Mini Normal 2054: Winter's Sacrifice [Game Over]

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VOTE: Bujaber

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my bad, I think I skipped those, still don't like votes without a reason, even minimal

I had like 1 minute in the morning before I had to go (I was late anyway of course) so thought I should at least make a vote, but had no time to write anything else.

I feel like a spectator already

I actually don't like this. And I mean his RVS vote is just as lacking in context, no?

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I had this feeling that it was similar to something someone said in my previous game, when they were scum. And to me it felt like this was scum trying to active lurk.

Except I just checked and I wrongly scumread that slot (they were actually town, deep) and we almost lynched them. So I think maybe I have a bias towards that kind of post.

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It's too elaborate to fake

I mean it's not that hard. I have only played one game.

I'm not liking this hardcore defence of me. Feels a bit like trying way too hard to find townieness from what I said. As if he

knows

I'm town.

VOTE: Dannflor

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What about the rest of their play?

I mean there isn’t any? This naked vote thing kind of took over the game.

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Yeah, that's what I was getting at. It felt less contrived than the town read on you

I’m sure I’m just having a brain malfunction, but what felt less contrived?

I think Bujaber is town.

I do find it very funny how much you’re all reading into this naked vote thing. Like if I had time I would’ve said something when voting. (directed at that post by Bujaber which I mentioned earlier).

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Hey Xwing. Good to see you again

Also you're scum.

VOTE: Xwing

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I’m pretty busy rn, will post something proper when I have the time. Xwing’s posts still feel scummy to me though (at least from what’s I remember about town Xwing).

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Btw Xwing is low-key scumreading me without giving any reason whatsoever.

Probably I will have time on Friday to give a proper post about my thoughts, and if not definitely Saturday.

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yes, which is the same as what you did with me, so im not sure where you're going with this?
will wait for your catch up then, got high expectations..no pressure :p

Except it's not. You're trying to scumread me without scumread me. I just scumread you.

Now, my only experience with Xwing is in my only game (viewtopic.php?f=11&t=78151). While Xwing was not the most active player (a lot of stuff happened on weekends), I got a consistently townie feel. There was a lot of posting from what others have said and ..'s etc which is happening here, but there was an assuredness about him, and a transparentness about the thought process. Then when people started calling him out on the lack of thought, there was a conscious shift to try to change perceptions. I'm talking 200 where he just randomly calls a bunch of people town. And then there's the pretty bizzare read on me, where he goes from seemingly null in 227 to suddenly including me in his list of three scum, and not giving any reason whatsover for what feels like an evolution in his reads (and Xwing said explicitly at the beginning that he likes evolving his reads openly or something.

Tomorrow I will have a proper catch-up. The only posts I seem to be able to understand at the moment are X-wing's (hence why this is focused on him), which is slightly concerning giving that English should be my first language.

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Ok. I do feel as if I've been somewhat of a spectator, so I'm just going to do this from the start.

Spoiler: Tchill13

All the posts are bad. No substance at all. Pretty scummy.

Spoiler: xwing

Obviously I didn't like the opener. 198 is so contrived, and does virtually nothing to explain what was going on with the opener (the whole reason for the wagon). 227 is still really non-commital. I did not get anything like this when I played with town Xwing. It seems to me like trying to get on the good side of dan and Slaxx. [pst]245[/post] is complete garbage. There are no opinions given at all by Xwing. And I still struggle to see any reasons for anything he thinks.

Spoiler: Dannflor

I have no idea why I found his posts scummy. I don't actually think scum would try so hard to prevent a wagon on me. It provoked a pretty strong discussion which is exactly what he would want to avoid as scum.

Spoiler: JunkoChan

Starts off roleplaying with Gamma, then votes me for completely spurious reasons (24). Completely ignores my explanation of the naked vote. I do think the scumread is just a site meta thing though. It does bug me that she never addressed my response, but that isn't scummy at all (maybe even some slight town-inspired carelessness).

Spoiler: Gamma Emerald

I struggle to understand all the hate towards this. The start of the wagon seemed completely meaningless (based on 58, really?). But I don't so much object to that as it was pretty early on.

Spoiler: Sashaddin

There is a lack of conviction in some of their posts (I'm looking at you, 146). 209 is pretty bad. There is just no posts of real substance there. And then there's 306 which just comes from nowhere and almost feels made-up. I don't like this slot.

Spoiler: BuJaber

Obviously the entrance is pretty null. I don't like 68, 69, 71 or 76 though. They are very prescriptive on what people 'should' be doing, which I don't like, as the whole point of Mafia as I understand it is to understand the motivation behind doing things in a certain way. I don't see much town motivation in trying to make everyone play like robots. Oh and 86. I'm actually not liking this at all. Literally all he talks about is vagueries related to how a generic game 'might' go. This is active lurking, tbh. It just seems reasonably active when reading it superficially, but he's not saying anything at all. And the whole 'expectations' stuff (126). Sasha's post was so different to Xwing's, and it's also not fencesitty. This is a much more sneaky version of Xwing. [pst]128[/post] is so so so bad. Like he's literally saying why Xwing is his bigger scumread, but keeps the vote on Sasha. Why? Oh, perhaps because there's a wagon on Xwing already. 252 is at least a little bit more assertive, but there is still no opinions about what people said actually means, just some slightly irrelevant questions. 285 is again avoiding giving any thoughts about who is scum, instead using some dodgy 'who is voting who' analysis which I do not feel comes from town.

Spoiler: Slaxx

I like his approach. Very good at getting reactions. I do feel like this is a genuine attempt to scumhunt, so seems townie to me.

Spoiler: Persivul

The anger is real. Slightly swingy player it seems but very townie.

Spoiler: Egix96

Null. I don't know why people townread this, but it doesn't feel bad to me. I do find myself not remembering anything he says though.

Spoiler: Flubbernugget

I get similar vibes to Egix. Nothing particularly scummy, I just struggle to find anything that he says memorable. So pretty null.

Spoiler: Haschel Cedricson

I like this slot. 39 comes off townie to me, and the constant attempts to force answers out of people feels like genuine scumhunting to me. 239 to 242 are really good.

I'd love to vote Bujaber, but that isn't going anywhere. Still think Xwing is pretty scummy, but ditto. Tchill is scummy, so is sashadinn. At least Tchill has a wagon.

Town: Haschel, Dann, Persivul, Slaxx

Null: Egix, Flubber, Junko, Gamma,

Scum: Tchill, Xwing, Sashaddin, Bujaber

(Yes I am aware there is almost certainly not 4 scum. Shoot me).

VOTE: Tchill

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Oh I did not notice the vote from 328. If you want to join a Bujaber wagon I'm all ears.

VOTE: Bujaber

I played a couple of games ages ago on a different site (it used this wiki for roles and stuff), But really my proper experience is my only game here.

Most-Least Scummiest:
Bujaber,
Xwing,

Tchill/Sashadinn (they feel the same to me)

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Umm like Bujaber is my top scum read. Tchill is scummy, but I don't feel nearly as much scum from him as Bujaber. I did not 180, I changed my vote because it seems/seemed that Bujaber is possible. Bujaber is not a meh vote.

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Tchill, it isn’t really a read list that we/I want, it’s more ‘what do you think about what happened?’

Actually hammering now wouldn’t have been that bad (although I don’t like that Junko did it). So long as you declare L-1 I don’t see any reason to avoid it. And the main problem with that is that you seem to be treading very carefully about where you put your vote.

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There wasn’t an order. I should probably have layed that out better it I think it’s pretty clear my first preference is Bujaber, no? I still don’t understand why you feel I was ‘180’-ing. Dan indicated some willingness to lynch Bujaber so I moved to see if that would happen. I suggest you read the thread again if you think I’m lying about that.

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Well I misunderstood that a little then.

I thought there was more chance of Bujaber happening than there is.

You seem to be assuming that I had my next post planned when I voted Tchill. I really didn’t.

Anyway, I’m kind of back to the same point as before.

VOTE: Tchill

That’s L-1

Now please do give us some more of your thoughts about the game.

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I have said why I think he’s scum (spoiler in 334). If people don’t agree with me that’s their problem. I’m not going to go round hard-tunnelling, especially when I don’t have a reaction to this from Bujaber yet.

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VOTE: Bujaber

There’s some association here too. Like never mentioning the main wagon in the game.

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K. I’m not insane. Yay.

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And I have never seen in my life a townie that builds up a huge case on their top scumread only to vote someone else before. So I don't understand your townread on rooster at all. It shows lack of conviction in his own case.

VOTE: rooster

That surprises me.

You're not the only one whose name is spelt wrong constantly.

@Egix you know what a scum slip is? I can see that post meant for a faction chat and not this thread, rookie mistake but a possibility

Confusion

Also, I feel somewhat better towards Xwing today.

Other scum may well be Sash, but also 430 from Junko makes me feel bad. It would be so odd for scum to say something like that though, so IDK. Just why would a townie vote for someone they think's town? When they have actual scum reads.

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why have you changed your mind on me, after i called you out on it? it only makes my paranoia of you stronger..

You have returned to Xwing from our last game. I'm still not overly happy (though this now comes completely from my gut to your start), but people play better/worse all the time, so I'm no longer convinced by the meta reasons.

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@pedit: sash, i meant the ones who started the wagon on buj (e.g. percy and dann) are very townie, and i feel there's no scum agenda, so it's a good wagon to join fmpov..

You are missing someone from the start of that wagon...

But you scumread them, so that wouldn't work.

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how exactly? besides the meh entrance, i think i've played as i've always done..can you articulate it more please?

Well yeah I mean you have been recently. That's kind of what I said.

i dont scum read them? in fact, i've stated they're my strongest town reads..i dont understand what you're getting at..
also, i've stated that buj flipping red will most likely make you flip green, havent i?
though i should also add that buj flipping green wont look too good on you too..
so far i believe you can town up better than this, but as you said and i agree, different plays for different games..and im not really fond of using meta..
my beef with you mostly was how long it took you to change your stance on me..i felt like it was a hill you were willing to die on, similar feel to tchill's stance..and we know how tchill flipped..

Sorry I was trying to be mildly sarcastic. To be clear: I 'spearheaded' the Bujaber wagon, no?

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Yeah that post was horribly laid out. It was basically the same as theirs AFAIK. 334 in the spoiler.

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Primarily Sash (and I mean hopefully that's the scum team), and Junko rang a few bells, but nothing more. Nothing really changed since 470. I suppose Flubber and you maybe go on the same level as Junko, but I think I would need another flip to compare associations before I can have any certainty.

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i just feel really icky on roster slot..

You have never told me why you feel this way. I'd be interested.

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my beef with you mostly was how long it took you to change your stance on me..i felt like it was a hill you were willing to die on, similar feel to tchill's stance..and we know how tchill flipped..

I mean if this was the reason then OK, but it seems pretty shallow.

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297
298]
til now i still feel you haven't towned it up..
also, reasons dont have to be deep for them to be valid..i mean we even give credit to gut feels..
as reference, the first time i suspected tchill was based on his naked vote, which is as shallow as shallow can be..his follow up actions only made him as scummier though so that made it easier for us..

In that game yes you townread me (and so did a lot of people) but Flavour (who ended up solving the game very nicely) was scum reading me d1. So I'm not sure I'm so good at 'towning it up' as you think I am. Also that game just kind of became obvious really quickly. So I'm not sure I obvtown very much.

Also, if your interested in meta, I did play another town game after that (it was lovers, so ugh) - viewtopic.php?f=51&t=78360. I felt pretty rubbish for that whole game, but was town.

And of course reasons don't have to be so deep, but they should probably get deeper over time, no? My read on you didn't really get any worse which is why you've gone back to null for me.

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I’ll post something more constructive later today, but I’m still ok with Bujaber.

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Can we talk about how 433 is so manufactured?

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Respect is a two way street. Look in the mirror. Talk to yourself. Would you respect that person?

Roster can you post an opinion one time without waiting for support?

I have? Or did you just miss the point where I voted for you without support?

Btw, I have complete respect for you. Don’t take me saying that something you did is scummy in the wrong way. We are just playing a game.

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I’m sorry if it wasn’t clear, but I am very strongly expressing an opinion there.

Well yeah everyone is under some suspision at some point, but it’s not like I just left it hanging there. I don’t see how you can draw that conclusion from my posts.

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Let me put it this way. You repeatedly post sentences like "BuJaber is scummy but there's not much support there" "oh you voted bujaber okay I can vote him now" "yay, I'm not crazy"

The first two - we were near the deadline, and yes, I had to compromise. That was a good thing as it turned out, but I'm fairly sure we would have gotten a scum with you too. The third one - wouldn't you have doubts about your read if everybody else seemed to think differently? And then when they come out with the same/similar reasoning to you feel a little relieved?

Even just on the previous page, you say you'll post a constructive post later, then as soon as persivul rallies people to vote me you post asking if 433 is scummy.

I prodge, but say I'm still for you. I could easily have left that part out, which would be doing as you describe (you omitted this fact). I'm not asking if 433 is scummy, I'm

saying

it is. Big difference.

There is a pattern of seeking motivation from others to push in a certain direction that you claim you are strongly in favor of. But if it were something you strongly believed in you would not need this support.

I need support for a vote/wagon. I do not need support to point out what I believe to be scummy.

I think I have just shown that my behaviour has been fundamentally different to what you have described. My 'style' (as it exists anyway) is more about cooperation than confrontation, but this has not meant that I do not/have not stated my opinions. I really have.

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how so?

It's not real VCA. You remember FL catching Komodo in our previous game? That was analysing the reasons behind making the votes, what scum might do etc.

In Bujaber's post the first few lines are all fluff. Just saying what happened rather than why.

Spoiler: fluff

Pretty even spread. Mainly RVS votes and early impressions. At this stage people start looking for ways to converge and go for lynches that can be hammered.

Gamma takes the early lead first, as someone not engaged in the game.

Gamma lynch seemingly hits its peak. Now scum will have to try to lynch someone else if they can, or bus their teammate.

Slaxx hops off waiting for a claim. More votes pile on tchill.

They are attempting to look like VCA without being VCA.

Junko / rooster / egix are the scummiest votes.

Essentially: 'Scum are always later on the wagon'

Fair enough, but this is the only reasoning in a whole post which is supposed to be entirely about reasoning. Now if he had just made a post mentioning this point I would've quite liked that, as it shows honesty about what you can determine. But instead there was this whole 'reasoning' which wasn't really reasoning to try to give as much weight as possible behind the push on me. Except the 'VCA' is really just based on this one rule of thumb, and the fact that he townreads the other two possibilities.

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Care to tell me why?

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We probably solve the game if we massclaim. I go last.

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I agree about Flubbernugget first though. The associative were quite high between him and Bujaber, as was pointed out yesterday.

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Flubber should fullclaim now. I have reasons.

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Let’s wait with this till after flubber claims. You can lynch me tomorrow if I’m lying about anything.

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VOTE: Flubbernugget

Let’s move this along a bit, shall we?

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Tick tock goes the clock.

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I don't know that much about balance, but there feels to be way too much town power in this game for that scum team, from what you have both said.

I am not one of the above. I'm debating whether to full claim. There is more information in that.

Pedit: I mean it's probably an informed modifier on another role.

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I jailed flubber last night. Probably blocked scum making kill. Was hoping he'd claim an action so I'd be 100% but no luck.

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Another scum role. That's a way too weak scum team.

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Oh that's odd.

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See I had some doubt because if there's a babysitter it's not 100% that it was from me. There's no way scum kills flubber last night though, so I think we can rule that one out.

Pedit: Yep.

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If it's not flubber our N1 actions might be able to catch them out, so I say we might as well massclaim.

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Ok. I'll leave my N1 jail until we've massclaimed.

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Order doesn't really matter at this stage. If Flubber is telling the truth, we have 4 PRs in this game which is slightly insane. Also possible is that he changed one of the PRs to something else, but IDK why he would do that as 1v1 is then guaranteed.

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Yes we’ll that’s what’s giving me pause. I believe all the claims made (but not necessarily alignment), and we shouldn’t discount that one of the informed roles is scum.

@Persivul, fullclaim please. Obviously if you have actions which could catch out scum don’t say then.

Pedit: Ok, that makes a bit more sense balance wise.

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You claim too Haschel. I’m pretty sure we’re done but you never know.

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Although I think Flubber has basically given up now though.

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and N2?

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oh yeah. Ok so nobody is claiming to have been able to protect last night. I feel confident Flubber is scum, but this is a townside AF setup if 3 scum as persivul said.

Pedit: No, because you're lying about stuff.

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How are you saying there are only 3 prs?

Is just patently false.

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I wasn't talking about the double babysitter thing.

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Well clearly I misunderstood what you were saying then. I don't see how you could be trying as town and say that post, because it made perfect sense for 3 town PR's from what dann said.

I'm not sure whether babysitters add town power or not. It's a difficult question actually. Probably doesn't change the EV, (though disloyal would improve for town), and odd night is pretty weak.

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And having 2 might have been an attempt to sow counterclaims which were same allignment.

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He’s not saying it’s true. If I pulled it off it would be scumplay of the century though .

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Persivul speaks the truth.

I jailed Xwing N1 btw. It’s why my read on him changed. Doesn’t confirm town but makes it more likely.

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Yes and yes. Unless you’re not VT.

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(As in, in you’re PR don’t hammer but claim).

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Gg. We did pretty well I think (D1 and D2 were pure scum hunting pretty much), but d3 was made so simple by the setup.

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Yeah I mean the Flubber jail was from the scumhunting. I think both Dan and Percival mentioned this which caused me to scumhunt him. So I think this setup gets amplified a lot of town is doing well, but would struggle to save a bad town.

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*jail, not scumhunt.

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Also thank you Mewtaph for modding. It was all very smooth.

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Roster obviously I wanted to get you lynched so my motovation was impure but I'd recommend being a bit more forthcoming with your reads and reasons. One thing you can be sure of is people will be quick to tell you you're wrong. Be confident and post your thoughts from the get-go.

It took me a while to get into this game - I was pretty busy so wasn’t really following until the end of day 1. I got a bit sidetracked with the Xwing stuff too, but at least I got to a decent set of reads by the end of D1.