Merchant's Daughter [Endgame]

[Dannflor]

Hello, ladies and gentlemen!

Here's hoping this isn't a high school drama redux

[Dannflor]

I don't have a car but I look good in a suit and I'll buy you flowers

[Dannflor]

A little out of my element, I can't adopt my usual strategy of standing by the food and swaying occasionally.

[Dannflor]

Okay, this looks bad but I swear I have no interest in Pink Ball! Unless Pink Ball is going to be the stereotypical "ugly" lady until taking the glasses off. If that's the case, then get your coat, you're getting the bus!

You're a bit of a player, aren't you?

[Dannflor]

Okay, this looks bad but I swear I have no interest in Pink Ball! Unless Pink Ball is going to be the stereotypical "ugly" lady until taking the glasses off. If that's the case, then get your coat, you're getting the bus!

You're a bit of a player, aren't you?

Vedith is starting to remind me of every bad boyfriend I’ve ever had.

But maybe this time you can change him!

[Dannflor]

I need someone loyal, who I can trust and it’s not looking like that’s you bud.

Well I tried!
Can I suggest Dannflor? He really does look good in a suit!

NEXT!

Don’t suggest me! How else am I supposed to keep up my emo loner mystique?

[Dannflor]

To add to what Taly said, pairs should probably be decided near end of the pre-dance so we have the most info when making them. ...or we just pick a date we think is cute.

[Dannflor]

I mean ladies know how many coins they have yea? Can we just pair town read gents with high coin ladies, or am I missing something?

[Dannflor]

The idea of “do no sorting pre-dance” seems all sorts of wrong. If we keep coin mechanics in mind when we make our pairings I think we’re safeish?

[Dannflor]

The risk is pairing Mafia men with high coin ladies, yea? Is the solution not to claim coin totals and keep those in mind when making our town pairings (if we scum read the high coin ladies it could make the pairs messy but it would help eliminate the risk)?

Pedit: I’ll think about it more when I get home at a computer. There’s merit to discussing this, but my gut feeling is we shouldn’t just throw out reads for the first half of the game

[Dannflor]

I think reads can still be pulled out of pre-dance well, it’ll just be a little harder and take more time than a normal game due to all the fluff

[Dannflor]

I have some thoughts about the scenarios proposed but it’ll have to wait for a few hours till I’m home

[Dannflor]

1. Dude offers
2. If Lady likes the dude, Lady asks, "who all scumreads this guy?"
3. If it's less than half the town, she accepts. She only rejects if more than half the town rejects the pairing

I like this quite a bit

No lynching after the first day also gets us down to an odd number of pairs after the NK, yea?

[Dannflor]

So if I'm focusing a lot on setup spec rather than reads right now, it's because *one scenario in setup spec means we don't even talk about reads* which I know sounds really counter-intuitive and maybe dumb.

I'm not following that scum have as much power as you say they do in the first dance, even considering worst possible scenario coin totals. Won't the orchestration of a lynch on a pair that's been universally agreed to be town essentially reveal the entire scum team?

[Dannflor]

Like if town agrees on the town pairs, then it'd be obvious if one of them gets lynched by the scum team

[Dannflor]

So basically I think we just go into this thinking go into Dance 2 with 14 players, an IC, and treat it like a mountainous from there

what ic

Scum must choose to reveal the alignment of a player for Dance 2

[Dannflor]

Basically I am trying to avoid:
Scumreadgent1 and scumreadgent2: "Hey who all is on right now? Also, @mod could we get a vote count"
Mod: "Vote count"
*no other responses*
Scumreadgent 1 and scumread gent 2: *lynches 3 town pairs*

If that's actually how the game can work a no-lynch is definitely the way to go. I also like the idea of being careful with high coin ladies, because even without a town bloc they could still do this.

pedit: wait, can't they only lynch 2 pairs? Because the day ends once the player count reaches 12

[Dannflor]

A) Why are you necessarily assuming all 3 scum would necessarily be on the same wagon?

B) When does scum ever open wolf like this?

I- what? Because in this scenario Krazy is proposing they literally have to open wolf to make sure it works in their favor

[Dannflor]

I'm pretty sure there can be more than one lynch per day

[Dannflor]

I think we can avoid skipping the first dance as long as we’re careful with where our coins go in the pre-dance.

[Dannflor]

I agree that high coin ladies should claim since I did it last game

But I vehemently deny that skipping first dance is a good idea in any stretch

I agree

Dann is a scumread too btw

I disagree

He's done nothing that's town and the way he's dancing around the setup discussion feels too "scum trying to post a lot to hide how little they're saying" for my taste

A lot of people are posting a lot, very few people have said anything of value.

Vedith’s self preservation is town, also

[Dannflor]

Well I disagree my posting is wooden

I think the setup discussion was necessary to have and get out of the way early. I disagree everyone else is advancing discussion, in fact there’s been a lot of redundant posts/discussion along the lines of what you’re criticizing me for. I’ll explain what I mean when I get home

[Dannflor]

1. Dude offers
2. If Lady likes the dude, Lady asks, "who all scumreads this guy?"
3. If it's less than half the town, she accepts. She only rejects if more than half the town rejects the pairing

I like this quite a bit

No lynching after the first day also gets us down to an odd number of pairs after the NK, yea?

Why does odd number matter?

I was thinking of a normal day/night cycle in which an odd number is statistically better. I derped, that doesn’t apply here because the game is nightless

[Dannflor]

Vedith is seeming kinda scummy here.

This is scummy

[Dannflor]

I didn’t find it scummy because you didn’t supply reasoning, Allomancer. That’s a bit of a leap. I’ll explain when I get home because my phone is about to die

[Dannflor]

I’ll explain when I get home

Third time I've seen this, not a fan.

I just get severe FOMO

Vedith is seeming kinda scummy here.

I don't like this because it's a lazy read. I don't like the "seeming kinda" wording to begin with, but aside from that, I think scum reading Vedith is easy but doesn't really make sense if you think about it. I don't think scum shows as much desperation to get a dance as he does. Worst case scenario, scum can buddy and pair up if they have to. Probably not optimal, but their strategy is probably closer to pocketing one person and not really worrying about being the odd man out. The motivation behind that behavior (even joking behavior) comes from town imo

Also, I don't like Allomancer's immediate defensiveness of not justifying his reads and pointing to previous games as "look I'm matching my town meta!" Doesn't seem like a town response

I think Vedith, Gamma, Ankamius, and Alisae are town

Don't like Allomancer, Nancy or Tally tbh

Krazy is mixed but leaning town

[Dannflor]

Nancy, what are your reads at this point?

[Dannflor]

Because you ask a lot of (imo seemingly empty) questions but don't seem to be following through/drawing any conclusions from them.

[Dannflor]

Because he didn’t state a reason for his Vedith scumread?

Why is this such a sticking point? No one ever said not stating reasons was scummy, that's not what this is about

[Dannflor]

Okay, so apparently I’m scum for not automatically being convinced Allo’s scum here, got it.,

No. That's not at all why I scum read you.

[Dannflor]

Why not Taly? He seemed pretty damned townie to me?

ISO is surface level fine, but it's mostly just repeating and restating stuff that has already been said and asking some empty questions.

[Dannflor]

Nancy, what are your reads at this point?

Because you ask a lot of (imo seemingly empty) questions but don't seem to be following through/drawing any conclusions from them.

Could you answer this?

Mostly, I consider asking a lot of questions without there being an actual point to them a scum tell. Also, your weird defense of yourself saying you're only being scum read because you town read Allomancer? I don't think anyone said that and it's a weird conclusion to jump to. It doesn't correlate with people saying you seem off

[Dannflor]

im going back and forth between whats optimal strategy

and it seems to be more of a distraction at this point

Yea, I think letting the game unfold naturally at this point is better. Sorting is gonna happen pre-dance no matter what, as it should. We can figure out how much we care about coins at the end of the pre-dance when we're pairing up and such, but for not more set-up spec isn't really needed

[Dannflor]

I am being townread too easily here and its making me uncomfortable.

Probably means your scum. That's upsetting.

Why would that make him scum?

Another good post for why Nancy is scum.
Missing the obvious context that Vedith is screwing around.

Yea, there are a lot of these kinds of posts in Nancy's ISO. Too eager to question and look town without really thinking through it or purposefully propelling things forward.

[Dannflor]

Allo is stronger scum read than Nancy. Nancy's play could still just be Nancy being Nancy (and I mean that in the best way possible)

[Dannflor]

point to me whats empty

Sure

Spoiler:

Instead, I think in pre-dance, we should all just pair with people we would like to solve the game with in dance 2. We should not necessarily pair with people we are locktown on, but rather on people we would enjoy sorting in a PT and enjoy solving with if we are still alive in dance 2

If anyone strongly disagrees with this I'd like to hear it because otherwise I would like to offer a dance (rl) today

I mean ladies know how many coins they have yea? Can we just pair town read gents with high coin ladies, or am I missing something?

I like both ideas....

Krazy's

method promotes transparency, and

Dannflor's

idea gives less power to Scum+Wealthy Ladies or Gents+Wealthy Scum

But I'd rather not make quick decisions on who I'm dancing with, and I think seeing everyone in the thread first is the most pragmatic and observant method of making a decision.

Here you just kinda restate both of our ideas without adding anything.

oh, overlooked that mod answer

mmm....

Krazy's

strategy sounds good in theory

>

High coin ladies claim to AVOID any scum-gents lying and vote/hammering in First Dance anyway.

>

Getting rid of the "coin mechanic" by going directly to Second Dance without lynch

helps town in multiple ways

:
- Numerically, more town are likely to stay alive
-

Second Dance BEGINS with an IC being made

- to my understanding - so that actually serves to validate people's reads to an extent from Pre-Dance.

>

Getting rid of the "coin mechanic" by going directly to Second Dance without lynch

hurts scum in multiple ways

:
- Scum can't use ANY knowledge of their coins/partner's coins to position a mislynch on someone
- Restricts their options for potential NK, especially if mutually thought townpairs are created

i think a group consenus should be made for pairs, but i dont think forcing someone to pair with another person they scumread is wise

i like this idea a lot, but we need a consenus on everyone committing to this plan or we can't do it

and ANYONE who disagrees with this strategy, should elaborate on their thoughts of it.

Here you're restating things again, this is like the definition of dancing around the setup spec.

I'm pretty sure there can be more than one lynch per day

yeah, cant there be more than one lynch in First Dance?

~

anyway

im going to do math homework and pray to god i make at least a B on my Chem Level 2 test tomorrow...

ill be on later tonight, probably

Posts like this, just echoing questions.

im feeling better about

vedith

at the moemnt

ank

, can you outline your thoughts specifically on

krazy's

plan being an idea that comes from scum?

allo

is my only scumread at the moment, im looking at

nancy

and

dann

for sorting

+1 to

fire/ali/ank

but still thinking here

Here your Vedith town and Allo scum reads come after a couple other state these same reads. It's just sheeping without adding any reasoning, and then you say you're still sorting other people. So nothing really happens in this post.

Because

Allo's

been both flippant and non-concrete in his posts so far.

The unexplained vote tier; with

FakeGod

as a read and

Dann

without really engaging with him at all

The non-committal

Vedith

is scummy thought that was practically a sheeped read since Page 1

I don't get his plan about

"lynching some and then seeing what happens"

for First Dance WITH Lady's claiming coin value... that just sounds like telling scum how to position themselves in the game

ISOing him, it doesn't read as town.

What are your thoughts on

Vedith

and anyone stating that he isn't scum?

I do like this post, however, as it adds reasoning. My only qualm is that it comes after other people basically already stated the same thing.

[Dannflor]

I already answered that.

Uh, where?

If you feel like Nancy is being oblivious and she's posting 95% about reads, it's town Nancy. If she's fluffing more than usual, it's scum Nancy

But I feel like this is closer to fluffing, the oblivious part has me paranoid though

[Dannflor]

dude its literally just the same people posting like the game atm feels extremely uneventful tho idunno what I'm really expecting but right now I'm just bored with it

lowkey town pings me

uneventful is good for scum

[Dannflor]

Ank, was there any benefit that you saw in claiming coin value in your previous game of this?

Is there benefit in not claiming coin value?

[Dannflor]

I'm worried that scum would want to pocket or buddy high-value lady's.

I think that can be avoided by waiting till towards the end of the day (when pairing is happening) to claim coins

[Dannflor]

Nancy, what are your reads right now? Sorry if it's annoying for me to ask but I can't find it in your ISO and seeing some concise direct thoughts from you would help

what are the chances of that happening though? scum can always pair with each other if it seems one of them will be forced out

this is exactly why Vedith is town lol

[Dannflor]

I think I want to lynch Dannflor.

you just have to convince no one to date me ;_;

[Dannflor]

Still eating lunch and finishing up some laundry. I have a few responses to Gamma and Ank's concerns which I can go into later, but one thought did strike me I thought I'd drop out--if we lynch scum in pre-dance (

with the one gent forced out

), then we can play out first dance regularly.

We can’t lynch in pre-dance.

we're forcing a gent out, read the bolded

[Dannflor]

thing about my meta.

I've played a game with you and I've read a game with you in it. You have a very distinctive style

Allomancer, do you still scum read Vedith, and if so would you share reasoning?

[Dannflor]

he is just complaining about not having a partner and advocating for lynches without sharing his reads. he is putting in no effort whatsoever.

I would assume advocating for lynches is sharing scum reads

[Dannflor]

Just freaking tell me already then, please? I’m obviously missing something and no one serms to have the decency to bother sharing it with me.

I don't like this because it's a lazy read. I don't like the "seeming kinda" wording to begin with, but aside from that, I think scum reading Vedith is easy but doesn't really make sense if you think about it. I don't think scum shows as much desperation to get a dance as he does. Worst case scenario, scum can buddy and pair up if they have to. Probably not optimal, but their strategy is probably closer to pocketing one person and not really worrying about being the odd man out. The motivation behind that behavior (even joking behavior) comes from town imo

Also, I don't like Allomancer's immediate defensiveness of not justifying his reads and pointing to previous games as "look I'm matching my town meta!" Doesn't seem like a town response

[Dannflor]

Nancy, you missed the reasoning for why people were scum reading Allo, which made your defense of Allo look bad. It wasn't the defense itself, but how it happened. You're not scum for town reading Allo, and I get you're frustrated but assuming that's why you're being scum read is weird when people stated a few times that wasn't what was going on.

[Dannflor]

I have a lot of reads. \o/
Do you want a rainbow read?

you should share

[Dannflor]

you should share

It won't look good for you though!
Are you sure?

you already said you wanna lynch me dude

pedit: what Allo said

[Dannflor]

dannflor, about your signature: were you scum?

I was, first scum game ever

[Dannflor]

hm is it trolling town or bad scum

[Dannflor]

And why wouldn’t scum be desperate to be paired up? Not saying Vedith is scum but your reasoning makes no sense.

Because scum can just pair up with scum if they need too, town don't have that luxury

[Dannflor]

Allo you're just feeding a troll, if you're town I don't think you're going to get anything useful out of interacting with that slot

Also Krazy just posted two big posts again (about specific players in the game and not mechanics) with 0 reads

Krazy, you can focus on mechanics, but you've obviously been following the game enough to have real thoughts on players. What are they?

[Dannflor]

If we do this let the wealthy ones pick first for wider selection.

I agree that refraining from pairing until we've settled the top 4 wealthiest women/top 4 town guys would probably be preferable

so when are our ladies gonna claim coins?

After reads have been further developed and we're closer to pairing so scum have less of an opportunity to pocket the wealthy ladies.

[Dannflor]

I don’t know if I even want to get picked anymore. I feel like I’m being scumreading without any basis and every single attempt I’ve made to ge clarity on this, seems to get viewed as some kind of scumclaim. I’m seriously contemplating replacing out at this point and they can toture my replacement instead. :

If you can, ignore it. Your energy will be far better spent scum hunting or helping to cement a townblock than trying to defend yourself here.

[Dannflor]

Can people please give this thread a break a little?

+500 posts in about 5 hours is overkill

Yea. There's several people who haven't posted yet and I think we're talking in circles as of right now

[Dannflor]

oof so it begins

good bye Nancy if you're going, but I would ask that you please try to divorce yourself from people scum reading you and play the game regardless if possible though

I'll be back later tonight, wanna give time for people who haven't posted yet and possible replacement to actually catch up and give thoughts

[Dannflor]

One of them was explaining why I don't want to form a read of a player before they have posted lol

Also, I feel like my 'early reads' last time hurt more than helped; while they may have made me townread, I didn't feel like they helped town naturally sort the player list, so I'm trying to be a little bit less pushy on my reads early on this time tbh

The fact that it was all to justify *not* reading a player (even if they hadn't posted yet) bothered me and seemed like wasted effort. I town read your response and your posts since those though

Nancy's frustration with being scum read earlier had me leaning back town too, though replacement is NAI so I'll wait till either one comes through or she makes up her mind on leaving or not to sort that slot

[Dannflor]

The first example I had a different reason from Gamma for town reading you

The second one the posts are 2 minutes apart and the thread was going so fast I didn't even see that

[Dannflor]

Your read on me pretty much sums up why I was antsy on Taly, though I felt better after she started posting her own reasoning for things

pedit:

Then when I was addressing and saying he's scum, he basically says for people to not interact with me because I'm trolling. This was never an issue before until I put focus there.

you were trolling, it took like 25 posts to get a reads list out of you, and Allo was clearly not getting anywhere

I'd love for elaboration on all of your reads I just didn't see you giving it with the way you were behaving

[Dannflor]

Okay, fair fair. Impress me right now!

I can do a clumsy somersault

[Dannflor]

Allo decided to use the wrong attitude with me.

That's fair, and my direction to not interact with your slot was specifically directed at him as I didn't see his approach getting anywhere. + I scum read him and him making a bunch of useless posts pulling teeth with you was starting to feel intentionally useless

[Dannflor]

Yea idk about Allo's insistence that Vedith is the slot we should leave behind when Dr Worm exists

[Dannflor]

Wait fuck I wanted to ask Krazy to dance eventually but he's also a gent

can we be gay lovers

[Dannflor]

I like Taly a lot more now. I don't really scum read any of the ladies. Brie is the closest but she hasn't posted enough.

[Dannflor]

Okay, so Taly is really really town from the last few pages if somebody still hasn't caught that yet.

Regardless of your thoughts on Nancy, he's been purposefully trying to quell the rabid circular fighting surrounding Nancy without stemming any actual discussion. Continuing to basically flame each other while Nancy has (theoretically?) placed out is just going to go in circles and not accomplish anything. It's similar to how the Allo/Vedith interaction was going earlier. Firebringer/Nancy engaging is never going to produce anything useful, and continual focus on this one point is just going to grind things to a halt if Nancy is indeed replacing out. His concern with the direction of the game too is a very town way of looking at the game.

I'm comfortable slotting this into confident town reads now tbh

{Vedith, Alisae, Krazy} null-town
{Firebringer, Allo, Dann, Dr.W, Gamma, Taly, Anka, RC} null
{PB} null-scum
{ND39} lean-scum

What is the point of entering with a reads list that's basically all null.

Taly coming in hot.

pedit noo why are we fighting

rlly bad. No town motivation for standing on the sidelines and essentially egging on a fight.

We're taking the heat off of Nancy because why?

Well, she's replacing out of the game if you hadn't noticed. The pages surrounding that drama were very unhelpful for town, as Taly already noted. Pressuring the Nancy slot can still happen, but we also shouldn't keep talking about it for 10 pages.

[Dannflor]

Taly broke a sacred rule of mine although the rule is more to do with my feelings about it than Taly, and I can no longer give a reliable read on Taly without getting a bit of space from him

What is it? Kinda feels like a cheap way to avoid reading him

[Dannflor]

Wait did Vedith ever offer

there goes the whole waiting to make strategic pairs with high coin ladies

[Dannflor]

Ankamius null

This sticks out to me. Why is this null? Are you having a hard time making up your mind or have her posts just not made an impression on you?

[Dannflor]

Oh is that what you meant by "Dunn" earlier

[Dannflor]

Hard time making up my mind. We have too different reads and I'm trying to sort if there's some kind of agenda being pushed by her or if they're legitimate reads. To be more specific: Firebringer's push on Nancy was hardcore, so it gives the opportunity to anyone to jump in there and push. Since I thing Fire ir wrong and that Nancy is obvtown here, Ank is the one who falls in that category.

That makes sense. It pinged me because Ank has posted a fair bit and taken strong stances + you supplied reads on pretty much anyone who has posted anything of substance

but I like the reasoning behind it being a mixed read

[Dannflor]

I thought you were scumleaning me. Who should I be paired then?

I'd ask you but I'm afraid of rejection

Wait what? We gave vedith the eight coins? How dumb are yall?

He town tho

Maybe Firebringer can change his bad boy ways

@Pvt, I know your read on me has changed, have any of your other null reads solidified since then? It don't like how the only thing of substance in your ISO is giving out null reads to the majority of the game

[Dannflor]

Jeez, if you're gonna shade atleast pretend you're trying to hide it. Don't be asking of others before you've accomplished them yourself.

I didn't think I was hiding it

I very clearly am not impressed with your ISO

[Dannflor]

You're my biggest scum read, and #927 solidifys that further.

Your scum read on me literally only came right after I started questioning you. Why do you think I'm scum? because from my perspective it looks like omgus

[Dannflor]

And since you asked so nicely

Town [Taly, Gamma, Vedith, Krazy, Ankamius]
Lean Town [Pink Ball, Alisae, Firebringer, RC]
Mixed [Nancy]
Null [TheBrie, Doubting Thomas, Dr Worm, Moment]
Leaning Scum [PvT]
Scum [Allomancer]

pedit:

I can't tell if this is srs or troll

why would it be a troll? I pointed at things I didn't like from you and then you started scum reading me. You haven't supplied alternative reasons either

[Dannflor]

I think it would be helpful for both of us if I knew why you thought I was scum and we could engage about it in real time for a little bit

[Dannflor]

I'm not understanding what you're getting at, what am I missing

[Dannflor]

I don't think your scum read on me is inherently scummy, I just don't know the reasons behind it and from the timeline and my perspective it *looks like* OMGUS. I'm just trying to get some explanations

My scum read on you comes largely from your entrance to the game and the fact that you posted one thing of substance that basically only had one read that wasn't null.

[Dannflor]

I'll take a break, haven't had the best of times today.

sorry to hear that, feel better

Know I'm not trying attacking you or trying to straw man you here, hope it didn't come off that way

[Dannflor]

TIL Dann has a scummier evil twin

It's true, he's a jackass

I moved Dann into null after I made my list.

To clarify, am I a mixed read? I remember you had me as town earlier but now you're moving me from scum to null

He could be scum but I liked his willingness to re-evaluate my slot where as Allo did the exact opposite, which read uberscummy to me.

pedit: ok, I see that. did I go from town to scum for you around when I started scum reading you initially?

[Dannflor]

Vedith is paired with fire lol

That's why I don't care anymore

I'm banking on him being town and... not actually trolling? ... hopefully?

[Dannflor]

Nancy, I can't answer that question, unfortunately.

I have read a couple old games with you in it, but I'm not about to use meta to case you. My scum read was based more off your early game play. However, your AtE and general later behavior I think comes from more of a town place

I don't think scum reacts like that, town can especially if they think they should be obv town

[Dannflor]

Btw @Dannflor I already think you're my perfect match but with the condition of letting me call you DanceFloor for the rest of the game

That's just an added perk! It's certainly much better than the Damnfloor i got earlier

>I like Dann more but I want to know why he town reads me got explaining reads. What's worthy about my explanations?

I initially didn't like your posting because it felt like parroting/restating of things that had already said, you started adding your own reasoning to things which relieved that concern somewhat. Your defense of Nancy and handling of that whole situation is what really made me town read you. I don't think scum ever defends Nancy there. At least, I don't think scum ever handles that situation specifically like you and somewhat Pink Ball where it's an attempt to diffuse the situation rather than add to the conflict.

If I was forced to share a PT with you:

Does anyone want to willingly share a PT with Dr Worm

like actually

- Scumread on Krazy
180 - Scumread on Dann
274 - Townread on Fire
295 - Townlean? on Gamma
330 - Townread on Taly/Ali
330 - Scumlean? on RC

As far as I can tell from your previous reads list, you share the same reads as Ank on Ali, Gamma, myself, and Krazy. Do think her reads or reasoning for them are bad? Or are you mostly scum reading based off the Nancy thing?

[Dannflor]

dr worm is def scum here

How did you get anything concrete out of his iso
His alignment is annoying

[Dannflor]

hey vedith, I am going to leave ur ass at the start of tomorrow if u don't get ur act together.

pls do. vedith and worm are both either scum or policy lynches that really need to happen for us to have any hope of understanding what's going on

See this is lazy. If you want to push for policy lynches fine but you can’t honestly tell me you’re getting anything alignment indicative out of worm’s posting

Then again, I can’t put myself through continuing to read his posts either

[Dannflor]

hey vedith, I am going to leave ur ass at the start of tomorrow if u don't get ur act together.

pls do. vedith and worm are both either scum or policy lynches that really need to happen for us to have any hope of understanding what's going on

See this is lazy. If you want to push for policy lynches fine but you can’t honestly tell me you’re getting anything alignment indicative out of worm’s posting

Then again, I can’t put myself through continuing to read his posts either

To add to this, I will readily leave Dr Worm behind in the pre-dance because I don’t think his slot will ever be sortable or helpful even if he’s town. However, scum reading him just so you can add him to your lists of scum reads pings me, particularly when I already think you have lazy reads (see Vedith)

[Dannflor]

As for my read on worm: the weird posting style is antitown but not scum. However, we have repeatedly told him this and he refuses to change it, just stating "I'm trying to get better" without changing anything. It's gotten to the point where it feels contrived rather than stylistic. What does town have to gain from that? Okay, maybe I'm wrong, maybe he is just a troll, but then he just deserves to be taught the lesson that actions have consequences, and a lynch is the best way to do that.

Aside from worm and Vedith, who do you scum read? Nancy?

Only blind ladies, should accept an offer from Worm.

Maybe aside from blind and deaf ladies

[Dannflor]

We don’t have to LISTEN to his posts.

His posts are so loud, I can literally hear them.

If Taly is going with Krazy, I'll probably ask Pink Ball in a couple days or so

I'm also feeling better about Nancy and feel like she'll also be a lot easier to sort and sort with in a PT

My lowest lady read is TheBrie at a solid null, but those are the two I could probably be most productive/gel with. Maybe Gamma, but I don't know that she'd consider me.

I think a Krazy/Taly pair is pretty obv town pair imo. There was a lot of set up spec but that play + all the play outside of that has been geared towards solving the game in a genuine way. I don't think scum puts that much thought into things, either because they don't want to be seen as trying too hard and because that sort of analysis is inherently helpful to town.

[Dannflor]

Aside from worm and Vedith, who do you scum read? Nancy?

@Allomancer

[Dannflor]

also like I said. do i get no credit here?

why are you concerned with getting credit

[Dannflor]

Firebringer v Nancy reads Town v Town with clashing personalities. Your problems are communication issues, I don't see either side maliciously misrepresenting anything

[Dannflor]

i am liking allomancer's tone

See I feel like his recent posts have been more trying to call out other people's posting habits and looking helpful instead of actually scum hunting

[Dannflor]

I don't think defending Nancy is necessarily alignment indicative. Scum might do that too if they think she'll be a mislynch later.

I townread Pink Ball and Taly for it because the way they went about it was very much about diffusing the situation, RC's approach didn't really do that as much so meh I don't really think he's scum but I don't think that's a great argument for town RC imo

[Dannflor]

Well I haven’t played with scum!RC but him not wanting to rush the pairings also seems pro-town. doesn’t it?

But I dunno. I suppose I should wait for more content from him but nothing I’ve read from him so far has pinged me either. I’m definitely not townlocking him for this. If he does something I consider scummy, of course I’ll revisit my reads.

Yea, no I actually agree with you and have RC as leaning town, though he hasn't posted enough for me to be super confident

I'm just pointing out why him defending you doesn't ping me as hard as town as other players.

In regards to not wanting to rush the pairings... yes it's pro-town, but it's also an easy thing to say and be like "omg Vedith why did u pair up so quick and make things harder for town btw I'm totally TOWN" (I'm not saying RC did that but I definitely am suspicious of Allomancer for that exact sort of posting)

[Dannflor]

What!?!?

[Dannflor]

also feel like I'm taking crazy pills when ppl like Brie saying Allo's recent posting is better because I feel like it's getting worse

maybe I'm conf biasing

[Dannflor]

#1272 is bad and fencesitty but I'm giving benefit of the doubt because this is a hard game to get into and I know Brie is a self-admittedly waffley player in general, so we'll see

[Dannflor]

allomancer, moment (because I am lazy), and TheBrie.

Thoughts on PvT?

[Dannflor]

You're a hoot

You're pretty

[Dannflor]

I'm closer to townreading him now than anytime yesterday if it helps

I mean I think your reads are kinda wack but I do think you're town so it's helpful to know

I like protoss myself quite a bit but Terran is a much more versatile race to play that I can do way more in terms of playstyles where as with protoss you can only do like 2 different kind of builds.

Plus dropping marines in bases is just the best.

srry nver played starwars

[Dannflor]

Let me try again, what's your read on PvtUrist, FB?

[Dannflor]

wow this is some dedicated defense of a town read on another player isn't it

it's hot

[Dannflor]

Actually though, #1308 town pings me just because it's so specific and that approach to solving/getting other people to review it is towny

I don't know if it's enough for me to change my read on Pvt himself I'll have to look at the game in question and think about it

[Dannflor]

why is dannflor keep talking to himself

lmfao

i get lonely sometimes

[Dannflor]

this game is like actual terrible high school dances where there are always more girls than guys and the girls are all knockouts and amazing while there were only ever like 2 guys who aren't just sentient bread

[Dannflor]

I'll take a bit of time to post my Dann reads, it's similiar to what happened in Mirco 848 against TW, I'll be needing to putting my thoughts into words,
which is something I'm less than adapt at.

Take your time. I'm waffleing on your alignment right now but hearing you vocalize some reasoning for things will definitely help me sort you

[Dannflor]

Aren't you at all worried about the fact that I seem to be almost universally scumread?

I town read you

[Dannflor]

I wouldn’t mind Dann but he hasn’t shown any interest in me, so far. Well, if we pair up, the chances of us being NK’d are a lot less, so maybe you should consider that?

I did say I felt like you were someone I could sort better and sort better with in a PT!

I wouldn't mind pairing with you at all if everyone thinks it's best but I also kinda

like like

Pink Ball

You + Dann would be interesting, mostly because I think Dann has some natural talent at scum play and I would like to see your read based on his PT play. I also don't think Dann is widely townread so that seems like a decent pairing to me.

This is kinda weird because I have one completed scum game ever and it was in like 2012

[Dannflor]

DanceFloor, this is a warning: you flirt with my bffe one more time, and you won't get any of this. Chicks before dicks.

I like her as a friend, my heart is with you <3

[Dannflor]

Yea Ank doesn't want me

out of curiosity, what do you mean by old school?

Who do you think is a good pair for Nancy?

Pvturist or DoubtingThomas probably

Dr Worm/Allomancer are a hard no would never work and who knows about Moment

Grrrrrr

It's okay I'm loyal boy

[Dannflor]

He fits the bill of probably won't be widely town read (at least I don't really town read him) but has a chance of maybe getting a long with Nancy

Pvt is probably preferred here though. I think the pairs should probably prioritize how well they'll work together so that's up to Nancy probably to decide

playstyle that was more common back in 2012 when you joined

best way I can describe it is that old school is more each post is a high school essay while most posts nowadays are twitter posts

lmao yea ok I get what you mean

I played a bit back then and then only came back recently, so I haven't quite adjusted, and probably won't ever fully because I like being more transparent in my thought processes than the twitter post style allows

[Dannflor]

What's really annoying is I can't even talk about how annoyed I am about not being able to talk about the game I want to talk about with Dann because talking about how annoyed that makes me would out the game in question.

I am really curious about this and look forward to when you're able to talk about it

For now though, this sort of in depth thought process (and I see echoes of it in your other posts) is pretty town. It's too elaborate to fake, and I don't know that scum has a reason or need to fabricate so much

@People who scum read Ankamius

Does scum ever go for the gambit of persistently insisting that they don't really wanna partner up at all for the pre-dance? Apathy isn't necessarily alignment indicative but idk why scum would be that vocal about potentially just offing themselves for the greater good or whatever

[Dannflor]

Does scum ever go for the gambit of persistently insisting that they don't really wanna partner up at all for the pre-dance? Apathy isn't necessarily alignment indicative but idk why scum would be that vocal about potentially just offing themselves for the greater good or whatever

Keep saying it means fuck all without actions.
It's 100% AtE so it alone is NAI.
Personally I'm bored of reading it and each time I see Ank post it I read through Dr Worms ISO to get some actual content.

I don't think so. Sure, I could see mafia mentioning this plan once or twice to gain some town cred. But here she's made it the focal point of her posts for the last like 30 pages. If she ends up going through to the dance, she'll probably face pressure in general and for what changed her mind. That's not a risk mafia generally wants to take.

Good enough for me. I've not played with town!Dann before, so I've not got a good reference, but

he's a player I like so I want him as town.

This is the issue I'm feeling. I don't have strong indications of scum!Dann (atleast, not things that I can place into words reliably) but I'm feeling that more than 1 player here is viewing the handsome rogue through rose tinted glasses.

Dann's been pretty charasmatic, and I do like his personality. As redundent as this might be, likability=/=allignment, and at the very least I'd prefer if people didn't conf-town Dann and completely place him out of the equation yet.

I'm blushing

I'm perfectly fine with this read and like the approach.

I tend to get widely town read very early on in the majority of my games and I've started to become rather paranoid about people who do that too easily or default to that when they first see me in a game. Just because it feels like an easy choice, which might have been one of the things that pinged me about Allo when he first came in. Vedith was his top scum read, which I thought was lazy, and I was his top town read. Maybe that's too much paranoia than something to actually care about though.

Hm, I'm having the opposite problem of some people where I'm struggling to get confident scum reads

[Dannflor]

It's NAI. Either align can do it. As town or Scum they can be legit angry or faking the emotion.

I agree with you at a basic level. I just think the extent of this makes it more likely town than not.

[Dannflor]

at the very least I'd prefer if people didn't conf-town Dann and completely place him out of the equation yet.

Actually, backtracking because this stuck out in my mind, this is kinda a weird thing to say. I don't think anyone's conf-towned me and in general people who town read me have been somewhat suspicious or at least hesitant at first to do so

There's also a few people who scum read me (Ank and Vedith and yourself? that I know of) Why did you feel the need to say this when as far as I'm aware people are generally holding me in slight suspicion? (even if they town read me)

What is the source of all these brie scumreads?

I'm not seeing what's so weird about all her posting and the way people are passively bringing it up occasionally over and over again is making me think that she's being pushed as a future mislynch.

I think it has to do with her generally waffley and fencesitty posts, which there are a lot of. I don't think it's really alignment indicative for her though so I am a little worried about her being an easy scum read

[Dannflor]

Here's my ISO from a skim;

-Fluff intro
-Redundent readlist
-More fluff
-Accusation vs Dann that's yet to be backed
-More fluff
-More fluff

so, I'll be needing to play better

Soooooo yes, thank you for supporting my point

I... guess?

Urist looking worse by this. :/

Where exactly is that? I'm fully aware I haven't been playing well at all, but where's the scumread from this?

The problem is that when called out on your ISO you lampshade your play instead of like, actually contributing on all the content that's been spawned in the last few pages. It looks like a grab for slight town cred imo

[Dannflor]

well me, pvt, and dt are all town so there's that

yo maybe this is the scum team

[Dannflor]

So do you believe only one of me and Pink is scum?

[Dannflor]

Dann's posts continues to ping scum to me.

I wish you could put your reasoning into words so I could engage with you on this

[Dannflor]

I'm coming around to Dr Worm town btw

I think the only thing you could potentially scum read him for is (maybe?) trying to antagonize Nancy, but I think he's moved on from purposefully doing that. I agree with Krazy that his line of thinking regarding the IC and making it to the 2nd dance is towny. Additionally, the scum reads against him feel automatic and lazy which makes me think he's mislynch material

[Dannflor]

If she ends up going through to the dance, she'll probably face pressure in general and for what changed her mind. That's not a risk mafia generally wants to take.

I think this is the only thing Dann said so far that particularly pinged me, and there I was more thinking it was possibly just shoddy reasoning.

I know this isn't directed at me, but why do you think it's shoddy? It's not a super strong point for town!Ank but I think it makes it more likely than not

Dann as explained

You haven't

[Dannflor]

well me, pvt, and dt are all town so there's that

yo maybe this is the scum team

That isn’t possible. They can’t all be all gents or all ladies. I’m assuming that since we have 9 gents to 8 ladies, probably 2 gents and 1 lady?

That makes most sense. I have (and I think most people do) more gents lower than most of the ladies

[Dannflor]

I've actually had a completely opposite experience re: self-voting, so maybe that's why I'm viewing this the way I am

[Dannflor]

Hi sexy

p sure they should rename that ariana grande song God is a pink ball

[Dannflor]

I'm trying to figure out if Pvt's hard tunnel on me and the fact that it's done so poorly is more town or scum

[Dannflor]

4-Because they legitimately believe their flip will help town

If I'm able to see this and believe it's genuine, I'll town read it. I've read Ank as pretty genuine and I don't think she believes she'll be of use in the next dances

[Dannflor]

I don't think she believes she'll be of use in the next dances

or rather she believes that it'll be more helpful for the gamestate if she's gone in the pre-dance if I understand correctly

[Dannflor]

Read some posts from newbie 1905 between pvt and foodcoats and you'll get your answer

I checked it out and I see a lot more effort gone into casing there as opposed to here

but, as PvT just said, I'm not quite seeing scum motivation for the tunnel

[Dannflor]

scum!Urist vs town!Dann; Urist attacking an universally read town and is making a dumb move.

scum!Urist vs scum!Dann; Urist attacking an universal town read and is making a dumb move.

Slept on it, and I think I figured out what was bothering me about this.

Scum can attack people who probably won't get lynched precisely because people can write it off as a dumb town tunnel. It gives you a template of how to play the game without actually having to risk suspicious pushes. Maybe that's too WIFOM. What really bothers me is the fact you tried to lampshade your play twice in a row without attempting to improve it.

I’m concerned about Brie being possible mislynchbait though. So many people were so quick to jump on her, so fast, it concerned me.

I don't really think theBrie is scum either.

Like other people have mentioned, my readslist are correlating somewhat with postcount. I'm pretty confident in some of my town reads though, so I'd say it's possible this is just a more town controlled game.

[Dannflor]

it’s not going to make that much of a difference to scum but if people are making questionable reads for not really great reasons, that I think, is still the best way to sort people, Do you disagree with that?

Honestly this is where my scum reads on Pvt and Allo come from. They both feel similar to "having reads just for the sake of having reads"

Nancy, what are Pink Ball's favorite flowers?

[Dannflor]

I don't think that's actually a scum trait. Town feel the pressure to generate reads as much as scum do.

I think town are more willing to admit their reads are bad/lazy or that they just don't have strong reads on anyone.

To be fair, Pvt has been more open on this than Allo, but that's why he's higher for me

[Dannflor]

Leaving is probably only for extreme circumstances. Over relying on it probably means we have less associative tells to work with

[Dannflor]

Dann hasn’t shown any real interest in asking me though.

I think PB would murder me in my sleep

[Dannflor]

queue Allo popping in with "but guys we gotta wait to pair up"

The Ankamius/RC 1v1 just gives me town feelings for both of them

[Dannflor]

I feel good about both Nancy and PB in a PT, but I think Nancy and I would be higher candidates for a NK. Which I thought you were trying to avoid, Krazy?

[Dannflor]

Just wanted to state that if ANYONE is planning to ask me out with flowers, a beautiful arrangement of purple Alstromerias, some white Easter Lillies and a pair of yellow Bird of Paradise will do!

takes notes

[Dannflor]

PB is a lady, Dann

I'm very aware. I meant with me

[Dannflor]

I think Nancy and Krazy would be good together.

This isn't a bad idea

[Dannflor]

I'm going to be flipped super soon so we can treat me like an IC this game

I'd like to have veto over certain pairings: I'll use it sparingly but I want to end up with a few pairings I'm happy with

How do you feel about me and PB?

[Dannflor]

I'm not sure about PB

I town read him, and I'm not sure I should be going with a widely town read slot anyways

[Dannflor]

Who does Taly go with then?

[Dannflor]

Gamma claimed 6 coins too so that's vaguely important

[Dannflor]

Honestly, I think Dr Worm is town. It just depends on who is willing to be in a PT with him

[Dannflor]

Which posts, Vedith?

[Dannflor]

Dann seems set on PB, so it’s currently not looking great for rn.

I think you and I would make a good pairing sorting wise and I'm not dead set if the rest of the game thinks it's best me and PB go elsewhere. Kinda waiting for RC to get a read on PB

[Dannflor]

It might have to be me/Nancy and PB/Dr Worm

and PB and I will just be estranged lovers

[Dannflor]

Ask me? I’m kind of pissed at Krazy rn for his double standards.

dw you'll get a good date, I'm holding off on asking anyone for at least a little longer

Our two current pairings aren't great, we should make sure our remaining ones are as good as we can make them

And that pairing is stupid enough to be town/town.

very agree

[Dannflor]

The game is not lost. Ank/RC can hopefully figure out the other is town, and we still have several pairings left to make that can be good

[Dannflor]

I’m upset because I think they’re going to take each other out in 1st Dance, where as had they partnered with others, they’d have to convince others, so that would have been a lot less likely to happen, so I think we’re losing likely two top towns, right off the bat, so I don’t understand why people are telling me not to feel pessimistic about that.

I think this whole fiasco has eased their paranoia, which makes it less likely for a yolo bombing to occur. If they're able to work together in the PT, the pairing could turn really good

Does anyone object to me asking Nancy to the dance? soon™

[Dannflor]

Dann is a volatile read because I want one-on-one speak with him a bit more so I can sort and understand his viewpoint further.

Hi! I'll engage with you

I'm trying not to do full reads lists anymore because I'm not so sure outlining those helps town more than it hurts now that we're nearing the end of the pre-dance, however, I'll answer specific questions about anyone or anything if you have them.

Okay, so Taly is really really town from the last few pages if somebody still hasn't caught that yet.

Regardless of your thoughts on Nancy, he's been purposefully trying to quell the rabid circular fighting surrounding Nancy without stemming any actual discussion. Continuing to basically flame each other while Nancy has (theoretically?) placed out is just going to go in circles and not accomplish anything. It's similar to how the Allo/Vedith interaction was going earlier. Firebringer/Nancy engaging is never going to produce anything useful, and continual focus on this one point is just going to grind things to a halt if Nancy is indeed replacing out. His concern with the direction of the game too is a very town way of looking at the game.

I'm comfortable slotting this into confident town reads now tbh

This is the original reason I started town reading you btw. More recently, I like the way you've approached giving out reads and how careful you're being. I don't think it's motivated by scum!"I gotta be careful with how I word and place my reads here," but more town!"I want to be helpful and analyze the game but I don't want to give scum too much information."

Also, your paranoia about getting town-read town-pings me too. If you're scum, I don't think you make as big of a deal about it because it makes it easy for you to coast through the game and then just defend yourself using the WIFOM argument later.

[Dannflor]

Tbf to Taly, I completely understand where his paranoia is coming from, so I don’t scumread him for it. I unfortunately cannot explain my reasoning for it though.

I town read him for his paranoia anyways

[Dannflor]

That said, he's still probably not the worst option to leave out of the dance and definitely is not somebody I want you paired with.

I don't think he's anywhere near a

good

option to leave out of the dance when he's a gent town read and those aren't in the highest supply

[Dannflor]

well I was kinda hoping RC would help figure out pairings because there's a lot of conflicts going on with that rnow,

Vedith - Firebringer
RadiantCowbells - Ankamius

==========

Dannflor - Nancy Drew
Krazy - Taly
Dr Worm - Pink Ball

Dannflor - Pink Ball
Krazy - Nancy Drew
? - Taly

Dannflor - Taly
Krazy - Nancy Drew
Pink Ball - Dr Worm

These are the main options that have been brought up so far, but afaik, Krazy is against being paired with Nancy. @Krazy, Taly is your ideal match, yea? Do you have other potential matches or are you dead set?

People not mentioned: Allomancer, Moment, PvtUrist, DoubtingThomas, Something_Smart, TheBrie, and Gamma.

A match for Gamma is vaguely important as she's claimed 6 coins. @Gamma, do you have an opinions on who you'd like to go with? It's kind of important it's someone you feel good about.

I think starting to figure out which gent we're leaving behind would help us hammer down pairings. I'd advocate for Allo personally. I do not think Dr Worm should be left behind at this point. PvT I've had enough conflicting thoughts about that I could just be wrong, I just dislike how he's just straight up avoided engaging with me. I'm not very hot on DT either, but I don't have a strong opinion on him yet either way.

[Dannflor]

Also I still believe DanceFloor should ask me no matter what

@Pink Ball, I will fight you, sorry.

no fighting plz i dont wanna be responsible for breaking up besties

[Dannflor]

I really really feel Ankamius and RC are likely both town who just aren't getting through to each other/communicating properly

I'm hoping they somehow manage to turn around and even turn into an obv town pair

[Dannflor]

I wish he wouldn't

[Dannflor]

Allo, if you were to pair with someone who would you want to pair with?

[Dannflor]

Did anyone ever get back to me on their urist townread? I don't remember if anyone did or not but I somewhat skimmed the 9 pages while I was asleep so it's possible I missed it

PB's case was meta based, but I'm not convinced by it.

[Dannflor]

Nancy, why do you scum read Moment?

[Dannflor]

Let's not just leave it at that. Explain.

I laugh at this because I've literally been asking you to do this all game for me

Also, I've already explained

Read some posts from newbie 1905 between pvt and foodcoats and you'll get your answer

I checked it out and I see a lot more effort gone into casing there as opposed to here

[Dannflor]

I'm going to cry

[Dannflor]

i had to repress my feelings for the greater good of the town

i respect your decision, it's probably easier if you're mad at me

maybe one day..

[Dannflor]

By the way if Nancy tells me that you did something wrong to her you'll wake up with a horse's head in your bed

I would expect nothing less, of course

[Dannflor]

take care of pink, dr worm

[Dannflor]

I'll ask Nancy tomorrow, probably

Don't really feel like waiting any longer

That leaves Taly/Krazy probably unless there are any sudden changes of heart

[Dannflor]

DANNFORL I will take CARE of PINKBELLS I PROMISE to e a REAL GENTELMANS!!

thanks, I trust you

Taly, still up for engaging with you one on one once you get the time

would also love to talk to Pvt about his read on me but I don't see that happening this game

goodnight all

[Dannflor]

I've had my heart broken once already because I waited too long. Time to stop being a coward.

Nancy, will you go to the dance with me?

Spoiler: Flowers!

[Dannflor]

Ank, can you elaborate on the Krazy scum-read, or are you waiting to engage with Krazy himself on it?

[Dannflor]

I'm curious why early game setup spec enabled that vs. scum just... doing that

Wasn't his initial idea to randomize pairings?

[Dannflor]

I don't see a scenario where scum would *want* a scum/scum pairing unless they were forced into it.

[Dannflor]

Meh. I thought I had good feelings about him but I reread his ISO and it's pretty icky. He does the same thing as PvT where he just lampshades the fact that his slot is scummy but doesn't actually do anything to fix that or be productive.

His only contributions reads-wise aren't even true reads and just throwing vague suspicion on Taly and Krazy, namely. It's not a good look.

@S_S, you've been in the game a fair bit now that I think you should have been able to form some reads based on what you've seen so far. You don't have to be explicitly detailed or super confident, I just want to hear your thoughts on the players who've made the most impression on you. Your ISO is a lot of fluff, useless questioning, and a little bit of setup spec. I need to see something more concrete.

[Dannflor]

I have nothing to say to her. Only you, Ank, and fb are townreads.

Brie, PB, and GE are null-reads;

i wasn't really sure about the order.

Okay looks like people are pairing. I better hurry up. I know Taly won't pair with me, so

I'm going with my second highest townread unpaired lady

.

TheBrie, dance with me?

Brie, you can do better. This is desperate.

[Dannflor]

It is desperate. It also reads as fairly genuine. I'm not sure if he'd act that brazenly and obviously desperate as scum

Ahhhh. People keep saying Allo's tone is so genuine, but I read his tone as explicitly not genuine. It feels like it's trying too hard.

I need to meta him probably

[Dannflor]

I accept!

What a lovely bouquet.

omg yay!

uh I mean *stoic nod*

Let's do this

[Dannflor]

Trying too hard to do what?

To capture that genuine tone. The random pop ins with "x is town" or "y is scummy" are brazen yes, but I'm not convinced it can't just be scum trying to capture that easy-going/genuine tone.

Maybe the playstyle difference is impacting my read. Like I said I'll meta him when I get time later, see if it helps me at all.

[Dannflor]

Townreads are, in playerlist order, RC, Allo, Worm, Vedith, Ank, Taly.

Also, I thought you were scum reading Taly. But maybe I misunderstood something.

[Dannflor]

I think that post only comes from Allo if he actually is desperate, which he could still be as scum-- but I also think he'd be more likely to hide it.

Especially if, as you're saying, he might be putting on an act, it'd be weoyto abruptly drop the act and show his genuine fear.

This makes sense. I guess I just find the progression from frustration that people are yolo-pairing and repeated assertions that people should wait as long as possible to pair, to suddenly asking a null read to dance without really interacting with her or doing anything else to be very jarring.

You're right though, it could be town desperation too, and that's how I read Vedith's early game play as well. I guess the difference is Vedith was honest with his desperation from the start.

[Dannflor]

@Allo,

which gent would you choose to leave behind?

[Dannflor]

I expect the scumteam to have me as null in this game, specially after pairing with dr worm who, despite being townread now, it's easy to "change their mind" about him and mislynch us. Guess what fuckos: not gonna happen

Yea I'm going to be defending this pair. Extremely wary of people's scum reads on Dr Worm and the quality of those reads

[Dannflor]

Here's my question to you Nancy: what is scum doing to ensure they can get to endgame?

Yea this is what I'm really worried about concerning the current state of teh game. The bottom people just aren't... doing enough. Which as town they should be trying to prove their towniness but also as scum they should be trying even harder to prove their towniness. So it makes me uneasy that there's a lot of players just going with the flow.

you gave dr worm 5 coins? oh fuck no oh god

Can you answer my question about what gent you'd leave behind, Allo?

Also, what is the basis of your Dr Worm scum read? Is it just his posting style?

[Dannflor]

So Nancy, one thing I want from you is evaluating as the game goes on whether Dann is "too right about everything"

I feel like I just like his reads too much and it makes me nervous

I'll take this as a compliment

For real though, the longer this pre-dance goes on the more paranoid I'm getting about my reads because of my aforementioned problems with the game state. If I am "too right about everything," scum is likely in a very bad spot, and they don't seem to be doing anything about it.

[Dannflor]

@Allo,

at what point did I move from your top town read to a scum read? And why?

[Dannflor]

You know that sig quote does not make me feel better about you lol

oops

[Dannflor]

you're not a scumread, you're a nullread. All my scumreads are paired though.

Okay... When did I move from top town read to null read?

[Dannflor]

{Dannflor}
{Nancy Drew, Taly}
{Krazy}
{Vedith}
{FakeGod}

No one else has posted enough to be read.

Dann is a scumread too btw

I disagree

The unexplained vote tier; with FakeGod as a read and Dann without really engaging with him at all

ohh I forgot this too.

allo I don't think would put fake god in a readset as town. That is like bizzaro world here if he is town and is doing that.

ok
1) it was a joke
2) it was also purposeful. I had no strong scumreads. If I had stuck with 4 rows it would've looked like Dann was strong scum and Krazy was null-scum. That wasn't the case, so I added a bottom row to show that i had not strong scumreads. Then I put fakegod in it for a joke

because he was only town with regards to being townier than the others. It was actually null, but placed in perspective, I made him town to distinguish.

this is

not

adding up

[Dannflor]

If Allo is scum here this interaction looks hella bad for Dannflor.

what

[Dannflor]

taht was a mistake. 159 I meant to say Vedith instead of Dann. If you look, it makes no sense for me to say "Dann was strong scum". What happened was since i've never played with either of them, I forgot the names and put Dann instead because you said Dann in the post I responded to

You mean you mean to say "Vedith was strong scum" in

397

That still doesn't explain how or why I moved from a town read (above your null line) that you apparently felt strongly enough to disagree with Ankamius on, to "null"

[Dannflor]

Add a question mark to that first sentence^

[Dannflor]

I like Moment more than any of the other unpaired gentleman, so I'd support Gamma/Moment

Probably comes down to who she prefers though

[Dannflor]

Ooh Moment/theBrie I'd feel better about as a town pairing though

[Dannflor]

I'm not sold Allo didn't just drop his town read of me because I started hard pushing him.

Feel like I should have pushed Pvt on Dannscum earlier since I think a bit more pressure there would have helped. I really kinda started to dislike how there was so much more emphasis on "why won't Krazy offer Nancy" rather than "why isn't Dann town enough for Nancy"

I've been trying to engage with PvT about his read on me literally all game and he's been straight up ignoring me. It's one of the main reasons I just can't feel good about him.

But I don't know if Allo is the best choice to be left behind.

Also I have this nasty feeling that I'm going to be the last lady unpaired and I'm going to have to choose who dies.

Who would you choose to be left behind, if you had to choose?

[Dannflor]

I support PinkBall's suggestions for pairings. It'll be interesting what input the people actually involved provide however particularly because I think there's likely some scum in there.

[Dannflor]

I'm not very hot on DT either, but I don't have a strong opinion on him yet either way.

I need to ISO him and figure it out, gun-to-head I like Moment better than him

[Dannflor]

Yea honestly, I'm just waiting for the lower people to post more. I'm hoping more interactions there will be revealing

[Dannflor]

Dann can you expand on how you got from DT being a potential pairing for Nancy to being a potential pairing for S_S?

At that point I didn't have Nancy as lock town. I was pretty set on going with Pink Ball and those two seemed like the ones who would get along with her most out of the gents left (excluding you or me)

I would probably a push a potential Pvt/Gamma pair over DT/SS as first lynch, at least until Pvt is forced to engage with me on some level

[Dannflor]

Why is Gamma scummier than SS, Dann?

I don't think that. Gamma is a solid null. PvT is scummier than SS.

pedit:

that and I'm not feeling the ability to push a universal town read that really shouldn't be.

like please just explain why

even if you have trouble putting it into words or it's not done well I don't care I'm not gonna think you're any scummier because you're awkward I just want to engage with you and figure out why you read me the way you do because seeing people's thought processes is how i read people and it'll definitely help me read you better

[Dannflor]

I dunno. I dunno who I'd push. My head gets seriously fucked with trying to read Pvt because he's straight up ignoring me and that's extremely frustrating. But other people in this game that I trust like Pink Bell have him pretty solidly as town so I'm really second guessing myself on whether i can actually read him well.

Also, aside from Allo I have no super strong scum reads and I'm dealing with the problem of this game state causing me to get really paranoid about where the mafia might be.

I need a break I'll be back tomorrow

pedit: he's talking about me krazy

wouldn't you want Pvt paired with SS then? I don't get why you agreed with PB's list as presented then

That actually does make more sense. I would prefer a Pvt/SS lynch and then sort DT/Gamma seperately because they're both null

[Dannflor]

Hi, I can't sleep, so I'm back, but I got my break. I'll also be busy all day tomorrow so wanted to get one last check in before I'm gone for potentially 24 hours. (also relatively busy most of the week)

Spoiler: pvt and dt

So, PvT is town. I don't see any other explanation.

Right now I'm more worried about what I can learn from the game, rather than what I can do for town here. Regardless of Dann's actual allignment, I've royally screwed myself with my tunnel in a place where I'm not feeling the ability to push it (first time for this to appear), as well as the ability to read the game without tilt or bias.

I'd avocate for a Dann flip, but it's much more for my selfish, ego related reasons than what's potentially best for the game.

Just haven't been knowing how to interact or progress with the game for the past few days.

This alone makes me feel somewhat better. It circles back to what was said before about how scum has basically no motivation to put themselves in this position or 1v1 me at this stage of the game. This post outlines that... and it's genuine. I really believe that Pvt really believes I am scum, and is unable to see past that to the the rest of the game.

@Pvt

, I want to ask you, if you pretend I flip town, who do you think is scum? It's kinda okay if you can't answer that though, I don't expect you to. I fully believe you just can't see past me in this game. While unfortunate, it definitely makes you town.

didnt read Pvt's iso at all, but in general

scums do not want to be too dense with their behavior in the thread. when confronted, they are likely to cooperate, unless they are lika a pretty experienced scum if you know what i mean i think when i checked his post count it wasn't too many posts

idk if there are people better at reading him and they read him town and if his 'attitude' is a main reason you scum read him, chances are, he's just a stubborn town who is just being a stick up his butt because they cant handle being 'wrongly' scum read (cough cough nancy cough cough)

This too, simultaneously makes me feel good about both Thomas and PvT. I'll admit I've been very frustrated with not being able to engage with Pvt, but this logic of "scums do not want to be too dense with their behavior" is absolutely correct. And is much more sense than whatever emotions I was feeling.

As far as DT, I really like the logic here and it's consistent with other good towny thoughts he's had:

it's just gut tone read. they seem to have "i dont care about what others think" and expresses opinion in a bold way

of course, scums also try to manipulate this kinda tone, but the genuinity is different slightly, imo, when they are scum and town

scums are afraid to admit this and publicly announce it

I like this sort of logic a lot and I think reads based on it is a lot more likely to be driven from a town place than not. It's not surface level and it's the type of logic I mindmeld with a lot. Additionally, I think DT is town for similar reasons I strongly townread Taly. A Town vs. Town 1v1 between me and PvT is good for scum. Straight up. Pvt likely gets lynched at some point and enough paranoia is sewn about me that maybe I can get lynched later. Town vs. Town 1v1s are ALWAYS good for scum and that's what I strongly believe this is now. DT stepping in to try and explain why my read on PvT may be wrong and not stoking the flames is a very town motivated move.

While I'm catching up on the most recent pages, I can also say Pvt is town for the same reasons, for this:

I'm feeling one/both of you are missing eachothers points here

Not as strong as what Taly or DT did of course, but combined with all the other stuff, also makes me feel good about Pvt. Anyways, moving on.

Pvt's case on me is... I mean, I believe he thinks it means I'm scum. And I'll admit my entrance was not the best or leastways not the most alignment indicative. But, Pvt, I do see you conf biasing and I think you're just straight up avoiding my later play? By conf biasing I mean the way you interpret my #211 to be complaining about the state of the game when I'm responding to being called out for my NAI mech talk (which is fair) by pointing out that no one has done much of anything AI. This is fluffy game. More egregious is your interpretation of my #339? You're trying to imply I flipflopped on my Nancy read but where are you getting that I implied I didn't scumread Nancy in my #339? I very clearly did at that point.

I think if you continued to read my play throughout the game with an unbiased eye you would come to different conclusions too. I have a very transparent playstyle where I do go into several reads and explain why I have them. And I would hope people that think I'm scummy would point out where that is in my thought processes, if things seem contrived or if my logic is agenda driven. I've been actively trying to advance this game for a while, and my NAI entrance doesn't change that.

However, I don't expect to change your mind. I don't think I will, unfortunately. You've changed mine though, you're very town. + Pink Ball's meta case finally makes sense to me.

====================

Spoiler: reads ig

Okay, one last reads list and stuff as I gather my thoughts since I'll be busy this coming week and my activity will probably be lower until the pre-dance deadline. I don't think posting full lists is as dangerous anymore considering we have the main pairings figured out and the others are coming together.

The reads in the individual lines aren't in any particualar order

Confident Town: Taly, Nancy, Pvturist
Town: DoubtingThomas, Krazy, Ankamius, RadiantCowbells, Dr Worm, Pink Ball
Prolly Town: Firebringer, Vedith, TheBrie
=====
Null: Gamma, Moment
=====
maybe scum?: Something_Smart (this is a volatile read)
Prolly Scum: Allomancer

Actually, writing it at, my pool for scum is pretty low. But I'm okay with that, I feel like I have good reasons to town read the people I town read. The gamestate is still problematic because I think things would feel different if scum were actually in trouble, but maybe I'm wrong. Almost wrote out several paragraphs on that topic but realized it was useless to talk about now and we should probably just cross that bridge when we come to it. Firebringer is maybe my least sure town read, but I think that's only because it's been a while since I've seen him do anything and I've mostly been trusting people that can read him/his style well.

After working through my PvT read logically, I really really don't see how he can be scum beyond some WIFOM arguments. But even the WIFOM arguments don't make sense.

So with that, my personal ideal pairs would probably be TheBrie/Doubting_Thomas or TheBrie/Pvturist as a strong town pair. Than whichever gent of those two doesn't go with Brie should go with the most town out of Gamma/Moment/Something_Smart. I'm including S_S because my read on him keeps oscillating every time I look at his ISO and I think he could potentially be a town read depending on what he does going forward. The remaining two can pair, that last one will probably be the first lynch.

Still don't think Allo should progress

[Dannflor]

Don't have a lot of time today but wanna pop in and try to work on figuring out my lower reads/sort the slots I'm less sure about. Kinda flip flopping on SS again

Sure.

Bear in mind that my reads are still nebulous. I can make them look concrete, but don't expect me to stick to them.

Townreads are, in playerlist order, RC, Allo, Worm, Vedith, Ank, Taly.
Nulltowns are Moment, Thomas, Pink.

@

DT,

what do you think of the above? You're scum reading S_S from what I can gather, but their whole attitude this game has been along the lines of the above: making it clear that they don't really trust their reads and that they don't have strong ones (granted mostly because of replacing in)

You town read Ankamius for along the same reasoning, why doesn't the same apply to S_S?

I don't know if the fact that they're "aware of how they're perceived" is too relevant when they were explicitly stated by a few people to be a strong scum read or likely first lynch. The town instinct there is to figure out why and try to figure out what they can do to play well even when put in that position.

[Dannflor]

DT don't ignore me