Newbie 1912 [GAME COMPLETE]

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Post Post #613  (isolation #0)  » Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:10 am

Never fear, the replacement is here!

Only face I recognize is Thespio so this should be fun.

I'll probably get started with reading in the next 3-4 hours, the joy of night shift.

If my slots being wagoned could I ask for an unvote while I catch up?

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Post Post #616  (isolation #1)  » Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:08 am

Just a coincidence. I'm gonna have to put that in my signature.

Heading home now, prepare for walls.

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Post Post #619  (isolation #2)  » Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:52 am

In post 19, Elements wrote:
In post 18, Loopdan wrote:Elements, what is the purpose of this vote change?

There wan't any real purpose other than to spark some form of discussion, which it now appears to have done

Fine with this, I have a similar approach to RVS but a majority of slots hadn't checked in. Give them time to get going to accomplish what this was really meant to do.

In post 22, muh316 wrote:
In post 12, Loopdan wrote:---> Don't vote for yourself. There are very rare occasions where this is helpful in non-newbie games, but usually only for scum, so if you do it here you will certainly get scumread for it.


VOTE: Muh316 Don't tell me what to do or what not to do.


Open wolfing is fun eh?

In post 44, Loopdan wrote:
In post 42, Skellen wrote:It's basically fake pressure to look pro town considering muh can and probably will just unvote himself eventually.


What do you mean by fake pressure? Like is that I don't really want to lynch him but I'm voting him to make him think I am trying to lynch him?


Weird bit of wifom here, I think Skellen was pretty straightforward when she said the vote doesn't accomplish anything.

That said Skellens questioning is pretty townie to this point. At the very least it's an attempt to solve that is coming a bit earlier than I would think scum would be willing to for obvious reasons. Early townlean there.

I'm thinking Muh/Loop have some....interesting interactions but only 2 and a half pages deep so I'll see if it develops.

In post 57, Thespio wrote:I think this is a tvt fight

What gave you that impression and why are you avoiding involvement there?
In post 69, Thespio wrote:To make it clear d1 I tend to lean more towards policy, I won’t push anything because we have so much time but since this is a newbie game I want everyone to understand if it is a NL or me I would prefer you kill me. A kill d1 should prepare town to win.


Also bad. This wasn't the case in the newbie game we played, multiple slots we're inactive but you were aggressive with your pushes on active slots so I'm kind of side eyeing at this.

The NL bit seems lamist but yes a day 1 no lynch is arguably anti town in this set of setups.

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Post Post #620  (isolation #3)  » Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:53 am

I realize I will probably be breaking up the flow of conversation, you guys can ignore me till I'm up to snuff.

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Post Post #621  (isolation #4)  » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:13 am

In post 76, Loopdan wrote:
In post 74, Elements wrote:
In post 69, Thespio wrote:if it is a NL or me I would prefer you kill me.

please don't say this. the first game of forum mafia i played someone said this. i came back half a day later to 9 pages of pointless discussion that basically destroyed the game


Thespio is correct that it's better to lynch than NL day1. But I don't like how he brought it up. It was out of the blue and looks like an attempt to declare his own towniness.

Looks like we had the same impression here.

In post 85, Skellen wrote:
In post 64, Elements wrote:i don't see why this is important in any way. the vote happened on the first page of the game after muh voted themselves to spite loopdan. i can't see how there could be any reason for loopdan to vote them other then something along the lines of "well screw you too"


I would agree with this if he wouldn't have implied there is more to it with the "Later" in #29. Meanwhile he said it is as you said. Eeerrhh why was he even doing it so ominously in first place then.

Kind of pedantic, hopefully this doesn't keep up.

In post 96, Skellen wrote:Finally got some time to spare.

In post 86, Thespio wrote:How do you read Elements and I?


It's difficult to read Elements at the moment, at least for me, so I can't really see how you are leaning more towards town in his case. Comments here and there some things, but not enough to classify him on town/scum side. Normally I would think it's slightly scummy (I miss a little bit the initiative), however this early there isn't much juicy stuff to work with anyway.

As for you I am struggling with you a little bit. I found your role in the exchange between me and loopdan slightly interesting, since you were kind of "moderating" between us. It would be consistent with your opinion that two townies went against each other instead of the using the moment to team up against a side, which is a positive thing. Of course a scum-you would have known better and could as well used that moment to get in a postive standing with two active townies. By feeling I am rather leaning towards the former. I was a bit wary when you put all the active players on the town side while I wouldn't even find it possible to say much about the others, as you can see in my comment about Elements, so that only the inactives are left for scum. A bit a too certain statement for this early. Leaning slightly towards town, but here and there are some things that remind me to keep an eye on you.


Some meat. Skellen is oozing town at this point. When I look at new players (experience elsewhere or otherwise) I look for effort, attention to detail, motivation (that's general in mafia but I digress). This goes a bit beyond the surface, moreso with the Thespio read, on why X slot is doing what they are doing. Instead of focusing on the fact that it happened. I like that.

I also noticed when articulate newbies roll town they have a tendency to over explain reads to get as much of their thought process out as possible. I know this was the case when I started here.

In post 104, Elements wrote:
In post 102, muh316 wrote:Elements, you haven't given us any TR's or strong opinions on anyone. It seems like lurking to me.

I take while to form reads, and I don't give them as often as other people in the few games I've played. So far this game the only read I've rlly got is that I don't think you and loop are both mafia. Everyone else is pretty much null at this point


This was the first connection I put together, why couldn't these two be scum together?
In post 111, PvtUrist wrote:Reads so far;

{Urist} conf-town
{} strong-town
{Elements, Loopdan, Skellen} null-town
{Munchmellow, muh316, Spiral, MissDeadbeat} null
{Thespio} null-scum

Unprompted readslist without really interacting with anyone...meh not liking this.
In post 112, PvtUrist wrote:My reads are lame so here's a few questions;

@Skellen ignoring the 2 inactive players, who do you feel to be the scummiest/towniest right now? How different do you feel with forum Mafia vs IRL?

@all reads on Thespio? Namely his page 2/3 fluff and scum slip.

It would certainly be convenient if the lurking scums inactive players decided to show up.


Couple things, why are all of your posts revolving around Thespio particularly?

Then, you're calling Thespio scum while immediately contradicting that by pleading to the "inactive scum" to post. Effectively agreeing with your only scumread at this point? I'm not following, got my eyes on you.

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Post Post #623  (isolation #5)  » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:25 am

In post 136, PvtUrist wrote:Read update;

{Urist} conf town
{Skellen, Loopdan} lean town
{Elements} null town
{Enter, MissDeadbeat, Munchmellow, muh316} null
{Thespio} null scum

Skellen; Loopdan explains how I feel about him/her well in

Loopdan; ISO reads town

Elements; felt town from first read, but I guess there wasn't as much content in his posts than I previously thought they did.

Enter; feeling null, interested in where he reads Loopdan as red.

MDb/Munch; would appreciate a few more posts from either of them.

muh316; null right now

Thespio; isn't talking about girls=scum safely parks vote on inactive player rather than engaging with the more active players

On page 7 pvturist sticks out again, seems like the only content he's putting out is the occasional readslist and even those clash. The page + readslist seems more like an amalgamation of what other slots think is town or scum. For example loop and Skellen moving up to townreads with most of their posts being about their frustration with the game pace.

Enter replacing in looks like it's going to be good, getting into his case I have some thoughts on it when I pick this back up but I like his reads on the interactions with Loop and Thespio. Minor things I want to pick at though.

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Post Post #625  (isolation #6)  » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:29 am

Is it? Lynching myself probably wouldn't be good for me then, pretend I didn't scumlean my slot while I check.

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Post Post #627  (isolation #7)  » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:31 am

I read pidot/spiral somewhere and assumed these were the replaced slots but you're right, replacement was for Urist.

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Post Post #628  (isolation #8)  » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:32 am

Meh, I probably would have lynched him.

I'm just getting into Enters case on you and Loop, don't bias me Thespio.

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Post Post #706  (isolation #9)  » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:28 pm

Oh this is still going on. Well I'm still early into the argument. Enter why didn't Muh sheeping you so early set off any alarms? Quick thoughts I liked the Loop/Thespio angle but I like some of Thespio's posts dealing with enter specifically that I think leans more towards his town meta.

Enter you're conf biased like crazy. Having been on both ends of death tunnels it's a slippery slope right? Viewing the game through the lens that everything Loop does or says is scummy doesn't really help any other slot.

Magik what page did you replace in on?
Loop and Enter are never scum together. Muh and Loop could still be scum theater from what I've seen. At the very least there is 1 scum between the two I'll put money on it.

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Post Post #710  (isolation #10)  » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:35 pm

In post 707, Enter wrote:muh didn't sheep me, he had his own reasons for voting.


No...no he didn't. His vote was a result of your case and how aggressively you came into the game against Loop.

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Post Post #714  (isolation #11)  » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:53 pm

In post 158, muh316 wrote:
In post 112, PvtUrist wrote:@all reads on Thespio? Namely his page 2/3 fluff and #84 scum slip.

I don't see it as a scum slip. It just looks like you're reaching too hard on that one.

In post 137, Munchmellow wrote:I think that town doesn't have to go there to be townie, so I kind of see scum-agenda in this. And what does that even mean - that he would selfhammer if he would be L-1 on deadline and no one else to hammer?

I too find the sacrificial hero of the town story pretty annoying. But in my experience it's usually a town player that says it because if scum would say this and not follow through, that would be a clear scum-tell.

@Thespio, why haven't you removed your vote on MDB? That vote/pressure is not going anywhere.

Whenever a player replaces in, it's always bad news for scum because that player can approach the game from a different perspective than the current players. I think that we didn't really take a look at Loopdan because he was driving the game in the beginning. But Enter's recent analysis is pretty spot on.
VOTE: Loopdan


So before this vote Muh's last bit of content regarding Loop was the "double bussing" comment in response to Thespio calling Skellen/Loop TvT.

The bad news for scum line seems informed which is what made me think muh/Loop is still possible but not probable I guess looking at the current game state.

It's an opportunistic vote and from a scum perspective it's well timed. It's early in Enter vs Loop and isn't heated yet. But it only took 1 post to completely flip how the game shod be viewed in Muh's mind?

Now that I think about it that's more of a reason for this to just be Town!Enter. I believe there is 1 between Loop and Muh. Loop / Enter goes beyond scum theater and rarely ever would they be together. So if Muh is the scum here he's spewing Enter town with the pocket attempt (looks like it worked at any rate).

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Post Post #716  (isolation #12)  » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:59 pm

I don't know what Elements stance is early game so I have nothing to compare it to. A scum flip on one clears the other as town though...I think.

Link me how the Elements wagon started then I'll iso him and get back to you on it.

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Post Post #735  (isolation #13)  » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:35 am

In post 226, Enter wrote:7. MissDeadbeat/MagikHorse: Actually nothing this game. Loopdan was awful quick to get his vote off MissDeadbeat. This signals to me that she's the most likely here to be scum. In addition, he took full responsibility for his vote on her. My suspicion is that he saw Thespio vote her, thought to himself "Oh crap better bus her, it's maybe over for her" and then swapped to PvtUrist once he saw a way out.


Are you maintaining this line of thought / scumread on Horse's slot? I could see this kind of read being relevant with a new player but not against the IC. Why would one off vote from Thespio be enough to convince Scum!Loop their partner is going down?

It's flawed in context as well since most of the feedback was that Thespio was scummy for this policy vote. The wagon wasn't going to go anywhere. This is what I mean with the lens.

I understand that these were hypothetical teams but this was your most solid pick for Loops partner and it doesn't hold up at all.

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Post Post #736  (isolation #14)  » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:36 am

I feel like I'm moving at a snail's pace but the walls are a lot to get through and whenever I finish a page I find myself backtracking to read through again, bear with me.

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Post Post #738  (isolation #15)  » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:42 am

In post 229, Skellen wrote:I agree that Loopdan/PvtUrist is not possible and no, I can definitely rule Loopdan out as townread at the moment as I am not fond of his behaviour after you started your attack. I am just not sure yet if he ends up as neutral or scum for me. Please wait a little bit for my read on Loopdan, I was orginally planning to wait for an improved defence of him, but since I am most likely not here tomorrow and I am getting frustrated with his stalling, which looks like playing on time until it hits one of the other two, I am rereading everything at the moment (including your guys exchange *shiver*).


Can I get a little bit about what you disliked in Loopdans responses? I see the case about AtE being thrown around in the more recent posts. Mostly used to scumread a slot but I would argue it's more commonly attributed to town frustration.

I was going to comment that I saw Thespio threaten to self hammer somewhere and this is the same kind of case, emotions just run high.

Don't ever do this btw I 100% would have hammered Thespio if I was here from the start.

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Post Post #739  (isolation #16)  » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:43 am

Who all has Loop tried to get a wagon on?

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Post Post #740  (isolation #17)  » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:51 am

So another trend I'm noticing is the early agreeability with enters.... arrival. What I mean is that there was 0 resistance to Enters case and in fact every townread on Loop flipped to scum on him.

Which could be Enter being charismatic but I feel like there's more going on there. Probably low activity or new scum. Clashing with Enter here wod be attention scum doesn't want and in the case of a new slot rolling scum it is a lot easier for them to simply appease prominent voices in the town.

Just my take.

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Post Post #741  (isolation #18)  » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:52 am

Disregard my question skellen, you outlined it well a couple posts later.

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Post Post #744  (isolation #19)  » Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:04 am

Page 11 I find myself agreeing with Loop though it feels like he isn't looking big picture. The Why is generally more telling than the what in these games.

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Post Post #753  (isolation #20)  » Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:05 am

In post 751, Elements wrote:at the moment i so either you or me being lynched so here's me flipping in comparison:
I flip scum: Loop is town
I flip town: ...


I feel things like this are why Elements is a wagon right now...

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Post Post #754  (isolation #21)  » Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:07 am

I'm on 13-14, I'm not going to do the quote wall catchup I think I'm just going to read through with general thoughts on what sticks out for the sake of time/discussion.

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Post Post #756  (isolation #22)  » Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:35 am

No I mean the statement "If I flip Scum" should never come from your perspective if you're town. Since you know the outcome of your flip.

Statements like that are immediate red flags.

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Post Post #765  (isolation #23)  » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:25 am

Ok so I'm on page 20, yes elements the IF I'm scum posts are still bad in any context. Loopdans question included. However I think he's town and I think it makes Thespio town if Loop is? Though I'm less sure on the Thespio part. This could change with the later posts and I would have to check back in with the latest vote counts but here goes.

I actually think Loopdans responses were reasonable, I don't know what the tone was when Enter joined the game but from his first few posts I assumed that read was going to persist and going forward all of his reads have revolved around the Loop scum angle.

Loop is correct in saying that Enters case was matter-of-fact from the start, I got the same. That's a pretty judgement and naturally you trust your judgement more than any other slot, understandable. However the later questions were indeed loaded or asked in a way that wasn't intended to sort, if that makes sense. Loop still obliged for the most part and honestly I don't blame him for trying to step back from it.

Now I'm phone posting so I probably won't go back to add quotes just yet. Around the 18-20 page mark Loop and Enter reignited their passionate...eh..quarrel? And Loop made some observations I agree with regarding the game state, specifically about scum involvement if Enter v Loop is TvT. This showed to me he is still trying to consider the game outside of himself and Enter. Also I would agree, at this point I townread both slots and the lack of slots attempting to pivot away from loop/enter points to inactive or uninvolved slots. Magik did try to get Enter to re evaluate which I really liked but no other slots outside of that stuck out to me.

Around this time I took notice of the wagons (Loop and Thespio) sitting at 4 and 3 votes respectively and then Loopdan voted Enter...Loopdan voted Enter. So this doesn't make sense to me as scum since Loop flipping red confirms Enter, scums play here has to be A.) To create wifom or B.) Setup a mislynch which he can't do voting Enter and the AtE doesn't do much in the way of wifom since it only centers on himself. Fmpov scum probably gets their partner onto the counterwagon there and lolhammers. The scum side of this is that if Loop is scum and his partner is already on Thespio's wagon then they won't be able to get the votes to lolhammer making Loops pool of possible partners (Elements, munch, pvturist). Fmpov only elements or munch but you get my point.

That's all the inactive slots, so even if you assume Scum!Loop is true his point about scum being in the inactive slots is true. All of the slots voting Thespio at this point.

This was a lot more to the point in my head but I post in a conscious stream as I'm thinking if that makes sense.

The Implications here are that regardless of Loops alignment there is 1 scum within elements or munch. I would throw Muh into that mix for independent reasons, I'm not sure if Muh/Elements or muh/Munch makes a lot of sense though. And if Loop is town I doubt Thespio is scum as the counterwagon with that line of thinking in mind.

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Post Post #766  (isolation #24)  » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:28 am

Sorry about the size, it's a lot to digest but I'm trying to condense 20 pages of content into something semi concise.

We are under 2 days till deadline and should be the time town is consolidating on a lynch.

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Post Post #776  (isolation #25)  » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:51 pm

From what I've read up to I think you're pretty off base and I still have 10 or so pages till I'm into the current game so I'd like to hold off on intent.

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Post Post #784  (isolation #26)  » Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:22 pm

In post 780, Loopdan wrote:
In post 776, RCEnigma wrote:From what I've read up to I think you're pretty off base and I still have 10 or so pages till I'm into the current game so I'd like to hold off on intent.


Here's a helpful synopsis of the game when you get caught up: Muh and/or Elements are scum.


I've narrowed down 1 scum between Elements/Munchmellow. I can also see muh as scum so the AND part is possible.

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Post Post #838  (isolation #27)  » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:02 am

The experience argument isn't inherently true since it's only an indication of some experience. However they are bound to their role as a guide to new slots so I get why that line of thinking can come in. I generally make it a point to target the IC and sort that slot in the beginning of the game because in the newbie setting, what happens to the IC can be very telling and how slots interact with the IC can be very telling.

It's not the case now because the gamestate revolves around you and the IC.

I'll post my intent to hammer Elements by deadline however Enter, if you truly townread Elements I would like you to evaluate MunchMellow and Muh without the Loopdan Scum element.

Based on the voting patterns I've already pointed out there is 1 scum between Elements and MunchMellow. If you think Elements is town take that into consideration if you reread.

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Post Post #840  (isolation #28)  » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:05 am

I would prefer a lynch on muh personally, I think town is in a bad spot and scum are content with allowing the split to continue as is with fingers pointed across both sides. Loopdan reading Enter as town and pointing in the opposite direction doesn't fit that scum narrative at all.

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Post Post #844  (isolation #29)  » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:13 am

From what I've read Loopdan stops at multiple points to evaluate if your continued push comes from scum or town. But for the sake of argument let's say he didn't evaluate this on his own and only came to that conclusion because of Magik.

Is it then more likely a team of Magik/Loop openly discuss changing their tune on the slot pushing them the hardest? Keep in mind scum have daychat in this setup. I think if the goal is to appease you maybe but it doesn't look like either slot is pandering to you.

Especially in the case of Magik who has tried to get you back on the logical track as opposed to the emotional read being pressed.

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Post Post #849  (isolation #30)  » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:25 am

In post 843, Enter wrote:@RCE would you agree that it seems strange for the loopdan wagon to survive for so long without being hammered if loopdan wasn't scum, regardless of constantly pressure to do so? Even if you put both scum players as having already been on the wagon, we've had more than 6 people vote him, so we've had enough for scum to hammer if it wasn't his buddy.


Not really, there's actually a lot to unpack there and would probably take multiple posts to go through the scenarios. The overarching point is hesitation.

The way the game is now it's either you or loop. I would argue if Loop is town here Scum have taken your side in the argument so a townflip on Loop is more damning to them than it is to you. I say that because even what looks to be Dan's side (Magik....maybe skellen?) Have all townread you as well. So it wouldn't be hard to explain off if you end up being wrong.

So let's play devil's advocate: Loop is scum and the Lynch on him goes through flipping red. Enter is confirmed as town and likely the nightkill, I can't know what happens in the night but we'll say it's successful.

The logical thing is to then work through the nonvoters leaving a pool of muh, elements, munch as untouchable day 2 which is unfortunate as fmpov 1 of the 3 is scum regardless of Loops alignment with maybe Thespio as an outlier.

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Post Post #850  (isolation #31)  » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:27 am

In post 848, Enter wrote:
Keep in mind scum have daychat in this setup.


I somehow missed this. This changes my reads a bit, I think, but not too much. I'll think about it over the game night. It does make it look extra strange loopdan perking up and trying again as soon as MDb got replaced.



Again i wasn't looking at timestamps when reading through and I don't recall what slot you replaced but if this thinking can be applied to you replacing in as well since you know your alignment feel free to do so.

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Post Post #854  (isolation #32)  » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:37 am

Yes, conversely if Loop flips town voters are doing the buddying. Buddying you, get what I mean?

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Post Post #857  (isolation #33)  » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:42 am

In post 384, Loopdan wrote:
In post 368, Thespio wrote:
In post 366, Loopdan wrote:@Magik, you wanna see what too scummy to be scum looks like? The post below.

In post 365, Thespio wrote:UNVOTE: I want to see how Loopdan plays this out, i feel like however he flips Enter will be the opposite.


I dont understand, do you think he is town tunneling you? You are still my pick for today I just dont want anything to stop this clash, i want to see it to its end so D2 regardless of what happens I know what you both think. I do believe one of you is scum, i understand he did basically tunnel you, he did it even when confronting me. You arent out of the fire yet. But your survivalism does seem town now that you are actually trying.


I'm think there's a chance he is town-tunneling me, but I think there's a greater chance he's just scum. Enter has not shown equivocation or doubt or puzzlement about anything. That doesn't read as town.

The start of Loops progression, showing he's evaluating possibilities.

In post 461, Loopdan wrote:Yeah I've slowly come to the realization that Enter is likely town here. What Magik just said is pretty much reading my mind.

Here is where Loop comes around to his townread on enter. is Magiks attempt to get Enter to back down and split his evaluations into Town!Loopdan and Scum!Loopdan. I didn't get the impression he was directing anything at Loopdan or telling him his read on Enter was wrong in any way.

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Post Post #861  (isolation #34)  » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:56 am

In post 856, Enter wrote:
In post 854, RCEnigma wrote:Yes, conversely if Loop flips town voters are doing the buddying. Buddying you, get what I mean?


I follow and agree. Which is a big reason that, if both are town, loop is a better flip.

I disagree, just because most slots townread you doesn't eliminate the possibility that you're scum here and Loopdan was correct when he linked your hard tunnel strat.

Also, Elements Lynch gives just as much information.

So from our perspective if Loop is lynched and flips red you are pretty much cleared but likely die in the night so there goes that advantage. I'd also argue that Muh could very much be partners with Loop based on early interactions and wagon interactions, loops pushes on Muh have never come to fruition so Scum!Loop could safely echo that as his preferred Lynch to distance. That still leaves too many slots unresolved.

Lynching Elements eliminates more scum possibilities imo: a red flip is ideal, in that case maybe Thespio dies, maybe enter, more likely someone on the wagon though, it's too much wifom to speculate. Elements flipping red semi clears loop as the counterwagon but it largely points to a low activity scumteam or at least a scumteam without a strong voice in the town. Munch, muh, skellen, Thespio, myself from other perspectives. I would even eliminate Munch from that pool as I don't think both Munch and Scum!Elements would vote together the way they have and not achieve a Lynch by this point.

On a green Elements flip MunchMellow is caught scum. The partner in that case is a bit more ambiguous but I feel like associations wouldn't be hard to piece together by the time Munch flips red.

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Post Post #864  (isolation #35)  » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:01 am

In post 858, Enter wrote:The series of posts where magik tells loop no that I was referencing
In post 284, MagikHorse wrote:I'm skeptical of something this old, especially since the whole point of that thread was to complain about a tactic that annoyed him. Can you find a game where he's done this strat himself to back this up in any way and prove that he would actually do something like this?

RE Muh: I'm sitting neutral on him right now. Despite the potential scumminess of his vote on you, I like that he immediately questioned Thespio for voting the lurkers in . In general a vote on a lurking slot isn't going to get you any information when you could be pressuring a more active slot to at least learn some things about them, and calling him out on that earns some town points from me to even the scales.

In post 289, MagikHorse wrote:One game isn't enough for me to meta read someone on, and it was a replace-in quite a ways into the game too. The fight with NSG also seemed to consist of a whole lot of little posts, but nothing this big. A bunch of little posts sounds different to me than a few big ones, although I still agree that he's tunneled at least a little bit.

Either way that game feels radically different than what he's doing here, and this whole "He complained about something 3 years ago" thing doesn't really make me believe in it. This feels like a massive stretch to me to try and link these together in this manner.

In post 301, MagikHorse wrote:
In post 295, Loopdan wrote:@Magik - Don't forget that other post where he categorizes his own play as tunneling NSG was posted 10 days ago. This inconsistency on how he views his play here is more than a curiosity.

He said "trying to tunnel" in that other game, which implies that he's telling the truth that he never quite felt like he really got into a full-blown tunnel as he planned and hurts that as an inconsistency, unless I think he's lying when he's already been hammered and the game lost for some reason. By that point I don't have much reason to expect lies from him.

I don't really see any reason why this tunnel (which was admittedly pretty small when you started calling it that) couldn't come from Town and has to come from Scum specifically, and that's my big hangup right now. Why is this a scum tunnel and not a town tunnel besides your flimsy meta reasonings?

[table]
[/table]


I follow Magiks trajectory here and yes I see him asking Loop to evaluate why he believes what he's saying. +Town Magik.

I guess the way you were refutj g my point made it seem like you meant Magik was TMI'ng you as town and Loop kind of fell in line. Which isn't what I was seeing.

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Post Post #865  (isolation #36)  » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:03 am

In post 863, Munchmellow wrote:
In post 856, Enter wrote:
In post 854, RCEnigma wrote:Yes, conversely if Loop flips town voters are doing the buddying. Buddying you, get what I mean?


I follow and agree. Which is a big reason that, if both are town, loop is a better flip.


Well, I don't follow. Can you dumb it down please (and I swear, I am actually not dumb :oops: )


Sure, what I'm getting at is that if Enter vs Loop is TvT then scum are egging it on. Since the side that is going to flip is always Loopdan, scum would be trying to get on Enters good side.

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Post Post #870  (isolation #37)  » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:10 am

Then it's just wifom at that point.

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Post Post #871  (isolation #38)  » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:15 am

In post 866, Enter wrote:I disagree. I'm stuck at my phone ATM, but I really think elements flip clears pretty much nothing for us. I honestly think it might be a difference in how we read people, then, but especially based on Loopdans interactions with other players and vise versa it gives me a lot to work with when casing someone the next day.

Elements ... I feel I have almost nothing. Going purely by votecount isn't going to get me very far, either.


Maybe it's just a olaystyle difference, but your post pinged me as straight wrong. I'll look at it more closely once I get to my computer


Possibly, if we both think the other is wrong we aren't going to reach an agreement. I think the amount of bussing that occurs in newbie games is actually pretty high, I've seen it a fair bit here. So for Loop to have gone for so long as the likely Lynch candidate without being hammered pings me a bit. It would be hard for his partner to hammer for the town credit. It buys them at least a day or two.

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Post Post #872  (isolation #39)  » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:16 am

Wouldn't* grammar really is hard.

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Post Post #876  (isolation #40)  » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:23 am

Well you say that but every hammer is scrutinized, that's part of the hesitation aspect. Of course that's dependent on who you play with.

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Post Post #881  (isolation #41)  » Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:50 am

I've got intent but don't plan on hammering just yet so we can get some valid arguments out.

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Post Post #910  (isolation #42)  » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:42 pm

Due to my schedule I'll be up and about end of day so getting a Lynch before deadline won't be an issue.

Enter, Magik, loop would be my town circle with Thespio right outside of that and then maybe skellen though that's an early read and I haven't delved into her posts super deeply. Leaving munch and Muh in my scum pile.

I'll exclude Elements for now since it's an ambiguous claim that I think resolves tonight or tomorrow?

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Post Post #911  (isolation #43)  » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:43 pm

I don't think it's necessary to unvote or for Skellen to end the day early especially without Loopdan having a final say since this is literally his last day.

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Post Post #913  (isolation #44)  » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:59 pm

I do if elements isn't fake claiming here.

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Post Post #940  (isolation #45)  » Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:38 pm

Mod won't even touch down for another 4 hours or so, could we all keep it in our pants eh?

Everyone's so anxious to flip Loop it's making me nervous.

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Post Post #966  (isolation #46)  » Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:29 pm

Yeah maybe we don't let Enter lead the Lynch today.

VOTE: MunchMellow

Munch is confirmed scum now that elements and Loop have both flipped town, I'll go back over why on one of my breaks when I've got a bit of time.

I'm actually really surprised no one else is questioning their read on Enter after those flips. I'm not sure what that means yet but I'll think on it a bit more.

It could be slots hoping to avoid confrontation which is NAI for everyone else and slightly +town for Enter but I'm not sure. Remind me to gather my thoughts on Enter avoidance after my munch case.

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Post Post #971  (isolation #47)  » Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:17 pm

Not necessarily PoE, to quote FlavorLeaf... It's wagonomics. I'm not super sold on a world with Scum!Enter but it's something I'm keeping in mind. I recall reading Enter isn't new so with that in mind Newbie queue is one of the queues to go wild with different playstyles or strats so I can't throw out the idea of Scum!Enter completely.

I suspect Muh but based on the wagons and votes it confirms munch to me but not necessarily Muh. I'd have to go back through with associations in mind but I don't know off the top of my head who munch is with.

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Post Post #979  (isolation #48)  » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:46 pm

Fair enough, when I confirmed I just started with a post by post kind of thing like I started the game from the beginning but didn't check who I replaced.

I may have read the bad for scum line the wrong way but it seemed to me like he TMI'D you as town since you replacing in is only bad for scum if you aren't scum.

Also it's opportunistic to pile onto Loop only AFTER you started digging into him then justifying it by saying you were pointing out all the things he was thinking. You accused LoopDan of this same behavior regarding Magik and his townread on you evolving artificially. But it was only scummy when Loop did it but not Muh.

We got Munch as scum from so, unfortunate but net win.

I'm not sure about the last part, those reads didn't change, I don't really know what you are getting at.

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Post Post #991  (isolation #49)  » Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:17 am

My reads haven't changed much I townread Magik and Thespio, Enter is a town lean. Skellen is a town lean both of whom I'll be re evaluating though I think I'm on the right track.

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Post Post #992  (isolation #50)  » Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:51 am

[
In post 313, Nauci wrote:
Vote Count 1.7

Thespio (3) - PvtUrist , Munchmellow , Elements

Loopdan (3) - Enter , muh316 , Skellen

PvtUrist (1) - Elements , Skellen , Loopdan , Thespio

Elements (1) - Thespio , MagikHorse

Enter (1) - Loopdan

UNVOTE/Not Voting - Skellen , PvtUrist , Munchmellow , Elements , MagikHorse , Enter , muh316 , Thespio , Loopdan , muh316

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch or not lynch.

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2019-01-21 05:00:00).


Mod Notes

PvtUrist has been prodded. He has (expired on 2019-01-15 14:00:00) to post game-relevant content before I begin seeking a replacement.


This is obviously from my point of view but for context this is where Loop picked up steam and voters.

In post 354, Nauci wrote:
Vote Count 1.8

Loopdan (4) - Enter , muh316 , Skellen , Thespio

Thespio (3) - PvtUrist , Munchmellow , Elements

Elements (1) - Thespio , MagikHorse

Enter (1) - Loopdan

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch or not lynch.

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2019-01-21 05:00:00).


Mod Notes

A group of kittens is called a "kindle", and "clowder" is a term that refers to a group of adult cats.


So we have Loop at L-1 very much in danger of just being turbolynched at this point. Loop doesn't vote his counterwagon so that scum can't choose either or and they're pigeon holed.

If Thespio is a scum counterwagon at this point his partner is absolutely Magik but I don't think scum fights both wagons at this point keeping in mind the gamestate.

Loops wagon stagnates suggesting two on or one on one off. Magik could hammer here so in the case of one off I think this points to Munch.

In the case of two on it would be more of a tossup and mostly assumptions.

This is the wagon that pedsisted for most of the day until Loop/Elements. But even those vcs are pretty similar and tell me the same thing.

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Post Post #993  (isolation #51)  » Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:57 am

So basically a Magik/Thespio have the power to end the day at that point in the game, which Enter has been calling for.

I found it pretty hard as I was reading through to imagine Enter/Thespio scum. Muh/enter could make sense or skellen/Thespio but I found it more likely that on was on and one was off Loops wagon. Magik had more wiggle room the either munch or Elements which was my Poe at the time but I think it kind of solidifies with Elements flipping as town.

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Post Post #994  (isolation #52)  » Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:00 am

In post 980, Enter wrote:
In post 979, RCEnigma wrote:Also it's opportunistic to pile onto Loop only AFTER you started digging into him then justifying it by saying you were pointing out all the things he was thinking. You accused LoopDan of this same behavior regarding Magik and his townread on you evolving artificially. But it was only scummy when Loop did it but not Muh.

I need an example of this.


Example of scumreading Loop for this line of thinking or townreading Muh for this line of thinking?

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Post Post #996  (isolation #53)  » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:08 am

In post 995, MagikHorse wrote:
In post 993, RCEnigma wrote:So basically a Magik/Thespio have the power to end the day at that point in the game, which Enter has been calling for.

Calling myself out a bit here, but wouldn't it be a reasonable play then to elongate the day to look more town, or do you think a scum!me and scum!Thespio just ends it there early anyways because Enter is crying for an immediate lynch?

In post 993, RCEnigma wrote:Magik had more wiggle room the either munch or Elements which was my Poe at the time but I think it kind of solidifies with Elements flipping as town.

What exactly do you mean by "I had more wiggle room"? More wiggle room to do what exactly?


I think people have the misconception that anything scummy they do gets them lynched when I would argue that it benefits town more to have elongated days than scum. That and yes scum!You could have used Enter calling for end of day as your defense.

That contradicts my answer to the next question though. I feel as the day progresses you had more townie moments that were picked up by multiple slots than either munch or Muh which for the most part only had Enter shielding them because Loop was scum no matter what so any push Loop made had to be against town right?

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Post Post #999  (isolation #54)  » Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:52 am

To be fair I outlined Loops read trajectory on you and you dismissed it as him not having an opinion. Yes Muh did the exact same thing even disregarding the vote itself.

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Post Post #1001  (isolation #55)  » Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:04 pm

Post and post both come a few hours apart with no posting in between and go from "I disagree with most of Enters arguments" straight into a vote because their thinking on Loop is in line.

It could be a genuine progression but I don't view it as more organic than Loops in any way.

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Post Post #1018  (isolation #56)  » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:49 pm

I'll go over the final wagons a bit later, skellen do your questions still stand?

@Magik it's more or less wifom but I feel the gamestate allowed for the hammer to be allowable if that makes sense. It probably would have been a viable play and as scum I probably would have pushed for it if enter is in fact town.

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Post Post #1021  (isolation #57)  » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:05 am

If he survives through the day he never lynches you and if he's lynched but flips town you can use that advocation as a defense. That's just surface level though.

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Post Post #1022  (isolation #58)  » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:06 am

I'm not sure I buy it to be honest mostly because Magik didn't fully side with Loop until Enter started pushing on him too.

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Post Post #1024  (isolation #59)  » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:12 am

I can agree with that. Another thing, I don't really think Magik tried to get Loop on his side to push lynches. Not that he was leading any pushes so maybe it would just be under-utilization of a pocket? Though I think Magik is pretty capable and could have used it to manipulate Loop if a pocket was his goal.

I'll keep this in mind when rereading his iso.

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Post Post #1027  (isolation #60)  » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:19 am

You're right I stand corrected, the avatars looked similar on mobile I apologize.

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Post Post #1029  (isolation #61)  » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:23 am

In post 1025, muh316 wrote:Now for the players on the Off Wagon
It's RCE. The initial self scumread still looks fake to me. Also he never voted all of D1 outside of RVS. Didn't bother putting pressure on anyone and just laid low for D1. That's obvious lurker behavior.


This is only true based on the votecounts, Elements was at L-1 when I got my bearings on the game and my intent to hammer forced his claim. I felt Loop was town and wasn't comfortable voting one of my stronger townreads. Besides that I hate to say I like this line of thinking actually.

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Post Post #1032  (isolation #62)  » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:42 am

Lurker is also a misrep as I only repped in with 2 or so days left in day 1 and would argue I have a decent amount of content to sort through, I'll write it off to Omgus but the shoe doesn't fit.

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Post Post #1033  (isolation #63)  » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:47 am

I can only base my meta evaluation for Thespio on one game played with them and one game viewed so take it with a grain of salt, I think Thespio has a naturally scummy playstyle I can relate to.

However his interactions with Enter early day 1 are reminiscent of the newbie game I finished with him in which he only stopped obvscumming after an unsuccessful push on me. Even then he was a top scumread due to circumstance.

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Post Post #1037  (isolation #64)  » Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:18 am

In the unvote section Muh should be Thespio instead. Muh is in there twice as a vote on magic and not voting. Also Magik is striked out twice

@Mod

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Post Post #1114  (isolation #65)  » Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:50 pm

In post 1103, Enter wrote:
In post 1102, MagikHorse wrote:Yeah, no dice Enter. Telling me to take his words and put them in a certain way only manipulates the result. That wouldn't be my case at all, nor would it be his. That's aside from the fact that I'm already having difficulties understanding everything going on in this muddy mess, and I'd rather not waste my time trying.

As I said you're both flipping out here, and I don't think either side is truly listening to the other fully.

Yeah. The worst part is I'm tempted to TR him, but I hate positively responding to emotional outbursts like that or even encouraging discussions to be had in the manner we just had it.

I feel like people are looking to me to lead town again today (and maybe I'm off in this) but I really honestly don't want to after yesterday. I don't feel strongly in any of my reads, I can give basic explanations for them later, but my Thespio push is an attempt to sort. I was kind of hoping to see someone else take an angle on this and push it somewhere that made sense.


Can't speak for anyone else but I wasn't looking for this honestly.

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Post Post #1115  (isolation #66)  » Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:54 pm

In post 1108, Thespio wrote:VOTE: RCE


I get Enter being weird with his vote. Is your case against me also against my slot and not me?

I can't defend Pvt but after knowing what slot I replaced into his play makes sense. Maybe you answered it this page but I'm still reading the pages I missed. If it isn't clear could I get an answer on this?

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Post Post #1116  (isolation #67)  » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:05 pm

In post 1111, Skellen wrote:I disagree about RCE being an unlikely partner for muh. Muh and RCE bark at each other, but they haven't bitten each other yet. Like when RCE implied he would have preferred a muh lynch, just to go after you the next day, but still keeps muh warm. Same with muh now on Day 2, just that he targets Magik over RCE. This looks like they are carefully burning all bridges between them, knowing that it could become difficult for one of them, maybe even both during Day 2.


I maintain that Munch is scum. I get it's not solid to anyone outside of my slot because you have to single my slot as town to reach that conclusion, looks like I'm universally scumread from repping in so tough luck for me but you guys probably won't reach that conclusion till I flip.

Munch and muh had even scum equity to me pre flip but munch more so with the information from the flips. I stand by my reads so there is no confusion if we end up in a day 3 that I'm not a part of for whatever reason.

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Post Post #1123  (isolation #68)  » Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:07 am

Again the no votes is a misrep. In pvt's case yeah I get it he had all game to do so, I can't speak for him. When I repped in and read through any vote I placed would have been a hammer.

Basing a large part of your read on not hammering Loop or Elements post claim is off base. Pre claim I voiced my intent to hammer leading to his claim. Which is kind of condemning if your argument is that scum was pretty hunting by switching the wagons (which I had no part in).

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Post Post #1124  (isolation #69)  » Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:10 am

Ebwop: PR not pretty.

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Post Post #1127  (isolation #70)  » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:16 am

Why are you voting me and simultaneously chainsaw defending me? Are you scumreading Muh? I don't recall if you've posted your reads or not, from what I could tell munch and I were your scumspects and Enter briefly but I didn't really read your back and forth, kind of tuned out to those.

In post 1084, Thespio wrote:You flipped out when i suggested we not ignore your skummy wagon.

Dude we talked about this D1, I want to look at PVTs slot. I want RCE to explain the shiftyness of their slot and why their vote didnt move.

Also im not failing to be objective you are just arent explaining yourself you just say you were misrepped


I've explained why I didn't vote, I imagine I would have been up Shits Creek without a paddle if I did so damned if I do damned if I don't.

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Post Post #1128  (isolation #71)  » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:22 am

In post 829, Nauci wrote:
Vote Count 1.16

Elements (4) - Thespio , MagikHorse , Thespio , MagikHorse , Loopdan , Munchmellow

Loopdan (3) - Enter , muh316 , Skellen , Thespio , Thespio , Elements

Thespio (1) - RCEnigma (PvtUrist) , Munchmellow , Elements

UNVOTE/Not Voting (1) - Skellen , RCEnigma (PvtUrist) , Munchmellow , Elements , MagikHorse , Enter , muh316 , Thespio , Loopdan , muh316 , Thespio , Loopdan , Skellen , Thespio , Munchmellow

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch or not lynch.

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2019-01-21 05:00:00).


Mod Notes

Enter is V/LA for (expired on 2019-01-22 12:00:00).
Thespio is V/LA for (expired on 2019-01-20 10:00:00).
I am unavailable today from about 1 pm to 8 pm PST because flying; will check as soon as possible if there are updates.

In post 935, Nauci wrote:
Vote Count 1.17

Loopdan (4) - Enter , muh316 , Skellen , Thespio , Thespio , Elements , MagikHorse

Elements (2) - Thespio , MagikHorse , Thespio , MagikHorse , Loopdan , Munchmellow

Thespio (1) - RCEnigma (PvtUrist) , Munchmellow , Elements

UNVOTE/Not Voting (2) - Skellen , RCEnigma (PvtUrist) , Munchmellow , Elements , MagikHorse , Enter , muh316 , Thespio , Loopdan , muh316 , Thespio , Loopdan , Skellen , Thespio , Munchmellow , MagikHorse , Munchmellow

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch or not lynch.

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2019-01-21 05:00:00).


Mod Notes

Enter is V/LA for (expired on 2019-01-22 12:00:00).
Thespio has been prodded. If the day ends before he posts, he is required to pm me or post in any relevant PTs before the next day begins, or I will seek a replacement before night is over.

I am unavailable today from about 1 pm to 8 pm PST because flying; will check as soon as possible if there are updates.

I apologize if I'm not able to process the results in the next 90 minutes that I'm up in the air.



VCs from after I caught up, posted intent to hammer Elements and he claimed. Wagon flipped to Loop, offered to stretch the deadline since I would have been active around then and it was snap hammered anyway. I don't believe in vanity voting it's not useful. At least not in these setups generally.

Accurate account of EoD regarding my non voting.

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Post Post #1130  (isolation #72)  » Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:07 pm

I wouldn't say good job, the cases made against me are made out of plastic held together with Play-Doh.

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Post Post #1141  (isolation #73)  » Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:49 am

In post 1131, muh316 wrote:I'd vote RCE right now but I'm not comfortable putting him at L-1 just yet. So yet another FOS: RCE



Do it, the sooner I get flipped the sooner Munch gets lynched.

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Post Post #1148  (isolation #74)  » Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:38 am

What question?

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Post Post #1151  (isolation #75)  » Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:56 am

So the Elements wagon before claiming was: Thespio, Magik, loop, munch

And the EOD wagon on Loop was: Enter, muh, elements, Magik, skellen

8 slots with 2 scum between them fmpov. From anyone else's they can argue 1 scum with me not voting but both wagons ended up being town so as scum it really wouldn't matter where I placed a vote since both would flip town but not the point.

If your argument is that Loop was an all town Lynch (since I see most slots are pushing off wagon for whatever reason) that leaves your pools at: Thespio, Munch. Since Magik was on the loop wagon.

I get the pocket argument but I don't honestly believe it, I've already stated why.

Anyways, I probably could have entertained a Thespio/Munch team day 1 with my read on Thespio being wrong but I'm not sure Thespio comes out against Munch day 2 this way? Take that with a grain of salt because he's still voting me off the back of Enters vague read.

That said it nullifies the all town theory for Loops Lynch for me, muh and skellen would be the first two slots I point out on Loops wagon.

There isn't any real reason to eliminate any of a group of 4 (munch,Thespio,Muh,Skellen) when there are two scum and possibly both within that grouping.

I will say that Magik is the only slot to appear on both but I'm not sure scum particularly needed to be that bold when skellen and I both offered to hammer the Lynch before deadline. There wasn't really a fear from scums side of the Lynch not going through or flipping at the last second.

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Post Post #1153  (isolation #76)  » Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:09 am

Yeah that's pretty hilarious?

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Post Post #1159  (isolation #77)  » Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:57 am

Experience doesn't have anything to do with being overwhelmed or losing interest.

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Post Post #1169  (isolation #78)  » Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:42 pm

In post 1167, Skellen wrote:@Thespio/Munch scumteam:
However Thespio never really did anything against Munch on Day 2. See above in my post the part I addressed at Thespio. I would rule out Thespio/Munch on a different basis though. Back in Day 1 when the wagon against your slot started rolling with being put at L-2 by Loop, Munch voted for Thespio which was the second vote. Elements' vote change from Pvt to Thespio L-2 came shortly after that before Thespio equalized with voting Pvt. I find it unlikely that someone would choose his/her scum partner as counterwagon to a town wagon (assuming you are town).


I can agree that thank you for the reference point. Was Loopdan a wagon at that point? Or was it just Pvt and Thespio?

I said that regarding Magik because both end of day wagons ended up being town. Originally he was on the Elements wagon until the claim. Obviously the Lynch is going to be Loop at that point since it was so close to end of day so there really wasn't much reason to have a presence on both wagons as scum. Loop would have been lynched without scum intervention. They may have already been on the wagon but I don't think Magik moving to loop is any way to indicate that.

I think when I was catching up I entertained muh with Munch as I hadn't necessarily scumread Munch at that point. But I think there was something I read that made me put that combination on pause but I don't remember what exactly so I'll have to come back to that.

Munch is an ambiguous slot, I may have been doing a lazy job catching up or I was just rushing. But at no point did Munch stand out to me day 1 at all and without going through her iso I couldn't tell you anything she said or did day 1. That's not necessarily scum indicative but it makes associations difficult. Which is why I leaned on the Vote logic.

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Post Post #1176  (isolation #79)  » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:05 am

I'll say that it isn't as effective as you are thinking to hunt in terms of associations. I'm guilty of this as well but you end up biasing or wifoming yourself. Interactions that could be town/town get read as scum motivated and vice versa based on unflipped assumptions.

Which was my main qualms with elements and Loop asking for pre flip associations based on what they would flip moreso than it being a guiding factor for nightkills.

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Post Post #1207  (isolation #80)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:14 am

There isn't really a way I can better articulate why I believe Munch to be scum other than what I've already outlined. The alternative and the only thing that would make my assumption untrue is if Enter was just scum pushing Loop day 1 or the team is something like Thespio/Muh.

I'm not interested in exploring Enter scum since he's at some point been townspewed anyways, if it's enter then props and this is probably just a town loss. I'm even more confident on Magik being town than Enter to be honest, there's nothing besides the pocket argument that viably points to him as scum and I know first hand that town can easily pocket town. He didn't produce anything from the pocket that I can say yeah it has scum equity.

What frustrates me is Enter townshielding slots that I am actively against or that are actively against me because I know that's a townie that is pushing against my wincon as town and is one less vote on potential scum. It's less of an issue now because there are 3 other townies in the mix that I have to hope can see eye to eye with me OR can put the pieces together in the event I'm lynched or die. But will be an issue if I'm put into a lylo situation with Enter.

I have to trust he can correctly evaluate the game and right now I'm not super confident in that (no offense, just my opinion on the get state and your play).

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Post Post #1222  (isolation #81)  » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:21 am

I don't know if it's the lack of evaluation this game or the stubbornness regarding reads. I can't put my finger on it but it's made me less invested in the game. Skellen is still trying to gamesolve so that's probably selfish of me. Her and Magik I probably never lynch.

Skellen to answer you partly. It's not that I feel there is doubt, the alternative I posed is unlikely but to me is the only way that Munch is town here fmpov. Thus my surety on her flipping scum.

If Muh flips scum munch is just the partner, I doubt much vs Magik today was scum theater, Thespio would deserve some consideration. I know you discounted Munch/Thespio together and I think the logic is sound there.

Munch/muh would fit the scum apathy theory Loop brought up and based on both day 1 wagons being town it points to the advocates/sheep votes and not the leaders of the lynches.

Enter this probably narrows your Poe down to just me but afaik your accusations on Magik/less so loop were in part for leading a counterwagon in Elements. I don't see the scum motivation behind getting Elements wagon going when a strong wagon against Loop as town was already rolling. Sure it makes sure at least one of the two flips and the danger of a wagon flipping on scum is nullified but it was pretty apparent Loop was going to be lynched despite his VT claim.

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Post Post #1224  (isolation #82)  » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:23 am

In post 1221, Thespio wrote:Also, this should clear me to some degree, he was Jailor, If he thought it was me wouldnt he jail me?


Speaking of wifom.... I think he shit elsewhere regardless.

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Post Post #1225  (isolation #83)  » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:23 am

Ebwop: shot..............

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Post Post #1235  (isolation #84)  » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:20 am

In post 1232, muh316 wrote:Before anyone else votes me, just to make this clear. My D1 play was heavily biased against Loop. I saw Enter's case against him and thought this was an open and shut case. I got lazy and felt that nothing else had to be done. The whole battle between them was extremely entertaining to watch from the sidelines and I was eager for it to come to an end. That's the reason why I didn't do my part as well as I should have.

However, I'm sure everyone can say that D2 my involvement has been a complete 180 from then. Before you hammer, I'd just like everyone to evaluate me based on what I've done D2 as well and not just tunnel my D1 play. Lynching me for sheeping on D1 isn't a valid reason to me. If I do get lynched today, I encourage everyone to take another look at those who have picked up this issue and voted for me.

I still feel that an RCE lynch is going to get us the better chance at hitting scum so I'll keep my vote on him. I'm going to sleep now in a couple minutes. Hopefully tomorrow morning we come to a conclusion that's best for town. My reads still stand at where they were before.



Your case on me is on my day 1 play and mostly not even mine specifically. But it looks like you or me so I get it. Just thought it was worth commenting that your defense contradicts your case.

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Post Post #1237  (isolation #85)  » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:38 am

Lol I feel for you man, the curse of being a universal townread.

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Post Post #1239  (isolation #86)  » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:49 am

You know I'm not budging on Magik, you'd have to convince the rest of town.

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Post Post #1249  (isolation #87)  » Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:40 am

You think Muh is being bussed here?

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Post Post #1288  (isolation #88)  » Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:34 pm

With that end of day it feels pretty open/shut VOTE: Much that's L-2

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Post Post #1295  (isolation #89)  » Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:14 pm

Sorry VOTE: muh L-1

Not that I think the order matters at this point.

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Post Post #1311  (isolation #90)  » Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:57 pm

Enter you're gonna give me a complex...

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Post Post #1322  (isolation #91)  » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:53 am

UNVOTE:

Who else was elements scumreading going into the night? Enter why Thespio specifically? You see how this looks shady right?

The way I saw Muh speaking about it and munch specifically I thought Muh was nudging munch to claim tracker, you probably would have gone with it enter just on your insistence munch is town but that really caught my eye.

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Post Post #1323  (isolation #92)  » Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:03 am

I get checking enter after Loop flipped kind of, but why follow muh? It looked like you were convinced muh was flipping red so in my mind the play would be to check your next read. In this case me.

That may be a playstyle thing but it makes more sense to me.

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Post Post #1346  (isolation #93)  » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:45 pm

In post 1333, MagikHorse wrote:I think I see where Enter is going with this (which is a first for this game). I wrote a small defense, but I think this needs to ride a little bit before I throw that out.

Still, after Munch posts I'd like to hear how Enter pegged Thespio as Tracker like this. I hope I don't have to explain why that pings me as strange.

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Post Post #1350  (isolation #94)  » Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:23 am

So I've been thinking about it and Enter as rolecop doesn't make sense. If that's the case and he has a check on tracker he gets ahead of the claim or has his partner claim. I don't get the angle though.

Thespio is town tracker: Muh/munch is all that makes sense to me. But I think in that case he should have checked someone besides muh.

Thespio is Scum: Thespio/Magik? Skellen convinced me Thespio/muh isn't the team. I don't think scum ever fake claims in Mylo on a partner that was going to be lynched the previous day. It's way too premature.

I still don't know what Enter was getting at or why he prodded Thespio for a claim directly.

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Post Post #1351  (isolation #95)  » Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:24 am

I still feel like I'm right on munch/ and therefore muh.

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Post Post #1357  (isolation #96)  » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:20 am

Well he said no result, which isn't the same as visited no one.

My issue is that you're pleading to Enter instead of refuting that following you to a kill wasn't possible. It wouldn't be if you're VT.

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Post Post #1358  (isolation #97)  » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:21 am

I think both targets are bad investigations. Neither make a ton of sense, but I've never pulled a PR in a newbie game so I guess I don't really have a point of reference.

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Post Post #1369  (isolation #98)  » Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:24 pm

In post 1364, muh316 wrote:Then comes out with the fact that Thespio didn't really have to claim. I was already at L-2 at that point, so I could have easily been lynched within a few real life days of discussion. Why would a PR bother claiming and risking getting NK'd N3? They would be far more valuable on D4


So I thought about this as well and feel guilty about throwing my vote down as early as I did. However with enter and Magik voting with me the only way scum blitzes is if you're town and the team is Thespio/munch. Enter unvoted pretty quickly but Thespio/munch still could have quick hammered. Or Thespio/Magik where Thespio could have quick hammered and wouldn't have had to claim at all since if he's scum and you're town the game just ends.

Enter do you still want me to answer about Thespio/Magik after Magiks post or is it a moot point? Or did you want my take on the likelihood that Elements jailkept Thespio?

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Post Post #1370  (isolation #99)  » Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:25 pm

In post 1365, muh316 wrote:
In post 1362, Enter wrote:If muh or munch are scum, one of you should have counterclaimed thespio, prolly


Right, I've been on this site for almost 10 years now. If I was scum that is exactly what I would have done to create confusion in the town.


Hmm, fair enough I don't doubt your scum game though I'm not familiar with it.

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Post Post #1401  (isolation #100)  » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:55 pm

I've been skimming but I have other obligations at the moment. Don't think I will be able to properly read though till tonight or tomorrow.

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Post Post #1412  (isolation #101)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:47 pm

Thoughts on:

Nightkill

So Skellen does make sense for the nightkill, no offense Enter but Skellen was less set in her game view. Therefore I think less likely to be pocketed at any point. Muh/munch would have been in a good spot from day 1 just on the strength that they agreed against Loop. At the end of the day I don't think it makes a ton of difference given the push on muh end of day.

Day start

This will be short, neither Thespio or Muh do themselves any favors. Thespio should come out of the gate if his check is guilty. Muh brought this weird hypothetical where he's town but Thespio is also tracker. Not outright but in an implied way that sent shivers up my spine.

I think it's still worth going back and looking at day 1 considering most of the day Thespio was the counterwagon to Loop.

I also don't want to get into Magik and munch too much because I also feel biased that I was right on my town/scumreads but Enter and I have been on different pages of the same book for awhile now.

Enter what do you think about the day 1 wagons and specifically the end of day wagons. I'm mostly interested in how you feel the composition plays out.

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Post Post #1422  (isolation #102)  » Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:55 am

In post 1415, Enter wrote:Something weird about day one wagons:

Thespio is one of the only two people to vote magik (it was when he was saying things about lurkers) but he calls Pvt scum (and there are other lurkers than MDb. Not super susp of this, but it's worth noting.(Lippmann is the other, don't wanna talk about him anymore)

Also magik is one of the three people to never vote thespio(muh didn't cuz he was following me on loopdan and loosen didn't... huh.)

The same three people that never voted thespio are also the only people to vote for muh. Not sure that's useful at all, but it's funny.

And no one voted munchmellow. Magik wasn't really around for Thespio wagon, so both of these scum teams were pretty relaxed during the big portion of the game


So the wagons at almost all times were 1 on 1 off regardless of which pairing you go with. The difference is munch/muh would have been passively letting town destroy itself. Thespio/Magik would have been posturing for town cred.

Which is why pushing Elements is weird from that angle. Even if Magik didn't have a change of heart on loop as long as they stall the game out Loop is lynched and they don't have to pursue the Lynch on elements.

Unless they are just openly rolefishing but the gamble on rolehunting with the nightkill isn't that high. And if there is a rolecop in play even less so because they get the night 1 check to go on presumably.

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Post Post #1471  (isolation #103)  » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:03 am

I'm inclined to agree. I think the most damning thing is the missed hammer and 180 today. There are also inconsistencies regarding muh/Munch's stance on whether or not Thespio is tracker. Not so much muh anymore but Munch still considering it is weird to me. Thespio should be confirmed scum from both of their perspectives.

I was also thinking that doc would have been the easy claim from scum here. Why would it have been more believable for Thespio to be doc enter?

A doc claim would have implied a roleblocker so Elements dying in the night would have been reasonable. There's also the argument the chance to be blocked is doubled with blocker and with elements scumreading Thespio.

VOTE: Muh

I think this ends with muh and then munch.

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Post Post #1474  (isolation #104)  » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:07 am

Hmm that's hammer huh?

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Post Post #1478  (isolation #105)  » Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:48 am

Lol I honestly didn't know what slot I repped into. Which is why I immediately stopped that page by page catchup crap. Was ready to kick myself.

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Post Post #1479  (isolation #106)  » Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:49 am

Thespio carried honestly. And yeah no lynching just means enter dies in the night and Magik is already townreading Thespio. I've been working myself into Magiks good side for two days.

Plus the no Lynch on muh was kind of fortunate for us.

Anyways GG all.

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Post Post #1481  (isolation #107)  » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:19 am

It was so spot on. I was like damn, if I wasn't scum with Thespio I would've 100% Lynch Thespio and let muh carry.

Avoided answering Enter's questions about Thespio's day start because I didn't want it brought up again.

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Post Post #1486  (isolation #108)  » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:01 am

Exactly, a lot of people were on the right track. I think the biggest thing was that Thespio and I constantly threw shade at each other or gave scummy reads on each other, but were on the same side of every issue.

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Post Post #1487  (isolation #109)  » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:03 am

In post 1484, Skellen wrote:Aw, we got the bad ending. Well played, guys. Particularly RCE was really impressive on Day 3 walking the thin line between Thespio and muh until Enter had made his mind up. No one were thinking about you anymore.


It was important Enter came to a decision before I did in case we ended up with another day.

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Post Post #1488  (isolation #110)  » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:07 am

Also what happened there was I threw up the dichotomy and Enter didn't really dig into it when I said it. Basically munch couldn't be scum with anyone except muh after missing the hammer.

I don't generally see scum teams townreading each other all game so I thought the Magik/Thespio pairing would fall apart.

I was debating on if I should bring up that scum voted one on and one off each wagon because that broke up the thespio/Magik pair too but not in a "they both have to be town" kind of way.

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Post Post #1492  (isolation #111)  » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:50 am

Yeah I figured elements would jail Thespio that night. If I thought he would go for someone else we probably would have medic dodged to be safe.

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Post Post #1510  (isolation #112)  » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:19 am

Skellen played very well and I'd be interested to see how she handles rolling scum. I think she could be dangerous. Since I've joined I've run into a lot of newbies with scary good town games.

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Post Post #1513  (isolation #113)  » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:53 am

Yes, don't be afraid to be wrong. Town is generally punching around in the dark until they smack into something. That's kind of my advice for playing scum as well. I think my first scum game I was afraid Everytime I posted, I just had that paranoid "everyone knows" kind of mentality.

Being scumread isn't that bad as long as you can make someone else look scummier.

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Post Post #1515  (isolation #114)  » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:26 am

It shouldn't have even been that, like I had to just manufacture some bs against Munch to keep her from being yet another universal townread and stick to it.

Skellen you were spot on I was originally intending to claim tracker with a guilty on munch.

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Post Post #1518  (isolation #115)  » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:48 am

I was moreso trying to emphasize Loopdans observation on scum apathy in relation to the wagons at the time but no one bit on it. Plus only munch muh and elements were mislynchable day 1 and I had to start a push to go into day 2 with.


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