks that tax policy is more important than human dignity.

The not-bigoted conservatives sure can stomach a lot in the name of tax cuts.


I don't think that's a fair statement. I think most republicans would prefer a conservative tax code and equal rights for minorities.


I can't argue what they would prefer, but they are certainly stomaching this shit

Likely because they think racist policies won't get approved?
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Post Post #19320  (isolation #121)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:33 pm

In post 19247, Creature wrote:anti-abortion, anti-legalization, pro-guns, pro-death penalty, small government + private funding

I think the point is that the moderate right will keep voting Republican as long there's no democrat that supports all/almost all of these (and plus a few others I may have missed) policies.

Like, when I took the political siding quiz, I got the closest to Ted Cruz and Ben Shapiro, despite voting yes for same sex civil marriage, while like all Democrats were polar opposites to me.

I'm somewhat still trying to find a democrat that would interess me, but I've only seen those whose policies are like eh to me.

And no, Hillary wasn't moderate right despite her desire for wars.
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Post Post #19323  (isolation #122)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:37 pm

In post 19317, Untrod Tripod wrote:the game is rigged.

I recognize the white started with an advantage, but what could we do now? We can't just restart the game (even though I think most of the upper class would regain their wealth) nor can we start a new game with new rules.

Also I feel like the left policies are just gonna make the minorities dependent on the government.
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Post Post #19325  (isolation #123)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:41 pm

In post 19318, u r a person 2 wrote:
In post 19317, Untrod Tripod wrote:The trick that conservatives have pulled over the last 40 years is convincing themselves and others that being in support of a racist system is okay as long as you aren't saying the n-word.


I have a theory that all of the anger against PC culture stems from people who never agreed that saying the n-word was wrong in the first place and felt oppressed by a culture that demonized its use by white people.

I have zero evidence to back this up, but it feels true.

Yeah, I'm completely against any form of restriction of free speech (emphasize "speech"). I'd open exceptions if it was something like directly verbal attack or actively harming a group.
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Post Post #19329  (isolation #124)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:45 pm

In post 19325, Untrod Tripod wrote:
In post 19324, Creature wrote:Also I feel like the left policies are just gonna make the minorities dependent on the government.

why. show your work.

Well, I can tell that atleast from my country there are policies like that.
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Post Post #19331  (isolation #125)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:46 pm

I'd be all ears for policies that gave emotional support for oppressed people to grow in life.
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Post Post #19333  (isolation #126)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:48 pm

In post 19329, T-Bone wrote:
In post 19324, Creature wrote:
In post 19317, Untrod Tripod wrote:the game is rigged.

I recognize the white started with an advantage, but what could we do now? We can't just restart the game (even though I think most of the upper class would regain their wealth) nor can we start a new game with new rules.

Also I feel like the left policies are just gonna make the minorities dependent on the government.


Creature, could you explain to me the purpose of programs like unemployment benefits, SNAP, medicaid, etc.? I don't mean you need to know policy specifics, just the general purpose of programs like those.

It becomes a problem if the person just relies on them.
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Post Post #19334  (isolation #127)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:50 pm

In post 19333, Untrod Tripod wrote:
In post 19330, Creature wrote:
In post 19325, Untrod Tripod wrote:
In post 19324, Creature wrote:Also I feel like the left policies are just gonna make the minorities dependent on the government.

why. show your work.

Well, I can tell that atleast from my country there are policies like that.

bzz. try again.

why would "left policies" (I'm assuming here you mean social welfare type things) "make minorities dependent on the government" given a clean slate

In some countries it's an indirect form of forcing people to keep the current people in power and also any recession would be catastrophic for those people.
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Post Post #19346  (isolation #128)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:10 pm

In post 19343, T-Bone wrote:
In post 19334, Creature wrote:
In post 19329, T-Bone wrote:
In post 19324, Creature wrote:
In post 19317, Untrod Tripod wrote:the game is rigged.

I recognize the white started with an advantage, but what could we do now? We can't just restart the game (even though I think most of the upper class would regain their wealth) nor can we start a new game with new rules.

Also I feel like the left policies are just gonna make the minorities dependent on the government.


Creature, could you explain to me the purpose of programs like unemployment benefits, SNAP, medicaid, etc.? I don't mean you need to know policy specifics, just the general purpose of programs like those.

It becomes a problem if the person just relies on them.


Oh, well in the United States there are limits on all of those programs. You just cannot rely on them forever. Unemployment benefits last up to a year, and then you have to be continuously employed full time for a year before you could qualify again. You also cannot have voluntarily left your job, or be fired because you commit a crime. The only way you can claim unemployment benefits in the United States is if you lose your employment involuntary. (also the benefits are minimum wage, which is not a living wage)

For SNAP, you need to stay under an unlivable income, and even then you have limits on what you can get from this per year. The average SNAP payout is about $60 bucks a month. The last time I qualified for it, I got $16 bucks a month. That is hardly enough to buy a month's supply of milk!

For Medicaid, you need to be under the poverty line to begin with, and in most states there are caps to how much you can use it.

These programs are designed to give people a leg up. They are not designed for people to live off of, and in fact, no one can.

Well, that's great.

though, the ideal situation is always to stimulate them to get employed with a decent minimum wage.
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Post Post #19350  (isolation #129)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:12 pm

In post 19346, AniX wrote:
In post 19248, YellowSnow wrote:It's easier for liberals to call conservatives a bunch of racists than to admit there are valid reasons to be conservative that aren't racist.


But there is no valid reason to be conservative that doesn't involve one enabling racism, consciously or unconsciously.

I'm going to assume that's the US conservative.
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Post Post #19357  (isolation #130)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:16 pm

In post 19353, Psyche wrote:brazil too tbh, especially with the piece of work yall just elected

You haven't seen the piece of work of 13 years of misgovernment.
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Post Post #19359  (isolation #131)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:19 pm

In post 19355, Untrod Tripod wrote:minimum wage in the USA is below the threshold of wage slavery

Always thought Americans' wage was higher than most underdeveloped countries, unless you refer to the immigrants.
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Post Post #19362  (isolation #132)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:26 pm

It's gonna be hard to defend anything if you see subtle racism in everything.
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Post Post #19368  (isolation #133)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:31 pm

In post 19364, u r a person 2 wrote:im saying those conservative policy positions aren't racist

edit: although I guess you could make an argument that democracy spreading is islamaphobic

but i really think it's rooted 100% in greed

It wasn't directed to you.

And yeah, people are gonna be greed regardless of the system we have.
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Post Post #19374  (isolation #134)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:38 pm

I think we can all agree that people are all naturally egoistic that treat each other with prejudice and disapproval, would circumvent any policy and no system would change their mindset.
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Post Post #19390  (isolation #135)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:52 pm

In post 19386, YellowSnow wrote:
In post 19384, theplague42 wrote:
In post 19381, YellowSnow wrote:Don't you think the argument could be made that blacks are more violent with firearms than whites(especially with gang violence).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... 83d9a78ff7

gun control doesn't stop the criminals though so why bother passing it


I'm in favor of strict gun control(police/military only for all firearms).

I'm not. I'm in favor of gun ownership until a certain point (and under some restrictions obviously).
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Post Post #19391  (isolation #136)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:53 pm

though, maybe US is already past that certain point, so not sure if I should have a say.
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Post Post #19394  (isolation #137)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:54 pm

In post 19390, rb wrote:hot take: racism isn't the only Big Bad™ and arguing over whether a conservative view is racist or not is pointless when it's demonstrably inhumane and ridiculous without even going into 'race' territory

Do you want to argue why no death penalty even for the most heinous crimes is inhumane and ridiculous?
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Post Post #19398  (isolation #138)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:56 pm

In post 19396, rb wrote:what's the best that "u r a person 2" isn't from the united states

any takers?

Most of the countries share the same issues, but sometimes at different grades.
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Post Post #19401  (isolation #139)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:58 pm

In post 19398, rb wrote:
In post 19395, Creature wrote:
In post 19390, rb wrote:hot take: racism isn't the only Big Bad™ and arguing over whether a conservative view is racist or not is pointless when it's demonstrably inhumane and ridiculous without even going into 'race' territory

Do you want to argue why no death penalty even for the most heinous crimes is inhumane and ridiculous?


not with you because it'll probably end up more like me giving you basic facts and figures while you make apologies for the fact that google is blocked where you live and you couldn't also obtain these basic facts and figures

We're talking about morality and I have read about it.
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Post Post #19405  (isolation #140)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:04 pm

In post 19401, YellowSnow wrote:
In post 19391, Creature wrote:
In post 19386, YellowSnow wrote:
In post 19384, theplague42 wrote:
In post 19381, YellowSnow wrote:Don't you think the argument could be made that blacks are more violent with firearms than whites(especially with gang violence).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... 83d9a78ff7

gun control doesn't stop the criminals though so why bother passing it


I'm in favor of strict gun control(police/military only for all firearms).

I'm not. I'm in favor of gun ownership until a certain point (and under some restrictions obviously).


I have never had a gun and I feel a lot safer than I would having had one. I've never been attacked by anyone. I don't know if I'm just a nice guy or what but I don't think I need a gun to defend myself and I don't think the ungodly amount of people killed by guns justifies the need for defense.

Well, I live in a country that had 60k homicides in a single year and people getting mugged is pretty constant. The muggers have guns regardless of what the law says and the people around them can't do anything about it. So yeah, it proves to be necessary for us to have some sort of self-defense rather than just give the mugger whatever he wants.

I personally wouldn't want to ever be forced to use a gun, but I think a lot of people would need them atleast to scare the muggers away.
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Post Post #19407  (isolation #141)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:06 pm

In post 19404, theplague42 wrote:
In post 19402, Creature wrote:We're talking about morality and I have read about it.

Executing people is a moral duty?

If someone brutally murdered an entire family, yes, it's definitely a moral duty. Simply giving them a fair lifetime at prison is like treating their victims as if they were low value.
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Post Post #19409  (isolation #142)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:10 pm

In post 19407, YellowSnow wrote:I'm pretty sure if the muggers have guns too it might not help that much.

unless it's a crowded place or the victim somehow reacts appropriately.
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Post Post #19412  (isolation #143)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:13 pm

In post 19412, YellowSnow wrote:Basically your argument is guns are necessary in areas with high crime so rather than lower crime we should increase gun ownership. Japan has strict gun laws and gun violence is at about zero.

You're right, it depends on the place. I was saying my country needed it the most.

And yes, I voted for Bolsonaro.
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Post Post #19414  (isolation #144)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:21 pm

I think 100% of the people have some sort of preconception and concentrating it into a political side is just pretty bogus.
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Post Post #19418  (isolation #145)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:41 pm

In post 19416, u r a person 2 wrote:
In post 19415, Creature wrote:I think 100% of the people have some sort of preconception and concentrating it into a political side is just pretty bogus.

A case has been made that some, or all, republican party policy stances are rooted in racism.
If this is a "both sides do it" situation, then what are the racist Democrat policy stances?

Well, I'm not skilled enough to find subtle racism in policies, but I'm pretty sure victimizing minorities (Complex of Pity) is unconscious racism.
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Post Post #19421  (isolation #146)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:50 pm

In post 19420, Psyche wrote:the saddest thing about democracy is that it gives people as plainly incompetent and shameless as you any political power

So I take it you don't like democracy?
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Post Post #19423  (isolation #147)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:00 pm

In post 19423, u r a person 2 wrote:
In post 19419, Creature wrote:Well, I'm not skilled enough to find subtle racism in policies, but I'm pretty sure victimizing minorities (Complex of Pity) is unconscious racism.


Complex of Pity is not a term I'm familiar with, so I want to clarify. Is this the idea?

>Liberals identified that economic/societal/whatever outcomes for minorities were lower on average for minorities
>Liberals blame these outcomes not on the minorities themselves, but on the system under which we all live
>Liberals raise awareness of these issues, causing minority communities to see themselves as victims.
>This results in minority communities that are unable to improve their own lots because their agency has been stripped of them by way of being called a victim
>This is racist because if liberals really believed that minorities were equally capable they wouldn't feel the need to intervene

Am I getting the gist of it? I don't want to argue over something I don't understand.

Let's say that if someone pitied me for being Latin American with lower wage than the average American I would feel slightly offended because I feel like I'm able myself.
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Post Post #19425  (isolation #148)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:03 pm

It has been great debating with you (u r person 2, YellowSnow, T-Bone, Slaxx, might have missed someone). I'm sorry I couldn't expound my ideas well enough.

I don't think we should keep this debate in this forums. If you know one forum that is more open for politics, I'm all ears.

Thank you for trying to understand.
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Post Post #19427  (isolation #149)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:09 pm

In post 19427, u r a person 2 wrote:things like,
building ramps for people in wheel chairs is ableist
putting braille on signs is ableist

but political correctness isn't.
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Post Post #19429  (isolation #150)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:11 pm

I think some people just love how they are and they hate dragging someone down for them.
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Post Post #19431  (isolation #151)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:15 pm

I'm not against institutions that help minorities, but I feel like they should be aimed to include them into society.
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Post Post #19434  (isolation #152)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:18 pm

In post 19431, u r a person 2 wrote:
In post 19428, Creature wrote:
In post 19427, u r a person 2 wrote:things like,
building ramps for people in wheel chairs is ableist
putting braille on signs is ableist

but political correctness isn't.

i don't understand what you're trying to say here

I feel like "political correctness" is what is often used to include minorities into society.

Many people are willing to accept minorities into society, but none of them like being called bigoted for something trivial.
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Post Post #19436  (isolation #153)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:20 pm

In post 19433, u r a person 2 wrote:
In post 19430, Creature wrote:I think some people just love how they are and they hate dragging someone down for them.

got it.

some minorities enjoy being oppressed in our society, and it's racist to try and mitigate the oppression of any minorities as a result.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

The "oppressed" word is wrong.

I have atleast one thing that would make me a minority, yet I don't feel oppressed because of it. Like, I don't feel like accepting something exclusive for my condition.
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Post Post #19437  (isolation #154)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:23 pm

Maybe we have different things in mind.

Still, gun ownership is racist? Anti-abortion is racist? Anti-legalization is racist? Economic conservativism is racist?

Like, if Steve Jobs was racist then I'm supposed to not buy any Apple product?
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Post Post #19441  (isolation #155)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:32 pm

In post 19440, u r a person 2 wrote:@creature Mate, there is a long and fruitful discussion on whether or not specific conservative policies are rooted in racism over the last few pages. I asked if you could come up with one liberal policy rooted in racism and you came up way short.

What first started is that I said everyone (100%) has their own preconception, regardless of what they call themselves. It isn't politically, it's philosophically.

I think it's pretty wrong saying only a set of ideas is correct while any opposing idea is automatically racist.

Also I define preconception as: judging people based on their appearance. It doesn't matter if I judge them disgusting or worth pitying, it matters that I'm treating them differently solely because of something they can't control.

Likely your definition is different, but that won't actually make people that disagree with a liberal idea to be bigoted, nor supporting an idea initially rooted in bigotry that could benefit them and even said minorities.
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Post Post #19442  (isolation #156)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:32 pm

Also, if you pity someone, aren't you recognizing that person is inferior?
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Post Post #19443  (isolation #157)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:34 pm

I know it's bad to be called bigoted on something so trivial like that, I feel the same rn. I also recognize that you must genuinely feel compassion for said people, but it still requires you to judge them.
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Post Post #19447  (isolation #158)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:04 pm

In post 19447, u r a person 2 wrote:I'm pretty done here for the day

Me too.

Still I don't think pointing an idea has been initially rooted from bigotry is going to change someone's mind.

No one will cease being Christian because it was originally bigoted. No one will change their mind about the goods of human society because it started from racism.

It's also pretty wrong to call them bigoted (or morally inferior) just because of the above.
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Post Post #19451  (isolation #159)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:16 pm

I think you're wrong on what is a morally reprehensible policy, but whatever, we're going circular.
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Post Post #19455  (isolation #160)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:19 pm

In post 19455, YellowSnow wrote:So they want whites as slaves?

Eh, I still haven't heard what is exactly the reparative system.

though yeah, if it is punishing whites because of their ancestors, it's definitely not reparative.
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Post Post #19458  (isolation #161)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:29 pm

Did you mean this?
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Post Post #19461  (isolation #162)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:32 pm

Well, guess I'll just get a tan then.
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Post Post #19488  (isolation #163)  » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:53 am

People oppress each other in various ways.
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Post Post #19584  (isolation #164)  » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:26 pm

Glad we share the same goal.
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Post Post #19587  (isolation #165)  » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:30 pm

Anyone said about 1 trillion?
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Post Post #19593  (isolation #166)  » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:02 pm

In post 19589, YellowSnow wrote:If you had a 500 billion amount you'd have people complaining about the amount being low.

500 billions invested only in the reparative system is still too much.
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Post Post #19596  (isolation #167)  » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:06 pm

I wonder if he did mean they don't want the reparative programs.
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Post Post #19743  (isolation #168)  » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:35 pm

I'm bored and this is the only thread that remains.
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Post Post #19746  (isolation #169)  » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:46 pm

Duh man, wasn't gonna talk about politic views at all
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Post Post #19776  (isolation #170)  » Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:26 pm

Image
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Post Post #20417  (isolation #171)  » Thu May 16, 2019 5:36 pm

tmw people read "news"
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Post Post #20574  (isolation #172)  » Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:20 am

In post 20556, Persivul wrote:Trump sucks. This economic prosperity thing is getting out of control. It needs to be stopped. Blue in 2020!

Is Trump really the only Republican candidate possible?
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Post Post #20660  (isolation #173)  » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:24 am

How many progressive taxes have been done?
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Post Post #20665  (isolation #174)  » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:33 am

In post 20662, Cheetory6 wrote:I don't really understand why some people think that working hard is the only thing worth considering in terms of someone's success
when some of the biggest factors in how likely people are to succeed are just the circumstances that they're given

It isn't working hard, it's working hard and smart.
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Post Post #20685  (isolation #175)  » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:08 am

Man, why are people so pessimistic nowadays?
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Post Post #20686  (isolation #176)  » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:15 am

Yeah, hard work and smart thinking isn't everything. The same way some students don't study at all yet still do good while some others study quite hard yet still fail, but you can't negate studying plays a big part to getting good grades here.

Luck: serves you nothing if you can't spot it. That man sitting on the other side of the cafeteria may be willing to give you a high wage job if you bother to ask yet you're not utilizing that opportunity.
Circumstances: doesn't really mean you will do well unless you know how to use them to your favour. Even people on unfavorable circumstances can do pretty well if they can use it well.

I think anyone has their secret formula for success and it depends mostly on them than on anything else.
Yeah, some people are born less brighter than others, but nothing can be done for them besides themselves.
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Post Post #20688  (isolation #177)  » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:21 am

Just to be clear I don't have a strong stance on how taxes should be done, but I have a strong stance that success relies more on the person themself than "circumstances".
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Post Post #20709  (isolation #178)  » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:55 pm

In post 20693, AniX wrote:
In post 20687, Fluminator wrote:
Cheetory6 wrote:Where are you drawing a distinction of "we should stop intervening at _________"?

Everyone wants to help the poor nominally at least. I just think there are better ways to help them then saying "you weren't born lucky so you're kind of screwed. Have a little bit of extra money dumped on you and rely on the government to get by" It's kind of a toxic ideology.

(And Psyche saying that the act of being hardworking (industriousness) is luck is kind of a little too far for me to swallow)


How is the trait of "being harkworking" developed?

If it is genetic that some people are more likely to be hard-working: Obviously this is luck-based. It is something entirely out of their control.

If it is the result of one's upbringing? People cannot choose their upbringing anymore than their genetics.

If it is the result of one's environment? When they are older, they certainly can influence this to some degree (but are limited by the upbringing and genetics that came before) but while young obviously this is a result of factors out of their control too.

Hard-working isn't something someone can just will themselves to be. This isn't a Satre wonderland where we are all radically free. We are influenced, controlled, and dictated by our experiences.

It's not genetics, it's who they hang/friend/live with.

If someone's "genetic" is to hang/friend/live with only bad or pessimistic people, nothing can be done for them.
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Post Post #20713  (isolation #179)  » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:58 pm

In post 20692, Psyche wrote:the thing is, circumstances shape a person
from birth until the end they shape not just if someone's gotten a decent education but also personality traits tied to success like conscientiousness, industriousness, and openness to experience
you can't really cleanly separate a person from their circumstances and treat that as a basis for blaming most failure on the people failing
and again, this is a massive distraction from the possibility of worthwhile discussion

Blaming the circumstances for your failures won't help either. Circumstances is just a part, like the blocks you have to build something.
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Post Post #20733  (isolation #180)  » Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:09 pm

Being born within a rich family isn't necessarily success ftr.
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Post Post #20825  (isolation #181)  » Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:52 am

In post 20823, shaft.ed wrote:Trump is the most unpopular president this country has ever had

Bush was re-elected though? Anything can happen.
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Post Post #20869  (isolation #182)  » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:30 pm

In post 20843, kuribo wrote:
In post 20838, Persivul wrote:
In post 20833, shaft.ed wrote:who's taking what too far?

SJWs are taking identity politics and demonization of their opponents too far.


Counterpoint: white nationalists also make politics about identity


And it's kinda fucking hard to keep identity out of politics when one party advocates treating people poorly BASED ON THE COLOR OF THEIR FUCKING SKIN.

Both sides are being bad tbh.
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Post Post #20872  (isolation #183)  » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:31 pm

idk why people are so obsessed with politicians that want to divide people into groups.
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Post Post #20886  (isolation #184)  » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:39 pm

In post 20875, kuribo wrote:
In post 20869, Creature wrote:
In post 20843, kuribo wrote:
In post 20838, Persivul wrote:
In post 20833, shaft.ed wrote:who's taking what too far?

SJWs are taking identity politics and demonization of their opponents too far.


Counterpoint: white nationalists also make politics about identity


And it's kinda fucking hard to keep identity out of politics when one party advocates treating people poorly BASED ON THE COLOR OF THEIR FUCKING SKIN.

Both sides are being bad tbh.


Yeah I'm a real asshole for thinking "go back where you came from" is a shitty thing to say to Americans and for thinking "JEWS WILL NOT REPLACE US" is an unacceptable viewpoint.

GFY.

That's objecting to one end, not taking opposite identity politics.
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Post Post #20892  (isolation #185)  » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:42 pm

In post 20888, shaft.ed wrote:
In post 20872, Creature wrote:idk why people are so obsessed with politicians that want to divide people into groups.

because he's the president?

Yeah, I hate when he does that too ("European culture").
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Post Post #20899  (isolation #186)  » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:49 pm

In post 20889, shaft.ed wrote:
In post 20875, kuribo wrote:
In post 20869, Creature wrote:
In post 20843, kuribo wrote:
In post 20838, Persivul wrote:
In post 20833, shaft.ed wrote:who's taking what too far?

SJWs are taking identity politics and demonization of their opponents too far.


Counterpoint: white nationalists also make politics about identity


And it's kinda fucking hard to keep identity out of politics when one party advocates treating people poorly BASED ON THE COLOR OF THEIR FUCKING SKIN.

Both sides are being bad tbh.


Yeah I'm a real asshole for thinking "go back where you came from" is a shitty thing to say to Americans and for thinking "JEWS WILL NOT REPLACE US" is an unacceptable viewpoint.

GFY.
but the left said sexual assault is bad so both sides

It's not a "We should kill Toby" vs "We shouldn't kill Toby" dichotomy, it's about a "We should kill Toby" vs "We should kill Teddy" dichotomy I call both sides bad.
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Post Post #20917  (isolation #187)  » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:15 pm

I like my sig.
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Post Post #20922  (isolation #188)  » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:21 pm

In post 20919, kuribo wrote:
In post 20917, Creature wrote:I like my sig.



You shouldn't @yourself in your sig that way, you'll make people think you have low self esteem.

says the one throwing a tantrum on a forum about mafia.
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Post Post #20926  (isolation #189)  » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:25 pm

In post 20925, chennisden wrote:
In post 20899, Creature wrote:
In post 20889, shaft.ed wrote:
In post 20875, kuribo wrote:
In post 20869, Creature wrote:
In post 20843, kuribo wrote:
In post 20838, Persivul wrote:
In post 20833, shaft.ed wrote:who's taking what too far?

SJWs are taking identity politics and demonization of their opponents too far.


Counterpoint: white nationalists also make politics about identity


And it's kinda fucking hard to keep identity out of politics when one party advocates treating people poorly BASED ON THE COLOR OF THEIR FUCKING SKIN.

Both sides are being bad tbh.


Yeah I'm a real asshole for thinking "go back where you came from" is a shitty thing to say to Americans and for thinking "JEWS WILL NOT REPLACE US" is an unacceptable viewpoint.

GFY.
but the left said sexual assault is bad so both sides

It's not a "We should kill Toby" vs "We shouldn't kill Toby" dichotomy, it's about a "We should kill Toby" vs "We should kill Teddy" dichotomy I call both sides bad.

Degree matters

Yes, but it's definitely not demonizing any group.
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Post Post #20928  (isolation #190)  » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:32 pm

I'm personally against all this white vs color war. Demonizing one side or other will never solve it.
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Post Post #20930  (isolation #191)  » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:34 pm

Wished there was one function specifically to take care of all the economy rather than have one single person take care of both the economy and the people's moods.
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Post Post #20936  (isolation #192)  » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:50 pm

In post 20933, kuribo wrote:
In post 20928, Creature wrote:I'm personally against all this white vs color war. Demonizing one side or other will never solve it.



Jews: *exist*

Neo-Nazis: "JEWS WILL NOT REPLACE US!"

Black people: *exist*

Neo-Nazis: "Send the dindus back to Africa!"


Hmmm yes both sides are awful, thanks for the enlightened centrism.

Oh right, you're gonna pretend you didn't get what I said.
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Post Post #20941  (isolation #193)  » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:58 pm

In post 20938, shaft.ed wrote:You're saying you want racism to stop
but you think bothsiderism is the solution

No, I'm saying grouping people into oppressors vs oppressed based on race, gender, whatever then attacking the "oppressors" is also unacceptable.
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Post Post #20946  (isolation #194)  » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:01 pm

In post 20943, shaft.ed wrote:
In post 20941, Creature wrote:
In post 20938, shaft.ed wrote:You're saying you want racism to stop
but you think bothsiderism is the solution

No, I'm saying grouping people into oppressors vs oppressed based on race, gender, whatever then attacking the "oppressors" is also unacceptable.
so how should one fight back against racism?

Definitely not calling the other side evil.
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Post Post #20947  (isolation #195)  » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:02 pm

In post 20945, theplague42 wrote:
In post 20941, Creature wrote:
In post 20938, shaft.ed wrote:You're saying you want racism to stop
but you think bothsiderism is the solution

No, I'm saying grouping people into oppressors vs oppressed based on race, gender, whatever then attacking the "oppressors" is also unacceptable.

So oppression don't real?

It comes from a select number of people, not from an entire group.
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Post Post #20956  (isolation #196)  » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:10 pm

In post 20950, shaft.ed wrote:
In post 20946, Creature wrote:
In post 20943, shaft.ed wrote:
In post 20941, Creature wrote:
In post 20938, shaft.ed wrote:You're saying you want racism to stop
but you think bothsiderism is the solution

No, I'm saying grouping people into oppressors vs oppressed based on race, gender, whatever then attacking the "oppressors" is also unacceptable.
so how should one fight back against racism?

Definitely not calling the other side evil.
so racism isn't evil?

I'm referring to calling white people evil.
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Post Post #20963  (isolation #197)  » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:13 pm

In post 20954, theplague42 wrote:
In post 20947, Creature wrote:It comes from a select number of people, not from an entire group.

So implicit bias don't real?

I'm not talking about implicit bias, I'm talking about actually harmful oppression.
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Post Post #20968  (isolation #198)  » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:18 pm

In post 20838, Persivul wrote:
In post 20833, shaft.ed wrote:who's taking what too far?

SJWs are taking identity politics and demonization of their opponents too far.

Again, that's the side I called bad.
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Post Post #20971  (isolation #199)  » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:19 pm

I'm okay with anti-neonazi groups as long they don't trigger vigilantism.
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