"Don't look too town as scum"

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Post Post #7 (isolation #0) » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:24 am

Post by Creature »

tbh players get paranoid regardless and sometimes you survive as obvtown because you're prone to paranoia anyway
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Post Post #68 (isolation #1) » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:55 pm

Post by Creature »

I think "Don't look too town as town" is a good scum strategy too.
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Post Post #114 (isolation #2) » Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:26 am

Post by Creature »

In post 99, Ankamius wrote:
In post 96, RadiantCowbells wrote:Like fucking creature has 11/8 scum wr

That's baseline

To be competent scum you gotta be far above that

And to be great scum you gotta be far above that.
It's horrifying for the state of towns on this site if a 55-60% win rate as scum is just average
Yes, it is. The good town players have a winrate that ranges 40%-50%.
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Post Post #115 (isolation #3) » Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:27 am

Post by Creature »

50%+ town winrate is usually attributed to newer players. Time smooths it up.
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Post Post #116 (isolation #4) » Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:28 am

Post by Creature »

As for scum, keeping it to being as towny as possible isn't the only valid strategy.

Like, if you're looking to survive to endgame:
- Do the enough to not be the priority kill
- Kill the players that would best read you
- Leave the bad players
- Freely follow your agenda because there's no good player to point it out anyway
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Post Post #117 (isolation #5) » Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:31 am

Post by Creature »

It's somewhat what I did at Mini 2030 after FL fakeclaimed mason with me: I got rid of players that could best read me with a good excuse and at endgame, even though it was painfully obvious I was scum, people weren't really willing to reconsider me.
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Post Post #120 (isolation #6) » Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:41 am

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As for town, I think you'd really want to be the good player scum wants to kill.

I find that my survive/endgame winrate is significantly better than my nightkill winrate.

So yeah, having good town players making long into the game may be one big step to win as town.

If you frequently get endgamed by scum, maybe you might be the bad player scum leaves alive for lategame.
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Post Post #122 (isolation #7) » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:01 am

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After you've played 100+ games it's expected to have 44-46% winrate.
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Post Post #129 (isolation #8) » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:30 am

Post by Creature »

In post 123, Ankamius wrote:
In post 120, Creature wrote:As for town, I think you'd really want to be the good player scum wants to kill.

I find that my survive/endgame winrate is significantly better than my nightkill winrate.

So yeah, having good town players making long into the game may be one big step to win as town.

If you frequently get endgamed by scum, maybe you might be the bad player scum leaves alive for lategame.
This is exactly why I think read strength is vastly overrated on this site

If you are the only player with good reads, you need to be alive in order to exert your influence on the game enough that town can be pushed onto the right track before scum catch on and kill you.

Town wins when the last scum is killed, so you need to push the game in a direction that will result in every scum being lynched, even if it will take time to do.

Every convincing town victory I've ever taken part in functioned like this. There was always at least one scum that managed to stay hidden while their team collapsed, but it was impossible for town to lose since the game was on a trajectory towards eventually resulting in their death anyways.

Yet whenever I see postgames where town loses, a lot of the complaining is that people didn't have correct reads or went to bat for a scumread that they locked town, etc. etc. when a little bit of inspection beyond that would show that the problem is as simple as town universally ridiculing their reads when they first state them or something similar.

I kinda feel like this is a side effect of the community at large more than just the mafia side, since I feel like this issue only started around 2014 or 2015; at least my 2011 and 2012 games felt a lot different than they have the last few years; the older games focused on reads more since that was the prevailing issue that was losing town games if I remember correctly
Yeah, as someone who's often pointed out as having above than average reads yet being completely ignored during the practice, I can relate to this.

However, another thing I can relate to is that your reads D1 are often more likely to be wrong than your lategame reads. So if you're killed N1, you won't have the chance to fix your reads by adding something new and so it results on either: players ignoring you for your reads being "outdated", or players following your wrong reads.

It doesn't matter whether town simply sheeps the best player or not, everybody needs to actually have a decency when making reads. There gotta have multiple players that pose as a danger to scum so they can't get rid of all them before they solve the game.
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Post Post #131 (isolation #9) » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:33 am

Post by Creature »

I don't really think RC is sacrificing her towngame. At worst she can be paranoia lynched, but that's it.

I know plenty of players that are good as scum but atrocious as town, but I don't think RC is one of them.
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Post Post #137 (isolation #10) » Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:35 am

Post by Creature »

In post 135, mhsmith0 wrote:There's also a lot of validity in being able to develop a sense of when your reads seem really good and when you don't really have good reads
The latter is the kind of spot where you can end up forcing your crappy reads onto the gamestate and driving the game off a cliff, and is definitely a hurdle for a lot of people (even those who have good reads in a lot of games)
The flip side is that if you're TOO willing to compromise then you'll open yourself up to scum talking you off of good reads
As always, it's a balance and often a hard one at that.
Yeah, Civilization mafia was a pretty good experience for me.

I felt like my reads were way more flexible than most players' (specially the tunnelers), and thus I managed to find scum where other town struggled to. Though, at some point I started secondguessing my townreads and opening a path for scum and the tunnelers to push a mislynch through.

Guess you need to ask if you're being reasonable or just paranoid about being wrong/letting your scumread slip away.
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Post Post #148 (isolation #11) » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:54 am

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In post 142, Ankamius wrote:There's a lot of ways to get your way outside of convincing people that your scumreads are scum
Faking guilties on them.
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Post Post #164 (isolation #12) » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:14 am

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In post 163, Alchemist21 wrote:I don’t know how they got that rep
The history of AtE

Though I think RC has been AtEing less lately.
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