Open 749 | Vengecop - Over!

[Dannflor]

Hello! .o/

VOTE: Vedith

We keep meeting, don't we?

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Creature

If you're bored, make something happen.

[Dannflor]

Hm. I like where Micc is coming from where we basically give ourselves two lynches or two attempts to kill a consensus scum read if we're wrong the first time. At least that's how I'm understanding him. If we mislynch, the investigation will probably end up coming down to that individual's reads however and who they personally think is scummiest. And that's probably for the best, it prevents scum from trying to influence the consensus reads too much and controlling what the investigations are.

@BBmolla, what are you hoping to get out of self voting in RVS?

[Dannflor]

If most of Micc's posts are like this, I wouldn't mind voting him.

His entrance feels mostly NAI because it's all setup spec, would like to see less of that moving forward. Though I do like that he was just presenting options and not pushing one strategy in particular.

@dr worm: what's your plan?

@creature, why is it a great start??

@bbmolla, why the self vote? you need some help there?

VOTE: xwing

Three extremely empty questions. One's been asked already and the others aren't helpful. Xwing, how are your Creature and Dr Worm questions gonna help you get reads?

[Dannflor]

I think Xwing is Scum.

Why don't you vote it?

I don’t like this take at all

I kinda agree with him on xwing, tbh. And his attitude towards RVS is obviously a joke

[Dannflor]

PP, do you usually include the mod in your reads lists?

Why are the two lowest people who haven't posted yet?

[Dannflor]

I'll grant you the first but I'm not sure why people who haven't posted yet are scummy vs. null. Unless I'm interpreting his list wrong.

[Dannflor]

Oh, I see now. I was distracted with how shiny it was

[Dannflor]

I guess it's that I interpreted Creature's "great start" comment as sarcasm and I don't know where the Dr Worm question even comes from. It seems like picking at things to look like you're being in active when in actuality I don't see them "moving the game in any way" as you put it.

[Dannflor]

That makes sense. I like your response, I think town is generally more likely to admit when they suck at early game or when they're actions could be more questionable.

I'll join you on BBMolla, VOTE: BBMolla

@BBMolla, I feel like you might be trying to gain town cred by gambiting that you're willing to be lynched to reveal scum. But if you're town, why would you want to trade your life for the chance of revealing scum vs. going after someone else to start with?

Also, xwing, what don't you like about Dr Worm?

[Dannflor]

Vedith is... weird. I have a difficult time getting a handle on him but I think I'm more prone to town read his jokey/forward style. It reads less like just shit posting and more like trying to get reactions out of people, which is what I think town with that playstyle would do.

At first I thought maybe Dannflor was pushing xwing to see if they reacted in the same manner they did last game in Mewtaph's mini. I thought it was a weird push given the play here was really similar but figured I'd let it go.

See I pushed here because I felt some dissonance between that game and this. In that game xwing started fencesitty and didn't really push anywhere themselves, this game they took some initiative but not in a way I thought was very genuine. #76 is much townier however and matches up with that game a lot more, imo

[Dannflor]

-Slaxx

he's a hydra

[Dannflor]

What about #76 makes you feel that way?

if it was sarcasm, then i didnt get it..

anyway you're right, i suck at very early game, so i generally try to come in games when there's already more content..

anyway, i dont feel good about dr. worm,

but all the jumping around makes me rethink..

creature wanting to stay in RVS is pinging me..
bbmolla self voting action is questionable..i find self-voting as a really dubious move regardless of alignment..

there's nothing much to go on yet, really..i dont think im good with small talk and starting stuff.....

The bolded in particular is what pinged me as familiar and just generally towny, Slaxx

[Dannflor]

Do we want to wait to talk about the BB stuff until he responds?

What do you want to talk about?

[Dannflor]

What about PP is AI to you?

[Dannflor]

I think you've gotten your reactions already, why keep it up? Could you answer my question on the last page?

[Dannflor]

We should lynch Draco a d if Draco town Draco then picks xwing.

Both these slots are town imo

UNVOTE: BBMolla

He's not quite towny but he's definitely not scum. I just don't see the scum motivation for entering the game with a self vote, drawing all that attention, and then continuing to play the way he's playing. My theory was that it was a play for town cred by acting as if he'd be okay with his lynch because he'd get an investigation. But that doesn't really fit with his play of "looking for reactions" + not reading the thread. It's sloppy play, and I think mafia would be more careful here, particularly since they entered the game with such a risky move.

Vedith, is this where your lock town on BBmolla is coming from? Also, why is Draco a scum read

[Dannflor]

PLs are anti town as fuck

lynching scum is better than lynching bad town and im always standing by that.

Ill vote later but im not voting for a PL.

"Look at me I'm so town"

VOTE: Overkill

You complain about lack of content in your "wall" but... provide nothing? You don't even vote.

Yes, my post was unironic. If you have a real problem with my logic point it out so we can discuss it. Don't just throw random shade

I don't APPRECIATE DANNNFLOR and XWINGS unvoting BBMOLL and NOT VOTING new person!! WHY NOT JUST LEAVE VOGE ON BBMOOL FOR PRESSURE?? Why NEED to LOOK like AGREEMENT WITH OTHERS??

I didn't know who I wanted to pressure next, and pressuring BB when he's intent on keeping his vote on his own slot feels unproductive too. He's anti-town but not scum.

But all town are PRs. Scum!Molla never brings that attention to the table.

I'm confused on this train of thought, when did Molla bring town PRs to attention

I follow your case on me, I'm not following why you think it makes xwing scum as well

Your issue is focus and I agree my vote was lazier. But xwing was focused on BB in their vote? I'm not sure what the difference is in your mind behind xwing's questioning and Micc's statement

[Dannflor]

I really didn't like Danns response to me though and I feel he was intentially mis reading what I was saying.

I honestly misread it and I think I've mentioned before I just have a hard time parsing your posts in general, probably just style differences

I thought you were painting me and xwing as buddies but you actually meant only one of us is scum in your mind, yea? If one of us flips red does that clear the other?

In response to your Overkill point, I think scum has a lot to gain by pushing big empty posts. The question is how well they are put together/if they can get away with it. Overkill's attempt wasn't very good but I think it combined with his early posting (especially rallying against a policy lynch like 3 separate times) comes from scum weakly trying to look town instead of town just being useless imo

Also, at risk of xwing suspecting me of pocketing them, their paranoia about me potentially pocketing them is a pretty town instinct imo

[Dannflor]

Hi RC

BBMolla, Dr Worm, Draco, and xwing is my town pool atm.

The observations Dr Worm makes in posts like #283, #277, #196, and #108 read genuine and come from a town place imo. I also don't think he draws so much attention with wanting to vote Overkill at the end of the day yesterday. Though I'll admit I've also just been endeared by his posting style

Draco's been one of the more actively questioning and solving slots in the game. I feel like this slot is obv town. I also don't think scum pushes on me using something as complex as his specific meta with both me and xwing and then backs off of it so easily.

xwing, aside from her very first post I think just matches what I know about her town game pitch perfect. +++ points for being paranoid that I'm pocketing her.

==========

What makes you think scum was voting him early on? It feels like there was bussing to me, but later in the wagon.

VOTE: Micc

Or maybe there was scum off the wagon

I'm annoyed that this bbmolla wagon has fallen apart.

Can someone sell me on the Dannflor wagon? I think I like it but am having a hard time putting words to why.

heh. this wagon was fine but rushing to the lynch is stupid. I'm hoping for the best but I don't like the chances.

You complained about the BBmolla wagon falling apart (which it did for good reason) and then just stayed on it as the only vote for the rest of the day. BBmolla was the definition of a vanity wagon while you in post #235 desperately tried to get ppl to help you shift wagons in way that would look natural. If you think you like my wagon, vote it instead of asking for people's approval.

End of the day post may not be AI on its own but I still think it's pretty bad considering context. You stayed on your vanity wagon despite saying

multiple

other wagons were "fine" or "good," and then proceeded to note vote them. I know the wagon went fast, but why did you stay on BBmolla?

[Dannflor]

Mostly his whole progression on me is ??? coming from scum.

His whole ISO is active sorting and questioning. Nothing I've seen from that has felt contrived or like it was pushing some agenda either

[Dannflor]

I also don't think scum pushes on me using something as complex as his specific meta with both me and xwing and then backs off of it so easily.

What push?

At first I thought maybe Dannflor was pushing xwing to see if they reacted in the same manner they did last game in Mewtaph's mini. I thought it was a weird push given the play here was really similar but figured I'd let it go.

I don't like the reason for the unvote on xwing, it feels like it could be contrived.

The wagon vote on BBmolla for an RVS self-vote is what set me over the edge.

VOTE: Dannflor

Predit: Xwing...nope.

-Slaxx

[Dannflor]

Wait, what?

He used a game that had just finished with both me and xwing in it to push on me because the behavior seemed different here as opposed to then. It was a very specific moment he was talking about and doesn't seem like something scum would think of to arbitrarily push on me. Even if he did pick something like that to push me for, I don't know why he basically drops it a bit later, especially when other people (like you) were voicing suspicion on me

[Dannflor]

At first I thought maybe Dannflor was pushing xwing to see if they reacted in the same manner they did last game in Mewtaph's mini. I thought it was a weird push given the play here was really similar but figured I'd let it go.

I don't like the reason for the unvote on xwing, it feels like it could be contrived.

The wagon vote on BBmolla for an RVS self-vote is what set me over the edge.

VOTE: Dannflor

Predit: Xwing...nope.

-Slaxx

What about #76 makes you feel that way?

@Xwing: It’s Slaxx.

I’m in a hydra.

-Slaxx

Okay. I think I get the xwing stuff.

Do we want to wait to talk about the BB stuff until he responds?

-Slaxx

Can someone sell me on the Dannflor wagon? I think I like it but am having a hard time putting words to why.

Nah.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: OverKill

I took a day off and reread the thread. I was confbiasing on Dann and U2 talked me out of it. There is a lot of LAMIST coming from OK with basically no reasoning for any of the few stances they have taken.

Also, there's one really bad vote over the past page or two that indicates a possible buddy. But we will let that stew for a bit.

-Slaxx

He wasn't tunneling but it was definitely a non RVS push. He changes his mind later, but if he's scum, idk why he'd suddenly switch to Overkill when he had reasons to push me and there was some support for my wagon.

[Dannflor]

He made 1 post about it. How is that a push?

I mean we have different definitions of push ig

It wasn't a hard push but he was scum reading and voting for me, what do I call that

[Dannflor]

It call it someone voting for you. But okay.

Okay, this just just feels like semantics, but I guess you're right. It definitely wasn't as much of a push as I originally perceived it being.

I didn't read this part.
Wouldn't town push with an agenda?

No? I feel like we're just gonna argue semantics again so I'll just try to explain myself w different words

Town just wants to scum hunt and town hunt, I guess you could call that an agenda. His posts don't ping as contrived in that sense, it feels like he's actively sorting people.

What specifically pings you guys about his posts?

[Dannflor]

hm also Creature was one of the people who voted Micc yesterday and was still on him at the end of the day

Might not mean much but I don't remember Creature being super widely town read or anything

Micc, if you think scum was on the back half of the wagon, and you obviously thought BBmolla was a great wagon, why aren't you voting him?

[Dannflor]

I'm not sure how you're equating me being willing to lock down other reads to being scum.

Was I not clear? It reads like fence sitting. You call multiple wagons good and wait for the approval or encouragement of others before you're willing to move.

You also do nothing to keep pushing BBMolla or convince others to vote him besides complain

[Dannflor]

Slaxx and I finally got a chance to compare reads this evening for a couple minutes, so here's where we're at. Apparently I'm in a verbose mood this evening, so I spoiled this monster for your convenience.

Spoiler: Town Reads

Town, in no particular order:
Xwing - Slaxx is reading Xwing town. I've got Xwing as a light town read, but I haven't seen anything super indicative here yet. That read augments a sheep of slaxx on this slot because of his experience with Xwing

Creature - Apparently creature is an easy read, but I don't know the tell yet. Slaxx has creature town.

Micc - We are both reading Micc as town. I shared his reaction in 62. I think his BBmolla is both reasonable and well within an average town range. His read on creature probably makes sense from either alignment if creature is considered an easy read. Slight concern that the town read on us is a pocket attempt given the lack of reasons for either town read. Lynch pool is people playing - let's call it whimsically - and Dannflor which could be a cop out but also isn't a terrible world view given both D1 play and the nature of the setup incentivizing mechanical sorting of non straight forward reads. And I can't argue with his null reads at the time 186 was written, plus the reasoning seems fine in 204.

Vedith - I'm townreading Vedith and Slaxx is null on him. He's a.. whimsical player but I town read his turn around during the setup spec discussion. I town read his reaction test laden play slightly. I town read 208, 211, 220 and 222 Basically every post where he's playing with a more serious demeanor I town read.

Dr. Worm - we both read dr. worm as town. I like 196 and for correcting me on his PP read in 163. I wouldn't take this read to the bank right now, but I do believe that Dr Worm is posting AI-content in spite of his play style and will only become more readable with time.

Spoiler: Dissonance Reads

Dissonance Reads:
We disagree on BBMolla. I see a lot of his play being personality-indicative rather than AI, including his self-vote. (self esteem issues? jk <3 ) That said, I think his entire game so far is within an average scum range when personality is taken into account. This isn't a strong read because I don't think anything is necessarily outside of his town range, but I think this play probably comes from scum!molla more often than it comes from town!molla.
Slaxx disagrees, tho, and has BBmolla as a town read.

Spoiler: Scum Reads

Scum:
0verki11 is the scummiest person in the game right now. Others have shied away from calling his underwhelming wall post scummy, but it's reaally scummy. Announce a wall post and then spend the majority of it on setup spec is pretty meh to begin with. Saying that he's doing it for himself like he's doing his make-up (nothing wrong with that) and then doing it is even worse. And his reasoning for how it was a reminder felt fabricated. That post and his response to me in 172 and 218 are the entirety of the content from this slot. Slaxx agrees this slot is scummy.

PP - Slaxx thinks PP's iso is terrible. I don't see anything that looks like game solving or is in another way town-indicative. And I don't like the evasiveness around my questions.

DT - We're here by POE, lol

Spoiler: Null Reads

Null:
Dannflor: I pushed in our pt, and slaxx is coming around to Dannflor's more recent posts being townie. Slaxx thinks he is overexplaining, but that paper in GD suggests that long sentence structure is town-indicative, and man has some long sentences. Especially if one were to connect sentences that start with "but" to the prior sentence that it really should be a part of. E.g, 176. I feel like an asshole even bringing up this read... but stats. And yes, I know, 176 is a TWTBAW argument, but I think he's like halfway down the path to my read, which is that a lot of molla's play is personality-indicative. We're clearly conflicted about this slot rn.

p.edit guess i don't need to do the vote ;P

Did you miss this post? A good reads list imo that did express strong scum reads, one on Overkill before he was hammered. He seems pretty confident in scum!overkill here, so I don't get your point.

Although Draco, reading this back, how did you guys progress from Micc as a pretty strong town so who you want to push today? Why not PP since he was your guys' second scum read?

[Dannflor]

I was wondering if Scum would use Creature voting Micc as reason for Micc Scum.

don't think it's a strong reason

missed that Creature was down on Draco, that's a good point, Creature didn't do a bunch else

[Dannflor]

I'm confident that Molla is town.

something I actually agree with Vedith on

[Dannflor]

i doubt it's both of them right now

honestly i think it's draco and micc and they're crossvoting but im less sure on micc

Was Draco your super confident scum read? Why?

[Dannflor]

In retrospect, I really don't like how Vedith went from asking me where i implied OK was obv!scum to "showing 100% confidence." In the moment I wasn't sure where the 100% thing came from, but in retrospect, he pulled it out of his ass.

-U2

So, I agree here. However, I don't know it's necessarily AI for Vedith, but I do think it's a sign he's tunneled up the wrong tree.

0verki11 is the scummiest person in the game right now. Others have shied away from calling his underwhelming wall post scummy, but it's reaally scummy. Announce a wall post and then spend the majority of it on setup spec is pretty meh to begin with. Saying that he's doing it for himself like he's doing his make-up (nothing wrong with that) and then doing it is even worse. And his reasoning for how it was a reminder felt fabricated. That post and his response to me in 172 and 218 are the entirety of the content from this slot. Slaxx agrees this slot is scummy.

The reason I say this is Draco never showed certain read of Scum until after the hammer. And the push was pretty weak and hardly existent anyway.

Like I don't think you can read that and say Draco never had a solid read of scum before the hammer. The switch to "100%" phrasing is weird, and Draco's confidence ensuing the hammer doesn't read to me that he knew what the flip was going to be, but I think it's just more of Vedith's pursuing specific phrasing and semantics which he also did with me. Could be town trying to really dig into the details of things and getting reactions or scum misinterpreting things and trying to make points where there are none. I don't know enough about Vedith's playstyle to say it's super AI in either direction.

Your play sucks and is full of ate that makes you seem uberscummy. I kinda want to lynch you just so I don't have to keep reading it.

Huh? His most recent posts are (admittedly bad) AtE, but there was none of that when he came in today nor in D1. I'm just not jiving with the reads of Draco because his "play sucks" either because his D1 play never pinged me as poor.

Overkill is at 3 votes when the first two posts come

The first one is a nudge for people to reevaluate BBmolla rather than go to OK
The second is begging for someone to give him a reason he can use to join the counter wagon.
The third, after we put OK to L-2, is a softball to OK, and another stab at *any* other wagon
And the last one is something I've seen from scum - like Pintu and there's another somewhere in my past games - where scum are low key salty that the wagon on their partner went quick, depriving them of the opportunity to shift it off scum. They just can't quite repress that emotion

-U2

Draco, while I agree with you, and I believe the u2/Slaxx thought process it took to get here (that reads pretty genuine), I can't help but feel like you're just copying my case exactly from the start of the day on Micc. What do you think specifically of his posts so far today?

i'm actually kind of reluctant to strongarm in a game where you guys hit scum d1

but worm is the best lynch ToDay

I thought Draco was your near 100% confident read? I'm confused how worm takes priority over him for you

I'd like Micc to take some actual stances on this game, post some reads that aren't just asking people for the go ahead. The progression at the end of yesterday + OK's flip just sticks out in mind so much and if Micc is actually town there he needs to actually start scum hunting. I'm especially curious if he keeps pushing the BBmolla wagon over anything else.

[Dannflor]

I never had an 100% scumread tbh I just hoped someone would react scummily to that statement

sad

Still, you had Draco as lolwolf in your last reads list. Does a worm flip give more info or are you just more confident in a red flip there now?

[Dannflor]

Can someone sell me on the Dannflor wagon? I think I like it but am having a hard time putting words to why.

Nah.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: OverKill

I took a day off and reread the thread. I was confbiasing on Dann and U2 talked me out of it. There is a lot of LAMIST coming from OK with basically no reasoning for any of the few stances they have taken.

Also, there's one really bad vote over the past page or two that indicates a possible buddy. But we will let that stew for a bit.

-Slaxx

This interaction alone makes Micc the better lynch than us and to not see it is just dumb.

If we were scum here we take the out and double on Dannflor to avoid OK, or, you know, ask for the out onto another wagon like Micc did.

Micc completely softballed OK up until lynch. This isn't rocket science.

Sorry if I spooked you with the marathon game RC, but I don't buss if I don't need to. It was imperative there, I don't do it D1 here. We were doing fine stance-wise within the town and had people open to non-OK wagons.

We did this because were were trying to lynch scum.

End of fucking story.

-Slaxx

^^^^

This is basically what I was trying to explain to Vedith earlier when I said I liked Draco's progression on me. The fact that they gave up on the push on me so easily just doesn't make sense as scum. There was support for it, yet instead he chooses to jump on his buddies wagon? It doesn't make sense to let go of the scum read on me and it makes less sense to choose to join the OK wagon instead of pushing other wagons that were probably still viable at the time.

[Dannflor]

Don't have too much else to comment on the last few pages. I'm waiting for Micc to return and respond to stuff but he seems to have disappeared which is unfortunate. This slot needs to actually do something though and his progression yesterday is still the worst out of any slot in the game imo

Vedith's push on Draco is in bad faith, not actually looking at the chain of events of Draco's D1 progression and twisting Draco's behavior late day one. you're confbiasing extremely here Vedith or trying to drive a mislynch

PP/Draco just feels like town v town getting pissed at each other for basic miscommunications.

[Dannflor]

Dr Worm what are your reads on players not named Vedith?

[Dannflor]

Dr Worm what are your reads on players not named Vedith?

MY BRAIN JUST TOLD ME XWANG IS TROWN!!
PONGYPOWER still TROWN!!
BBMOOLA TROWN!!
HEART says DRACO TROWN but BRAIN not sure!! same with DANNFLO!!

PROBLEM is my HEART says ALL lynch wagon is TROWN!! TOO MUCH TROWN!!

What do you think of the Micc and Draco wagons? You haven't commented on them at all

[Dannflor]

I'm not sure why Town would get worried about being lynched this early with the setup.
Draco seems more worried about being lynched imo and that's scummy.

Maybe? I personally feel like Draco's done a lot today that people are just dismissing. A lot of the times when I see scum attacked they go full defensive mode but forget that they're also supposed to be scum hunting and finding who is town. Town will defend themselves of course but also still be trying to sort and progress the game even if they are going to die.

Some of Draco's AtE is icky but I'm not convinced it's not just frustrated town and he still seems intent on solving the game regardless of the amount of pressure on him

I'm also not seeing the discussion between Slaxx and U2 in #504 as faked

[Dannflor]

I mean, if you've got a compelling case for other slots, let's do it.

I'm hard pressed to reevaluate micc without that input, though.
-U2

[Dannflor]

Scum two:

Dannflor

First major point of contention here is the sheer lack of content from the slot.

Despite the fact that Dannflor ended up on the correct scum lynch D1 (which I consider relatively meaningless in this situation where I know that there was almost certainly at least 1 busser) they have a lot less content in general than I would expect them to and that's the first major reason I've been interested in them.

Beyond that a lot of the reasons that I think that they are scum individually are hard to do justice outside of just saying that my gut says that it's right.

But what I can talk about is how I think that their associations are transparently scum vs scum and I will do that now.

I mean I just don't really know what to say to this

You have

1. Content/Activity
2. Gut
3. Associations w Vedith

For the first point, I'm not really sure what you mean? Could you specifically quote posts of mine you feel lack content or are just posting for the sake of posting (which is what I think? you're getting at here)? If it's activity related, I will freely admit I've not been as invested in this game as others, and combined with my lack of free time the last few weeks means my overall posting might be lower here, but I have been trying my best to make it count when I get the time/energy.

And I can't respond to 2/3 because you can't/won't case them yet. It just seems like such a weak read for you to be so certain that you've solved the game.

Your play meshes exactly with what I would expect with wolf buddies with Dannflor here.
Vedith's play... does not at all mesh with what I would expect from wolf buddies with Dannflor here.

Also, help me understand this because maybe I'm misinterpreting. Vedith's play doesn't mesh with what you'd expect him and I being partners to be? I thought half your case on me was associations.

I still think the best play is what you said earlier: Lynch Micc, if he flips town, have him investigate me. If he flips scum, the last partner is likely among Vedith/RC. Probably Vedith over RC because I highly doubt RC would be so brazen in his defense of Micc if he's buddies with him.

[Dannflor]

This is some lovely flavor nsg

[Dannflor]

That was a really unfortunate end of day phase in the end, though I'm a little surprised those both ended up flipping town

It means I have to revisit my reads because while I still believe the Micc/Junko slot is most likely scum I'm having a little trouble seeing a partner right off the bat.

[Dannflor]

less color variety rainbow reads list \o/

Draco

- I feel like a lot of attention is going to go here next after the flips but I... still think this is town? Re-ISOing Draco today has just strengthened this read honestly. For starters, I don't think #793 ever actually comes from scum. PP is town for this too but (obviously) that's irrelevant. Basically, scum doesn't hop on this wagon like this ever. Instead of staying on the safer Micc wagon Draco shifted in a rather blunt way to a mislynch. That move makes Draco one of the prime investigation targets that night (Vedith probably chose PP for similar reasons), which compounds with the fact he'd already faced a good amount of pressure/suspicion. I don't know why a scum!Draco here wouldn't just stay on the wagon he was already on and let the lynch go through without him, it would've attracted a lot less attention. I suppose it's possible he thought he was already doomed and wanted to ensure a mislynch would go through, but that seems highly questionable to me

I still don't think the conversation in #504 is faked. It's a very high level of detail and I don't think it's a tactic scum uses to try and save their ass. I town read his entire attitude throughout the game, particularly in posts like #517 where despite being under pressure he's still showing a drive to solve the game and asks RC to challenge his reasoning on certain slots. Overall, he seems like somewhat frustrated town that's still trying to solve despite being under pressure.

BBMolla

- So, a couple people have said my argument for BBMolla is just "too wolfy to be wolf" and not a great basis. I guess that's part of it, but I also don't think there's scum motivation in entering the game like he did and not reading the thread. I'm not trying to read effort as alignment indicative, but I do think his initial vote coming into the game comes from a town place, and his lack of detailed followup does not come from a scum place. Scum would want to milk the shit out of that and analyzing people's reactions to his self vote in order to appear towny.

Other than that, I do think there's just some things BBMolla has said that scum just... don't? #173 and #197 are the best examples of this. Don't think scum admits to skimming the thread, at least not so readily. Don't think scum tosses out a free town read on what could be a lynch-baity slot depending on the player list's reactions to Dr Worm.

Oh also the fact that OK was one of the people who tried to invalidate my town read on BBmolla early makes me think it's correct

xwing

- Mixed on this slot. Kinda worried my early paranoia here was correct, and that I just gave xwing what they needed to be more familiarly town!xwing in my eyes. This is probably a slot I should do a proper meta dive on when I get the time, because a lot of my gut feelings on this slot comes from a sample size of 1 game I completed with them.

Reading back over the previous day, I was looking for people that were playing *not* to be investigated. Especially as a potential Micc partner, xwing really fits this bill imo. #606 and #663 ping me the most. In the first, xwing soft-defends Micc and then votes BBmolla, someone I'm pretty sure is town but also someone no else had really expressed interest in voting. It's a vanity vote, especially when the main two wagons of the day (excluding the surprise Vedith one) had already been established. BBmolla was never gonna be the lynch yesterday, and it's not like xwing really tries to sway people over to this wagon, which they should be doing if they really believe this slot is scum. It's too safe of a vote.

The second post also reads like someone not trying very hard to get people to vote bbmolla, and from my experience with xwing I feel like they're a stronger player than that.

1) reason for scum read is based on style? but also says they can't read the style
2) ignores the explanation bbmolla did give for voting micc that was pretty valid
3) fair ig, but had already been discussed
4) not a reason

Overall, just a very weak vanity vote that ignores the main wagons and doesn't really try to start a new one or take any strong stances. From what I know, I feel like xwing can be stronger than this as town, but tonally, they're very similar to my meta with them. next thing I do here is a proper meta dive and try to do it as objectively as possible

Dr Worm

- The Worm pinged me on reread for mostly the same reasons xwing did. It's a vanity vote that looks more like an attempt to avoid being investigated than actually looking for scum. Worm's reasoning for his vote is much stronger than xwings. However, the reasoning was essentially setup preflip by Worm in D1, so I don't think a scum!worm setting up a place to go D2 that doesn't look too suspicious is out of the question. His reads on the two most likely wagons to go through yesterday were "Draco is town by heart but brain not sure" (fence sitty but doesn't invite suspicion) and "micc scum by poe". Neither are particularly strong stances and especially if the Draco lynch is town it's a good way to avoid an investigation there.

#650 kinda does the same thing except it's trying to lowkey pocket the person he's voting? It seems like a useless post to make otherwise as it's not enough for him to actually change his vote. I also find it weird that Dr Worm doesn't question or try to poke at the Draco push more considering he had him as a town lean. However, I still town read a few of his earlier observations on specific players that I've mentioned before. Since I think Micc is very likely scum, I think it's likely only 1 of xwing/Worm is scum

Micc/Junko

- I've explained why already. Still think this is probably the best lynch and should have happened yesterday. I'll vote here in 24 hours, just want to give a chance for others to post reads after flips and give time for me to get a few more of my thoughts together. I don't really trust people won't just speed lynch

tldr:

micc/junko still good lynch - one of dr worm or xwing as prob partner

draco/bbmolla town (and pp obviously)

[Dannflor]

what do you think are your major contributions in this game for this particular day, and why?

also xwing what was the purpose of this question?

[Dannflor]

I'll come up and say Mr Worm, PP and xwing are town

btw i suspect creature was killed because this is right

{RC, PP, xwing, worm}
molla ????
{Micc, Draco}
{Vedith, Dannflor} btw

this seems relevant. Added note: RC later said that he had micc too low on the list

-U2

Possibly? I think RC was more likely killed because Vedith said he’d investigate him. I’m not putting a ton of stock in his reads because he was both wrong in his solve, you’re pretty confident town, and Micc is pretty confident scum

[Dannflor]

JunkoChan, town reads? Reads on slots other than Dr Worm?

[Dannflor]

Possibly? I think RC was more likely killed because Vedith said he’d investigate him. I’m not putting a ton of stock in his reads because he was both wrong in his solve, you’re pretty confident town, and Micc is pretty confident scum

yeah, im sure vedith had something to do with the kill. Not arguing that.

Same question to you as Dr. Worm, though.

Who is scum!Junko's partner?

-U2

One of either Dr Worm or xwing imo.

[Dannflor]

One of either Dr Worm or xwing imo.

any association based tells for these, or just poe?

See post #809

[Dannflor]

U2, did you and Slaxx get a chance to reconvene over the night at all and exchange reads/sort further in light of the flip?

[Dannflor]

Dannfloor: this is town dann gameplay no doubts, he is usually more fency as scum

Have we played together before besides in Winter's Sacrifice? What do you know about my scum game? Or have you meta'd me?

because this seems like a lazy attempt to pocket me tbh

[Dannflor]

Oh unless you're drawing from marathon games, which I guess that might be a fair assessment, not sure those should be the basis of a meta read though

If bbmolla is not the partner then maybe it's draco but that's a stretch

Why is Draco a stretch when you also said they could be mafia?

[Dannflor]

BBMolla - So, a couple people have said my argument for BBMolla is just "too wolfy to be wolf" and not a great basis. I guess that's part of it, but I also don't think there's scum motivation in entering the game like he did and not reading the thread. I'm not trying to read effort as alignment indicative, but I do think his initial vote coming into the game comes from a town place, and his lack of detailed followup does not come from a scum place. Scum would want to milk the shit out of that and analyzing people's reactions to his self vote in order to appear towny.

Other than that, I do think there's just some things BBMolla has said that scum just... don't? #173 and #197 are the best examples of this. Don't think scum admits to skimming the thread, at least not so readily. Don't think scum tosses out a free town read on what could be a lynch-baity slot depending on the player list's reactions to Dr Worm.

Oh also the fact that OK was one of the people who tried to invalidate my town read on BBmolla early makes me think it's correct

[Dannflor]

I've meta'ed you as well as some othe hard-to-reads like worm and PP, but meta is useless for PP cuz he is already conf-town

Why do you consider me hard-to-read?

[Dannflor]

We're still lynching this. I'd like to give xwing a chance to get back from v/la and respond to things/give reads first, however.

[Dannflor]

Also PP needs to post reads cause he probably dies tonight

[Dannflor]

Spoiler: wall ahead

not sure what to think of dann's 809..i dont recall him writing big-ass walls like these on multiple people but maybe my memory is wrong..first thought i would say it's townie for me..i dont really disagree on the major points he has presented..

im honestly annoyed with his waffling on me that's making his PoE unnecessarily harder for him..i feel like i've always bared my soul in my games so this kinda feels a bit disappointing from my end..though admittedly this game im finding it hard to scum read people (aside from D1)..i mean i was the first on the OK wagon and never got off it, no one was even minding OK enough that time to bother voting..and dann YOU followed ME into THAT vote.. @_@

anyway no one else before JC concluded bb is scummy for their own reasons..im not going to convince anyone if he doesnt post much anyway and majority of you have him as town..i already detailed how i scum hunt and he's in my PoE mainly because i cant get a strong read on him..i find i have a tendency to town read everyone, so i just lynch my weakest town reads and i find i usually have success with this..i might be wrong, but it's either bb or dr worm for me rn..

im gonna need more convincing for a jc/micc before i can consider that wagon..also, if majority of us were really doubting jc/micc, we should have gone for micc/JC BEFORE vedith and have mic/JC investigate someone else..i already expressed that vedith is townie based on our 1v1..i feel we semi-wasted a lynch, saving grace was the PP investigate..

im okay on a dr worm wagon..i can see how the reaction test and hammer vote could be from scum..i pegged him town mostly because of his one post that seemed super duper townie..

im not joining a draco/dann wagon for now..i feel both of them should be easy town reads for me, not sure why i cant confidently strong read them this game..i believe they are town right now..

TLDR:
im slightly annoyed at dann but think he's town (not personal, just in game..)
im slightly butt hurt at dann's susp, but im town.. (not your fault dann, we're good..)
draco seems town, but i cant get a confident enough of a read to call it strong..
i believe it could be bb/dr worm scum team.. (dont ask for assoc, i dont know, i dont hunt like this)..
JC at worst is null..i'll lynch her after bb/dr worm..

call it a vanity vote or whatever, if there's no good case against someone else that can convince me, my vote is still gonna be here..
VOTE: bbmolla

I have good reasons to suspect you. I understand you were the first on the OK wagon, but I don't think it impossible you moved there and then felt stuck as everyone else started piling on.

In a way, my method of scum hunting is similar to yours now, where I had too many town reads and I have to revisit which of those don't hold up or who I was maybe town reading too easily. You and Dr Worm are the ones I think I've been too hasty to give a free pass to, especially in light of D2 actions

regardless though, Micc/Junko really should have been the lynch yesterday and I don't want this slot living another day

VOTE: Junko

[Dannflor]

this is scum spew

[Dannflor]

a little worried if this flips scum that Junko came in distancing Dr Worm and is trying to make xwing a mislynch for tomorrow

[Dannflor]

How often does town!RC whiff completely on his reads, I wonder.

-U2

My theory is that RC's initial instincts when he came into the game (particularly in his suspicion towards Dr Worm) were correct, but he started thinking the game was too easy and overthought his reads. I've almost done the same when I've felt the game was too easy, and was wrong to second guess myself. I don't know a ton about RC but he strikes me as the kind of player that might happen too. His case on me largely hinged on Vedith flipping scum, so I feel like he got strongly caught up in his scum!vedith theory and it just skewed his whole view on the game.

that said, i now feel like i can't trust dann this game..
u2 confusion/waffling on my slot comes from a genuine place..im pretty confident of this..
i cant say the same about dann..he has always read me right..might be coz of how i played this game or whatever, but i feel i've played the game as i've always had..
early on the game, he was "cautious" around me, playing buddy and sheeping my votes..and saying words like "at the risk of you thinking im further buddying you..+ town points for paranoia etc etc".. [paraphrased]..
now, i just feel he's taking advantage of u2's susp to turn against me..

I don't really think I've been waffling on your slot. My read has shifted but I've been very transparent on my read on you all game and provided the reasons for why/when it has changed. I'm being especially sure to make sure I revisit my reads and critically evaluate them often this game in large part because of an experience I recently had in another game, Merchant's Daughter, where someone who I'd written off as an easy conf-town early on ended up winning in lylo. Coincidentally, in that game I also read AtE as town indicative when I shouldn't have. I do think your tone and reaction to my mixed read on you is fairly towny, and in tone sounds like the town xwing I know. (though I'm being careful not to put too much stock in this)

I'm confused why you don't trust me because "I've always read you right before?" We've played one game together and I correctly read you in that game yes, but that was also a very easy straightforward game.

Overall, I think it's more likely Dr Worm as a possible partner for Junko than you. Mostly because of this post:

Xwing is one of the few actually addresing the elephant in the room

This + a few other comments she's made about xwing feel like REALLY obvious setup to make xwing look like a potential partner. I think Junko knows she gets lynched 99% of the time here, and this reads far too blatant. If this flips scum, I actually have a really hard time seeing xwing as a partner because of this. It's still

possible

and I guess you could argue WIFOM, but the simpler explanation is that scum!Junko is trying to set up a mislynch here.

[Dannflor]

why

[Dannflor]

BBMolla - So, a couple people have said my argument for BBMolla is just "too wolfy to be wolf" and not a great basis. I guess that's part of it, but I also don't think there's scum motivation in entering the game like he did and not reading the thread. I'm not trying to read effort as alignment indicative, but I do think his initial vote coming into the game comes from a town place, and his lack of detailed followup does not come from a scum place. Scum would want to milk the shit out of that and analyzing people's reactions to his self vote in order to appear towny.

Other than that, I do think there's just some things BBMolla has said that scum just... don't? #173 and #197 are the best examples of this. Don't think scum admits to skimming the thread, at least not so readily. Don't think scum tosses out a free town read on what could be a lynch-baity slot depending on the player list's reactions to Dr Worm.

Oh also the fact that OK was one of the people who tried to invalidate my town read on BBmolla early makes me think it's correct

[Dannflor]

only thing he's done outside of early game is hard push Micc/Junko, which I think is probably scum

[Dannflor]

not related to the game at all, but why do you hate IC?

i feel like it would be a fun position

[Dannflor]

Sorry I missed you xwing, been really busy lately.

I do want an answer to Dr Worm's question when you return though. I might agree with your read, but not following your train of thought or why you felt the need to voice that read specifically

[Dannflor]

VOTE: xwing

hi how are you reading people + elaborate on xwing?

I have a really hard time seeing a junko/xwing team

[Dannflor]

My main problem with xwing is that I feel like I've made a pretty good case for town!Molla and yet they're still voting there over like Dr Worm, their other sus slot. I guess it also doesn't feel like xwing is really trying to actively sort those slots, despite having a lot of weak reads.

However, the associations from Junko's side read purposeful, to the point where it looked like she was just trying to frame xwing

[Dannflor]

I’m leaning Dann and U2 is leaning Xwing.

When I have desktop tomorrow I’ll review. We just need two townreads we can agree on and we win.

Why are you guys still this divisive when Slaxx apparently has a very strong xwing read? Have you guys had a chance to discuss these with each other at all?

[Dannflor]

Also, I feel best about Molla town right now tbh

I would nominate him for the pool of "two townreads we can all agree on" - except ig xwing kinda puts a damper on that

[Dannflor]

DR WORM"S HEART says XWANG is town but then NOT SURE who is BAD with JANKO!!

Are you leaning anywhere now for a partner now that you've had time to think about it?

JANKO ARE YOU STILL HERE TO TALK TO DR WORM??

What did you want to ask Junko about before she flipped?

[Dannflor]

Might be worthwhile to do some more VCA, so I'll try and get on that if I get the time/energy later tonight. I know it has been done to death, but with two scum flips now we have a ton of information to work with potentially

[Dannflor]

i voted bb over worm because i had worm with a weeeeee bit more town points than bb..

What are your town points for Worm?

[Dannflor]

@dann what are your thoughts on Dr. Worm?

I cased him yesterday, thought he was slightly more likely to be a partner for Micc/JC over xwing. The rest of D3 didn't really change that, and I'm more solid on town!xwing now. Dr Worm falls as my top scum pretty naturally via POE, but that worries me? I didn't come into today focused on Dr Worm because I definitely think it's worthwhile to reevaluate my other reads and make sure I'm not confbiasing. But I'm pretty confident on BBmolla and xwing town at this point.

I second guessed you momentarily because the dichotomy in #977 seemed pretty convenient? Like it gave you an out to go either way depending on how the tides turned, but the progression in #989 makes sense and I think I was just getting paranoid.

The other thing that had me paranoid was the lull in activity/atmosphere of apathy that seemed to be surrounding the game. Wasn't sure if that was because scum had given up or if they were happy with the way things were progressing. Probably not something I should try to read into though.

[Dannflor]

has anyone played with scum!dann before?
lastly, i dont want to vote until everyone has come in and said their piece..

No one here has played with scum!me as far as I know.

For transparency, here is my most recent scum game: viewtopic.php?p=10756824&user_select%5B ... #p10756824

I'm capable of at least somewhat adequately mimicking my town game and behaving townie enough to avoid lynch so I'd rather you weren't too quick to town read me based on just me "seeming townie"

There are probably specific tells you can find for scum!me but I shouldn't be the one to analyze that

[Dannflor]

DRACO WAS TROWN in my MIND but LESS CERTAINN NOW!!

Why?

[Dannflor]

DRACO do YOUS THINK SCUMTREAM planned WORM TO SOLO WIN through 2 BUSES??

NO-WAY HO-ZAY!!

What? I don't think it's out of the question

Votecount 1.Final

Target	Wagon
0verki11 (6)	xwing (207), Dannflor (214), Draco Lucky (236), PenguinPower (248), BBMolla (258), Dr Worm (281)
Micc (1)	Creature (143)
Dannflor (1)	Vedith (211)
BBMolla (1)	Micc (134)
Not Voting (2)	0verki11, DoubtingThomas

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. 0verki11 has been lynched.

Votecount 3.Final

Target	Wagon
JunkoChan (4)	BBMolla (806), Dr Worm (817), Dannflor (854), PenguinPower (931)
Dr Worm (1)	JunkoChan (813)
BBMolla (1)	xwing (847)
Not Voting (1)	Draco Lucky

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. JunkoChan has been lynched.

Mod Notes:

xwing is V/LA on weekends.

There are only two people alive that WEREN'T on both scum wagons: xwing and Draco

Out of BBMolla, Dr Worm, and me, you were probably the most widely town read of us? I mean, your slot is susceptible to policy lynches, but I think this player list is good enough to avoid that. I think there was enough suspicion directed towards me and BB that that's a very viable strategy you guys could have gone for, whether you planned the bus or not.

[Dannflor]

ANYBIDY who VOTES DR WORM plaese ALSO ADD WHO you want VENGECOPED by WORM!!

This might actually be a bad idea?

If you're town, tomorrow is lylo. If you manage to hit someone scum doesn't suspect we have a free IC in lylo, which makes the game dramatically easier. If we telegraph who the potential investigation is, and are wrong both in the lynch and the investigation, we enter lylo with three unknown players.

I haven't done the actual math on this but I feel like it would be better for you to pick between two choices 50/50 and try to hit whoever has suspicion and scum would be unlikely to NK, maybe like between me and xwing? I don't wanna give away an IC in lylo if we can't help it

Then again, I doubt it matters because I'm thinking you just said this for town cred without thinking it through and are scum

[Dannflor]

I have a whole bunch of stuff on Dann I can post if you wish, but I keep gyrating on my read. There's some heavy town-Dann stuff in there in Dann -> Micc interactions but some heavy scum Dann stuff from Micc-> Dann interactions. Since we know Micc is scum I am giving dann the BotD and willing to defer to U2 on Dr. Worm and assume Micc was trying to set up a Dann ML later on.

Hey Slaxx

Is there stuff you don't like from me in my posts alone or is it all in the interactions? If the former, I'd wanna engage with you on it before the day ends because I feel like it's fairly important to get out there if somehow we're wrong on Dr Worm

I'll vote next time I get online and am able to see answers/responses to things

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Worm

[Dannflor]

IF DR WORM SCUM WHY NO CONTERWAGON??

What?

I mean BB is voting xwing and that's technically the most counterwagon we can get with 5 players remaining

I don't understand. There's one scum left so there are no buddies alive to push counterwagons. The fact that you aren't pushing anyone strongly isn't a strong defense either, particularly in a setup where scum is punished for drawing attention on a lynch

[Dannflor]

oh oops didn't refresh page

[Dannflor]

I'm fine with hammer

maybe wait for BB to post reads since he might be NK if this is actually town

[Dannflor]

I’d probably wager going without water for two days that it wasn’t x-Wong

that's bad for your health man don't do it

[Dannflor]

I feel like Worm shouldn't be so apparently ready to die

on the other hand, if he was town, I feel like he would have just self hammered at this point to get the investigation - especially considering he's not trying to do anything else

[Dannflor]

lowkey worried if this is wrong that draco has been setting me up for a endgame lylo 1v1 all game, since that's the only scum I can see out of the remaining. But it's not likely at all and I'll just cross that bridge if it comes to it - or I'll just get invest and be IC for lylo anyway, scum probably wouldn't want to nk me at this point so I'm a safeish investigation

rlly doubt this is a town flip at this point tho

[Dannflor]

vote: xwing

[Dannflor]

rlly wish I had been iced like worm said he would but whatev

Things are clear now

[Dannflor]

Tbh I’m low key intoxicated and not at home but I will real post in like 24 hours

B.B. I believe in you bby

[Dannflor]

dann played a good scum day, i only started majorly suspecting him at the latter parts, specifically during my post 880..in my iso you'll see im waffling on him a lot, as he's usually an easy town read for me..i thought he was sheeping/pocketing me early on (which, indeed he was..but hindsight is 20/20)..i think i should have trusted my instincts more..

lol

I played a good town game. Ok, maybe not perfect because I didn't obv town as much as I could have early on, but I attribute that mostly to lack of time that coincided with this game. The fact that I lowkey suspected all three members of the scum team D1 has me feeling really good though

I ended up clearing you later, but that was mostly because of Slaxx's insistence that you were town. I trust him as a player and was fairly confident his slot was town so his read on you shook me.

Turns out my gut instinct was correct:

sorry micc, i didnt get what you're saying..
are you suggesting that we should have a consensus target on who we want to investigate?
scum would just kill that guy then right?
sorry didnt really get what you were saying even after multiple reads, can you kindly reword it for me?

@dr worm: what's your plan?

@creature, why is it a great start??

@bbmolla, why the self vote? you need some help there?
VOTE: bbmolla

This post pinged me hard at the very beginning of the game just because it was such a large departure from the meta I had on xwing.

For comparison, here is xwing's first post in the other game I've played with him where he was town:

Spoiler:

im here..not finding much to comment on atm..

Haschels tryharding reads town

i will agree for now..

It's too elaborate to fake

I mean it's not that hard. I have only played one game.

I'm not liking this hardcore defence of me. Feels a bit like trying way too hard to find townieness from what I said. As if he

knows

I'm town.

VOTE: Dannflor

i agree it seems like dann is *trying* to pocket, but his later posts seems fine..

I always believed that naked votes during RVS are Status quo for noob mafia

I naked vote in RVS frequently as either alignment. It's no big deal.

for me, naked votes are NAI this early too..

Gamma is null at best and slightly scummy for not following the game closely enough.
It's not the subject of the vote that I take issue with. It's that it's naked after Dann said he thinks scum are more inclined to post reasons with their votes than not.

@gamma ^
what do you think?

town!xwing on entrance is a lot less agenda driven, he's cautious and sends out feelers and frankly just fence sits. Furthermore, town!xwing was extremely hesitant to vote and didn't even place down his first vote until post #198 in that game when he became more confident. Contrast that to his entrance in this game, it's like night in day. Here he comes in much more aggressively hiding behind a guise of looking productive while asking (what I pointed out at the time to be) a lot of useless questions. Then he couples this empty aggression with a vote on the bbmolla wagon, despite the fact that town!xwing refused to vote until page 8 in Winter's Sacrifice due to having no strong scum reads. The play style and agenda behind entering the game is just so different

Granted, that's meta based off of one game, but it's what set me off on xwing at the start and I think I was right and Slaxx was just paranoid.

Also big lol at "

i only started majorly suspecting him at the latter parts

"

true, you start throwing shade at me as soon as I post my reads at the beginning of the day and realize there were several problems with your play. But your sudden shift to a scum read on me is based entirely off the fact that I called you a mixed read? Your logic was that I should be able to read you easily, but we've only played one other game together (Winter's Sacrifice). I called you out on this later, so you backed off here:

@dann: maaaaaaan i dunno anymore..your latest post seemed townie and i didnt feel any malice/shading behind it..i cant find something inconsistent or untrue there..i thought we've been in more games but maybe im just recalling wrongly zzzzz.. @_@

[Dannflor]

Right now xwing is trying really hard to get you to see me as having a "good scum game" instead of actually looking for possible mistakes in my play because he knows he's kinda in a hole after the last few days. If you look at his iso it's not to hard to see some of his more unnatural moves, particularly his shifting read on me. When compared with his town play it feels very different. + his associatives are terrible (some reasoning for this is in my post #809)

[Dannflor]

look at his posturing before the end of the day, shading draco slot in case i got copped..guy knows how to cover his bases well..

This doesn't even make sense. Based on Dr Worms reads, he was never going to investigate BB or xwing (at least that's what he outwardly expressed). His doubts laid on me and Draco. Therefore, scum is forced into killing one of us. I got a little paranoid of Draco because if the game didn't end right there, I felt it was likely he'd been setting me up for a 1v1 with his constant shade towards me (again not due to me play but due to associations with Micc that he never explained)

Obviously my paranoia got the better of me there, but it doesn't really make sense for me to be shading Draco as scum there. If I'm scum, I'm forced into pocketing him. Based on Worm's reads, there was a pretty good chance Worm would investigate either me or Draco. If I was scum, I'd know the game was over if I was investigated, which meant I would have had to play for the scenario where Draco is investigated. Why the hell would I be trying to antagonize a likely IC as scum in lylo??

[Dannflor]

also im biased coz i now know he's scum,

but his "drunken" last posts sound so LAMIST to me..with the "i shoulda been copped"

and "i believe in you bb"..to borrow PP's words..YUCK..

worm why would you clear bb..shoulda investigated me or dann for sure win..

Like I think you're actually just flinging shit and trying to get BB paranoid of me no matter what tactics you use

You were not in a great spot after the Junko flip. I ended up town reading you based on the weird behavior from Junko, but the flip did not put you in a good spot, and in fact made the U2 half of Draco suspect you very hard. You expected one of me or Draco to be investigated, and decided I'd be an easier lynch than Draco in lylo, particularly with Slaxx's suspicion of me this game and your "waffling" on me.

[Dannflor]

Like you link post #880 as proof that you've been suspecting me for some time, as if that means anything, but the post itself just doesn't make sense. It's even worse that you back down from it 5 posts later. You say U2's confusion on your slot is genuine, but lambast my mixed read on you for faulty reasons

[Dannflor]

Obviously my paranoia got the better of me there, but it doesn't really make sense for me to be shading Draco as scum there. If I'm scum, I'm forced into pocketing him. Based on Worm's reads, there was a pretty good chance Worm would investigate either me or Draco. If I was scum, I'd know the game was over if I was investigated, which meant I would have had to play for the scenario where Draco is investigated. Why the hell would I be trying to antagonize a likely IC as scum in lylo??

I guess if I was scum I would just be able to kill Draco too. But that still doesn't make sense? Either way, me suspecting him does absolutely 0 to help scum!me if you're investigated and regardless of the NK

[Dannflor]

XWANG still TROWN IN MY HEART!!

LAST SCUM COULD BE ANYBIDY ELSE!!

DRACO WAS TROWN in my MIND but LESS CERTAINN NOW!!

BBMOOLA also SEEMED TROWN!!

DR WORM CAN"T REMENBER ANUTHING ABOUT DANCEFLOOR!!

Proof of Dr Worm's reads going into the end of yesterday

- Me and Draco are seemingly the obvious candidates for investigation
- I get paranoid of Draco despite that being either a terrible risk for scum!me (going up against an IC in lylo) or just not helpful
- xwing probably doesn't consider BB for NK considering he's unlikely to be an IC
- xwing chooses Draco since he suspects xwing while I have xwing as pretty solid town
- killing Draco also serves double purpose of framing me

tbh I'm warming up to Worm's play here

I think the surprise investigation really threw xwing for a loop and it basically guaranteed an IC in lylo, which brings up our chances of winning from 33% to 50%

[Dannflor]

also, did you miss the giant wall post where draco got me as town? he even got this small funny tells in it...
you've been prepping me for lylo for a while..you cant afford to let slaxx live coz you're his next scum after worm..and you left bb alive coz he's the townie suspecting me..easy for you to sway someone who's already suspicious of me..
almost everyone who's died town read me..no one scum read me as much as bb and you (and u2, to an extent) did..i cant believe a novice player like me who's played like less than 10 games on this site is so good at this (this is my first and only forum mafia game site too)..go check my only scum game in this site, you'll see a very big difference..(click my wiki)..

This is a blatant misrep of my posts and read on you.

a little

worried if this flips scum that Junko came in distancing Dr Worm and is trying to make xwing a mislynch for tomorrow

This + a few other comments she's made about xwing feel like REALLY obvious setup to make xwing look like a potential partner. I think Junko knows she gets lynched 99% of the time here, and this reads far too blatant. If this flips scum, I actually have a really hard time seeing xwing as a partner because of this. It's still possible and I guess you could argue WIFOM, but

the simpler explanation is that scum!Junko is trying to set up a mislynch here

.

VOTE: xwing

hi how are you reading people + elaborate on xwing?

I have a really hard time seeing a junko/xwing team

I basically had you as lock town yesterday, I don't see how this could possibly be construed as me "setting you up for lylo" especially when you were probably a perfectly viable lynch for a scum!me to push for yesterday

[Dannflor]

you called my "meta-read" of you based off one game ridiculous, but you're being a hypocrite by bringing up my entrance based off one game as well..different games merit different approaches, so i dunno what you're pushing here..i dont even know what you mean by my entrance being agenda driven, as i was pretty transparent when i said i dont like self-votes, and i said this multiple times..and i've backed it up with my votes..not my proudest/best moment this game, but my intentions were pure..
also, if you read further after that post, slaxx who has played with me found nothing wrong with that post, and your line of questioning caused him to doubt you, actually..

What? At no point have you explained that you scum read me based on differences in play between this game and the other game we played together, at least not clearly. Your initial reasoning for scum reading me (which is just OMGUS in retrospect) is because I "should" be able to read you better. We've played one game together, that basis is faulty.

[Dannflor]

the above is more aligned with how town will think, as opposed to scum who is trying to find clues as to who best to kill..
so draco intentionally NOT telling who to venge aside from bb was correct..as ALL OF US cleared bb, so it should have come between you, me or draco..
stop playing wifom chicken with me please and attack my play/posts..i suggest you use my defense of scum!junko and horrible tunnel on bb as basis..these arguments have a higher chance of making you win..

Your associations stand well enough on their own and have been gone over plenty already. Stop trying to distract me from other aspects of your play that are just as bad

Yes. From a town or scum perspective you never kill BB because he's pretty much never the investigation target (which makes Dr Worm's play so good). However, if the options are between me and Draco, it's obvious that you would kill Draco every single time because of U2's stance on you and my hard defense of you even through the latest day.

[Dannflor]

why are you ignoring the part where you blatantly mis rep draco's read on me?

U2 didn't changeh is read of you until very late in the day

[Dannflor]

oh btw, i dont think im a viable lynch yesterday, you wont be able to get the lynch..
remember, worm and draco got me as town..
pushing me would make your agenda known..

Again, Draco didn't have you as town till later, scum!me would've kept your lynch open going into the day

[Dannflor]

and yea I think I've said all I need to say

I think your play speaks for itself at this point

[Dannflor]

if im scum, it doesnt make sense for me to let bb live (who's been scum reading me since the day before)..

No.

Having an IC in lylo automatically decreases your chances of winning the game. You had to shoot for who would be the most likely investigative target, and that was never gonna be BB

[Dannflor]

gg wp

gotta work on my scum play

Sorry xwing I feel I was pretty manipulative towards you this game I feel bad

enjoyable player list and fun game all

[Dannflor]

and thanks for modding NSG, great flavor

[Dannflor]

Hahaha that's some awesome flavor

WP all
sorry Junko <3 thanks for trying, it was fun having you in for a bit

[Dannflor]

also you all will see my very rapid descent into madness in the mafia PT once I'm left alone

[Dannflor]

it's the nature of the game, dann..you played it pretty well but i think you played *too* well in the sense that the lylo situation was too in your favor, methinks..next time i cant get a strong town read on you, i'll just lynch you nyahaha!!

I feel like my hands were tied, that I

had

to kill Draco there, but fair point. My scum play in general just needs work considering most of the town suspected me at some point.

Woulda liked to roll town this game but it was a fun player list regardless

[Dannflor]

because I sincerely thought Worm would cop one of me or Draco

[Dannflor]

i'm really glad you all liked the flavor! i wasn't really sure where i was going with it when i decided to make flavor or even if it was a good idea (i felt like the day 1 intro flavor was so cheesy), but i think i kind of got into a bit of a groove.

I like how it sort of mirrored in game events in a narrative way but didn't go too overboard

I liked the semi-cheesy aspect of it

[Dannflor]

Also, at risk of xwing suspecting me of pocketing them, their paranoia about me potentially pocketing them is a pretty town instinct imo

I'm just glad I got away with saying this and that it actually worked