[FEBRUARY CHALLENGE] Voting!

This forum is for discussion of individual Open Setups, including theoretical balance.
implosion
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Post Post #25  (ISO)  » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:58 pm

Inspired by the coalition:
Rivalries9 Town Rivals
3 Mafia Rivals


Rivals are paired; there are 3 town-town pairs and 3 town-mafia pairs (mafia are always paired with town). Pairs are each given a private topic.

On day one, instead of voting normally, rivalry pairs will be announced publicly and the town must vote to exonerate a member of each pair. Each townie gets six votes, one to be used on each pair. If a member of any pair reaches 7 votes, that member is exonerated and no more votes can be placed on members of that pair.

If all six exonerated players are town, a town victory is declared. Otherwise, the game becomes a normal mountainous game going into night one with all twelve players alive.

Optional variant (1): mafia choose who their rivals are in pregame, with the remaining players being paired together randomly.
Optional variant (2): when signing up, players are allowed to select rivals, with scumteams being randomized from among those possible when the game starts.


In coalition, town has a 1/6 chance of winning immediately, and if they fail they have to play a game that would normally have a 30% EV; here that chance is 1/8 and the penalty is a setup that would normally have a 16% EV. In exchange, the town gains a bunch of free information on day one, namely a bunch of pairs that can't be scum together (overall, there would normally be 220 possible scumteams, but with this info 60 of those teams are impossible). I'd expect this is still very significantly scumsided in theory, but I think the existence of topics for hunting/etc and the organized nature of the information town gets to swing things a reasonable amount.

If still considered scumsided, the easiest modification is to add a second chance for exoneration (and possibly cut to 10p to compensate).

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Post Post #26  (ISO)  » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:18 pm

I very much doubt that's scumsided. If a member of a pair flips scum, the other member is conftown, so you have a 1/4 chance of an IC that can't be dealt with after the first lynch. I have a feeling that the observed winrate will be a bit above EV as well.

Also, you might want to put something in the setup about ending it early if a town win is inevitable (two scum lynches whose partners are living and town has 2 confirmed players to scum's remaining one.)
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implosion
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Post Post #27  (ISO)  » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:25 pm

In post 26, Jingle wrote:I very much doubt that's scumsided. If a member of a pair flips scum, the other member is conftown, so you have a 1/4 chance of an IC that can't be dealt with after the first lynch. I have a feeling that the observed winrate will be a bit above EV as well.

Also, you might want to put something in the setup about ending it early if a town win is inevitable (two scum lynches whose partners are living and town has 2 confirmed players to scum's remaining one.)

The setup isn't nightless, and scum have a nightkill starting night 1. So the setup will become 3:8 mountainous, modulo the additional information. Scum will likely kill any conftown.

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Post Post #28  (ISO)  » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:38 pm

House Party

3 mafia goons
11 vanilla townies

Each day before lynching town must vote on an arbitrary sized set of players to be sent to party B instead of party A

If there is no majority it will be randed, however parties included by multiple players grow in odds more than linearly: 1 vote is one chit, 2 votes becomes 3 votes becomes 9 chits

If a scum kill requires the player to cross party lines they will be publicly confirmed as scum
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Post Post #29  (ISO)  » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:47 pm

In post 28, RadiantCowbells wrote:If there is no majority it will be randed, however parties included by multiple players grow in odds more than linearly: 1 vote is one chit, 2 votes becomes 3 votes becomes 9 chits

can you elaborate on this?
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Post Post #30  (ISO)  » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:54 pm

In post 29, northsidegal wrote:
In post 28, RadiantCowbells wrote:If there is no majority it will be randed, however parties included by multiple players grow in odds more than linearly: 1 vote is one chit, 2 votes becomes 3 votes becomes 9 chits

can you elaborate on this?


Ok

So say 7 players alive

3 voting one set
2 voting another
And 1 voting 2 more

There would be a random from 1-15
1-9 first set
10-13 second set
14 third 15 fourth
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Post Post #31  (ISO)  » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:57 pm

ah, so what matters is the number of players voting the party, not the number of people in the party. gotcha. still not sure i entirely understand, but the setup is interesting!
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Post Post #32  (ISO)  » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:11 pm

Every NK gives you a smaller Poe pool basically
If you're Macho and someone tries to rolestop you, you never realise you're being targeted for a kill, so your machismo never gets challenged

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Post Post #33  (ISO)  » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:18 pm

i think a major strength for town is the ability to sequester away a few locktown. that messes up scum's normal nightkills which usually tends to raise in-practice EV
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Post Post #34  (ISO)  » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:20 pm

In post 27, implosion wrote:
In post 26, Jingle wrote:I very much doubt that's scumsided. If a member of a pair flips scum, the other member is conftown, so you have a 1/4 chance of an IC that can't be dealt with after the first lynch. I have a feeling that the observed winrate will be a bit above EV as well.

Also, you might want to put something in the setup about ending it early if a town win is inevitable (two scum lynches whose partners are living and town has 2 confirmed players to scum's remaining one.)

The setup isn't nightless, and scum have a nightkill starting night 1. So the setup will become 3:8 mountainous, modulo the additional information. Scum will likely kill any conftown.


Oh. :oops: I misunderstood then.

RadiantCowbells wrote:Each day before lynching town must vote on an arbitrary sized set of players to be sent to party B instead of party A


Is the set made public? Like, I get that if it's a majority it's obvious, but do you tell the players what the randomly chosen group is if no majority is reached?
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Post Post #35  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:29 am

RC so your setup is:

Every Day, town will vote for a group of players into a Party. Voted players form a party, and the others form a different party. If there is no majority vote, this will go by modified plurality voting: a party voted by X players will have a relative X^2 chance of being selected. Each party lasts for only one Day/Night cycle, and for the next cycle players vote for new parties.

Town will lynch a player every Day.

Finally, if a scum from one party kills someone in the other party, the killing scum will be revealed.

Is this the setup?
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Post Post #36  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:41 am

Also, here's a setup:

The Councillors2 Mafia Goon
1 Mafia Traitor Councillor
8 Vanilla Townies
3 Town Councillors

The traitor and Goons know each other, but don't share a PT. If both goons die, the traitor inherits the Nightkill.

The councillors together form the Council. They all share a PT. Furthermore, they all control an extra vote listed on the VC as "Council", controlled by majority vote in the Council PT.

Scum must kill all townies to win, not just obtain majority. 1 Goon vs 1 Town Councillor is a town win because the goon has only one vote but the Councillor has two votes: their own, and the Council vote which is in full control of the town councillor.


Thoughts?
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Post Post #37  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:52 am

In post 34, Jingle wrote:
In post 27, implosion wrote:
In post 26, Jingle wrote:I very much doubt that's scumsided. If a member of a pair flips scum, the other member is conftown, so you have a 1/4 chance of an IC that can't be dealt with after the first lynch. I have a feeling that the observed winrate will be a bit above EV as well.

Also, you might want to put something in the setup about ending it early if a town win is inevitable (two scum lynches whose partners are living and town has 2 confirmed players to scum's remaining one.)

The setup isn't nightless, and scum have a nightkill starting night 1. So the setup will become 3:8 mountainous, modulo the additional information. Scum will likely kill any conftown.


Oh. :oops: I misunderstood then.

RadiantCowbells wrote:Each day before lynching town must vote on an arbitrary sized set of players to be sent to party B instead of party A


Is the set made public? Like, I get that if it's a majority it's obvious, but do you tell the players what the randomly chosen group is if no majority is reached?


Yes it's public

And yes BNL
Last edited by RadiantCowbells on Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #38  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:54 am

In post 36, BulletNLynchproof wrote:Also, here's a setup:

The Councillors2 Mafia Goon
1 Mafia Traitor Councillor
8 Vanilla Townies
3 Town Councillors

The traitor and Goons know each other, but don't share a PT. If both goons die, the traitor inherits the Nightkill.

The councillors together form the Council. They all share a PT. Furthermore, they all control an extra vote listed on the VC as "Council", controlled by majority vote in the Council PT.

Scum must kill all townies to win, not just obtain majority. 1 Goon vs 1 Town Councillor is a town win because the goon has only one vote but the Councillor has two votes: their own, and the Council vote which is in full control of the town councillor.


Thoughts?

Let me check the probabilities...
Day 1 - 1/4 chance of lynching Mafia in the Council.
1/5 chance of lynching Mafia outside the Council.
Best strategy is probably lynching outside the Council if the Council seems to be equally scummy(or towny) and to lynch inside the Council if not. If the Council is not distinguishable well then Mafia probably has to use their Nightkill on the Council sooner or later - which only helps town.
Sounds good!
Edit: Actually it is probably best for the (Town) Council to NOT claim day 1. This ensures if the town lynches off council that the Mafia does not know who is on the council without help from the traitor - and that can be spotted. Additionally lynching off the council has to be done anyways!

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Post Post #39  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:54 pm

Guidance4 Mafia Goons (compulsive NK)
8 Town Co-Jailkeeper (compulsive)

Before the game starts the mod will randomly split the players into pairs in a way that satisfies the following conditions:
- Mafia cannot be paired with other mafia
- Each player must be paired with exactly one other player.

This is done twice, first time to assign each player's guide, and the second time to assign each player's guidee. So each player will dictate the targets of another player and have a player who will dictate their own targets. The guide/guidee may or may not be the same person.

In each player's role PM they will be told who their guidee is, but not who is guiding their own actions.

A guide chooses a target for their guidee's night action. This includes both the town's jailkeeping ability and the mafia's factional kill (if the goon being guided is the one performing the kill).

Choosing a target for your guidee is optional. If any action is attempted without being guided by another player the action will fail.

Players whose action has failed either through jailkeeping or by having no guide are not told that their action has failed.

The act of choosing a target for your guidee is never blocked.

Mafia have daytalk.


The entire town can choose to never dictate targets for their guidees in which case the game effectively becomes nightless.
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Post Post #40  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:04 pm

Hmm... What happens when a person is lynched? Does the ring shrink or is that person's guidee vanilla?

And how is the pairing determined? Is it forced to be one circle or can two separate loops form?
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Post Post #41  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:29 pm

In post 40, Jingle wrote:Hmm... What happens when a person is lynched? Does the ring shrink or is that person's guidee vanilla?

And how is the pairing determined? Is it forced to be one circle or can two separate loops form?


The pairings only occur once pre-game. So if someone is lynched their guidee becomes vanilla. They won't know though because that information wouldn't be revealed in the flip. It is possible therefore for scum to effectively have no nightkill depending on who dies when. Balance wise I think it shouldn't be a big deal given the high number of scum. If I come up with a more elegant approach I'll change this though.

I'm not sure I understand the 2nd question. But the guide pairing is independent from the guidee pairing. A player could have two different players or the same player. In other words player A guides player B. Player B may guide player A or may guide player C. You just can't have:
-mafia guiding mafia
-one player guiding two players
-two players guiding the same player

I'm sure someone smarter than me has a better way of randomizing it but the easiest way I came up with is to randomize the playerlist normally, then number them 1-12, where players 1-4 are scum and then you pair 1 with 12, 2 with 11 etc. That's one pairing. Then randomize just the townies (no. 5-12), re-number them, and pair the whole list again the same way.
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Post Post #42  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:33 pm

In post 23, Jingle wrote:I kinda prefer the WIFOM of letting scum choose the lovers, but it's probably a little bit scum siding. True love (And I think your numbers by extrapolation, but I'm not checking atm) is exactly 50% EV, so you might need to add something to town to make up for it/further distinguish the setup.

Been thinking about this

Romeo, Romeo (Romeo, Romeo, Romeo, Mercutio)3 goons
8 vts
1 Mercutio

Nightless.
Pre-game, Mafia put all players in lover pairs, which are then announced at the start of D1.
Mafia win by achieving parity
When Mercutio dies, he may un-pair two other lovers. Once per game, any time before this happens, scum may guess Mercutio’s identity in their PT, and if they guess correctly he becomes a vt.
Last edited by Irrelephant11 on Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Post #43  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:54 pm

In post 41, BuJaber wrote:
In post 40, Jingle wrote:Hmm... What happens when a person is lynched? Does the ring shrink or is that person's guidee vanilla?

And how is the pairing determined? Is it forced to be one circle or can two separate loops form?


The pairings only occur once pre-game. So if someone is lynched their guidee becomes vanilla. They won't know though because that information wouldn't be revealed in the flip. It is possible therefore for scum to effectively have no nightkill depending on who dies when. Balance wise I think it shouldn't be a big deal given the high number of scum. If I come up with a more elegant approach I'll change this though.

I'm not sure I understand the 2nd question. But the guide pairing is independent from the guidee pairing. A player could have two different players or the same player. In other words player A guides player B. Player B may guide player A or may guide player C. You just can't have:
-mafia guiding mafia
-one player guiding two players
-two players guiding the same player

I'm sure someone smarter than me has a better way of randomizing it but the easiest way I came up with is to randomize the playerlist normally, then number them 1-12, where players 1-4 are scum and then you pair 1 with 12, 2 with 11 etc. That's one pairing. Then randomize just the townies (no. 5-12), re-number them, and pair the whole list again the same way.


First, you only have to pair once. If Player A guides Player B, Player B is guided by player A. Second, you already answered the question by saying the same person could be guide and guidee of another player, but my question was whether you were forcing a complete loop, such that if you travel from guide to guidee from one player you go through every player before reaching your starting point.

I feel like massclaiming guidee's D1 and then never targetting is probably the highest EV for the setup because it's mountainous nightless with a bunch of impossible pairs. I think you should consider leaving the option of mafia pairing as a chance so that you can't confirm town with a scumlynch.
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Post Post #44  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:28 pm

In post 43, Jingle wrote:First, you only have to pair once. If Player A guides Player B, Player B is guided by player A.


If you only paired once wouldn't that guarantee that all guidance is mutual? If player A guides player B I want there to be a chance that player B guides plyer A or someone else. So the pairing is only one way, but you do it twice to get both guide and guidee assigned.
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Post Post #45  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:45 pm

Say I have 6 players, A B C D E F G.

A Guides B
B Guides E
C Guides A
D Guides F
E Guides C
F Guides D

I don't have to randomize again because the Guidee's are controlled by who is guiding them. C, for example, is guided by E, so C is Guidee to E. Also, you can fully randomize the setup with 2 list randomizations.

First randomization is numbered 1-12. 1-4 are scum. Second randomization #1 is removed from the list. The first four town names are guided by 1-4. The other seven names are assigned in order, but if a player would be assigned to themselves they are instead assigned to the next person in line. Player one is guided by the last person out. This gives a slightly > chance for a player to be assigned the player after them in the list, but not enough of one to be significant and the list wouldn't be published to abuse anyway.
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Post Post #46  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:12 pm

Romeo, Romeo, Romeo, Romeo Jeff looks balanced btw, and I'd definitely like to see it played. Perhaps during the marathons. ;)
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Jingle
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Post Post #47  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:32 pm

Giving RC's some thought I think it's probably scumsided. The mechanic feels ~tracker. Similarly to a tracker, the results aren't conclusive for innocents until you've lynched all but one scum. There is very little potential for early guilties. There is no conftown power role. There IS a high potential for late game revelations that turn the early information into useful info.

Seems like it'd be crazy complicated to calculate EV though.
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Post Post #48  (ISO)  » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:47 am

The Wilderness

14 players:
1 Mafia Head
2 Mafia Goons
1 Town Headhunter
8 Vanilla Townies


  • There is no lynch during the day phase, instead this game features The Wilderness.
    • All players may discuss and vote during the day phase.
    • Once all votes have been placed, all players who were voted for are moved into The Wilderness, a Private Topic where all members may talk amongst themselves, for the night.
    • There are various things players may do in The Wilderness
      • Players may talk amongst themselves as much as they please.
      • If there is a unanimous vote on a player in the Wilderness (excluding the player being voted), that player is lynched at the end of the night phase.
      • All players within The Wilderness are participating in a game of "Ready, Aim, Fire!" that resolves upon the end of the night phase. They must privately submit one of the following actions:
        • Shoot PLAYER - Assuming the player is not protected or shoots themselves, the player dies.
        • Shoot SELF - If any amount of players shoot you, they die. If no one shoots you, you die.
        • Shoot SKY - Do nothing.
        • Protect PLAYER - If that player is shot by anyone excluding themselves, you will die instead.
          • If two players protect each other, both protection fails.
      • A lynched player does not participate in the game of "Ready, Aim, Fire!" Any actions targeting them will be considered invalid and changed to Shoot SKY.
      • Any shot player is killed and flips upon the start of the day phase.
      • The Wilderness is locked and is not to be used again. A new one is made for each night.
  • The Headhunter is an alternate win condition for the Town.
    • At any time, when able, the Headhunter may publicly guess the identity of the Mafia Head. If he is correct, town immediately win.
    • At any time, when able, the Mafia Head may publicly guess the identity of the Headhunter If he is correct, the Headhunter dies, and the Mafia Head becomes Deathproof.
      • Once Deathproof, the Mafia Head may choose to "No Vote" during the day. He may still be voted into The Wilderness.
      • Once Deathproof, the Mafia win condition becomes White Flag.
      • Once Deathproof, Mafia gain an additional nightkill during the next possible night. This only lasts for that night.
    • If the Headhunter shoots the Mafia Head in the The Wilderness, town immediately win.
    • Once a guess is made, the other Role may not guess.
    • If the guess is incorrect, the Mod responds to the guess with a simple "Incorrect," and the game continues.
  • During the night, Mafia may select someone who is NOT in The Wilderness to die. Players within The Wilderness may not be targeted with the Mafia's nightkill.
  • If going into the night phase, all remaining town players are in The Wilderness, the game ends in a Mafia victory.
  • Town win if all Mafia are eliminated or one of the other Town win conditions are met.
  • Mafia win if they equal or exceed the number of remaining Town going into the dayphase or one of the other Town win conditions are met


Probably scumsided but maybe it'd be fun anyway?

I'd be curious at what playercount it is mathematically optimal for both Roles to randomly guess.

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Post Post #49  (ISO)  » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:02 am

In post 48, BBmolla wrote:If there is a unanimous vote on a player in the Wilderness (excluding the player being voted), that player is lynched at the end of the night phase.

That means if the Town puts two people into the Wilderness they vote each other and both get lynched, correct?

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