Individual-1 (Donald Trump)

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Post Post #18855  (isolation #0)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:12 pm

It's still early game, so I can't say for sure, but I think i fos trump as scum
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Post Post #18857  (isolation #1)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:26 pm

yeah i had to change the wording because I couldn't bring myself to do it
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Post Post #19067  (isolation #2)  » Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:24 am

don jr is next for lying to congress?

*crosses fingers*
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Post Post #19184  (isolation #3)  » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:02 pm

In post 19179, YellowSnow wrote:I'm not defending Trump as a person but Republicanism seems more mainstream to me than the leftist policies that the democratic party is moving towards.

Recent opinion polls suggest the opposite (even more so if we were to include the rest of the western world where things like single payer healthcare are popular and have not bankrupted the countries that have them)

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/01/ ... -rate.html
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/29/politics ... index.html
https://thehill.com/homenews/news/42750 ... -wall-poll
https://news.gallup.com/poll/238013/ame ... lpful.aspx]
https://www.wsaw.com/content/news/Marqu ... 36501.html (this is wisconsin specific but i couldn't find nearly as recent a poll for nationwide)
https://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/st ... -all-gun-/ (shows that background checks for gun sales has been consistently more mainstream than the republican position)


So if you're simply trying to align yourself with mainstream policies, hop on the donkey
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Post Post #19185  (isolation #4)  » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:04 pm

And I'm not saying that there aren't a lot of people who disagree with progressive policy ideas. There are plenty, and the polls I listed show that.

But to paint leftist policies with the broad assertion that they are not "mainstream" ideas seems false.
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Post Post #19189  (isolation #5)  » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:20 pm

In post 19189, Creature wrote:I dunno how much I like the Republican party. I guess I'm just fond of it because I consider myself moderate right.

Hillary Clinton should have been your ideal candidate if you go strictly by policy position, then. :yawn:
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Post Post #19194  (isolation #6)  » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:38 pm

I'm just saying hillary is

a war hawk
minimally-to-not supportive of identity issues from a policy-priority standpoint
very cozy with business interests and wall st
didn't want a 70%+ marginal tax rate


If you're center right, you'll wish you had Hillary if this new progressive wing of the Democrat Party wins in 2020
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Post Post #19197  (isolation #7)  » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:46 pm

oh, i didn't know that. carry on, then LOL
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Post Post #19198  (isolation #8)  » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:50 pm

^talking to creature
In post 19197, YellowSnow wrote:I voted Hillary.

cool. me, too. I actually voted for her in the primary because I expected a republican senate (and thus no less progress on domestic issues than Sanders) and Hillary was dramatically more qualified on foreign policy, hawk or not.

I voted for her in the 2008 primary, too because anyone with a brain knew that BO wasn't going to be able to bring republicans to the table. years of progress died on the cross of bi-partisanship.

so im a fan of hers even though I'm far to her left. She is objectively a moderate in our current political climate is all I was saying
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Post Post #19201  (isolation #9)  » Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:15 pm

Interestingly enough, I've noticed that republicans think that republicans are awful at messaging (pr as you called it) and that democrats are good at it
and democrats think that democrats are awful at messaging and that republicans are good at it.

Both sides are deeply disappointed in themselves =P
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Post Post #19203  (isolation #10)  » Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:16 pm

In post 19203, shaft.ed wrote:theyre actually quite good at public relations given how incredibly unpopular most of their positions are

case in point
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Post Post #19205  (isolation #11)  » Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:30 pm

No, I was speaking purely about perceptions.
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Post Post #19209  (isolation #12)  » Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:20 pm

In post 19208, YellowSnow wrote:Unpopular with liberal websites...

You don't have to believe that cnn or whatever website a poll is on to evaluate the poll itself and decide if it's trustworthy. Any poll worth reading has very transparent policies concerning their methods and results.

Let's take Gallup, for example. Here's a link to the first politics related poll I saw on their site. At the bottom, they discuss their methodology.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/246371/ame ... ew%2520Low

And then here they have their results for the same question going back to the '70s so you can take a look over time and compare their polling numbers to past election results or w.e and decide if they have a credible track record

https://news.gallup.com/poll/246377/ame ... edium=copy

Me, I trust smart people like Nate Silver to figure out how to determine which polls are most credible, but you can do it yourself.
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Post Post #19218  (isolation #13)  » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:59 pm

Yeah, mate

and the most bat-shit of them are organizing

don't join any bookclubs for "young american patriots"
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Post Post #19219  (isolation #14)  » Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:00 pm

I should have been clear

it's a neo-nazi recruiting tactic
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Post Post #19252  (isolation #15)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:15 pm

There are plenty of conservatives that aren't racist.

But the racists vote republican

So if Republicans don't like being identified with White Nationalism they should clean house.

Liberals didn't make the kkk vote republican (well, except by being the party to support the civil rights act..) but we do seem to be the only ones that give a shit that ya'll are aligned with them.


p.edit
YS, you hit it on the head with that comment. The President is a Republican and a white nationalist. If one voted for trump, then he voted for a white nationalist

If that's not "supporting white nationalism" then what is? Do they have to change the elephant to a burning cross first?
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Post Post #19257  (isolation #16)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:17 pm

In post 19252, YellowSnow wrote:Because most republicans think any conservative is better than any liberal. Also there is an anti government sentiment that Trump taps into.


If a person has an easier time stomaching a white nationalist in the oval office than making sure people have healthcare and allowing dreamers to stay

like, I'm sorry, but that person has fucked up priorities, and has a greater than random chance of being a racist
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Post Post #19264  (isolation #17)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:33 pm

In post 19260, YellowSnow wrote:I don't think socialist economic policies are as popular as many people seem to think. And a lot of people will stomach a racist president as opposed to a liberal economic policy.


If that doesn't make them racists, it certainly makes them racist-adjacent, and it highlights the gap in commitment to tolerance between Democrats and Republicans


Look at the difference in treatment between Rep Steve King and Gov. Northam.

Steve King said racist shit for years and years before finally pushing the republican party to slap his wrists

Nearly every democrat in the damn country has called for Northam to resign immediately.

In this country one party considers racism absolutely intolerable, and one thinks that tax policy is more important than human dignity.

So yeah, we can debate whether the Republican party is "racist" but the practical realities are obvious and unhidden
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Post Post #19271  (isolation #18)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:44 pm

In post 19265, u r a person 2 wrote:In this country one party considers racism absolutely intolerable, and one thinks that tax policy is more important than human dignity.


In this country one party considers sexual harassment and abuse absolutely intolerable, and one thinks that tax policy is more important than human dignity.

In this country one party considers homophobia and transphobia absolutely intolerable, and one thinks that tax policy is more important than human dignity.

The not-bigoted conservatives sure can stomach a lot in the name of tax cuts.
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Post Post #19274  (isolation #19)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:55 pm

In post 19268, Creature wrote:Actually I'm surprised people event elect them if they say racist things as often I think you're describing here. Like, is there no other viable non-racist Republican candidate out there?

He's a member of the house of representatives, which means that his entire district is roughly 700,000 people.

Because of how gerrymandering and demographics work, it's nearly impossible to elect a democrat (or any other party) to his seat.

He has faced primary challenges from within his own party on a few occasions, but people don't really pay attention to primary contests for safe seats like his, and very little money is spent on these campaigns.

In the elections of 2010, 2012, 2014, 2016, and 2018, he only faced a primary challenger twice, in 2016 and 2018. Vote totals for those contests were less than 45,000 people, roughly 1/7-1/10 of the number of votes cast in the general election.

tl;dr: You would think there would be more competition to be a congressman, but really no one pays attention until the choice is Republican vs Democrat

and then, like YS has pointed out, they hold their nose and vote their party (or embrace the racism, w/e)
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Post Post #19275  (isolation #20)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:56 pm

In post 19274, YellowSnow wrote:
In post 19272, u r a person 2 wrote:
In post 19265, u r a person 2 wrote:In this country one party considers racism absolutely intolerable, and one thinks that tax policy is more important than human dignity.


In this country one party considers sexual harassment and abuse absolutely intolerable, and one thinks that tax policy is more important than human dignity.

In this country one party considers homophobia and transphobia absolutely intolerable, and one thinks that tax policy is more important than human dignity.

The not-bigoted conservatives sure can stomach a lot in the name of tax cuts.


I don't think that's a fair statement. I think most republicans would prefer a conservative tax code and equal rights for minorities.


I can't argue what they would prefer, but they are certainly stomaching this shit
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Post Post #19279  (isolation #21)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:00 pm

In post 19273, Creature wrote:
In post 19272, u r a person 2 wrote:In this country one party considers homophobia and transphobia absolutely intolerable

If by homophobia and transphobia you mean something like this site's rule, then surely a lot of people would be hella scared that their humour sense could get themselves arrested.


I mean things like kicking trans people out of the military

and NOW VICE PRESIDENT mike pence's "Freedom to be a bigot" act

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious ... t_(Indiana)
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Post Post #19282  (isolation #22)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:03 pm

In post 19277, YellowSnow wrote:Well, there are a multitude of issues for voters to consider and I think most republicans(and liberals for that matter) consider social justice just one issue out of many.


Right, and they are stomaching the bigotry because they consider other issues more important. We're in agreement.
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Post Post #19283  (isolation #23)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:05 pm

In post 19279, Creature wrote:Likely because they think racist policies won't get approved?


The muslim ban was eventually effectuated

The trans military ban was eventually effectuated

The freedom to be a bigot law in indiana was eventually effectuated.

Why would anyone think that racist policies won't get approved?
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Post Post #19286  (isolation #24)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:07 pm

In post 19285, YellowSnow wrote:I don't think there's anything wrong with suggesting that social justice isn't the overriding issue of our generation. Important, yes, but there ARE other things. And that doesn't make you racist to think so.


It does make you racist-adjacent.
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Post Post #19291  (isolation #25)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:11 pm

In post 19289, YellowSnow wrote:
In post 19287, u r a person 2 wrote:
In post 19285, YellowSnow wrote:I don't think there's anything wrong with suggesting that social justice isn't the overriding issue of our generation. Important, yes, but there ARE other things. And that doesn't make you racist to think so.


It does make you racist-adjacent.


No, it really doesn't.

Yes, it really does, by definition.
part of the definition of adjacent

(used in combination)s
supporting or being an ally of a group or subculture without being a part of it:
She describes herself as queer-adjacent .

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/adjacent

If a person voted for donald trump, thus supporting him, a person that you called in this thread a racist

They are by definition, racist-adjacent.
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Post Post #19293  (isolation #26)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:13 pm

there's a reason even I don't want hillary to run in the me too era
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Post Post #19295  (isolation #27)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:16 pm

I'm old, but not old enough to have done that.
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Post Post #19298  (isolation #28)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:22 pm

I don't know anything about Bob Dole, tbh.

I would not, and do not, support the clintons in this cycle precisely because of these reasons

and I'm low key ashamed that it took me to 30 years old and the me too movement to evolve in this viewpoint
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Post Post #19299  (isolation #29)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:22 pm

I just didn't know how many people were being raped and/or abused
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Post Post #19300  (isolation #30)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:23 pm

In retrospect, I believe bill clinton should have resigned.
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Post Post #19303  (isolation #31)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:27 pm

In post 19302, YellowSnow wrote:Or maybe there's a valid viewpoint that things like Taxes, supporting the military, abortion, and gun control are valid issues to vote on?


All of these are valid issues to vote on.

If a person is supporting a racist party, that still makes them racist-adjacent.

And they can decide for themselves if that matters to them.

Edit: This started with me saying that non-bigoted republicans stomach a lot of bigotry in order to support policies they agree with.

Here you're saying that non-bigoted republicans are voting republican to support policies they agree with.

And we have both stated that we believe Donald Trump, current head of the Republican party, is a racist.

So where is our disagreement, exactly?
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Post Post #19306  (isolation #32)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:33 pm

In post 19305, YellowSnow wrote:I think the right would argue that they're not a "racist party"

If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck and it supports racist policies like a duck

it's probably a duck

Edit: and if all of the organized hate groups in the country support that duck...
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Post Post #19310  (isolation #33)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:57 pm

In post 19310, T-Bone wrote:I'd really like to get to the bottom as to why YellowSnow thinks that very popular proposals from the left are unpopular. I'm interested in why he thinks that.


I can't speak for YS, but I listen to a lot of conservative talk radio and read a lot of alt-right media for reasons that... defy explanation

and they push the silent majority narrative on this stuff all the time
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Post Post #19313  (isolation #34)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:04 pm

In post 19309, Psyche wrote:even if it’s not the racist party it for sure is the racists’ party

I can get on board with this
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Post Post #19317  (isolation #35)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:27 pm

In post 19317, Untrod Tripod wrote:The trick that conservatives have pulled over the last 40 years is convincing themselves and others that being in support of a racist system is okay as long as you aren't saying the n-word.


I have a theory that all of the anger against PC culture stems from people who never agreed that saying the n-word was wrong in the first place and felt oppressed by a culture that demonized its use by white people.

I have zero evidence to back this up, but it feels true.
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Post Post #19336  (isolation #36)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:52 pm

In post 19331, YellowSnow wrote:CNN/NBC/CBS etc...

https://www.statista.com/statistics/860 ... l-leaning/


Do you have a $50/month subscription to statista?
because I smashed hard into a pay wall trying to see what you were referencing. Can you quote the stats here? I'm not going to buy a sub..
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Post Post #19338  (isolation #37)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:55 pm

ughhh my wapo sub is lapsed, too and I'm out of free articles for the month.

why don't you just quote from the statista page that you referenced?
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Post Post #19360  (isolation #38)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:20 pm

In post 19350, T-Bone wrote:When they are just explained as policy, they are popular in suburban and rural areas too. Taxing the rich more is hugely popular with Republicans. It polls at 70% with them alone. (with Dems and independents, that number is above 90%).

source?
I do not believe this is accurate.
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Post Post #19361  (isolation #39)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:22 pm

In post 19352, AniX wrote:What is a non-racist conservative position?

gun rights
defense spending
neo-con democracy spreading
anti-porn lobby (i know, we've forgotten this was a thing but it was a REALLY BiG thing)
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Post Post #19363  (isolation #40)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:27 pm

im saying those conservative policy positions aren't racist

edit: although I guess you could make an argument that democracy spreading is islamaphobic

but i really think it's rooted 100% in greed
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Post Post #19366  (isolation #41)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:29 pm

In post 19366, AniX wrote:
In post 19362, u r a person 2 wrote:
In post 19352, AniX wrote:What is a non-racist conservative position?

gun rights
defense spending
neo-con democracy spreading
anti-porn lobby (i know, we've forgotten this was a thing but it was a REALLY BiG thing)


Current defense spending and neo-con democracy spreading at any point in America's history is DEFINITELY racist.

I don't feel a need to defend those positions, so let's just go with

gun rights
anti-porn lobby
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Post Post #19371  (isolation #42)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:34 pm

In post 19365, T-Bone wrote:https://news.gallup.com/poll/1714/taxes.aspx

Although this page on Gallup does not break down demographics.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fox-ne ... c-spending

Also I figure I would use Fox News to eliminate liberal bias, but generally all polling outlets find the same results.


the gallup poll finds that 62% of the population thinks the wealthy are paying too little in taxes

and from the fox one,

"At the same time, there is broad support for increasing taxes on the wealthiest families. Voters support tax increases on families making over $10 million annually by a 46-point margin (70 percent favor-24 percent oppose), and support a hike on those making over $1 million by 36 points (65-29 percent)."

so i think we can say that the population as a whole is pro raising taxes on the rich, but im not sure we can say that either 70% of republicans agree or that 90% of democrats agree.

unless I'm missing something?
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Post Post #19373  (isolation #43)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:36 pm

In post 19371, theplague42 wrote:In post 19367, u r a person 2 wrote:
anti-porn lobby

"Family values" used to be racist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-miscegenation_laws


okay, you kicked the crap out of that straw man

because I was talking about porn, and you're citing interracial marriage

"family values" has obviously been used for bigoted purposes. Closest to home for me are anti-sodomy laws

but as far as I can tell, everyone masturbates
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Post Post #19375  (isolation #44)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:38 pm

In post 19368, theplague42 wrote:
In post 19367, u r a person 2 wrote:gun rights

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulford_Act

CONSERVATIVE SAVIOR RONALD FUCKING REAGAN wrote:Governor Ronald Reagan, who was coincidentally present on the capitol lawn when the protesters arrived, later commented that he saw "no reason why on the street today a citizen should be carrying loaded weapons" and that guns were a "ridiculous way to solve problems that have to be solved among people of good will."


Okay, so I'm seeing an argument for gun control as racist

but where exactly is the argument that gun rights is racist?
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Post Post #19377  (isolation #45)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:39 pm

In post 19373, AniX wrote:And anti-porn isn't even a purely conservative position. There is at least as much opposition to it on the left.


This might be true today, but it is a perverted *snicker* understanding of the fight over porn that began with magazines, moved onto vhs, and ended with the birth of the internet.
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Post Post #19384  (isolation #46)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:44 pm

In post 19379, theplague42 wrote:
In post 19376, u r a person 2 wrote:Okay, so I'm seeing an argument for gun control as racist

but where exactly is the argument that gun rights is racist?

Because it's not about "gun rights" or "gun control." It's about how gun rights are the most important thing in the world until black people have the guns.


So, in NYC the biggest complaint against the gun lobby is that they fight for the loopholes that facilitate the supply of guns into the city, undercutting NY state and municipal gun control efforts.

The concern is over guns that are going to majority-minority communities.

There is obviously a monetary incentive for gun manufacturers to protect these loopholes, but this entire sub-issue of gun rights stands in clear contradiction to your argument.
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Post Post #19386  (isolation #47)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:46 pm

In post 19382, theplague42 wrote:I don't want to keep arguing cause I think we agree on the broader point.

my broader point is that the left (of which I am a member) undercuts itself when it calls EVERY conservative issue racist. They're not all racist, just like every post from scum isn't scummy.
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Post Post #19387  (isolation #48)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:48 pm

In post 19386, YellowSnow wrote:
In post 19384, theplague42 wrote:
In post 19381, YellowSnow wrote:Don't you think the argument could be made that blacks are more violent with firearms than whites(especially with gang violence).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... 83d9a78ff7

gun control doesn't stop the criminals though so why bother passing it


I'm in favor of strict gun control(police/military only for all firearms).


You're pretty liberal
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Post Post #19402  (isolation #49)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:59 pm

In post 19396, rb wrote:what's the best that "u r a person 2" isn't from the united states

any takers?


born in NYC, grew up in NJ, lived in Colorado, Ohio, and Texas at different times, and am currently in Minnesota

edit: also lived in New Hampshire and upstate NY while going to school
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Post Post #19410  (isolation #50)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:11 pm

In post 19408, Creature wrote:
In post 19404, theplague42 wrote:
In post 19402, Creature wrote:We're talking about morality and I have read about it.

Executing people is a moral duty?

If someone brutally murdered an entire family, yes, it's definitely a moral duty. Simply giving them a fair lifetime at prison is like treating their victims as if they were low value.


I think I'd be fine with capital punishment if such a high rate of people on death row didn't keep turning up innocent years after the trial
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Post Post #19413  (isolation #51)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 pm

In post 19394, rb wrote:well i think they're definitely racist given the cultural context that issues in the US take place under, but that bringing up that they're racist does indeed undercut the plain idiocy of them and creates blowback from ignorant 'centrists' who obsess more over whether or not the left is giving stupid things the correct label of stupid, rather than focusing on the fact that, "yes that is very stupid"


i agree with the second half of this, for the most part
tbh when im pulling the porn fight from the 1980s and earlier to make my case that not all republican policy is racist, you know I'm not standing on the surest ground.
it's just not a good look to call 100% of ideas from 45% of the country bigoted even if they are
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Post Post #19415  (isolation #52)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:37 pm

In post 19415, Creature wrote:I think 100% of the people have some sort of preconception and concentrating it into a political side is just pretty bogus.

A case has been made that some, or all, republican party policy stances are rooted in racism.
If this is a "both sides do it" situation, then what are the racist Democrat policy stances?
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Post Post #19422  (isolation #53)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:53 pm

In post 19419, Creature wrote:Well, I'm not skilled enough to find subtle racism in policies, but I'm pretty sure victimizing minorities (Complex of Pity) is unconscious racism.


Complex of Pity is not a term I'm familiar with, so I want to clarify. Is this the idea?

>Liberals identified that economic/societal/whatever outcomes for minorities were lower on average than for white men
>Liberals blame these outcomes not on the minorities themselves, but on the system under which we all live
>Liberals raise awareness of these issues, causing minority communities to see themselves as victims.
>This results in minority communities that are unable to improve their own lots because their agency has been stripped of them by way of being called a victim
>This is racist because if liberals really believed that minorities were equally capable they wouldn't feel the need to intervene

Am I getting the gist of it? I don't want to argue over something I don't understand.
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Post Post #19426  (isolation #54)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:07 pm

In post 19424, Creature wrote:Let's say that if someone pitied me for being Latin American with lower wage than the average American I would feel slightly offended because I feel like I'm able myself.

So let me try again

Feeling sorry for someone because the circumstances of their birth (being born a minority) have a negative average impact on the economic outcome that person can expect to have in their life is racist because it acknowledges that some people have a harder path than others to reach the same place?

p.edit okay bye creature. IF this is what you're saying, I fail to see the logic. In fact, extrapolating this thought process to its logical end leads to some pretty messed up conclusions

things like,
building ramps for people in wheel chairs is ableist
putting braille on signs is ableist
(the walking, seeing culture we have makes success more difficult for them, but we shouldn't hurt their feelings by bringing it up or trying to mitigate it)

edit: and before someone says that im comparing the color of one's skin to a disability, stop and read.
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Post Post #19430  (isolation #55)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:12 pm

In post 19428, Creature wrote:
In post 19427, u r a person 2 wrote:things like,
building ramps for people in wheel chairs is ableist
putting braille on signs is ableist

but political correctness isn't.

i don't understand what you're trying to say here
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Post Post #19432  (isolation #56)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:16 pm

In post 19430, Creature wrote:I think some people just love how they are and they hate dragging someone down for them.

got it.

some minorities enjoy being oppressed in our society, and it's racist to try and mitigate the oppression of any minorities as a result.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
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Post Post #19435  (isolation #57)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:19 pm

In post 19434, Ginngie wrote:what even is being politically correct

It's literally just being cognizant of the feelings of others and putting in the minimal effort necessary to not stomp all over those feelings with jackboots
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Post Post #19439  (isolation #58)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:26 pm

In post 19437, Creature wrote:
In post 19433, u r a person 2 wrote:got it.

some minorities enjoy being oppressed in our society, and it's racist to try and mitigate the oppression of any minorities as a result.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

The "oppressed" word is wrong.

I have atleast one thing that would make me a minority, yet I don't feel oppressed because of it. Like, I don't feel like accepting something exclusive for my condition.

some minorities enjoy being discriminated against in our society, and it's racist to try and mitigate the discrimination of any minorities as a result.

how's this, creature?

p.edit
@creature Mate, there is a long and fruitful discussion on whether or not specific conservative policies are rooted in racism over the last few pages. I asked if you could come up with one liberal policy rooted in racism and you came up way short.
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Post Post #19440  (isolation #59)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:29 pm

In post 19440, u r a person 2 wrote:p.edit
@creature Mate, there is a long and fruitful discussion on whether or not specific conservative policies are rooted in racism over the last few pages. I asked if you could come up with one liberal policy rooted in racism and you came up way short.


and remember, I asked that question because you basically said, "well both sides do it"
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Post Post #19444  (isolation #60)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:37 pm

In post 19443, Creature wrote:Also, if you pity someone, aren't you recognizing that person is inferior?

I'd pity a man whose wife washed his pants with the winning lotto ticket still inside them.
I'd pity the man who drew the short straw on chore duty and had to clean the barracks latrine
I'd pity the man who isn't going to get his pension because the ceo embezzled from the pension fund

like the list goes on, but no, pitying someone doesn't mean I think they are inferior.

pity - n. the feeling of sorrow and compassion caused by the suffering and misfortunes of others.
a cause for regret or disappointment.
feel sorrow for the misfortunes of.
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Post Post #19445  (isolation #61)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:38 pm

In post 19444, Creature wrote:I know it's bad to be called bigoted on something so trivial like that, I feel the same rn. I also recognize that you must genuinely feel compassion for said people, but it still requires you to judge them.

no it doesn't. It really, and simply, does not.
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Post Post #19446  (isolation #62)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:55 pm

I think the word you're looking for is "patronize"

v. treat in a way that is apparently kind or helpful but that betrays a feeling of superiority.

and I don't agree that liberal policies are patronizing, but I'm pretty done here for the day
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Post Post #19449  (isolation #63)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:12 pm

In post 19448, Creature wrote:
In post 19447, u r a person 2 wrote:I'm pretty done here for the day

Me too.

Still I don't think pointing an idea has been initially rooted from bigotry is going to change someone's mind.

No one will cease being Christian because it was originally bigoted. No one will change their mind about the goods of human society because it started from racism.

It's also pretty wrong to call them bigoted (or morally inferior) just because of the above.


yeah, we're going to have to agree to disagree. I'm not getting dragged into an argument over religion.

Pushing for or supporting morally reprehensible policies is morally reprehensible. Full stop.
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Post Post #19452  (isolation #64)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:18 pm

In post 19451, schadd_ wrote:
In post 19449, Kublai Khan wrote:BTW, nice last few pages. Very interesting to read and I'm sorry I wasn't around to participate. It's nice to have you around.

i modded their newbie game you guys are all welcome

thanks for the compliment and for the well modded game ;P
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Post Post #19462  (isolation #65)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:39 pm

https://qz.com/1012692/this-is-what-rep ... n-america/

This article has some interesting thoughts about what reparations might look like. I'm not endorsing the mechanism or the amount, but I think these ideas are an interesting starting point if ya'll actually want to have this discussion

Direct stakeholder funds.
First-time homebuyer programs.
Tuition-free higher education.
Endowments for historical and cultural institutions.
National history education programs.
Historical monuments and markers.
Roots journeys to Africa.
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Post Post #19463  (isolation #66)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:40 pm

In post 19460, Kublai Khan wrote:
In post 19458, YellowSnow wrote:My point is what would be fair reparation?

40 acres and a mule.

where would we find 37 million mules, tho
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Post Post #19464  (isolation #67)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:43 pm

also (40acres)(37,000,000 african americans)=1.48 billion acres

The lower 48 states have a total of roughly 1.9 billion acres

so that would be 78% of the lower 48

I think we'll probably need a more modern solution
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Post Post #19466  (isolation #68)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:06 pm

The total value of the land that makes up the contiguous United States was $23 trillion dollars in 2009

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2015/04/ ... es/389862/

putting that in perspective
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Post Post #19468  (isolation #69)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:09 pm

(still being silly)
so 1.7/23 is roughly 7%
and texas is almost exactly 7% of the usa

would texas be acceptable reparations?
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Post Post #19472  (isolation #70)  » Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:50 pm

In post 19472, shaft.ed wrote:so basically if the GI bill had actually just been applied to them as well

yeah, i mean, I think they're going for a politically acceptable (read: white people might actually do it) proposal that would actually help narrow the wealth gap between african americans and white americans
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Post Post #19501  (isolation #71)  » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:21 pm

In post 19500, rb wrote:inflation is also higher than at any point in your lifetime

It's not tho

https://www.bls.gov/charts/consumer-price-index/consumer-price-index-by-category-line-chart.htm
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Post Post #19502  (isolation #72)  » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:19 pm

nancy seems to be going back and forth between trying to hide her disgust and amusement lol

edit: oh it might be because he didn't let her introduce him hmm at least in part
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Post Post #19505  (isolation #73)  » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:15 am

In post 19504, rb wrote:seems we have conflicting studies

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answer ... rs-ago.asp

and i'm pretty sure this one is more accurate RE: cost of living

EDIT: oh i see, you're talking about how in 1980 there was a recession so at some point, there was technically a worse ratio than there is today. seems like a bad faith way of interpreting my choice of words to look at one exceptional incident, but i'll admit fault for how it was worded (even though assuming exceptionalism as the rule is absurd)

what isn't wrong is to say that there's still an obvious trend over the last two decades for the trend to get worse and worse.


I have to respectfully disagree with you here. If you take a look at my source, it's the BLS data upon which your source was based, and whose data is considered very reliable, as far as state supplied data goes.

YS actually undersold his point. Inflation was significantly higher than it is now between approximately 1968 and the early 1980s. It wasn't an anomaly. Additionally, the major concern in the last decade has been deflation, not inflation, as a result of the great recession. inflation has been nearly flat, and sometimes negative, since George w bush was president, and there is little to indicate that inflation will become a concern again in the near future
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Post Post #19506  (isolation #74)  » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:17 am

And it wasn't just the 70s and 80s. Inflation was higher than it is today for much of the last 20 years

Edit: And this is a time where, like I said, the concern has actually been deflation. This illustrates just how low our current inflation rate is.
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Post Post #19508  (isolation #75)  » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:17 am

if you want to make the point that cost of living is significantly higher after adjusting for inflation as measured in this instance by the CPI - and it may be - the onus is on you to find data to back that up and price differentials for a few specific assets and products is not that.

and you can be snarky and sigh, and shade people for cherry picking data - which isn't what happened - but you made a glib and factually inaccurate comment to discredit YS's personal experience and have still yet to actually demonstrate your argument.

The question isn't even that interesting. The low inflation rate is one of the few saving graces taking the sting out of the declining or stagnant real wages over the past few decades.


also your source is glorified clickbait. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Post Post #19509  (isolation #76)  » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:23 am

ask me how i really feel
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Post Post #19510  (isolation #77)  » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:32 am

In post 19509, u r a person 2 wrote:The question isn't even that interesting. The low inflation rate is one of the few saving graces taking the sting out of the declining or stagnant real wages over the past few decades.

upon further consideration, this is actually completely wrong.

A high inflation rate would actually be more beneficial to the working and middle classes since it would diminish the real value of their debt
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Post Post #19512  (isolation #78)  » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:09 am

Yes, it has the change in price for housing and gas. and that's it. It doesn't account for the ever decreasing cost of electricity, appliances, etc. I don't know if you're wrong or right in your overarching statement, but neither do you if this is what you're going on.

and it's talking average price for housing, which guarantees that the increase is inflated unless you're purchasing housing inside a major city like NY, Seattle, or LA, which shows that the author wasn't even really trying to make the argument in good faith. median would have been a better stat to use to relate it to the population at large.

The source isn't a thorough examination of what you're talking about - it's barely even a cursory glance.
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Post Post #19513  (isolation #79)  » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:19 am

And by the way, CPI is a solid attempt at answering exactly what you're asking - "what's the real cost of living today, compared to yesterday?"
That's why it's measured for a large basket of goods. And if you go back to the original source, you can actually click through all of the different types of goods to see how their price is changing. The default line is the combination of every item in that basket.

It's a hard problem because individual people buy different goods at different prices from different vendors along with a host of other complexities. But it is a pretty good metric, and that's why we use it.

It has some issues - for instance, a computer today costs about the same amount as a computer ten years ago, but it's dramatically higher quality. The CPI calls this a decrease in price because you can buy more processing power for the same money. So in this case, your cost of living won't go down as a result, but your quality of life has gone up significantly.

New technologies also present a problem. Should the cost of an iphone go into your calculation of cost of living? It might seem necessary to live, but it isn't. And it didn't exist 20 years ago to be accounted for. So does the cost of living increase when a new product hits the market?

Your question isn't simple. And simply can't negate his individual circumstance - a circumstance in which he obviously feels richer today than he has in the past - based on the average cost of fuel and home prices.
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Post Post #19515  (isolation #80)  » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:37 am

or what about the decrease in cost of living from items that you no longer buy?
things like cd players, vhs tapes, watches, maps, day planners, rolodexes, etc. The list goes on and on.

It's complicated.

p.s. it has 2 sources. It sources BLS data and it sources Bureau of census data. and that's fucking it. stop bullshitting

as to the point. I started off just wanting to correct your mistake so that I wouldn't be reading through a discussion based in incorrect data

but you responded arrogantly (and wrongly), and frankly this has been a great set of breaks in the all-nighter I'm pulling, so I dug in.
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Post Post #19517  (isolation #81)  » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:42 am

Inflation is the positive change in price of goods and services, or the negative change in the purchasing power of money.

I think that you're thinking of the connection between interest rates and inflation. Interest rates follow two things
1) Fed funds rate - this is the cost of borrowing by banks from the fed. So when the fed is charging 1%, banks can lend at 1.5% and make a profit. When the fed is charging 5%, banks have to lend at 5.5% to make a profit. The theory goes that the less banks have to charge for loans, the more people will take out those loans. This increases the total money supply, which increases prices. Higher prices is higher inflation. So, when the fed lowers the fed funds rate, it stokes inflation, and when the fed increases the fed funds rate, it dampens inflation.
2) Inflation. If the costs of goods is going up by 10% a year, and I am lending someone 100 bucks, I need that person to pay 10% interest in order for me to keep my real net value constant, and more than that to make a real profit. If I can't find a borrower at that rate, I'm incentivized to purchase an asset that will increase in value with inflation, keeping my total value constant. Thus, lending rates will follow inflation

It's kind of circular, and I'm not an economist, but if you really want to get deep into a technical discussion of inflation, it requires an understanding of what the supply of money is. I'm not capable of doing that justice, so to anyone interested, enjoy wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_sup ... _inflation

and the other side of the argument, which believes that money supply is somewhat irrelevant
https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/ ... -is-money/
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/23/opin ... -derp.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/06/opin ... nkish.html not as relevant but discusses the role expected inflation has on actual inflation

https://www.albany.edu/~bd445/Economics ... lation.pdf a better link for explaining expected inflation

edit:
In post 19517, shaft.ed wrote:The Fed is quite aggressive at controlling inflation now because it is another way that dynastic wealth can be lost as the value of their money piles naturally falls over time if inflation remains high

cynical but true lolol
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Post Post #19519  (isolation #82)  » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:37 am

In post 19519, rb wrote:https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cost-of-living-2018-increasing-at-fastest-rate-in-10-years/

i mean, there's dozens of articles like this from a cursory google search with many cities that have costs of living increasing 10-20% in the span of one year

but in the 1970s the gap was bigger so i guess we can obsess over that and act like it's not a problem now or something?


Okay, I'm going to disengage. You just quoted an article that is referencing the exact data set that I put forth at the start of this - again.

And that data still shows that

1) Inflation has been low for a prolonged period of time, and was actually 0 or negative at different points over the last dozen or so years
2) the inflation rate is not higher now than it was at any point in the last ten years (it's no longer july, there is new data), and there is no reason to expect it to rise precipitously any time in the near future.

Edit: And that article is talking about the highest rate of increase, meaning that the inflation rate went up faster than any point in 10 years. The inflation rate itself was still lower than a period in 2011. Additionally, it spiked downwards in the six months since the article.
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Post Post #19521  (isolation #83)  » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:54 am

the cpi is a cost of living index. the goal of it is to measure increases in the cost of living. that's what it is.

so from that we can see that the cost of living is not going up at a tremendous rate

and while I do agree that real wages are stagnant, unless you're seeing people getting pay cuts, they are at most marginally worse off than they were 15 years ago because of the intersection of inflation and wages because there simply has not been much increase in the cost of living.
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Post Post #19522  (isolation #84)  » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:57 am

gosh darn i can't even stop
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Post Post #19532  (isolation #85)  » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:44 pm

if the givens are

housing prices in cities are getting out of control and
housing prices outside of cities aren't

maybe we need to invest a ton in mass transit systems to facilitate sprawl
i know new york could use a new train tunnel or 3
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Post Post #19534  (isolation #86)  » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:51 pm

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Post Post #19536  (isolation #87)  » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:06 pm

I didn't know nashville had a great mass transit system. neat

interesting survey of the direction of conservative thinking

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/06/opin ... crats.html
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Post Post #19539  (isolation #88)  » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:14 pm

In post 19538, PenguinPower wrote:
In post 19537, u r a person 2 wrote:I didn't know nashville had a great mass transit system. neat


It doesn't. At all. Despite heavily needing one given the influx of jobs/people and the increase is housing prices/rent.

We tried to get one up and going, but then the mayor slept with her bodyguard and it died.

oooh i misunderstood where the problem was. I thought you meant that designing mt systems was hard. on the same page now
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Post Post #19545  (isolation #89)  » Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:54 am

correct, but that's accounted for when I say that "real" wages are stagnant, which implies adjustment for inflation. There is also no data to show that nominal wages are stagnant. people are getting paid more now than 20 years ago.
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Post Post #19547  (isolation #90)  » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:41 am

edit: nm whatever you win I'm an asshole
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Post Post #19563  (isolation #91)  » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:37 am

In post 19561, BROseidon wrote:Alternatively: build taller

SF's insane housing costs are because 75% of SF's area for housing is zoned for single-family homes

yeah but those zoning laws perpetuate higher housing costs, which make the municipal tax payers/voters more wealthy (at least on paper)

Good luck untangling that gordian knot. let's just build fast trains
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Post Post #19579  (isolation #92)  » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:15 pm

this is what it always boils down to

They should be appreciative of the scraps we drop from the table because we could be beating them instead.

And if they don't like the scraps, it's up to them to find a solution that doesn't put us out because slavery and racism were their faults in the first place.

/s
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Post Post #19580  (isolation #93)  » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:16 pm

Where are all the compromise solutions being proposed by white people?

Why is the onus on the repressed to solve the problem and smile while doing it?
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Post Post #19581  (isolation #94)  » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:17 pm

Like holy shit

I can't imagine the anger of a teenage black man in this country. I'd probably be burning down banks
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Post Post #19583  (isolation #95)  » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:25 pm

dignity, respect, and a fair shot at the american dream

that's the goal

it's been the goal for as long as there has been a goal
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Post Post #19585  (isolation #96)  » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:26 pm

Why is it on them to come up with a solution? They are not in power. They are not the benefactors of generations of injustice. Why is the white power structure unaccountable?

And how do you know what would or would not change anything? By saying "there can be no solution" you're relieving yourself of the responsibility of working towards a solution.
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Post Post #19589  (isolation #97)  » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:33 pm

The mission of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) is to secure the political, educational, social, and economic equality of rights in order to eliminate race-based discrimination and ensure the health and well-being of all persons.



Vision Statement
The vision of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People is to ensure a society in which all individuals have equal rights without discrimination based on race.

Objectives
The following statement of objectives is found on the first page of the NAACP Constitution – the principal objectives of the Association shall be:

To ensure the political, educational, social, and economic equality of all citizens
To achieve equality of rights and eliminate race prejudice among the citizens of the United States
To remove all barriers of racial discrimination through democratic processes
To seek enactment and enforcement of federal, state, and local laws securing civil rights
To inform the public of the adverse effects of racial discrimination and to seek its elimination
To educate persons as to their constitutional rights and to take all lawful action to secure the exercise thereof, and to take any other lawful action in furtherance of these objectives, consistent with the NAACP’s Articles of Incorporation and this Constitution.

https://www.naacp.org/about-us/ this wasn't hard to find
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Post Post #19606  (isolation #98)  » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:12 pm

In post 19602, YellowSnow wrote:Playing the national anthem does not equate to "everything is hunkydory".

If you don't want to stand then don't but if you are more worried about political statements than offending your fanbase then you need to prepared to possibly not have a job.

this is just another way of saying "They should be grateful. And if they aren't sufficiently docile, beat 'em down."

I bet - tell me if I'm wrong - that you don't think Roseanne should have been removed from her show for speaking her mind
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Post Post #19609  (isolation #99)  » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:29 pm

"You deplore the demonstrations taking place in Birmingham. But your statement, I am sorry to say, fails to express a similar concern for the conditions that brought about the demonstrations. I am sure that none of you would want to rest content with the superficial kind of social analysis that deals merely with effects and does not grapple with underlying causes. It is unfortunate that demonstrations are taking place in Birmingham, but it is even more unfortunate that the city's white power structure left the Negro community with no alternative."

I think you should read this in full, YellowSnow
Spoiler:
16 April 1963
My Dear Fellow Clergymen:
While confined here in the Birmingham city jail, I came across your recent statement calling my present activities "unwise and untimely." Seldom do I pause to answer criticism of my work and ideas. If I sought to answer all the criticisms that cross my desk, my secretaries would have little time for anything other than such correspondence in the course of the day, and I would have no time for constructive work. But since I feel that you are men of genuine good will and that your criticisms are sincerely set forth, I want to try to answer your statement in what I hope will be patient and reasonable terms.

I think I should indicate why I am here in Birmingham, since you have been influenced by the view which argues against "outsiders coming in." I have the honor of serving as president of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, an organization operating in every southern state, with headquarters in Atlanta, Georgia. We have some eighty five affiliated organizations across the South, and one of them is the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights. Frequently we share staff, educational and financial resources with our affiliates. Several months ago the affiliate here in Birmingham asked us to be on call to engage in a nonviolent direct action program if such were deemed necessary. We readily consented, and when the hour came we lived up to our promise. So I, along with several members of my staff, am here because I was invited here. I am here because I have organizational ties here.

But more basically, I am in Birmingham because injustice is here. Just as the prophets of the eighth century B.C. left their villages and carried their "thus saith the Lord" far beyond the boundaries of their home towns, and just as the Apostle Paul left his village of Tarsus and carried the gospel of Jesus Christ to the far corners of the Greco Roman world, so am I compelled to carry the gospel of freedom beyond my own home town. Like Paul, I must constantly respond to the Macedonian call for aid.

Moreover, I am cognizant of the interrelatedness of all communities and states. I cannot sit idly by in Atlanta and not be concerned about what happens in Birmingham. Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. Never again can we afford to live with the narrow, provincial "outside agitator" idea. Anyone who lives inside the United States can never be considered an outsider anywhere within its bounds.

You deplore the demonstrations taking place in Birmingham. But your statement, I am sorry to say, fails to express a similar concern for the conditions that brought about the demonstrations. I am sure that none of you would want to rest content with the superficial kind of social analysis that deals merely with effects and does not grapple with underlying causes. It is unfortunate that demonstrations are taking place in Birmingham, but it is even more unfortunate that the city's white power structure left the Negro community with no alternative.

In any nonviolent campaign there are four basic steps: collection of the facts to determine whether injustices exist; negotiation; self purification; and direct action. We have gone through all these steps in Birmingham. There can be no gainsaying the fact that racial injustice engulfs this community. Birmingham is probably the most thoroughly segregated city in the United States. Its ugly record of brutality is widely known. Negroes have experienced grossly unjust treatment in the courts. There have been more unsolved bombings of Negro homes and churches in Birmingham than in any other city in the nation. These are the hard, brutal facts of the case. On the basis of these conditions, Negro leaders sought to negotiate with the city fathers. But the latter consistently refused to engage in good faith negotiation.

Then, last September, came the opportunity to talk with leaders of Birmingham's economic community. In the course of the negotiations, certain promises were made by the merchants--for example, to remove the stores' humiliating racial signs. On the basis of these promises, the Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth and the leaders of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights agreed to a moratorium on all demonstrations. As the weeks and months went by, we realized that we were the victims of a broken promise. A few signs, briefly removed, returned; the others remained. As in so many past experiences, our hopes had been blasted, and the shadow of deep disappointment settled upon us. We had no alternative except to prepare for direct action, whereby we would present our very bodies as a means of laying our case before the conscience of the local and the national community. Mindful of the difficulties involved, we decided to undertake a process of self purification. We began a series of workshops on nonviolence, and we repeatedly asked ourselves: "Are you able to accept blows without retaliating?" "Are you able to endure the ordeal of jail?" We decided to schedule our direct action program for the Easter season, realizing that except for Christmas, this is the main shopping period of the year. Knowing that a strong economic-withdrawal program would be the by product of direct action, we felt that this would be the best time to bring pressure to bear on the merchants for the needed change.

Then it occurred to us that Birmingham's mayoral election was coming up in March, and we speedily decided to postpone action until after election day. When we discovered that the Commissioner of Public Safety, Eugene "Bull" Connor, had piled up enough votes to be in the run off, we decided again to postpone action until the day after the run off so that the demonstrations could not be used to cloud the issues. Like many others, we waited to see Mr. Connor defeated, and to this end we endured postponement after postponement. Having aided in this community need, we felt that our direct action program could be delayed no longer.

You may well ask: "Why direct action? Why sit ins, marches and so forth? Isn't negotiation a better path?" You are quite right in calling for negotiation. Indeed, this is the very purpose of direct action. Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, so must we see the need for nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood. The purpose of our direct action program is to create a situation so crisis packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation. I therefore concur with you in your call for negotiation. Too long has our beloved Southland been bogged down in a tragic effort to live in monologue rather than dialogue.

One of the basic points in your statement is that the action that I and my associates have taken in Birmingham is untimely. Some have asked: "Why didn't you give the new city administration time to act?" The only answer that I can give to this query is that the new Birmingham administration must be prodded about as much as the outgoing one, before it will act. We are sadly mistaken if we feel that the election of Albert Boutwell as mayor will bring the millennium to Birmingham. While Mr. Boutwell is a much more gentle person than Mr. Connor, they are both segregationists, dedicated to maintenance of the status quo. I have hope that Mr. Boutwell will be reasonable enough to see the futility of massive resistance to desegregation. But he will not see this without pressure from devotees of civil rights. My friends, I must say to you that we have not made a single gain in civil rights without determined legal and nonviolent pressure. Lamentably, it is an historical fact that privileged groups seldom give up their privileges voluntarily. Individuals may see the moral light and voluntarily give up their unjust posture; but, as Reinhold Niebuhr has reminded us, groups tend to be more immoral than individuals.

We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct action campaign that was "well timed" in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the word "Wait!" It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This "Wait" has almost always meant "Never." We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that "justice too long delayed is justice denied."

We have waited for more than 340 years for our constitutional and God given rights. The nations of Asia and Africa are moving with jetlike speed toward gaining political independence, but we still creep at horse and buggy pace toward gaining a cup of coffee at a lunch counter. Perhaps it is easy for those who have never felt the stinging darts of segregation to say, "Wait." But when you have seen vicious mobs lynch your mothers and fathers at will and drown your sisters and brothers at whim; when you have seen hate filled policemen curse, kick and even kill your black brothers and sisters; when you see the vast majority of your twenty million Negro brothers smothering in an airtight cage of poverty in the midst of an affluent society; when you suddenly find your tongue twisted and your speech stammering as you seek to explain to your six year old daughter why she can't go to the public amusement park that has just been advertised on television, and see tears welling up in her eyes when she is told that Funtown is closed to colored children, and see ominous clouds of inferiority beginning to form in her little mental sky, and see her beginning to distort her personality by developing an unconscious bitterness toward white people; when you have to concoct an answer for a five year old son who is asking: "Daddy, why do white people treat colored people so mean?"; when you take a cross county drive and find it necessary to sleep night after night in the uncomfortable corners of your automobile because no motel will accept you; when you are humiliated day in and day out by nagging signs reading "white" and "colored"; when your first name becomes "[removed]," your middle name becomes "boy" (however old you are) and your last name becomes "John," and your wife and mother are never given the respected title "Mrs."; when you are harried by day and haunted by night by the fact that you are a Negro, living constantly at tiptoe stance, never quite knowing what to expect next, and are plagued with inner fears and outer resentments; when you are forever fighting a degenerating sense of "nobodiness"--then you will understand why we find it difficult to wait. There comes a time when the cup of endurance runs over, and men are no longer willing to be plunged into the abyss of despair. I hope, sirs, you can understand our legitimate and unavoidable impatience. You express a great deal of anxiety over our willingness to break laws. This is certainly a legitimate concern. Since we so diligently urge people to obey the Supreme Court's decision of 1954 outlawing segregation in the public schools, at first glance it may seem rather paradoxical for us consciously to break laws. One may well ask: "How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?" The answer lies in the fact that there are two types of laws: just and unjust. I would be the first to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that "an unjust law is no law at all."

Now, what is the difference between the two? How does one determine whether a law is just or unjust? A just law is a man made code that squares with the moral law or the law of God. An unjust law is a code that is out of harmony with the moral law. To put it in the terms of St. Thomas Aquinas: An unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal law and natural law. Any law that uplifts human personality is just. Any law that degrades human personality is unjust. All segregation statutes are unjust because segregation distorts the soul and damages the personality. It gives the segregator a false sense of superiority and the segregated a false sense of inferiority. Segregation, to use the terminology of the Jewish philosopher Martin Buber, substitutes an "I it" relationship for an "I thou" relationship and ends up relegating persons to the status of things. Hence segregation is not only politically, economically and sociologically unsound, it is morally wrong and sinful. Paul Tillich has said that sin is separation. Is not segregation an existential expression of man's tragic separation, his awful estrangement, his terrible sinfulness? Thus it is that I can urge men to obey the 1954 decision of the Supreme Court, for it is morally right; and I can urge them to disobey segregation ordinances, for they are morally wrong.

Let us consider a more concrete example of just and unjust laws. An unjust law is a code that a numerical or power majority group compels a minority group to obey but does not make binding on itself. This is difference made legal. By the same token, a just law is a code that a majority compels a minority to follow and that it is willing to follow itself. This is sameness made legal. Let me give another explanation. A law is unjust if it is inflicted on a minority that, as a result of being denied the right to vote, had no part in enacting or devising the law. Who can say that the legislature of Alabama which set up that state's segregation laws was democratically elected? Throughout Alabama all sorts of devious methods are used to prevent Negroes from becoming registered voters, and there are some counties in which, even though Negroes constitute a majority of the population, not a single Negro is registered. Can any law enacted under such circumstances be considered democratically structured?

Sometimes a law is just on its face and unjust in its application. For instance, I have been arrested on a charge of parading without a permit. Now, there is nothing wrong in having an ordinance which requires a permit for a parade. But such an ordinance becomes unjust when it is used to maintain segregation and to deny citizens the First-Amendment privilege of peaceful assembly and protest.

I hope you are able to see the distinction I am trying to point out. In no sense do I advocate evading or defying the law, as would the rabid segregationist. That would lead to anarchy. One who breaks an unjust law must do so openly, lovingly, and with a willingness to accept the penalty. I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law.

Of course, there is nothing new about this kind of civil disobedience. It was evidenced sublimely in the refusal of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego to obey the laws of Nebuchadnezzar, on the ground that a higher moral law was at stake. It was practiced superbly by the early Christians, who were willing to face hungry lions and the excruciating pain of chopping blocks rather than submit to certain unjust laws of the Roman Empire. To a degree, academic freedom is a reality today because Socrates practiced civil disobedience. In our own nation, the Boston Tea Party represented a massive act of civil disobedience.

We should never forget that everything Adolf Hitler did in Germany was "legal" and everything the Hungarian freedom fighters did in Hungary was "illegal." It was "illegal" to aid and comfort a Jew in Hitler's Germany. Even so, I am sure that, had I lived in Germany at the time, I would have aided and comforted my Jewish brothers. If today I lived in a Communist country where certain principles dear to the Christian faith are suppressed, I would openly advocate disobeying that country's antireligious laws.

I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality. Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured.

In your statement you assert that our actions, even though peaceful, must be condemned because they precipitate violence. But is this a logical assertion? Isn't this like condemning a robbed man because his possession of money precipitated the evil act of robbery? Isn't this like condemning Socrates because his unswerving commitment to truth and his philosophical inquiries precipitated the act by the misguided populace in which they made him drink hemlock? Isn't this like condemning Jesus because his unique God consciousness and never ceasing devotion to God's will precipitated the evil act of crucifixion? We must come to see that, as the federal courts have consistently affirmed, it is wrong to urge an individual to cease his efforts to gain his basic constitutional rights because the quest may precipitate violence. Society must protect the robbed and punish the robber. I had also hoped that the white moderate would reject the myth concerning time in relation to the struggle for freedom. I have just received a letter from a white brother in Texas. He writes: "All Christians know that the colored people will receive equal rights eventually, but it is possible that you are in too great a religious hurry. It has taken Christianity almost two thousand years to accomplish what it has. The teachings of Christ take time to come to earth." Such an attitude stems from a tragic misconception of time, from the strangely irrational notion that there is something in the very flow of time that will inevitably cure all ills. Actually, time itself is neutral; it can be used either destructively or constructively. More and more I feel that the people of ill will have used time much more effectively than have the people of good will. We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the hateful words and actions of the bad people but for the appalling silence of the good people. Human progress never rolls in on wheels of inevitability; it comes through the tireless efforts of men willing to be co workers with God, and without this hard work, time itself becomes an ally of the forces of social stagnation. We must use time creatively, in the knowledge that the time is always ripe to do right. Now is the time to make real the promise of democracy and transform our pending national elegy into a creative psalm of brotherhood. Now is the time to lift our national policy from the quicksand of racial injustice to the solid rock of human dignity.

You speak of our activity in Birmingham as extreme. At first I was rather disappointed that fellow clergymen would see my nonviolent efforts as those of an extremist. I began thinking about the fact that I stand in the middle of two opposing forces in the Negro community. One is a force of complacency, made up in part of Negroes who, as a result of long years of oppression, are so drained of self respect and a sense of "somebodiness" that they have adjusted to segregation; and in part of a few middle-class Negroes who, because of a degree of academic and economic security and because in some ways they profit by segregation, have become insensitive to the problems of the masses. The other force is one of bitterness and hatred, and it comes perilously close to advocating violence. It is expressed in the various black nationalist groups that are springing up across the nation, the largest and best known being Elijah Muhammad's Muslim movement. Nourished by the Negro's frustration over the continued existence of racial discrimination, this movement is made up of people who have lost faith in America, who have absolutely repudiated Christianity, and who have concluded that the white man is an incorrigible "devil."

I have tried to stand between these two forces, saying that we need emulate neither the "do nothingism" of the complacent nor the hatred and despair of the black nationalist. For there is the more excellent way of love and nonviolent protest. I am grateful to God that, through the influence of the Negro church, the way of nonviolence became an integral part of our struggle. If this philosophy had not emerged, by now many streets of the South would, I am convinced, be flowing with blood. And I am further convinced that if our white brothers dismiss as "rabble rousers" and "outside agitators" those of us who employ nonviolent direct action, and if they refuse to support our nonviolent efforts, millions of Negroes will, out of frustration and despair, seek solace and security in black nationalist ideologies--a development that would inevitably lead to a frightening racial nightmare.

Oppressed people cannot remain oppressed forever. The yearning for freedom eventually manifests itself, and that is what has happened to the American Negro. Something within has reminded him of his birthright of freedom, and something without has reminded him that it can be gained. Consciously or unconsciously, he has been caught up by the Zeitgeist, and with his black brothers of Africa and his brown and yellow brothers of Asia, South America and the Caribbean, the United States Negro is moving with a sense of great urgency toward the promised land of racial justice. If one recognizes this vital urge that has engulfed the Negro community, one should readily understand why public demonstrations are taking place. The Negro has many pent up resentments and latent frustrations, and he must release them. So let him march; let him make prayer pilgrimages to the city hall; let him go on freedom rides -and try to understand why he must do so. If his repressed emotions are not released in nonviolent ways, they will seek expression through violence; this is not a threat but a fact of history. So I have not said to my people: "Get rid of your discontent." Rather, I have tried to say that this normal and healthy discontent can be channeled into the creative outlet of nonviolent direct action. And now this approach is being termed extremist. But though I was initially disappointed at being categorized as an extremist, as I continued to think about the matter I gradually gained a measure of satisfaction from the label. Was not Jesus an extremist for love: "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you." Was not Amos an extremist for justice: "Let justice roll down like waters and righteousness like an ever flowing stream." Was not Paul an extremist for the Christian gospel: "I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus." Was not Martin Luther an extremist: "Here I stand; I cannot do otherwise, so help me God." And John Bunyan: "I will stay in jail to the end of my days before I make a butchery of my conscience." And Abraham Lincoln: "This nation cannot survive half slave and half free." And Thomas Jefferson: "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal . . ." So the question is not whether we will be extremists, but what kind of extremists we will be. Will we be extremists for hate or for love? Will we be extremists for the preservation of injustice or for the extension of justice? In that dramatic scene on Calvary's hill three men were crucified. We must never forget that all three were crucified for the same crime--the crime of extremism. Two were extremists for immorality, and thus fell below their environment. The other, Jesus Christ, was an extremist for love, truth and goodness, and thereby rose above his environment. Perhaps the South, the nation and the world are in dire need of creative extremists.

I had hoped that the white moderate would see this need. Perhaps I was too optimistic; perhaps I expected too much. I suppose I should have realized that few members of the oppressor race can understand the deep groans and passionate yearnings of the oppressed race, and still fewer have the vision to see that injustice must be rooted out by strong, persistent and determined action. I am thankful, however, that some of our white brothers in the South have grasped the meaning of this social revolution and committed themselves to it. They are still all too few in quantity, but they are big in quality. Some -such as Ralph McGill, Lillian Smith, Harry Golden, James McBride Dabbs, Ann Braden and Sarah Patton Boyle--have written about our struggle in eloquent and prophetic terms. Others have marched with us down nameless streets of the South. They have languished in filthy, roach infested jails, suffering the abuse and brutality of policemen who view them as "dirty nigger-lovers." Unlike so many of their moderate brothers and sisters, they have recognized the urgency of the moment and sensed the need for powerful "action" antidotes to combat the disease of segregation. Let me take note of my other major disappointment. I have been so greatly disappointed with the white church and its leadership. Of course, there are some notable exceptions. I am not unmindful of the fact that each of you has taken some significant stands on this issue. I commend you, Reverend Stallings, for your Christian stand on this past Sunday, in welcoming Negroes to your worship service on a nonsegregated basis. I commend the Catholic leaders of this state for integrating Spring Hill College several years ago.

But despite these notable exceptions, I must honestly reiterate that I have been disappointed with the church. I do not say this as one of those negative critics who can always find something wrong with the church. I say this as a minister of the gospel, who loves the church; who was nurtured in its bosom; who has been sustained by its spiritual blessings and who will remain true to it as long as the cord of life shall lengthen.

When I was suddenly catapulted into the leadership of the bus protest in Montgomery, Alabama, a few years ago, I felt we would be supported by the white church. I felt that the white ministers, priests and rabbis of the South would be among our strongest allies. Instead, some have been outright opponents, refusing to understand the freedom movement and misrepresenting its leaders; all too many others have been more cautious than courageous and have remained silent behind the anesthetizing security of stained glass windows.

In spite of my shattered dreams, I came to Birmingham with the hope that the white religious leadership of this community would see the justice of our cause and, with deep moral concern, would serve as the channel through which our just grievances could reach the power structure. I had hoped that each of you would understand. But again I have been disappointed.

I have heard numerous southern religious leaders admonish their worshipers to comply with a desegregation decision because it is the law, but I have longed to hear white ministers declare: "Follow this decree because integration is morally right and because the Negro is your brother." In the midst of blatant injustices inflicted upon the Negro, I have watched white churchmen stand on the sideline and mouth pious irrelevancies and sanctimonious trivialities. In the midst of a mighty struggle to rid our nation of racial and economic injustice, I have heard many ministers say: "Those are social issues, with which the gospel has no real concern." And I have watched many churches commit themselves to a completely other worldly religion which makes a strange, un-Biblical distinction between body and soul, between the sacred and the secular.

I have traveled the length and breadth of Alabama, Mississippi and all the other southern states. On sweltering summer days and crisp autumn mornings I have looked at the South's beautiful churches with their lofty spires pointing heavenward. I have beheld the impressive outlines of her massive religious education buildings. Over and over I have found myself asking: "What kind of people worship here? Who is their God? Where were their voices when the lips of Governor Barnett dripped with words of interposition and nullification? Where were they when Governor Wallace gave a clarion call for defiance and hatred? Where were their voices of support when bruised and weary Negro men and women decided to rise from the dark dungeons of complacency to the bright hills of creative protest?"

Yes, these questions are still in my mind. In deep disappointment I have wept over the laxity of the church. But be assured that my tears have been tears of love. There can be no deep disappointment where there is not deep love. Yes, I love the church. How could I do otherwise? I am in the rather unique position of being the son, the grandson and the great grandson of preachers. Yes, I see the church as the body of Christ. But, oh! How we have blemished and scarred that body through social neglect and through fear of being nonconformists.

There was a time when the church was very powerful--in the time when the early Christians rejoiced at being deemed worthy to suffer for what they believed. In those days the church was not merely a thermometer that recorded the ideas and principles of popular opinion; it was a thermostat that transformed the mores of society. Whenever the early Christians entered a town, the people in power became disturbed and immediately sought to convict the Christians for being "disturbers of the peace" and "outside agitators."' But the Christians pressed on, in the conviction that they were "a colony of heaven," called to obey God rather than man. Small in number, they were big in commitment. They were too God-intoxicated to be "astronomically intimidated." By their effort and example they brought an end to such ancient evils as infanticide and gladiatorial contests. Things are different now. So often the contemporary church is a weak, ineffectual voice with an uncertain sound. So often it is an archdefender of the status quo. Far from being disturbed by the presence of the church, the power structure of the average community is consoled by the church's silent--and often even vocal--sanction of things as they are.

But the judgment of God is upon the church as never before. If today's church does not recapture the sacrificial spirit of the early church, it will lose its authenticity, forfeit the loyalty of millions, and be dismissed as an irrelevant social club with no meaning for the twentieth century. Every day I meet young people whose disappointment with the church has turned into outright disgust.

Perhaps I have once again been too optimistic. Is organized religion too inextricably bound to the status quo to save our nation and the world? Perhaps I must turn my faith to the inner spiritual church, the church within the church, as the true ekklesia and the hope of the world. But again I am thankful to God that some noble souls from the ranks of organized religion have broken loose from the paralyzing chains of conformity and joined us as active partners in the struggle for freedom. They have left their secure congregations and walked the streets of Albany, Georgia, with us. They have gone down the highways of the South on tortuous rides for freedom. Yes, they have gone to jail with us. Some have been dismissed from their churches, have lost the support of their bishops and fellow ministers. But they have acted in the faith that right defeated is stronger than evil triumphant. Their witness has been the spiritual salt that has preserved the true meaning of the gospel in these troubled times. They have carved a tunnel of hope through the dark mountain of disappointment. I hope the church as a whole will meet the challenge of this decisive hour. But even if the church does not come to the aid of justice, I have no despair about the future. I have no fear about the outcome of our struggle in Birmingham, even if our motives are at present misunderstood. We will reach the goal of freedom in Birmingham and all over the nation, because the goal of America is freedom. Abused and scorned though we may be, our destiny is tied up with America's destiny. Before the pilgrims landed at Plymouth, we were here. Before the pen of Jefferson etched the majestic words of the Declaration of Independence across the pages of history, we were here. For more than two centuries our forebears labored in this country without wages; they made cotton king; they built the homes of their masters while suffering gross injustice and shameful humiliation -and yet out of a bottomless vitality they continued to thrive and develop. If the inexpressible cruelties of slavery could not stop us, the opposition we now face will surely fail. We will win our freedom because the sacred heritage of our nation and the eternal will of God are embodied in our echoing demands. Before closing I feel impelled to mention one other point in your statement that has troubled me profoundly. You warmly commended the Birmingham police force for keeping "order" and "preventing violence." I doubt that you would have so warmly commended the police force if you had seen its dogs sinking their teeth into unarmed, nonviolent Negroes. I doubt that you would so quickly commend the policemen if you were to observe their ugly and inhumane treatment of Negroes here in the city jail; if you were to watch them push and curse old Negro women and young Negro girls; if you were to see them slap and kick old Negro men and young boys; if you were to observe them, as they did on two occasions, refuse to give us food because we wanted to sing our grace together. I cannot join you in your praise of the Birmingham police department.

It is true that the police have exercised a degree of discipline in handling the demonstrators. In this sense they have conducted themselves rather "nonviolently" in public. But for what purpose? To preserve the evil system of segregation. Over the past few years I have consistently preached that nonviolence demands that the means we use must be as pure as the ends we seek. I have tried to make clear that it is wrong to use immoral means to attain moral ends. But now I must affirm that it is just as wrong, or perhaps even more so, to use moral means to preserve immoral ends. Perhaps Mr. Connor and his policemen have been rather nonviolent in public, as was Chief Pritchett in Albany, Georgia, but they have used the moral means of nonviolence to maintain the immoral end of racial injustice. As T. S. Eliot has said: "The last temptation is the greatest treason: To do the right deed for the wrong reason."

I wish you had commended the Negro sit inners and demonstrators of Birmingham for their sublime courage, their willingness to suffer and their amazing discipline in the midst of great provocation. One day the South will recognize its real heroes. They will be the James Merediths, with the noble sense of purpose that enables them to face jeering and hostile mobs, and with the agonizing loneliness that characterizes the life of the pioneer. They will be old, oppressed, battered Negro women, symbolized in a seventy two year old woman in Montgomery, Alabama, who rose up with a sense of dignity and with her people decided not to ride segregated buses, and who responded with ungrammatical profundity to one who inquired about her weariness: "My feets is tired, but my soul is at rest." They will be the young high school and college students, the young ministers of the gospel and a host of their elders, courageously and nonviolently sitting in at lunch counters and willingly going to jail for conscience' sake. One day the South will know that when these disinherited children of God sat down at lunch counters, they were in reality standing up for what is best in the American dream and for the most sacred values in our Judaeo Christian heritage, thereby bringing our nation back to those great wells of democracy which were dug deep by the founding fathers in their formulation of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.

Never before have I written so long a letter. I'm afraid it is much too long to take your precious time. I can assure you that it would have been much shorter if I had been writing from a comfortable desk, but what else can one do when he is alone in a narrow jail cell, other than write long letters, think long thoughts and pray long prayers?

If I have said anything in this letter that overstates the truth and indicates an unreasonable impatience, I beg you to forgive me. If I have said anything that understates the truth and indicates my having a patience that allows me to settle for anything less than brotherhood, I beg God to forgive me.

I hope this letter finds you strong in the faith. I also hope that circumstances will soon make it possible for me to meet each of you, not as an integrationist or a civil-rights leader but as a fellow clergyman and a Christian brother. Let us all hope that the dark clouds of racial prejudice will soon pass away and the deep fog of misunderstanding will be lifted from our fear drenched communities, and in some not too distant tomorrow the radiant stars of love and brotherhood will shine over our great nation with all their scintillating beauty.

Yours for the cause of Peace and Brotherhood, Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Post Post #19617  (isolation #100)  » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:26 pm

In post 19614, YellowSnow wrote:based on the statement from NFLPA president Eric Winston:
"The divisiveness we are experiencing in this country has created gridlock in our political system, given voice to extreme, fringe beliefs and paralyzed our progress as a nation."

He's basically calling anyone who disagrees with the kneel protest racist and if you can call the GOP racist because of the president then you can call the NFLPA a black organization for supporting the black position on the social justice movement.


"The black position"


This is so depressing.
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Post Post #19622  (isolation #101)  » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:35 pm

In post 19614, YellowSnow wrote:
NFL Owner Jerry Jones:
"At all times, if I am anything, I am first and foremost a proponent of making the NFL strong. Making us have as many people watching the game as we can and watching in light of what we are doing and that's playing football. If all this makes you stronger to represent messages, let's don't do it in a way that tears down the strength of the NFL."

Basically he's saying that the NFL shouldn't be a political battlefield, and I understand his position. The protests are effecting the NFL's bottom line, and that effects the NFL's ability to pay their players and support their families. I think the spirit behind the protests is fine but I don't think the NFL can be blamed for drawing a line in the sand when it comes to their product. I'm not in favor of calling anyone who disagrees with a protest method racist.


In post 19598, YellowSnow wrote:
I'm not saying social justice is not a worthy goal I just don't think realistically it's something that can be solved overnight and pointing fingers at businesses like the NFL doesn't really help anything.


You sound a lot like what this guy is talking about in these three paragraphs - just in case you didn't make it all the way through

Spoiler:
In post 19610, u r a person 2 wrote:We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct action campaign that was "well timed" in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the word "Wait!" It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This "Wait" has almost always meant "Never." We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that "justice too long delayed is justice denied."


In post 19610, u r a person 2 wrote:I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality. Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured.
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Post Post #19623  (isolation #102)  » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:44 pm

Why is the answer to silence the protester instead of stop the killing of black men by police?

oh right, nfl games isn't the time or the place to protest

the national anthem isn't the right time to protest

My lunch counters shouldn't be a political battlefield
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Post Post #19624  (isolation #103)  » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:46 pm

Do you know that they came up with the story that Rosa Parks was exhausted because they feared the reaction of white moderates to another ill-timed protest?
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Post Post #19633  (isolation #104)  » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:09 pm

In post 19633, Slaxx wrote:Technically you’re right to my knowledge, the NFL could fire them.

But that would only be the case if enough fans boycotted or complain.

So one group of people is protesting a very real issue and risking their career, while the other doesn’t want their bubble popped by pregame antics.

And society is split on who should give.

The whole concept proves the point.


You're correct about firing him, I think, but not hiring him is a lot murkier. That's not because of anti-discrimination laws, btw. If the owners got together and decided that nobody would hire him - something which seems likely given his skill and lack of offers - that's collusion, and collusion IS illegal.

You're whole point is correct, and the more important issue. I'm just adding a detail
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Post Post #19635  (isolation #105)  » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:05 pm

kublai khan, well put

also i didn't know about the draft bit but it makes a lot of sense
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Post Post #19652  (isolation #106)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:15 pm

This is my congress woman right now.. I was somewhere else when I voted, and I'm falling in love with the Somali community around here, but damn I wish she wasn't my congress woman.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/02/ ... ey-1163631
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Post Post #19653  (isolation #107)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:28 pm

Ugh. A nazi news website which I refuse to promote by naming is even praising her:


"This [] Congresswoman is []... crushing the [jewish people] and their [] allies like Kevin McCarthy.
McCarthy is now the nation’s national hallmonitor, who will hunt you down and destroy your life completely if you ever question [the jewish people]
The difference between Steve King and [Rep. Ilhan Omar], however, is that [Rep. Ilhan Omar] does not give a fuck."

Hate speech removed or replaced. I mean it's all hate speech, I guess, but I still want to shine a light on how the worst of the worst feel about Rep. Ilhan Omar and this is the least offensive way I could think of while still keeping the meaning.
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Post Post #19694  (isolation #108)  » Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:03 pm

In post 19694, inte wrote:don jr is really just is a inferior version of 45 which says a lot

He's clearly been searching for the approval and affection of a man that is entirely incapable of giving either. And he's been doing it for his entire life.
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Post Post #19702  (isolation #109)  » Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:09 pm

My favorite is "That guy on CBS"

Colbert wanted a real nickname so badly, lol
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Post Post #19703  (isolation #110)  » Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:23 pm

Michael Cohen testimony was lit

Ya'll catch anything that interested you?
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Post Post #19705  (isolation #111)  » Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:30 pm

lolol truuue

I perked up when they started talking about a video of trump hitting his wife, but cohen says it's all bullshit
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Post Post #19706  (isolation #112)  » Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:31 pm

If Cohen lied about wanting a job at the White House, though...

What a fucking idiot.
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Post Post #19709  (isolation #113)  » Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:34 pm

In post 19708, Slaxx wrote:
In post 19705, Psyche wrote:really liked that observation someone made that the core of rep's defense in this situation is "the man at donald trump's side has very reliably and very transparently been a scumbag for his entire public career"


And also deputy chair of the RNC



Who helped another RNC bigwig pay a woman to keep silent about their affair
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Post Post #19713  (isolation #114)  » Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:17 am

I heard someone on tv speculating that the southern district is working towards a RICO case.

Boy, wouldn't that be something.

And I can't wait for the testimony of Mr. Matty Calamari ;P

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Post Post #19722  (isolation #115)  » Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:21 pm

In post 19722, theplague42 wrote:
In post 19720, shaft.ed wrote:hilarious story snippedMAGA

Who'd have thought that a growing economy means we buy more stuff from other places?


trade war was supposed to fix that tho, right? I mean we lose 500 billion dollars to china every year :roll:

if reducing the trade deficit wasn't the point, why are we bankrupting soy bean farmers?
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Post Post #19747  (isolation #116)  » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:47 pm

In post 19745, Aristophanes wrote:So I read that Trump just got Vetoed in an attempt to declare a state of emergency for wall building purposes. That's like, pretty big ya?

close!

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/14/us/p ... gency.html
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Post Post #19751  (isolation #117)  » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:59 pm

I think I like you.

So congress passes the law - in this case, that law is basically "wall bad"
and then trump is going to veto that law - allowing the wall to go forward under his emergency declaration.
Congress could override his veto - veto his veto - but they need more votes than they can get

but I don't think it's going to be long before we get to that point.

You heard it here first, trump will not be president on Jan 1, 2020.

Things are going to start moving fast.
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Post Post #19752  (isolation #118)  » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:06 pm

House Votes 420 - 0, to Demand Public Release of Mueller Report

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/14/us/p ... ublic.html

Time to light up, boys
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Post Post #19761  (isolation #119)  » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:36 am

In post 19758, Ginngie wrote:
In post 19753, u r a person 2 wrote:House Votes 420 - 0, to Demand Public Release of Mueller Report

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/14/us/p ... ublic.html

Time to light up, boys

Two things

One, it’s a non-binding resolution. Basically saying hey AG Barr, we prefer you publicly release it. It is not legally binding.

Two, senate republicans have already begun blocking it.


i'm aware of all of these things

but the chinks in the armor are starting to show

shit is gonna snowball
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Post Post #19762  (isolation #120)  » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:41 am

In post 19759, T-Bone wrote:I bet you 100 bucks that Trunp will still be President on January 1st, 2020


I'm not 100% sure this is legal, nor that you're good for it, so forgive me, but I'll pass

But you can quote my post at me on Jan 1 if I'm wrong and we can all grieve together
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Post Post #19765  (isolation #121)  » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:33 pm

no, im not expecting him to be impeached. I'm expecting him to resign in a deal with the southern district of ny that allows his children to stay out of prison
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Post Post #19766  (isolation #122)  » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:34 pm

basically the exact same thing that happened with spiro agnew
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Post Post #19769  (isolation #123)  » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:57 pm

while sdny are fed prosecutors, there will be corresponding state prosecutors to worry about, if not political considerations.

ny has already moved to get rid of the double jeopardy protection - look at the state charges against manafort for how they're working to stop him from pardoning his way out
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Post Post #19779  (isolation #124)  » Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:03 pm

okay yeah but like the deal would also include him not being prosecuted
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Post Post #19780  (isolation #125)  » Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:03 pm

I know it sounds crazy, but that's the shot I'm calling
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Post Post #19786  (isolation #126)  » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:31 am

mate don't underestimate barron. it's not a coincidence that barron is born and all of a sudden trump starts getting off his ass and into birtherism and then running for pres

i think it's clear barron has been the brains of this criminal outfit since he first arrived on the scene
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Post Post #19798  (isolation #127)  » Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:35 am

In post 19791, GrandWazoo wrote:https://nypost.com/2019/03/16/jewish-voters-are-furious-at-dems-defense-of-ilhan-omar/

“I’m homeless. I don’t think I can vote for Trump, even though he’s great for Israel,” said Jason, a start-up owner from Long Island who asked that his surname not be used. “But as a Jew, I can’t see a way to support the Democratic Party. It’s supporting your own destruction.”


Jewish voters have historically been among the most reliable Dem blocs and AIPAC is one of the most powerful lobbies in Washington. Alienating them is about the stupidest thing Dems can do, but they're doing it anyway.



ooph I love the nypost, but it is a conservative rag. I wouldn't take an article like this at face value.
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Post Post #19809  (isolation #128)  » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:39 pm

MUELLER!
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Post Post #19810  (isolation #129)  » Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:29 pm

MUELLER :mad:

Legit more relieved than I thought I would be that Trump isn't an actual russian agent.

Also taking this opportunity to double down on my prediction that trump isn't president Jan 1, 2020.
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Post Post #19814  (isolation #130)  » Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:29 pm

So I think this goes overboard, but it's an important read, nonetheless.

https://taibbi.substack.com/p/russiagat ... -a-million


On a separate track, I'd like to see mueller or similar appointed to investigate the circumstances surrounding the initiation of the investigations into trump, and any role the intelligence services had in pushing the trump as russian agent narrative. Best case scenario, the witch hunt argument is put to bed. Worst case scenario, there really was an attempt by members of the intelligence and/or law enforcement communities that worked to harm a duly elected president.
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Post Post #19816  (isolation #131)  » Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:44 pm

hey, that's what sean hannity et al. are calling for, and I can't see a reason to oppose it.
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Post Post #19819  (isolation #132)  » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:23 pm

i mean that blog is matt taibbi

he did some really important reporting right at the start of the 08 financial crises. He's why goldman sachs got the nickname the vampire squid.

he's persona non grata on the left right now, but he's not a light weight.

I don't agree with him or his circle who have been critical of mueller and the investigation from the start - glenn greenwald is another in this group - I think we needed the investigation, but I think maybe we need the next one too? Mueller has proven himself to both sides that he is a fair investigator. Maybe through him we can restore some of the trust between parties. Democrats can come to terms with trump not being a traitor, and trump supporters can come to terms with the deep state not actually conspiring against donald trump.
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Post Post #19907  (isolation #133)  » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:33 am

K Conway yesterday slipped that different sanctuary city mayors had already reached out offering to accept asylum seekers while they wait, but when pressed wouldn't ask more mayors to do so.

They don't actually want to send migrants to sanctuary cities, they just want to say "well if you like em so much, then you take them!" and then when we predictably respond by calling him terrible conservative radio will go "SEE! The liberals don't want them either. They're just hypocrites playing politics!!" And that will further affirm their belief that it is okay to not want to let in anymore brown people.

And I bet it's been effective for them
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Post Post #19944  (isolation #134)  » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:50 pm

In post 19942, Ginngie wrote:Basically I'm not a prick and say thank you when someone shows concern or offers help.

Also you're seriously becoming hyperbolic like that one tweet is gonna affect the firefighters morale like they're gonna check twitter or something before they rush into the cathedral.


Someone did actually take time to respond, just sayin. It wasn't the worst thing trump has said by 100 miles but it isn't worth defending either lol~

Spoiler:
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Post Post #19946  (isolation #135)  » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:59 pm

In post 19946, Maruchan wrote:Guys I think Trump watches 9-1-1 on FOX on Monday nights. In it in last nights episode they used a water bombing plane to put out a neighborhood of home gas explosions. Then Trump tweets we should do it later that night? Coincidence?

Is this true? because if so then i think you are on to something
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Post Post #19948  (isolation #136)  » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:02 pm

brb emailing huffpo
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Post Post #19999  (isolation #137)  » Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:48 pm

In post 19996, Flubbernugget wrote:The Intercept is pretty good factwise afaict, but they claim they're not mainstream, and some of their left slant is really crappy


I like 3% think that Glenn Greenwald is a Russian asset. Him and that whole crowd of journalists that spent years in Russia, and managed to speedily arrange for Russian sanctuary for Snowden, and who were pushing the whole "the cia and fbi are still the enemy of the left so the whole russia investigation is a hoax" line since the beginning.

If you believe the russians managed to infiltrate the nra and other rebublican apparatus on the far right, there is no reason to believe they aren't doing so on the far left.
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Post Post #20028  (isolation #138)  » Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:34 pm

did you guys even watch chambers' youtube link?

I don't know the details but some Democrat pushed a bill that would ease restrictions on late term abortions and it led to a discussion (i think?) of what happens to severely deformed babies. My understanding is that parents are responsible for making decisions about life support, etc for their children, and I think republicans have twisted that into an argument that Democrats want to allow for abortion even after birth, which would obviously just be murder.
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Post Post #20031  (isolation #139)  » Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:18 pm

I think we're trying to say the same thing shaft.ed
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Post Post #20033  (isolation #140)  » Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:42 pm

im not a doctor i didn't mean offence. I'm just meant to differentiate between killing the child and not resuscitating them or keeping them on life support. I'm sure i used the wrong words (i think i got them from the youtube vid?) but it wasn't malicious
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Post Post #20144  (isolation #141)  » Fri May 03, 2019 10:32 pm

I've always found this thought experiment compelling. Wiki tells me it was put forth by Judith Thomson

You wake up in the morning and find yourself back to back in bed with an unconscious violinist. A famous unconscious violinist. He has been found to have a fatal kidney ailment, and the Society of Music Lovers has canvassed all the available medical records and found that you alone have the right blood type to help. They have therefore kidnapped you, and last night the violinist's circulatory system was plugged into yours, so that your kidneys can be used to extract poisons from his blood as well as your own. [If he is unplugged from you now, he will die; but] in nine months he will have recovered from his ailment, and can safely be unplugged from you.

Do you have the right to unplug yourself?
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Post Post #20146  (isolation #142)  » Fri May 03, 2019 10:34 pm

oh my bad then
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Post Post #20232  (isolation #143)  » Mon May 06, 2019 10:19 pm

In post 20202, Fluminator wrote:I find it amusing so many people took offense to hearing "a large amount of pro choice men don't actually care about women." when the pro choice side's entire stick is that pro lifers hate women.
Not the intended point when j said that, but maybe you know how pro lifers feel when hearing that now.

Also, phrasing it as pro-choice anti-choice is as useful as framing it as pro-life and anti-life.

Yeah but one is a scum read based on play and the other is unsubstantiated shade
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Post Post #20237  (isolation #144)  » Tue May 07, 2019 12:18 am

In post 20236, Ginngie wrote:If America didn’t establish Democracy, then we never would have had to worry about Trump usurping the government and require this thread.

He serves a good point

Wouldn't that make it all Greece's fault? =P
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Post Post #20242  (isolation #145)  » Tue May 07, 2019 12:27 am

If Democracy as a system of government is at fault for Trump, then the Greeks are at fault for inventing the word "democracy" and giving us the inspiration for our own folly

From https://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~rwest/wikispe ... ocracy.htm
Athens is among the first recorded and one of the most important democracies in ancient times; the word "democracy" ( Greek: δημοκρατία - "rule by the people") was invented by Athenians in order to define their system of government, around 508 BC. In the next generation, Ephialtes of Athens had a law passed severely limiting the powers of the Council of the Areopagus, which deprived the Athenian nobility of their special powers.
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Post Post #20245  (isolation #146)  » Tue May 07, 2019 8:34 am

In post 20243, SleepyKrew wrote:did you really just cite a source in a forum discussion while talking about democracy's history in Greece

what's the problem, oh dismissive one?
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Post Post #20250  (isolation #147)  » Tue May 07, 2019 9:17 pm

In post 20249, SleepyKrew wrote:
In post 20245, u r a person 2 wrote:
In post 20243, SleepyKrew wrote:did you really just cite a source in a forum discussion while talking about democracy's history in Greece

what's the problem, oh dismissive one?

it was unnecessary on a whole new level

If I link you some other threads, do you think you could find time to give similarly useful commentary on their contents as well? I'd hate to keep you all to myself

like, a guy asked me "why greece" implying that he had no fucking idea what I was talking about
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Post Post #20252  (isolation #148)  » Tue May 07, 2019 10:26 pm

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... taxes.html


1.1 billion in mid 80s-90s dollars... so about 1.9 billion in todays dollars

that's quite a loss, Mr. Trump.
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Post Post #20264  (isolation #149)  » Wed May 08, 2019 11:00 am

he's talking about how you can claim depreciation on your assets. E.g., as a building ages, the physical structure loses value over time and you can claim that as a loss

but it's still bullshit. the article discusses exactly that and why it couldn't amount to such staggering losses
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Post Post #20265  (isolation #150)  » Wed May 08, 2019 11:01 am

also, if it was strategic, you'd think his father would also have been showing losses on his taxes

but it doesn't sound like he was!
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Post Post #20268  (isolation #151)  » Wed May 08, 2019 5:04 pm

As I read it, the NY Times article did not allege fraud. It simply said that he was a shitty business man who lost lots of money instead of making lots of money.
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Post Post #20276  (isolation #152)  » Wed May 15, 2019 1:57 am

Trump's lawyers argued today that congress has no authority to investigate corruption within the white house

The justice department says they can't indict a president, or even accuse him of a crime!

So who can keep the executive branch in check? What a god damn shit show this country is right now!
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Post Post #20311  (isolation #153)  » Wed May 15, 2019 5:14 pm

In post 20295, Irrelephant11 wrote:I've avoided posting in this thread forever because politics stress me out but... whatever, I catch up on this thread like weekly so might as well put it in my egoposts

A helpful response I've found to "how come everyone can have racial pride but us?" is "Racial pride is the Bad Thing(tm), because it celebrates who you're not. Cultural pride, on the other hand, is a good thing, because it celebrates the story of your ancestors and the cultural artifacts (traditions, holidays, etc) that have been passed down to you. Be proud of your Irish heritage, your family tree connections to early American settlers, your favorite Polish dish that your mom knows how to make because her immigrant grandma taught her, etc. - those things are okay and good! It's only a bad thing to celebrate "Being White", because Whiteness has only ever existed as a way of saying "not dark, dirty, bad, or black".

This hits the nail on the head. 100% Very well said.

Responses to this quote appear to have failed to comprehend it at a very basic level.
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Post Post #20343  (isolation #154)  » Wed May 15, 2019 6:55 pm

Expressing support for racists is as bad as racism. It doesn't matter if it's through memes that are otherwise innocent.
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Post Post #20344  (isolation #155)  » Wed May 15, 2019 6:57 pm

In post 20343, u r a person 2 wrote:Expressing support for racists is as bad as racism. It doesn't matter if it's through memes that are otherwise innocent.

This may seem silly, but it's not. I guarantee that a meme meant to be taken as a racist symbol is as hurtful as an actual racist symbol.
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Post Post #20345  (isolation #156)  » Wed May 15, 2019 6:58 pm

They are functionally equivalent.
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Post Post #20346  (isolation #157)  » Wed May 15, 2019 6:59 pm

If I high five someone and tell everyone that high fives are the new way of saying "Kill the _____" then a person in that group who sees me high fiving someone on the street is going to feel the same fear as if I threw up a swastika or whatever

it really doesn't matter what my motivations are. It doesn't matter if I mean it or if I'm doing it for the lulz.
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Post Post #20354  (isolation #158)  » Wed May 15, 2019 7:09 pm

No word or symbol has an inherently evil meaning. They only gain those meanings when people believe that they have those meanings. For this reason, it doesn't matter if you believe that you're flashing a hateful symbol or not. All that matters is whether those targeted by hatred believe it is a hateful symbol.

Case in point: The swastika was a symbol for thousands of years that had nothing to do with nazis or hating jews. That doesn't make it crazy for people to believe it is a hateful symbol. It has new connotations now. The same is true of any symbol. If people come to believe that the peace sign is hateful - regardless of whether that understanding comes as a result of a meme - and someone flashes you a peace sign, you are not crazy to believe that someone is flashing a symbol of hate at you.
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Post Post #20371  (isolation #159)  » Wed May 15, 2019 7:36 pm

Garmr is right that liberals are prone to getting trolled right now. The thing is, it is entirely reasonable for liberals to be this way in today's America.

The president is a racist.

Hate crimes (real ones) ARE up.

White nationalists marched in the streets with torches shouting "Jews will not replace us"

Multiple synagogues have been shot up by self-proclaimed anti-semites

Conservative judicial nominees have begun refusing to publicly support Brown v. Board of Ed, and by doing so they are signalling loud and clear that they think the way to a conservative supreme court seat is through willingness to support segregation.

It's not crazy to think that hatred is on the rise and that forceful rebukes are required to hang on to the civil rights fought for over the last century.
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Post Post #20372  (isolation #160)  » Wed May 15, 2019 7:37 pm

and that's just the shit off the top of my head
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Post Post #20375  (isolation #161)  » Wed May 15, 2019 7:42 pm

I agree with your narrative all the way through 4chan is making people their bitch. Where we differ, is that I believe those people on 4chan are encouraging hatred through these actions. Yes, you can turn anything into a symbol of hate, but by doing so you are propagating hate.
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Post Post #20380  (isolation #162)  » Wed May 15, 2019 8:57 pm

I mean, he's not wrong. Everyone not laughing thinks you're an asshole. Everyone.
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Post Post #20399  (isolation #163)  » Wed May 15, 2019 11:55 pm

In post 20385, Fluminator wrote:
In post 20360, Psyche wrote:I've asked you dozens of questions since you popped into this thread with your retarded antiwhite media claim and you barely answered one. But because I'm not bothering to explain what a symbol is to you I'm stupid.

The media definitely has a bias towards progressivism though, doesn't it?

No. It's the opposite. Media has a conservative bias. They let conservatives blatantly lie and argue in bad faith in the name of "fairness" because they're afraid of being labeled biased for the left. See: Clinton emails vs grabbed her by the pussy and every other Trump scandal in the campaign. These were not equal scandals but they were treated that way.
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Post Post #20401  (isolation #164)  » Thu May 16, 2019 12:50 am

In post 20387, Garmr wrote:3.Are you sure they are white nationalist. I mean the left is really Anti Semitic with the leader of the woman march,ilhan omar,black isrealites,anti jerusalem. Also if you check back those white supremacist (KKK) you are calling right leaning support the left and were created by the left. Seems like hating jews is ok if you just blame it all on the right


I'm a steadfast supporter of Israel, and you're correct that there are anti-semites on the left. It's despicable, and I don't condone it. BDS is a hateful and wrongheaded movement, and those associated with it should be ashamed.

It's telling that even when trump is promoting support for Israel and pushing his agenda of hatred against black and brown people, it's the synagogues getting shot up by his supporters. Anti-semitism is still as deeply held and insidious as it's ever been. Even this demagogue who can make his supporters believe that up is down can't redirect their hatred of the Jewish people because it is so ingrained. And it's there on the left, too.

But yes, I'm sure Charlottesville was white nationalists. I didn't think this was up for debate.

Are you saying that there were fine people in that March?
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Post Post #20402  (isolation #165)  » Thu May 16, 2019 12:53 am

It's also disingenuous to say the KKK was started by the left. It was started by Democrats, yes. But the southern strategy realigned the parties in such a way that southern, KKK-supporting Democrats became today's Republicans.

Do you honestly believe that there are Democrats in the KKK today?

Give me a break, dude.
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Post Post #20408  (isolation #166)  » Thu May 16, 2019 11:12 am

Wsj has a long documented conservative bias. Cnn is a perfect example of media afraid to be called liberal. Even the Washington Post runs columns from people like George Will that play fast and loose with truth to push conservative ideology. Tbh, if you read wapo on a daily basis, you'll see their oped page runs pretty conservative
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Post Post #20409  (isolation #167)  » Thu May 16, 2019 11:20 am

The thing about conservative bias - they don't have to be conservative papers. The NYTimes is certainly a liberal newspaper, but even they were at fault for equating Clinton's emails with all the many scandals about DJT in the election. When the goal is to make reporting appear fair, but one side has scandals up the wazoo and policies based on fake news, and the other has.. the email scandal, giving equal time to each side IS conservative bias.
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Post Post #20419  (isolation #168)  » Thu May 16, 2019 6:54 pm

In post 20413, Untrod Tripod wrote:please do not respond to obvious trolls and/or people who are clearly not arguing in good faith

=/
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Post Post #20420  (isolation #169)  » Thu May 16, 2019 6:55 pm

In post 20415, shaft.ed wrote:yes the paper instrumental in lying us into the Iraq war is soooo liberal

i mean, a lack of competence does not equate to a political leaning.


okay, as I typed that out I realized how silly it sounds in the trump era, but it was more true then ;P
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Post Post #20426  (isolation #170)  » Thu May 16, 2019 9:21 pm

I believe they were duped. People make mistakes. All things considered, they are one of the best newspapers in the country for politics
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Post Post #20430  (isolation #171)  » Fri May 17, 2019 9:07 am

We definitely don't mobilize people as effectively through outrage politics on the left. Yeah, we get outraged over policy, but somehow we don't get outraged by the average citizen in the same way.

Take the 4chan trolls trying to "own the libs" all the time. Left media presents this is a problem in so far as it may help reelect trump, and when it leads to violence, right? But if there were libs going around talking about how to "own the cons" it would be headline news as evidence of how conceited the left is and how people need to vote to put them back into their place.

I'm not saying it would be proper or good to create this dynamic on the left, but it sure does seem effective for the right. Probably not expressing this well, but w/e
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Post Post #20439  (isolation #172)  » Fri May 17, 2019 10:45 am

In post 20437, Kublai Khan wrote:Yeah, that's what I was getting at before Garmr hi-jacked the conversation. I understand that it's empowering and important to break down systematic racism by announcing that we don't need to care about "wypipo fee-fees" all the time. But white supremacist groups are seizing on that message to boost their membership. They want the frame the issue as "non-whites vs whites". They want the youth to feel like they are casualties retaliating in a race war started by progressives.

If we want racism to actually age out and for groups like the KKK's membership to dwindle, we have to work on messaging. And care about white people's feelings as much as anyone else's feelings.


I think this is a false narrative because I'm not sure it would matter what the messaging on the left is. Even if people were just saying, "uh, may we please have a single seat at the table full of white men," the right would scream, "You want to take a seat away from a white guy because he's a white guy?!? That's reverse racism!"

I don't know what to do about it, though.
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Post Post #20453  (isolation #173)  » Sat May 18, 2019 2:47 pm

When I first heard the term SJW I thought it was a compliment~

Still do, really
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Post Post #20460  (isolation #174)  » Sat May 18, 2019 9:38 pm

It's not John Lewis I hear calling people SJW.

If it's truly a way to call them disingenuous, it's from people who want to believe that any white person supporting civil rights must be a liar.
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Post Post #20479  (isolation #175)  » Wed May 22, 2019 6:08 pm

i want the hyper speed loops!

IF they could get built, they are fast, cheap, and could provide a connection between cities and rural areas that might just bridge the growing cultural and economic divide in this country.
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Post Post #20488  (isolation #176)  » Wed May 22, 2019 7:10 pm

I think there's at least one company building a test track. Why is it a scam exactly? The theory seems pretty sound to me
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Post Post #20491  (isolation #177)  » Wed May 22, 2019 8:06 pm

Those both sound like reasonable concerns

I don't own stock, but 600-700mph is pretty fast, and there's at least one non-musk company building a test track right now

so I'm gonna keep my fingers crossed. =P
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Post Post #20492  (isolation #178)  » Wed May 22, 2019 8:07 pm

3x the speed of bullet trains would be a big deal in terms of being able to commute from the middle of no where to the middle of somewhere
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Post Post #20494  (isolation #179)  » Wed May 22, 2019 8:29 pm

In post 20493, shaft.ed wrote:low capacity high speed travel already went out of business

are we talking small planes (which are used for all sorts of rural transport)
or cars (which were the original low capacity, high speed transport)
or what?

Looking at it from the perspective of a problem in need of a solution. Republicans win elections primarily, or in part, because of the economic and cultural divide between metropolitan areas and rural areas. A technology that could bridge that gap by allowing people to commute from far greater distances in a reasonable amount of time would
a) decrease housing costs in cities
b) increase real estate value in rural areas
c) bring economic benefit to rural areas by providing access to metropolitan job markets
d) bridge the culture gap by forcing increased daily interactions

Some technology capable of achieving this is the road hyperloop to an enduring liberal federal government.
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Post Post #20500  (isolation #180)  » Wed May 22, 2019 11:48 pm

In post 20499, Lycanfire wrote:Like with nuclear power. I think it's great, except for the fact that we can't recycle the waste worth a damn, so as a renewable energy resource I'm strictly anti-nuclear for this reason alone, and I do sneer at anyone that promises that the tech will come. It's easy to put the burden on an already over burdened class (people with a college diploma) and never think about issues, but it's much more fair in delegating responsibility if we were to talk about cultural problems, and it would be likely, as a solution, one that would yield results sooner as well.


haha turns out im an advocate for next generation nuclear-energy as a full time job...

the waste problem isn't actually an issue worth worrying about. 3000 plant-years of operation have resulted in less than a football field's worth of waste. If this sounds like a lot, it's not in the grand scheme of things. But more importantly, it means that the technological solution to containing/reusing the current level of waste is the same scale as the solution for if we operate plants for another 3000 plant-years. Continuing to split the atom doesn't make the problem harder.

Right now the electric utility industry is moving towards a combination of renewables backed up by natural gas. Renewables cannot function without some sort of back up. If we're going to mitigate climate change, we're going to have to get off natural gas at some point. The current options to replace it are batteries and advanced nuclear (current gen will never build another plant in the US. ever.) Batteries might be the answer, but the tech isn't there yet to feasibly scale up. It's my opinion that we shouldn't stop working on nuclear because, well, batteries simply might not get there, and then what?

Further, the idea that there are perfect energy sources is silly. Coal ash contaminates rivers, and burning it pollutes our skies. Natural gas explosions are deadly and routine in this country. Solar panels have a not-so-long lifespan, and when they're finished, they go into the same electronics-waste stream as all other electronics. Usually this ends with children in China or some other country pulling them apart with their hands, extracting the valuable materials, and burying the waste in the ground. Wind has similar issues, and both have a surprisingly high (still low, but higher than you think) cost in human lives from construction accidents. Nuclear is as clean as wind and solar from a CO2 standpoint, but has the waste issue, and is about 3x more costly than the cheapest wind energy, and 2x more costly than the cheapest storage option. Those costs may come down as we get along an experience curve like wind and solar.

We all want the lights to go on, but there is no unicorn spitting rainbow energy out of its ass.
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Post Post #20502  (isolation #181)  » Thu May 23, 2019 12:22 am

yup that's called pump hydro. the problem with pump hydro is that you can't do it cost effectively without terrain cooperating with your efforts. I've spoken personally with a number of utilities that would love to do pump hydro but can't because there simply isn't a place to do it.
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Post Post #20503  (isolation #182)  » Thu May 23, 2019 12:24 am

Hydro itself (forget the pump) is a near perfect energy source... except we've already done just about all the hydro that our rivers can support.

if someone tries to sell you an obvious answer to our energy issues, I promise you they're not telling you the catch.
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Post Post #20504  (isolation #183)  » Thu May 23, 2019 12:29 am

In post 20502, u r a person 2 wrote:yup that's called pump hydro. the problem with pump hydro is that you can't do it cost effectively without terrain cooperating with your efforts. I've spoken personally with a number of utilities that would love to do pump hydro but can't because there simply isn't a place to do it.

not to mention the still unresolved issues of damage to river ecosystems (pump hydro is almost always done on a river for obvious reasons. after you release the water and turn the turbines, the water has to go somewhere), and the effects of storing massive amounts of water along rivers where there are down stream needs for that water. The western half of this country is already nearly using all of the water available to it. They're considering doing pump hydro at the hoover dam, and the people whose jobs and livelihoods depend on the water flowing down stream are going batshit about the potential effects of such a project
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Post Post #20505  (isolation #184)  » Thu May 23, 2019 12:33 am

you think the idea of a lithium ion battery fire in your consumer products is scary...

https://yourvalley.net/yourvalley/busin ... ry-mishap/
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Post Post #20508  (isolation #185)  » Thu May 23, 2019 12:43 am

I don't even like to get into the deaths per TWh of electricity produced because they show that nuclear is ridiculously safe. And I mean that literally. People simply refuse to believe the numbers, and they ridicule the messenger. But if you have an open mind

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear ... ted_States

take a look at the fatalities column in the table of accidents

and when you look at those deaths, make sure you look at the causes. They might surprise you

"A worker at the Wolf Creek Generating Station falls through an unmarked manhole and electrocutes himself when trying to escape"

not exactly the fault of the technology =P
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Post Post #20511  (isolation #186)  » Thu May 23, 2019 9:04 am

In post 20509, Lycanfire wrote:URAP: I get that you're excited about this technology but I don't think you're making a very convincing case. There's no market force that will create the motion that begins recycling nuclear waste faster than it is created, and the markets, if encouraged, will make more of this waste. Burying it in doomsday vaults is a tough sell and is running contrary to my caution of appealing to science to solve problems. This is at least two of those 'cultural problems' I mentioned summed up.

The only way to get my support on nuclear power is a real, binding resolution based on fact that all waste will be reserved for recycling by X date. What will make me wag my finger at so-called techbros is the approach of: "well, science is basically magic anyway. in twenty years my iphone will probably run on nuclear waste." What I'm trying to say is:


my point is that there is no functional difference between the waste problem with the amount of waste we have now, and 5 times the waste. None.

We've been running nuclear power plants for ~60 years. We could run a shit ton more of them for another 60 years and the problem still doesn't change because the total volume is so remarkably small. It's the same problem at this volume and 5 times the volume.

So, given that the problem doesn't get harder,

and given that we eventually have to figure out what to do with the waste anyway (because it exists now and it isn't going anywhere for thousands of years)

the nuclear waste issue is not actually a legitimate reason to oppose nuclear.
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Post Post #20512  (isolation #187)  » Thu May 23, 2019 9:07 am

like, the world gains no benefit from having this volume of nuclear waste rather than 5x this volume because the harms are no larger (it sits in storage and is small volume), and the problem must be solved eventually (because it isn't going away).
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u r a person 2
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Joined: December 09, 2018

Post Post #20515  (isolation #188)  » Thu May 23, 2019 2:19 pm

you're right, we are in two different worlds because I don't even understand the terms of the debate you're suggesting.

I'm with you on warren btw. She's my candidate of choice

I'm just saying that nuclear waste (the energy is carbon free, btw. The only carbon costs are in construction and maintenance, and are on par with wind and solar) is not an actual reason to reject nuclear energy as a piece of the puzzle in achieving a carbon free future, and that's because the problem already exists and additional nuclear doesn't worsen the problem even at the margins.

I'm not talking about burying the problem. The problem of nuclear waste exists. It's not going away, and at some point in our future we're going to have to solve it. It's just naive to think that stopping the production of nuclear waste does anything to alleviate that problem now or in the future.

At the core of the energy issue is the lie that any technology is perfect. All energy technologies have costs in terms of dollars, lives, and environmental damage. If we want the lights to turn on - and I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of people DO enjoy having on demand electricity - we're going to have to continue making trade offs. Compared to fossil fuels, it has a higher cost in terms of dollars, and a vastly lower cost in terms of lives and environmental damage. Compared to wind, solar, and batteries, it has a higher cost in terms of dollars, and a lower cost in terms of lives, and an on-par cost in terms of environmental damage.

As to your comments about communism vs capitalism, I have no interest in the discussion. Energy is a large enough issue for me, atm =)

As to climate change, I don't know if anyone is listening to me, but god damn do I have to try. What could possibly be more important?

As to what I'm doing, it's the only thing my conscience allows me to do: Do my best to help us solve this problem.
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