"Don't look too town as scum"

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Post Post #13 (isolation #0) » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:59 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

I know how to play vt and scum, it’s playing PRs that wreck me. :/
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #14 (isolation #1) » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:07 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

It’s worth noting the obvious, that most mislynches happen because of town looking too much like scum, which usually means they’re town lhf.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #21 (isolation #2) » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:24 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 17, PokerFace wrote:People usually vote the scumiest before they vote the towniest. As long as all living players are not more town than you, you should be fine faking town as scum. The only time being too town as scum is bad is if you give town too much help. For example...

You are heading toward a prisoners dilemma. The right play is for town to force scum to kill each other. You are scum. For some reason you tell the town the ideal play

Telling the enemy the ideal play when the ideal play is too good, is a bad time to be too town as scum. There's a reason I got the title too useful...
I think it’s a difficult thing for scum to manage - posting like they would as town - with a townie mindset and not play against their wincon. Only the best and most experienced players, have figured out how to correctly navigate this fine line. For most players however, it is beyond their scumrange to be able to successfully pull that off.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #22 (isolation #3) » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:27 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 19, the worst wrote:
In post 16, mhsmith0 wrote:I'd say that "looking town" in a lot of peoples' minds is a function of consistent engagement, making sense, and sounding like an intelligent human being.

None of those things are actually towntells, of course, and in terms of many peoples' metas, are explicit scumtells.
note to self: don't roll scum against mhsmith0
he's already onto you
:lol:

It kind of blows my mind, when scum thinks they can get away with nonsensical WIFOM - most can’t and many horribly over-estimate their ability to successfully pull that off.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #40 (isolation #4) » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:54 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 36, Persivul wrote:Mafia isn't easy.

First, you need to learn how to scum hunt as town. Even if you're not successful at identifying scum that often, if you're overtly hunting, at least you're giving other townies a fair shot to read YOU as town.

Then, you have to learn how to FAKE that same scum hunting as scum. That's hard for most people. They get caught as scum and don't like rolling scum. The right thing to do here is to continue working at it, but some people:

Let their town play get scummy as well. They don't overtly scum hunt. They don't make themselves transparent. The result of this is:
- in time, they win more as scum, because their scum game now looks like their town game.
- but, they're harder to read as town also, so their town win rate goes down.

IOW, your town and scum games need to look the same in order to be successful. You can accomplish that by either improving your scum game to make it look town, or sandbagging on your town game to make it look scum. To the extent that people on site do the latter, town win rates suffer.

I think that people who have a higher win rate as scum than as town have frequently done the latter.
Well scum KNOW who scum are, being the “informed minority”, unless it’s multiball, so you’d have to mimic badtown and hunt for viable mislynchbait. :lol:

The problems occur, when that’s hard to find.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #41 (isolation #5) » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:56 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 37, northsidegal wrote:i think very, very few people have ever deliberately held back their towngame to improve their scumgame

i think a very large portion of the playerlist has a higher scum winrate than town winrate and that has no correlation at all with any sandbagging at all.
Town usually plays bad and mislynches the lhf, which scum usually isn’t.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #90 (isolation #6) » Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:54 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 89, Ankamius wrote:If you aren't consciously trying to reach a won endgame, you can't call yourself a good scum tbh

This is ignoring games where you have no choice but to play to survive to have any chance
In Heroes, Math gave me good advice about “planting seeds”, rather than actually push an agenda. Unfortunately, he got overly enthusiastic stopped taking his own good advice.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #92 (isolation #7) » Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:59 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 91, Ankamius wrote:
In post 90, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 89, Ankamius wrote:If you aren't consciously trying to reach a won endgame, you can't call yourself a good scum tbh

This is ignoring games where you have no choice but to play to survive to have any chance
In Heroes, Math gave me good advice about “planting seeds”, rather than actually push an agenda. Unfortunately, he got overly enthusiastic stopped taking his own good advice.
That still counts, since he really only miscalculated the won endgame state and played his cards too quickly

Scum would have won that game otherwise since town was herpaderping
Yeah, that and we were also foiled by Drixx’s ingenious plan.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #102 (isolation #8) » Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:18 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 98, Ankamius wrote:
In post 95, RadiantCowbells wrote:That seems like an awful lot of mistakes :P
Scum is a lot harder when you can't take over the game through force of will, since you can run into those pitfalls a lot more easily
It’s also at least partially dependent on your teammates. Having Numbers force us to bus him, didn’t give us a good start and then there was that insane list, where he outted the entire team that Muffin almost caught. :facepalm:
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #104 (isolation #9) » Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:21 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

Setup is also a major factor. In two A50 games, I was on the bad side of swing. In OK 1, I was felled by a flavour cop and in OK 2, I lost to an SK who received amnesiac cop results. :/
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #105 (isolation #10) » Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:24 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 103, Ankamius wrote:
In post 102, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 98, Ankamius wrote:
In post 95, RadiantCowbells wrote:That seems like an awful lot of mistakes :P
Scum is a lot harder when you can't take over the game through force of will, since you can run into those pitfalls a lot more easily
It’s also at least partially dependent on your teammates. Having Numbers force us to bus him, didn’t give us a good start and then there was that insane list, where he outted the entire team that Muffin almost caught. :facepalm:
I caught three of you day one >_>

I just happened to let my read of you go

And then I caught a fourth when I was waiting to reenter the game
It was my first scumgame ever. I made the mistake of just trying to mimic Titus.

But you also thought Numbers had “town markers”. :lol:
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #107 (isolation #11) » Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:34 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 106, Ankamius wrote:
In post 105, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:

It was my first scumgame ever. I made the mistake of just trying to mimic Titus.

But you also thought Numbers had “town markers”. :lol:
That was more me tilting from the way you were responding to me than anything else

Titus being elected snapped me out of that real quick
I think I did pretty well for my first time, all things considered.

Having lots of mislynchbaitytown also helps a lot. That’s at least part of the reason, I won my first scumgame on MU, that and strategically planned night kills. :twisted:
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #109 (isolation #12) » Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:45 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 108, Ankamius wrote:I'm still the only person who will ever be the first person that caught you as scum though

don't forget that ;)
:cry:

I know, you never forget your first. You’ll always have a place in my scummy heart. <3


Spoiler:
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #112 (isolation #13) » Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:12 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 110, RadiantCowbells wrote:Can I be the only person who was the first person to claim an innocent on you for purity when you were town?
Of course. <3

Spoiler:
Image
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #138 (isolation #14) » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:34 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 123, Ankamius wrote:
In post 120, Creature wrote:As for town, I think you'd really want to be the good player scum wants to kill.

I find that my survive/endgame winrate is significantly better than my nightkill winrate.

So yeah, having good town players making long into the game may be one big step to win as town.

If you frequently get endgamed by scum, maybe you might be the bad player scum leaves alive for lategame.
This is exactly why I think read strength is vastly overrated on this site

If you are the only player with good reads, you need to be alive in order to exert your influence on the game enough that town can be pushed onto the right track before scum catch on and kill you.

Town wins when the last scum is killed, so you need to push the game in a direction that will result in every scum being lynched, even if it will take time to do.

Every convincing town victory I've ever taken part in functioned like this. There was always at least one scum that managed to stay hidden while their team collapsed, but it was impossible for town to lose since the game was on a trajectory towards eventually resulting in their death anyways.

Yet whenever I see postgames where town loses, a lot of the complaining is that people didn't have correct reads or went to bat for a scumread that they locked town, etc. etc. when a little bit of inspection beyond that would show that the problem is as simple as town universally ridiculing their reads when they first state them or something similar.

I kinda feel like this is a side effect of the community at large more than just the mafia side, since I feel like this issue only started around 2014 or 2015; at least my 2011 and 2012 games felt a lot different than they have the last few years; the older games focused on reads more since that was the prevailing issue that was losing town games if I remember correctly
Town usually loses, when I die early, do to mislynching.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #139 (isolation #15) » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:36 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 125, Ankamius wrote:
In post 124, mhsmith0 wrote:
In post 121, Ankamius wrote:I remember calculating it a while back and I had like a 44-46%, somewhere in that range

And I was embarrassed
A sub .500 town win rate even on this site SHOULD be embarrassing for anyone who thinks they're good as town
(I believe I'm at 46% :P - fortunately I'm well ahead of the game in terms of blaming setup/teammates/luck/etc :P )
My playstyle is a bit too different from the norm here to be consistently usable I think

I have a lot (a LOT) of games where I can't get any headway at all and it's the worst feeling.
Yeah, it’s just luck to die early in the games, I’m most into. :/
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #141 (isolation #16) » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:41 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 131, Creature wrote:I don't really think RC is sacrificing her towngame. At worst she can be paranoia lynched, but that's it.

I know plenty of players that are good as scum but atrocious as town, but I don't think RC is one of them.
RC has much better than average reads, he’s also really good at pushing those reads. My weakness is the latter. If town listened to me more, they would lose less but I really suck at convincing people. :(
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #143 (isolation #17) » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:44 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 134, Ankamius wrote:Obligatory addendum that I'm referring to okay reads vs good reads vs great reads

Obviously if your read strength is just bad in all your games then you need to work on it, but you can have strong town games with okay reads; as long as you're able to pick out which scumread to push, the accuracy of the rest of your reads at that point matter a lot less.
I have much better reads than average but I don’t do well at explaining them, so town all too frequently underestimates me, to its detriment. I’m terrible at casing people, especially.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #144 (isolation #18) » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:47 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 140, Ankamius wrote:That's probably linked, Nancy

Town that's hyperengaged is a threat to scum
Yeah, true, because when I’m not, I have no clue what’s going on. I’ve actually been frozen as both town and scum. I do the best in games with complex mechanics for some reason. The more traditional the game, the worse I play.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #145 (isolation #19) » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:49 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 142, Ankamius wrote:
In post 141, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 131, Creature wrote:I don't really think RC is sacrificing her towngame. At worst she can be paranoia lynched, but that's it.

I know plenty of players that are good as scum but atrocious as town, but I don't think RC is one of them.
RC has much better than average reads, he’s also really good at pushing those reads. My weakness is the latter. If town listened to me more, they would lose less but I really suck at convincing people. :(
There's a lot of ways to get your way outside of convincing people that your scumreads are scum

Go read through Necromancer again, it's a very good example of this in action
If you recall, scum bullied me and I sort of flaked. Part of the main reason I can be super aggressive, is to guard against that.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Nancy Drew 39
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Not that Inno Scent
Posts: 14979
Joined: January 14, 2018
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Location: HYDRAs 4EVA!!!
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Post Post #150 (isolation #20) » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:56 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 146, Ankamius wrote:
In post 143, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 134, Ankamius wrote:Obligatory addendum that I'm referring to okay reads vs good reads vs great reads

Obviously if your read strength is just bad in all your games then you need to work on it, but you can have strong town games with okay reads; as long as you're able to pick out which scumread to push, the accuracy of the rest of your reads at that point matter a lot less.
I have much better reads than average but I don’t do well at explaining them, so town all too frequently underestimates me, to its detriment. I’m terrible at casing people, especially.
Start small and work your way up

Start with people who are scumreading your top scumread but not very much, they'll be easier to convince. Then go to nulls. After that, it should be easy to shift enough people for a lynch.

You can also try to convince the nonentities first or those that aren't super engaged, at least then people will
have
to pay attention to your read.

You can also cockblock the wagons on your townreads and convince enough people that they are town that they have to restructure their reads, which is an opportunity to get another wagon going.

There's a lot of ways to do it, you just need to find one that will work for that specific game.
What’s the absolute most frustrating thing to me, is that while most of my reads are based on logic. the conviction comes from a strong gut read and people don’t listen to that, eventhough my gutreads have an extremely high accuracy rate. I basically just absorb all the information in like a sponge, make the logical connections in my head and get a confident read but when I try to explain it, I more often than not, get shut down and it’s so extremely frustrating. :(
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Nancy Drew 39
Nancy Drew 39
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Not that Inno Scent
User avatar
User avatar
Nancy Drew 39
She/Her
Not that Inno Scent
Not that Inno Scent
Posts: 14979
Joined: January 14, 2018
Pronoun: She/Her
Location: HYDRAs 4EVA!!!
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Post Post #151 (isolation #21) » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:00 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 149, Ankamius wrote:
In post 148, Creature wrote:
In post 142, Ankamius wrote:There's a lot of ways to get your way outside of convincing people that your scumreads are scum
Faking guilties on them.
If you want people to stop trusting you in the future sure
+1

Yeah, if there’s one thing, I’d like to 98% stamp out of games, it’s that. I don’t understand how anyone doesn’t get this. Your credibility is everything and if you sacrifice it, you could have a valid guilty and not be believed and it hurts the gamestate in general. But there’s not a single person anywhere, who can ever rightly accuse me of doing that.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
User avatar
Nancy Drew 39
Nancy Drew 39
She/Her
Not that Inno Scent
User avatar
User avatar
Nancy Drew 39
She/Her
Not that Inno Scent
Not that Inno Scent
Posts: 14979
Joined: January 14, 2018
Pronoun: She/Her
Location: HYDRAs 4EVA!!!
Contact:

Post Post #153 (isolation #22) » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:13 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 152, Ankamius wrote:
In post 150, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:What’s the absolute most frustrating thing to me, is that while most of my reads are based on logic. the conviction comes from a strong gut read and people don’t listen to that, eventhough my gutreads have an extremely high accuracy rate. I basically just absorb all the information in like a sponge, make the logical connections in my head and get a confident read but when I try to explain it, I more often than not, get shut down and it’s so extremely frustrating.
If we roll town in our hydra game whenever that happens, I'll help teach you how to go about it at least

I was the exact same a few years ago and it really just needs a mindset shift to fix
Yeah thanks, that would be awesome. <3

That’s what was so great about hydraing with RC. We pretty much mindmelded on reads but he helped push them through and I was so envious of that.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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