Merchant's Daughter [Endgame]

[Dannflor]

This is the kind of shitposting I did not subscribe for.

Dr Worm has been more helpful and thoughtful than you

[Dannflor]

You haven't made 7 wallposts about coins which I take to be a scumclaim for you



Point me to a towngame where you do this little setup spec discussion then

And maybe stop playing guessing games and saying that every fos that comes your way is bias over being a replacement. It seems like you've spent this game more being indignant over being scumread than in sorting, although it's possible your indignation and omgusing just sticks in my memory better

@Krazy this feels pretty icky to me

I haven't played with S_S before so I don't know how valid the claims about his meta are but your comment about coin wall posts just feels awful considering that's literally how you entered the game. Regardless of meta, I doubt setup spec is ever alignment indicative and framing this in such a way to imply he's scum for not doing setup spec just feels like a weird angle to take. Mostly because that's how you entered the game and a couple people initially town read you for it. IDK where I'm going with this, it's just weird and I don't really think you're scum but your scum read on S_S feels weird enough that I think it may warrant rereading or something because it doesn't seem genuine (maybe you're just conf biasing)

Plus, your second talking point about him being aware about his scum reads comes directly from Doubting_Thomas, and you haven't mentioned it at all before so idk where you are pulling "indignation and omgusing" from

[Dannflor]

this is also like the 11th time I felt like Dann was turning on someone shortly after other people had started to push on the slot and it's one reason I liked Pvt airing his skepticism of that slot. I still lean town on Dann but if there is a deepwolf he is the slot I am most worried about. I think Dann's posts bug me a lot at times and I think Pvt is pretty likely town to get pinged by his posts, even if he's possibly wrong.

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

so, I wasn't going to tell you this, because I wanted to see what Nancy thought in our PT. but I think I should just be upfront, because this is getting really silly

From my perspective, you are the slot I am most worried about being a deep wolf. This post doesn't make me feel better. You have fucking mentioned how paranoid you are about me AT LEAST 20 times this game and I'm not even exaggerating. I don't have the time right now but I bet I could quote every post you've thrown slight shade or suspicion towards my slot and it would be a fucking wall. Now, I understand your paranoia towards me slot. I know where it comes from and what game it comes from and (I think I know your alt?) it's perfectly justified honestly. It's one of the reasons I've town ready you since the beginning because that paranoia seems like a town instinct.

But I've become paranoid of you. The amount of times you've brought up this thing you can't talk about it and even used PvT to exacerbate it seems like you're setting yourself up to have me as [strong town] until it becomes inconvenient. Maybe you want us our two pairs to be end game so you can make a convincing/natural case on me through this.

You just said my posts bug you a lot when I'm pretty sure a while back you said something along the lines of "only one or two things Dann has said has ever pinged me," which I can find the exact quote later, don't have time right now

I've town read you since the beginning but I feel the exact same paranoia towards you that I think you have towards me right now. I would also like to see the apparent "11" times I've turned on someone, because I'm pretty sure I can find 20 times you've thrown shade of me despite me being one of your top town reads. Although, no wait, apparently I'm a "lean town" now.

I just find this situation very silly and a little frustrating if we're both town because it's getting to the point where I think it'll start exemplifying the over-paranoia and second guessing town get a lot when a game goes on long enough or too smoothly. I like your paranoia of me, but the amount of times you've fucking pushed it and the ways you've done so continuing with this most recent post make me just as paranoid about you I have to be hoenst

I jsut needed to put that out there because if you're scum we'll have to 1v1 eventually anyway, and if you're town I want you to have an accurate read on me and I think not hiding this from you will help

sorry if that wasn't coherent I have very little time

[Dannflor]

I still think Pvt's push on you was a good discussion at the time and was kinda pissed that people seemed to come in and shit on him for it, and actually working through that naturally I think might have helped me feel better about you, instead that conversation felt like it was kinda blown past before you even had a need or opportunity to rebut his points so I could see more of your thought process there

*I'm not doing good at this logging out thing rn but I will try 0.o*

I think it was good discussion too and I'm actually really glad you goaded him into posting his case on me. Maybe it wasn't as productive as it could have been but I've been wanting to see his thought processes towards me all game and it made me feel so much better about him knowing that he seemed to be coming from a legitimate place and wasn't just tunneling me for some WIFOM scum reason or to be difficult.

My reads on some people in the game have waffled a lot, and I think that adding to your paranoia of me is fine. I don't think my paranoia of you matters too much, which is why I didn't bring it up before. It's the sort of thing that I don't have to deal with until later, crossing that bridge when it comes to it, and I'm just hoping I don't have to. I think we just have to accept that we're both gonna be lowkey paranoid of the other for a while because each of us is the most likely "deep wolf" from the others perspective, and that it's probably a good thing that it's there at least to some degree

idk, anyway my earlier post was not turning on you. I definitely still town read you, I just wanted to let you know I didn't find that specific post very good, which is why I directed it at you specifically, because I wanted to engage with you on it. I feel better after yours + S_S's explanation

anyway good night I really have to log off now too

[Dannflor]

I don't think this ever got answered btw.

he was not

at least as far as I know lol

[Dannflor]

i was indeed

the game was also like 7 years ago and I was 12, so take that how you will

[Dannflor]

go for it?

[Dannflor]

not too much

I know you have a reputation for being really good

I think I read some mafia discussion thread where you were arguing with Persivul and he accused you of lowering your scum game or to boost your town win rate or something

mostly just that you're a (pretty?) respected player and sometimes try hard

[Dannflor]

was that the game where he complained endlessly about the setup being unbalanced afterwards, because i think I skimmed the end of that too lol

[Dannflor]

also I did indeed get lynched that game lmao

ok I read some game with persivul as scum where he was mad that it was town sided, but maybe that's too general a descriptor

I'm off for real now, will still try to get on at least once a day this week. I like S_S a lot more as town now, pair her with towniest gent, probably PvT, I'm null on moment but I trust RC/Ank if that's their consensus. and let me know if DT ever answers my questions from earlier.

[Dannflor]

I support a no lynch Dance 1. I'll hopefully be around enough that the shorter deadline won't matter.

Overall I think it's worthwhile given the state of the game and just to avoid the coin mechanic. I don't trust someone won't accidentally get lynched because voters forgot how many coins they had.

VOTE: No Lynch Dance 1

How long till the deadline and are people even gonna get online in time to pair?

[Dannflor]

someone shoot me

i didnt want to go strong on any reads in Pre-Dance or talk so much in the last 2 days of Pre-Dance and im violating both shamelessly

i need to hide ASAP

no you are good Taly <3

I wanted to echo that I really enjoy this playerlist and setup as well even though that was from your post 9 pages ago but whatever I just read it so that's what really counts

Also, I found your PvT case interesting, but it just kinda compounds the conundrum of

why

scum in his position would do that. Like, it seems like rather illogical play regardless of alignment, and imo town is more likely to just have games where they're obviously playing illogically or poorly.

[Dannflor]

With the way town have gone about this, any scum not pocketing is pretty much doomed this game

I agree but I'm not sure the relation to my post

[Dannflor]

If urist doesn't pair today and flips scum, I'll reconsider my read on DanceFloor.

If he does flip scum, that's exactly what he wants

[Dannflor]

I'm mostly just waiting around for my PT to do further analysis/reconsider my reads. I don't think it's healthy for me to get too inside my head before we have any information to go off of. Plus, it'll be nice to have someone else to keep me in check in a less of a clusterfuck environment than this thread.

[Dannflor]

and wheres end of pre dance

like tonight/tomorrow iirc

[Dannflor]

I think we have until tomorrow morning 9:45 my time if my math is correct soo....

Pre-Dance is over ~15ish hours from when this post is sent

[Dannflor]

9:45 PST, sooo day ends 12:45 EST

[Dannflor]

Ank are you scum?

Your pair is locktown

ok I'm probably taking things out of context or misunderstanding but I just wanna be clear, Krazy do you scum read Ank?

[Dannflor]

stop fucking fighting over nothing when your boi doesnt even have a partner and is about to die

this is rlly sad to watch where the fuck are all the people who are about to die lmao

why don't you just dj for the dance who needs a date

[Dannflor]

No I'm just annoyed at her for not getting my snide humor

oh yea I actually laughed when I saw "suggestion noted" scrolling through, love the dry humor

[Dannflor]

I think earlier S_S wanted to pair with someone not town read because he was feeling like first lynch? Probably changed now that more people town read him

[Dannflor]

There once was a player named Allomancer
Who himself was quite the fine dancer
His only dream was a date
Alas, he could not find a mate
And so, poor Allo died of cancer

[Dannflor]

Why are you so likeable? Don't you realize our love is forbidden?

we shall reunite perhaps

in another time

in another place

another life

[Dannflor]

*stares in emo*

[Dannflor]

it's technically twilight now i feel no guilt for shit posting

[Dannflor]

blah

VOTE: No Lynch

Any reason to wait on this?

[Dannflor]

I really wanna know how Pvt ends up sorting/reading Gamma. I was discussing with Nancy that I think Gamma is town during intermission, but it's really hard to sort her given her presence in the game and the fact that she hasn't been fully into it. It'll probably be easier/more effective in a PT where Gamma is focused and isn't distracted with squabbling about random things.

pedit: or Gamma can jam out reads and we can read her better that way lol

[Dannflor]

Interesting given I was stated to be first lynch. Is there anything beyond WiFoM that would explain that selection?

Were you stated to be the first lynch?

It throws suspicion on me first of all, especially as someone stated yesterday that they thought me vs. PvT was SvT.

Also, if you're scum, it makes you safer or at least forces town to get rid of their IC to get rid of you.

The NK makes sense. RC/Ank had become pretty much universally town read and Krazy and I both have a decent amount of paranoia directed towards us

[Dannflor]

Interesting given I was stated to be first lynch. Is there anything beyond WiFoM that would explain that selection?

If you're town, probably this. This is downside/upside of not lynching in Dance 1; it means the IC is on a lower-ranked pairing, and so the partner will be under more suspicion (rightfully or wrongfully).

I'm slightly more inclined to think the IC was put on a scum pair if only to force town to get rid of it early.

Like, scum knows the lower pairs aren't going to last long regardless. If they put it on a town pair, they risk the pair towning it up and becoming a threat. At least this way they can either save an already dead-in-the-water scum or force town to get rid of their IC.

Those are my initial thoughts, someone check my logic please

[Dannflor]

Gamma, what are your reads? You didn't get to participate too much in the last phase so I'm unsure what your general thoughts are about the game

[Dannflor]

I'm slightly more inclined to think the IC was put on a scum pair if only to force town to get rid of it early.

Like, scum knows the lower pairs aren't going to last long regardless. If they put it on a town pair, they risk the pair towning it up and becoming a threat. At least this way they can either save an already dead-in-the-water scum or force town to get rid of their IC.

Those are my initial thoughts, someone check my logic please

very hesitant on this because I was town reading Gamma during intermission

WIFOM is possible too I guess

[Dannflor]

I do have reads. I suspect DT and Dr. Worm. Krazy, you, Urist, and Vedith are about what my town pool is rn. Nancy I'm pretty much at "begrudgingly town". Moment I want to stop ignoring me. I have reads, but they're certainly incomplete and there's a lot of circlejerking around the same slots which doesn't help.

I am townreading Allo most I think, but here's the thing: I actually want to pair with Moment because I feel like they're deliberately ignoring me, and being in a PT with them puts them right where I can grill them.

This is what I found of your reads. Are DT and Dr. Worm still your top suspects?

What about the slots you haven't mentioned?

[Dannflor]

SS I love you and you are a godly poet

[Dannflor]

Yes I'm saying he could be wrong on one pairing and you could use that to your benefit. SS if you're town, you think this doesn't make sense? 'cause I think it's pretty easy to understand what I'm saying.

I think it doesn't make sense, yes. Even if there's one scum is Dann/Nancy/Moment/Brie, lynching all the other pairs won't win scum the game; those two pairs will still get a chance to figure it out. Furthermore, there's no guarantee that people will respect RC's reads after he's dead.

Killing the town pair in those two seems stronger from that position. That way, RC will be alive and actively defending the other one, and he'll push to have them endgame, since he said multiple times he expected to be paranoia lynched. The only way this would be worse is if I'd think it would be absolutely impossible to paranoia lynch RC, which wouldn't make any sense with the way I've been playing.

I don't follow this. RC/Ank were a widely town read pair too, what makes it less likely RC/Ank + end game pair wouldn't be able to figure out who the potential final scum is over Dann/Nancy/Moment/Brie? In fact, that situation seems even more dangerous just because RC is there.

I have to double check this, but wasn't RC expressing last minute doubts about Brie, however?

[Dannflor]

This was the list I gave Nancy during intermission:

Dannflor / Nancy
Ankamius / RC

=====

Krazy/Taly
Pvt/Gamma
Pink Ball/Dr Worm

=====

Moment/TheBrie
Vedith/FireBringer
DT/SS

This wasn't necessarily individual reads of players, but where I think scum is most likely. 0 in the top bracket, one max in the top bracket, and likely two in the bottom bracket.

The IC made me think Gamma could be mechanically scum more likely, but I feel like I have a pretty good town read on her, and if PvT is leaning town on her, I'm content with that read. I agree with Vedith (wow) that FB might be scum here? #4429 in particular pings me as scum realizing they messed up and trying to get back on Vedith's good side. I'm a little worried it's just FB not being invested but... I'm confused why a PT with Vedith wouldn't help FB get more invested/have fun.

@Vedith can you elaborate on your theory as to why FB stopped responding why you're pretty sure that means he's scum? Also, I doubt anything I say will have an impact on what you do, but maybe wait to leave the dance until you've had a chance to interact with everyone and their reads? I think you're likely town and if you're really planning to flip more info would be good.

My current readslist

Vedith

-

Firebringer

Dr Worm - Pink Ball

Krazy

-

Taly

Dannflor - Nancy Drew 39

Moment

-

TheBrie

DoubtingThomas

-

Something_Smart

PvtUrist

-

Gamma Emerald

I don't necessarily want to push SS/DT riight away, especially because I think SS is town. I want to see what SS thinks of DT in their PT. Also, if Vedith/FB is gonna resolve itself, we should wait for that too. I also have a few too many town reads, but that's standard for me. I tend to look for reasons people are town first (opposite of Vedith), and then revisit the weaker reads later.

[Dannflor]

I don't follow this. RC/Ank were a widely town read pair too, what makes it less likely RC/Ank + end game pair wouldn't be able to figure out who the potential final scum is over Dann/Nancy/Moment/Brie? In fact, that situation seems even more dangerous just because RC is there.

RC seemed pretty confident he would be paranoia lynched at some point, and for good reason, because a lot of people get paranoid of him very easily. His plan was made without his survival in mind. This is independent of whether or not his pair was townread (and I'd say they were fairly townread but not incredibly so, although maybe more people townread them than were vocal about it).

I too, have had a lot of paranoia/general suspicion thrown my way, more than RC I think. I don't think anyone outright scum read RC?

The problem is RC had his doubts about Brie iirc, which puts that pair into slight question, and I've had paranoia and scum reads thrown my way since the start of the game, so taking one of our pairs out isn't necessarily better than taking out RC/Ank if scum thinks they won't be able to lynch them.

[Dannflor]

Vedith - Firebringer

Dr Worm

-

Pink Ball

Krazy

- Taly

Dancefloor

-

Nancy Drew 39

Moment - TheBrie
DoubtingThomas - Something_Smart

PvtUrist

-

Gamma Emerald

Current town-reads. Dark greens are conf/strong town, light greens are lean town.

Can you elaborate on Pink Ball strong-town? I don't necessarily disagree with a town read I've just been lowkey paranoid of being pocketed there.

[Dannflor]

SS, what are your reads?

[Dannflor]

2) I don't follow your townread on me because a big portion of the stated reason behind it in this game is on meta, and we haven't played before.

My town read on you has nothing to do with meta and I've gone into it pretty thoroughly btw

Just letting you know if you missed it that there are reasons ppl might town read you besides just meta (which isn't a super reliable tool anyways)

[Dannflor]

Do I not exist anymore lol

pedit: ah

Is my movement due to the IC flip or something else?

[Dannflor]

Can you evaluate my back-and-forth with Vedith the past few pages and get back to me?

I'm not to sure what exactly you want me to evaluate.

It reads to me like clashing townies who just have different ways of approaching the game and don't necessarily have similar reads. It's best if you try to understand how/why Vedith is getting to his positions and reads (vice versa too), instead of arguing over methods.

[Dannflor]

Honestly it's mostly due to that marathon game lol. You played pretty similarly there to here.

oh jesus I'd mentally repressed that

I guess that's fair? I don't really agree that I played similarly and i'd question using marathon meta in general, but that seems like a natural read progression to me so I'm fine with that explanation

[Dannflor]

I don't know why Dann-scum would be content with having Urist as an IC.

I'm pretty sure Dann-scum would be more than content to IC the partner of the most scumread player in the game.

When was Gamm the most scumread player in the game? What?

[Dannflor]

I'm not arguing with him. I don't like how I've been portrayed as being forceful or aggressive.

I'm TRYING to understand him.

Why is Vedith town to you?

I don't mean to portray you as that either, I just mean you guys have very different styles and they're clearly clashing.

I had Vedith as an early town-lean for his behavior and attitude towards the start of the game, but that kinda waned with time as he disappeared as soon as he got a match and refused to participate anymore.

He's reassured me by coming back now with reads and analysis. Also, I don't think he's joking about suiciding when he says he scum reads Fire and would leave him. Don't think scum backs themselves into that corner when trading 1 for 1 for FB of all players isn't worth.

[Dannflor]

I think you and DT had good amounts of suspicion. Maybe you less so towards the end. I just don't remember Gamma be singled out as top scum read, I should go back and reread some stuff.

[Dannflor]

i think i'm back to thinking brie is town

moment/brie and nd/dannflor

all 4 of those ppl are near 100%

NVM to what I said earlier about Brie

Just double checked and RC had gone back to thinking she was town

[Dannflor]

Vedith only has 4 individual townreads in a game of 16 players left alive and we are nearing 5000 posts in, and the only town/town pair to him consists of the person who just got IC'ed.

The only scum/scum pair he has consists of who the IC pushed the most Pre-Dance. (Urist on Dann)

His townread on me is least understated or understood out of the entire playerlist since the strongest townreads on me are meta based and we haven't played before to my memory.

I mean Vedith should try to explain his reads, and I think he said he'd address them once he got to a computer, so we can wait for that.

I do think you're both being tripped up a bit because Vedith's play style is much more focused on find scum than find town

[Dannflor]

Kind of wonder about his early Urist townread, as he didn't engage much with Urists' posts about him and then Urist got IC'ed when people began to push him.

I didn't have an early Urist townread. In fact, I scum read him until he was finally pushed to write up a case on me, and then I realized he was probably conf biasing town.

[Dannflor]

@SS, has DT posted in the PT at all yet or is he MIA?

[Dannflor]

Hi I have a lot of thoughts but also a D&D session to do so I'll be back later tonight (5-6 hours) with more input, particularly on Brie + Moment + DT

I am a little concerned how easily people are forgetting RC had Brie/Moment as one of his near 100% T/T pairings. I'm not saying everyone has to agree with that, but the readiness with which people are willing to get rid of that pairing and forgetting about that strikes me as odd. May even be LHF precisely because of low activity. People who do scum read Moment/TheBrie in particular, could you go more in depth on those reads?

Sorry to just pop in like this but busy day. I have more to respond to and stuff to say that'll happen tonight. No more flips until I at least get to do that please

[Dannflor]

I'm not following. Wouldn't keeping RC and Ank alive be optimal since they would defend that pair?

[Dannflor]

Hey

[Dannflor]

bout to take on the Thomas meta dive challenge 2k19 wish me luck boys and girls

[Dannflor]

This is difficult. Gut reads I'm just gonna go 2, 3, 5 as town and 1 and 4 as scum

[Dannflor]

Welp I suck

[Dannflor]

Look in Krazy's ISO, he setup a meta dive game on DT.

Wall or two incoming before I go to bed, we need a flip tomorrow.

[Dannflor]

I originally gave DT a town read in #3418, which reading back, I believe are pretty weak reasons. The posts I outline in DT's ISO that I think are representative of towny thought processes... aren't that impressive? I may have too hastily lumped DT into my sudden strong PvT town read just due to DT's explanation in #3216 where he lowkey supported a PvT town. I'm not sure if that's something scum wouldn't point out that. The same goes for his other "towny" talking points.

#1265Gets referenced a lot when explaining town reads on the DT slot... and I don't get it? It's a bunch of gut/tone reads and then justification for not having to explain those.

i also partly dont like explaining every single small things that come to my mind because

1) chances are they are wrong
2) chances are my own opinion of them change later on
3) they clog up the thread unnecessarily we honestly don't need every single detail of thoughts that I have

now, if you accept my love reqeust and we get a lovers chat, i can, of course, explain all the little things you want

This actually pings me quite a bit. Sure, you can be like "scum would never wanna be this brazen and admit this," but I don't think that's a strong enough argument.

1) Town shouldn't care about being wrong. Rather, they shouldn't care about that potential making them look suspicious. Scum care if they're caught being wrong and the associatives look bad for them.
2) Opinion changes are natural and one of the hardest things in the game for scum to fake with authenticity.
3) Sure... But there's a difference between clogging up the thread unnecessarily with every single detail and just saying "x is town" and "x is scum" off of pure gut and tone reads.

My problem with DT is that the things people point to when they say he looks towny are fairly lazy and not proactive. His entire ISO is waiting for people to come to him and interact with him. Very rarely does he take the initiative in pressuring people and it doesn't look like he's trying to proactively solve the game. There's a lot of "engage with me," but not a lot of engaging that's actually solving.

Like, I actually am calling you a flat out liar about you claiming to come on at the same time as me.

how the fuck am i a liar?

i never fucking lie as either alignment

like as scum i would definitely scum read you for things i would scum read as town to begin with so i dont understand what you mean by calling me a liar lol

Stuff like this also makes me doubt the strength of town reads on him. I think people tend to like him for how genuine his reads seem, but their surface level enough that I don't see why it couldn't just as easily be faked by scum.

Look at his progression in the pre-dance too:

Spoiler:

i think i am at the point where i'd rather just out in pre dance if i dont get brie maybe

This pings me. Specifically because it's so noncommittal. RC and Ank were obv!town because it was blatantly obvious they both believed the other was scum and was willing to leave the dance to take the other one out. Here, DT suggests he might just stay out of the pre-dance since he scum reads both Gamma and SS. Hey! That might actually be good for town and it's obviously a town motivated thing to do. Except he's never gonna actually do this, so what's the point in saying this?

taly i am at the point where i can sheep you shamelessly


who should i pair up with

and who are your scum reads

can we like start talking about parnters

@everyone who doesnt have a partner

but that means i need an actual town partner

who wants to partner up with me :/

Gamma, are you town?

stop fucking fighting over nothing when your boi doesnt even have a partner and is about to die

You, Pvt, Allo, Gamma, me.

I'm annoyed Brie took Moment's invitation without waiting for him to okay it, but I feel like the fact that I waited and Brie didn't should make me clearly town.

I like this post

gamma, if ss doesn't accept my shit and take whoever you want, will you take me to da dance

I just don't like the progression from "maybe I should just sit out" to looking for reasons to town read one of SS or Gamma. This is the kind of desperation I don't like. I don't think it's genuine trying to figure out who among the last ladies is scummier or townies, it's just looking for reasons to town read one of them so he can look fine going to the dance with them.

I'm also concerned that DT isn't actually pushing anyone. Like SS/DT is probably gonna be the first or second lynch and yet... His big most recent wall post is just defending himself from Krazy's meta case. He isn't offering up alternatives, and idk what his scum reads even are atm. Gamma?

@Thomas,

which pair is your preferred first lynch? And why haven't you made any efforts to push there? What are your reads rnow? Is SS strong town? Have you guys interacted in your PT at all?

@SS,

I think you're pretty strongly town. What is your read on DT? Also, I know you're struggling because your scum reads are all strongly town read by someone. But who is your first lynch ideally if you had complete control? Me and Nancy? What if we both flipped town?

I really really don't think we should be lynching Moment/Brie first. I have Brie as pretty strongly town (something I should probably elaborate on when I have mroe sleep tomorrow) and while I don't have a good read on Moment, I really think the amount RC + Ank pushed for Moment!town + the fact Moment hasn't even posted yet means lynching there is a terrible idea. Obviously, inactivity is harmful either way, but we might be fucking up a really strong T/T pairing as Ank and RC thought without even letting Moment get her thoughts in. I feel like maybe scum saw Moment/Brie as a threat pre-dance and are now trying to quickly dispatch of them.

There's also the fact that the reads there feel... Pretty lackluster? Nancy can't elaborate on her Brie read, Gamma's scum reading Moment for... not answering some question 30 pages ago. I forget what else. It's just scaring me how this pairing is the first being pushed after RC and Ank died. At the very least, it shouldn't be the first flip imo.

VOTE: DT

[Dannflor]

Please don’t lump me in with any of this. Moment’s absence is definitely hurting the game, we can’t ignore that fact. There is only a little over 5 days left! And no, I can’t elaborate on Brie, because as I already told you in our PT, I don’t want to get into trouble. I’m kind of upset that you seem to have jumped to the wrong conclusion. Sure, I absolutely could elaborate on it but I don’t know how to do that without being in violation of site rules. Yes, it’s extremely frustrating but not wanting to risk a ban is /= to lacking reasons. Whenever I say in any game ever, that I can’t elaborate or discuss anything, that is ALWAYS what I mea

Hey sorry, I should have explained better. I know you really can't elaborate for good reason, it's more as a whole the reasons for pushing Brie/Moment (particularly from Gamma) seem weak. Yours may not be, but unfortunately it's hard for me to be sure because you can't really explain it. Didn't mean to misconstrue you

[Dannflor]

Also, I don't think I want a Moment+TheBrie lynch right now at all.

I want to reread Moment, and I think TheBrie is town.

+1

[Dannflor]

DT and moment both tbh. Eventhough I’m currently hardtownreading Dann, I don’t understand why he isn’t taking this into account. As far as I’m concerned, not posting in your PT/not doing anything to either help sort your partner/be sorted by them/giving reads’ post-flip is not pro-town irrespective of your alignment. Like we only have 5 days left, so everyone who’s town here, absolutely needs to be doing this.

Yea, this is awful. If Moment and the Brie are town this puts our odds at winning way down because this could be a good pair to have around, but we might have to flip it next just for information since it can't give us much with Moment MIA. I'm just hoping Moment comes back because I think Brie is pretty town rnow

[Dannflor]

who is left. vedith and firebringer? vedith can be scum although i liked the way firebringer threatened to leave the dance in case vedith votes with his high number of coins and the way she reacted to me asking her a question about it

Oh. Hmm. I want to townread this...

My first reaction too :/

[Dannflor]

that sounds like she was very preoccupied with surviving, which is odd because there are more gents so chances are she would always have an invitation even if S_S takes moment away from her. maybe she wanted moment to not be paired with S_S on purpose? this is something i should look at despite reading her tone pretty high town in intermission.

I mean... were you not pretty occupied with surviving as well at the end of pre-dance? That's what most of your posts are about

[Dannflor]

were about*

[Dannflor]

scummy overreaction, tbh

I thought you were down on Nancy for

not

being as emotional and stuff

[Dannflor]

Nancy's sort of the same way, I've seen her push with real emotion in other games and I haven't seen much of it here. From my memory a lot of her reads have been lackluster.

nvm that was SS my b

[Dannflor]

And I'm officially second guessing myself

Can DT/SS be a strong town pair?

[Dannflor]

I think Gamma has done very little solving and noone really town reads her. I think the way she got mad and attacked me out of nowehre is extremely scummy because she was blatantly lying about my progression on her. I think she can go, but I can accept why people wouldn't want to lynch her because she is lovers with an IC.

In that sense, I think Brie also has very high scum equity especially with her performance today. I haven't read Moment at all. hopefully he comes back soon. maybe ill iso him eventually.

I think nancy has good scum equity as well for oddly attacking me for not talking in lovers PT when i simply havent been on. I also think it was weird for her to give a reason for twon reading dann by using a post itt despite having lovers PT she so loves to talk about with him. i think dann is kinda townie for his posts tho and i initially town read nancy, so i personally prefer brie's lynch who i scum read harder and have no opinion on the lover for

So, why aren't you voting Brie?

[Dannflor]

waiting to talk to S_S about stuff. he's been gone now.

I wasn't sure if we vote as a pair or not and wanted to hear S_S's opinion. Also think we have couple days left before voting?

why should i vote so early in the day phase?

We have 5 days left until the end of the game

The rest of the game must be played out within those five days. If we don't start getting flips soon, we're gonna have a lot less time to deal with potential lylo situations.

The fact that today has consisted mostly of you defending yourself and getting you to commit strongly to any one push is worrying.

Slowing down this day phase is strictly anti town.

[Dannflor]

i think you used the fact of me not talking in lover's PT as an excuse to set up a mislynch on our slot.

What?

Why do you think Nancy would pursue that specifically to "set up a mislynch" when both Krazy and I have been vocal about our suspicions of you? That doesn't make sense. Nancy doesn't even need to create an "excuse" to set up a mislynch with your slot because it's very likely your pair or Moment/Brie is going first anyway. I don't follow this train of thought.

[Dannflor]

Oh I thought we get a week or so of time per lynching?

but the entire game ends at the end of the five days? what happens if we have a situation where only like 1 scum is alive with a lot of townies so parity is not reached by the end of the 5? scums still win?

During the dances, normal nightless lynch mechanics will take over. A lynch will NOT reset the deadline. If the Mafia makes up 50% or more of the remaining players at any point, Mafia immediately wins. If all of the Mafia are lynched, then Town wins. If the game runs out of time and at least one Mafia is still alive, then Mafia wins.

idk if the fact you straight up haven't read the set up is AI or not

[Dannflor]

you apparently 'town read' me earlier, but it dropped down. then you started scum reading me because 'i don't post on PT' then you constantly ask me asinine questions like 'why haven't you posted in lovers PT?'

well because i havent been fucking logged onto mafia scum, kid

I think you are just asking me questions for the sake of asking questions to make me look scummy

i think you used the fact of me not talking in lover's PT as an excuse to set up a mislynch on our slot.

I actually really don't think this is town.

[Dannflor]

vote me

I am

[Dannflor]

vote me

He is the second vote on your wagon. He is.

You don't even know who is voting you!!!!!

I'm stepping away from this thread but this slot needs to GO TODAY.

FFS.

Then that's fucking weird isn't it

I actually really don't think this is town.

fucking implies he didn't think I was scum before, imo. yet he was already voting me.

I think this is a potential slip tbh

What the fuck

Now you're just flinging dirt everywhere with no rhyme or reason

I know you didn't miss my wall of a case on you + my vote on you because you called me town for it

Me saying I don't think this specific post is town does not mean I thought you were town before

[Dannflor]

vote me

I am

then why the hell did you want to mention abotu how you don't believe I am actually town? even though you already shouldn't havebelieve that when you voted me?

I initially questioned the reasoning behind your post because it didn't make sense

then after thinking about it I realized it was just straight up scummy

[Dannflor]

when you ask yourself, "Why would scum do that?", that's exactly the reason why they would do that.

You are not making any sense. You think just because some others scum read you, that means you wouldn't make up an asinine reason to scum read that person?

You think Nancy changing her read on me from town to scum because I don't post in Lover's PT (which was only because I haven't been on mafiascum) is a legitimate reason to be concerned about/scum read me?

I am not sure if you understand nancy's reason to constantly pester the thread about how I didn't post in Lover's PT to be scum indicative, but you might have an idea. Why do you think Nancy is constantly mentioning that in the thread?

Because it's an important line of questioning

I myself mentioned a couple times in OUR PT that hearing from people's posts in their PTs and how they were sorting their partners would be extremely important. When the day started SS said you guys hadn't interacted, so making sure people are actually interacting in their PTs with

5 fucking days

left on the deadline is really important

yea?

[Dannflor]

so you are already scum reading someone

then you read their post

and your first impression is to think that it doesn't make sense

then you rethink about it and you think it's just straight up scummy

so you went to post about how you actually don't believe i am town?

hmmm lol ok

I was referring to your post

it's not a town post

and I wanted to make that clear because i think it should be clear to others

You've gone into full dirt flinging mode and the fact that you don't seem to be aware of the state of the game is just adding more confusion and frustration

[Dannflor]

'making sure we interact in the PT'

is not the same as constantly yapping abot

"WHERES DT"

"WHY ISNT DT POSTING IN PT"

"S_S HAVE DT TALKED IN PT?"

when i havent even posted in the game thread

Now you're rewriting history.

i regret my partner choice

How do you feel now?

@Worm, any thoughts on PB? Are you posting anything game related in your PT yet?

Also DT, are you planning to post in your PT with SS?

This is the first time Nancy asked if you were planning to post in your PT. AFTER you had already been present in the thread in Dance 2 and SS had previously stated you hadn't posted at all since Intermission.

[Dannflor]

if you stop talking now, i will still scum read gamma and brie more than you so i might not vote you

the more you talk the scummier you get

This is so manipulative

[Dannflor]

RC was scumreading Urist, so he had to be wrong on at least one townread

. Which is it if it's not Moment or TheBrie?

What?

That doesn't track

[Dannflor]

does ANYBIDY townread BOTH MOMENT/THEBREAD??

ANYBIDY??

RC does!

I town read theBrie

I don't think Moment/TB should be a first lynch in a world where Moment is AFK and RC (AND ANK) were strong proponents of this pairing. It feels like that pairing was killed off specifically so there would be no more resistance there, as there wasn't anyone else who was truly a strong proponent of the Moment/TB pairing.

I don't think scum in a Moment/TB pairing kills off RC/Ank. And I don't think the WIFOM possibilities are strong enough to make them a first lynch. Obviously, I will have to reconsider after flips and especially if Moment never shows up. But I don't think we should lynch this yet.

[Dannflor]

ok, so i asked why that post was so scummy to you?

you constantly insulting my play and belittling as full dirt flinging mode isn't gonna help me nor yourself play better.

You're painting Nancy to have a scummy agenda instead of acknowledging her concerns had merit. It's another shade of your defensive play this dance instead of actually taking the initiative and pushing somewhere yourself. To pull out the theory of "Nancy was trying to drive a mislynch with that" isn't a town narrative imo

You still have not voted

[Dannflor]

RC was scumreading Urist, so he had to be wrong on at least one townread. Which is it if it's not Moment or TheBrie?

What kind of logic is this?

He didn't have everyone as either "town" or "scum"... he had two locktown pairs and Moment/Brie was one of them.

what a terrible reason to push moment/the brie

It does not make me like that wagon anymore

[Dannflor]

I would love some credit into my reads too. I was wrong on Allo yeah, but I was right about Urist when almost everybody had him as null/scum, even RC. I was right about RC and Ank when people were paranoid on at least one of them, and I was right about Vedith and Fire since the begining of the game, when people thoufbtt Vedith was being useless and scummy.

I get that you guys think "how can be that easy, that one of Moment/TheBrie is scum? There must be something else..."; well, it ain't. That pair will give us our first red flip, and then we can get associations. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.

Let's see, I strongly town read RC and Ank. I also town read Vedith. Was wrong on Allo with you.

I don't think the strength of your reads is particularly special nor is it a good reason to get rid of Moment/TheBrie right now

[Dannflor]

What I mean is that, iirc, he had three scummiest players, and one of them is conftown, so he has to be wrong about one of the rest of the playerlist. Is a math argument, not an opinion

That's not what RC had at all and a complete misrep

He basically stated that he wanted Pvt/Gamma/Dt/SS dead but not that he necessarily scum read them. His major thing was that Dann/Nancy and Moment/Brie should be the endgame pairings. Just because PvT flipped town doesn't mean his four confident reads are somehow wrong. He was also insistent that he didn't trust the Taly/Krazy pairing.

This logic does not follow

[Dannflor]

I'm not saying we have to treat RC is gospel, we probably shouldn't

But to say one of the players he wanted to get rid of flipping IC means Moment/Brie contains scum is completely wrong

[Dannflor]

You're making a logical jump that I'm not doing. I said that, if RC had three players as the scummiest and he was wrong on one of them, then he was wrong on at least one other player who wasn't in his lynchpool. I never said he HAS to be wrong about Moment/TheBrie; that's my take. I think he was wrong about one of them, that's my opinion

His lynch pool was literally everyone but Me, Nancy, Moment, and Brie.

[Dannflor]

feeling like you are saying we should treat RC's reads like the gospel

Nope.

I'm just saying his lynch pool wasn't like 3 people, it was everyone but the two pairs. So using the logic that he was wrong about someone in his "lynch pool" meaning that one of his four confident reads are wrong doesn't follow. I'm not saying RC is gospel, but that using that logic to attack Moment/Brie straight up doesn't work.

[Dannflor]

Oh you're discussing semanthics?? He had a four players lynchpool, sorry for considering that as "the scummiest players he had as reads"

Sorry, I'm not being clear.

His "lynch pool" was everyone in the game except for the two pairs he strongly town read.

[Dannflor]

Spoiler:

pink ball's posts seem opportunistic

Oh ok I get the argument against lynching Moment and TheBrie first. I still think there's scum there.

@DT if I came and voted you, you would have said the same. Why the fuck defending you would be opportunistic

Oh ok I get the argument against lynching Moment and TheBrie first. I still think there's scum there.

@DT if I came and voted you, you would have said the same. Why the fuck defending you would be opportunistic

i am talking about how you seem to be okay with moment/thebrie/me to be lynched whenever one of us are getting pushed

like "ok ppl are scum reading DT. let's lynch moment/thebrie and then lynch DT ?"

thats scum 101

like "ok ppl are scum reading DT. let's lynch moment/thebrie and then lynch DT ?"

thats scum 101

No, you dense mofo. If Moment/TheBrie flips red, people will get associations, I clearly stated that. That would save your ass of being mislynched, something that you clearly are not being able to do

like "ok ppl are scum reading DT. let's lynch moment/thebrie and then lynch DT ?"

thats scum 101

No, you dense mofo. If Moment/TheBrie flips red, people will get associations, I clearly stated that. That would save your ass of being

mislynched

, something that you clearly are not being able to do

dude. did u just scum slip me town

I'm townreading you, idiot. I have talked about people being mislynched since the begining of the game according to my reads

These interactions read really forced to me. They came out of completely nowhere and I noted in my PT with Nancy as they were happening that it looks like a DT/PB team trying to distance last minute because it looks like they might not get their Brie/Moment flip.

I don't understand pushing Brie/Moment right now under the premise that "they shouldn't reach end game." We're not at endgame yet, and given the current circumstances PB needs to go before anyone else imo

Also, there's this:

VOTE: Moment

By the way if by any chance DT flips scum don't @ me with "you were derailing his wagon" 'cause you guys don't know Moment/TheBrie's alignment

^^^
It's also not the first time PB has tried to pre-emptively defend himself or make himself look better:

Honestly, I think Dr Worm is town. It just depends on who is willing to be in a PT with him

I really want to pair with you and I see another viable option for me. But if the optimal course of action is to pair you with someone else, I think I'll accept worm's invitation and cry for the rest of the game 'cause scum will probably IC him and lynch me because I'm prob scum who ICed him

I expect the scumteam to have me as null in this game, specially after pairing with dr worm who, despite being townread now, it's easy to "change their mind" about him and mislynch us. Guess what fuckos: not gonna happen

[Dannflor]

I think #2510 and #2947 come from scum who has realized pocketing me and riding that pair to end game isn't actually going to pan out, so they'll take a widely town read player in Dr Worm who people generally like having around instead. Then, he'll paint it as an "easy mislynch" far far in advance as a pre-emptive defense for when they fall into the PoE.

VOTE: PB

[Dannflor]

DT was consistently pushing both me and TB but voted me for most of that period and was up my ass. That tells me the TB push was likely distancing.
Also VOTE: TheBrie again

No?

DT never voted you. He didn't vote anyone until #4957, where he voted Brie.

VOTE: thebrie

[Dannflor]

My argument was that you should have had reads three days ago and that town is on the clock. I think I made exactly one post about it. Stop acting like I was talking up a storm about your post activity, that was simply me refuting the notion that there wasn't enough to work with irt your slot to get a read.

i town read SS and not scum read SS. that is not hard to understand. I think there are definite scum in Gamma or Brie. Maybe in PB, Nancy, etc if I look more into it.

As far as I know this is your reads right now. We have 5 days to solve the game. Who gets lynched today DT? Why are you continuing to bitch about me not spoonfeeding you interactions when you are presenting 0 indications of a solving mindset? Do you want Brie lynched today? Do you want Gamma to go first? Why in that order?

I have read your games and you are not this directionless as town. I feel like you just want to throw dirt at whoever is online and posting rather than working toward a gamesolve.

I thought I made my reads on other players to a certain degree so I am confused as to why you are trying to shade me this hard.

I think Gamma is obv scum but didn't realize she is partners with IC. Thinking maybe we can let them live technically just because we know for sure her partner is town and you made a fair point about gamma 'spewing'

I think Worm/PB are pretty null.

I think Brie's "reads" have been very subpar. I explained this before but you haven't read my posts properly so I will say it again

These are all of her "reads" that she made today:

Leaning towards scum on Moment, but he's not giving me anything to read. Conflicted on Pink Ball.

I went and did meta on Gamma. Her game is quite similar as town and scum, as town she's got more questions that force others to get involved and are really challenging, as a little less "Explain this" and sort of mechanical stuff, or comments on how people are playing. But it's close, and I can't tell which side this falls on. Maybe a tiny bit towards the scum side, but not enough to say anything solid. It's not outside her town range.

There's a few things that give me a scummy feel, but overall... I've not gotten her sorted out. i just know I'm not putting her solidly in as town.

In summary, she basically just says, "I lean scum. but he doesn't have any content to base my read on him. Idk Pink ball. I did meta on Gamma. I can't tell if she's town or scum. maybe a little scum. Don't have anything solid.

This is definition of hedging and she is refusing to take a stance. I think that is an overtly scum trait.

I also don't buy her explanation of insta accepting moment's invitation, as S_S pointed out

Mostly because I was afraid life would hardly let me on before the deadline. i had a couple days of full on work (waking up at three am), and I didn't know then how tired I would be the rest of the time. Bad reason.
Also, I wasn't really townreading SS then, and didn't really want her with Moment.

i don't really see scum!Moment asking scum!SS when he had a reasonable chance of town!me accepting. So currently townreading SS. Not townreading Moment, but I want to see him post again before making a final judgement.

I think this is >rand scum thing to do.

I also think Nancy constantly talking about my lover PT is >rand scum. I cannot understand why she thinks that would be NAI and scum read me for it. sounds scummy.

I think Worm's tone is townie, but I am confused as to why he completely ignored you and my interaction to talk about me at all in the last 10 pages that I read

I think Gamma has done very little solving and noone really town reads her. I think the way she got mad and attacked me out of nowehre is extremely scummy because she was blatantly lying about my progression on her. I think she can go, but I can accept why people wouldn't want to lynch her because she is lovers with an IC.

In that sense, I think Brie also has very high scum equity especially with her performance today. I haven't read Moment at all. hopefully he comes back soon. maybe ill iso him eventually.

I think nancy has good scum equity as well for oddly attacking me for not talking in lovers PT when i simply havent been on. I also think it was weird for her to give a reason for twon reading dann by using a post itt despite having lovers PT she so loves to talk about with him. i think dann is kinda townie for his posts tho and i initially town read nancy, so i personally prefer brie's lynch who i scum read harder and have no opinion on the lover for

i made all of this pretty clear in my recent posts so don't give me the "i dont see any reads from you" shit. read my shit.

i think you are just conf biasing and not reading my posts to tunnel me. i think you cussing me out is unnecessary and just provoking me really hard. believe me i can get real toxic real fast.

i don't want to go down that path so if you unnecessarily cuss me out again i will just ignore your presence and play the game around so i can at least leave a good legacy if you are just gonna deathtunnel me. i do think you are somewhat townie (despite S_S believing otherwise) and I think Taly is very townie so I don't want to get involved in a useless mess with you.

good luck with the rest of the game if you have anything intelligent to say that you want to approach me in a mature way to talk about, i'd be glad to talk. otherwise, i think you are just stuck in a tunnel and will play the game around you

So, in this post DT does say both Brie and Gamma are scum. The difference is he actually cases Brie here and I bolded a part towards the top where he says Gamma can actually be left alive. So I'd actually say he was pushing Brie more than you, Gamma.

Also good to note, right below the bolded portion, he has PB/Dr Worm as null. That, imo combined with his interactions with PB later make more sense as soft distancing.

[Dannflor]

Omg I didn't read this, are you fucking blind? You're like assuming I know that you're town, when you were one of my biggest townreads and I was having fun. Letting you pair with Nancy was protown from my perspective, why the fuck would scum!me not try to insist more and put more effort in pairing with you? Scum!me pockets you 100% in that case sweetheart.

Okay, this is somewhat true, and I totally might be conf biasing here.

From my perspective however, it felt like the game's atmosphere was guiding me towards pairing with Nancy (largely due to RC and Ank I think), and I think you pushing to pair with me any more than you already did would have looked suspicious.

Because you did push quite a bit to pair with me and stated several times you 100% wanted to be with me

Oh Taly I think I never answered you: I want you with Urist 'cause at this point he's getting scumleaned/read by a lot of people and I'm pretty sure he's town and will be pushed by scum tomorrow. You and Nancy are good partners for him to avoid that. I would offer myself but I'm not widely townread like Nancy and you.

Also I still believe DanceFloor should ask me no matter what

I accept Dr. Worm's invitation

In fact you were insistent about it in one post and then the next you snap changed and decided Dr Worm would be better. And I just don't know if you could have feasibly fought for me any more than you did without it looking suspicious.

One last thing: this is proof I was scumreading DT until I played Krazy's ISO game. This post was like 5-6 posts before playing it. I know I'm being a hypocrite since I thought Krazy could be Moment's partner because he was avoiding that lynch and I'm trying to be townread when I tried to avoid DT's lynch lmfao but whatever I have redeem my slot somehow so I have to share everything I can. My selfawareness is not scummy btw is just me sharing everything I think

Okay, fair. This progression doesn't make as much sense from scum.

I'm tired. I really don't want you to be scum. There were just so many things you said leading up to the DT lynch that gut pinged me.

I need to take a step back and wait for other people to engage with this and tell me if I'm being insane or not because I'm second guessing myself more than ever right now and it's hard for me to interact with you because of my paranoia that maybe I was just being setup to be pocketed by you from early game

^^ holy run-on sentence. I need to sleep. First thing I'll do tomorrow is re-ISO DT with fresh eyes, make sure I'm not conf biasing on what i think of his interactions

[Dannflor]

Final two pairs? Me/Nancy, Krazy/Taly

UNVOTE: pinkball

I don't know if the order we lynch the others matters too much. I'm now thinking that maybe TheBrie/Moment should go first.

scum!pinkball doesn't introduce this idea of endgame pairs and then not include himself. I'm also inclined to believe all the people who've suggested end game pairs right now are town

[Dannflor]

Although, I don't like the way Gamma voted DT conditionally as a way to set up TheBrie/Moment as her next lynch if DT flipped red.

You know what I'm gonna change course here. I've been thinking lynching the scummiest pair imo was the best move but here's the thing: DT has been playing like I'd expect a partner of one of those 2 to play. So instead I'll vote DT with the statement that upon a scumflip Public Enemies #1 & 2 imo will be TB and Moment.
VOTE: DoubtingThomas

Like, I don't know if it even makes sense to say this. If DT flipped town, would Gamma suddenly not be pushing this pair anymore?

[Dannflor]

Why does scum!PB argue for you/Taly, me/Dann as endgame pairs? I’m not following.

Yea. My thought process basically is:

1. I'm super confident at this point that Krazy, Taly, and Nancy are all town. I'm not gonna let my paranoia chip away here. If I'm wrong, that's something I'll have to deal with eventually, but I'm confident enough to not deal with this at all until endgame.

2. Operating off that assumption, the other three pairs need to go at some point. I'm not too sure the order really matters. I was thinking maybe DT/PB/Gamma yesterday, but it also could be DT/Moment/Gamma or some similar combination.

Either way, PB can't make it to end game because of his interactions with DT, he'll be too easy of a lynch if he's town. And it makes me feel good that he's recognized that. Basically, as long as the two pairs I'm confident are town survive to endgame, the order of the other flips doesn't matter too much. However, we should probably try to get most probable scum first. Right now I'm leaning towards Gamma, but I'd like to wait for PvT to chime in.

[Dannflor]

I mean at this point PB has been backed into not surviving until end game. That only makes sense as a scum play if his partner is one of Taly/Krazy/Nancy and I'm operating off the assumption these are all town until I'm proven otherwise.

[Dannflor]

I haven't really been advocating anyone leaving the dance. Obviously, that is a choice you can make. But right now Dann just said that he wants Moment to go first just because he's townreading you for saying you're going to leave the dance. So I want to see whether Dann comes back to your wagon or whether he actually puts a vote down on M-TB.

I'm second guessing myself all over the place right now, so this might sound bad, but I think I'm leaning towards Gamma first now. I want to see her case on Brie though.

[Dannflor]

@Nancy, Dann and Taly, if the game's not over after the six flips, lynch Krazy.

Also, force votes on the other two pairs if they are not leaving by themselves. @Urist, you'll have to help with that. Don't leave before Moment and TheBrie.

Leave the dance

well I guess this flips town

good bye my love

sorry I doubted you

[Dannflor]

I'm gonna go cry in the shower and wait for the flip to continue discussion

If this flips T/T like I suspect it will now, I'm really interested in how Gamma and Moment/Brie will push and act now that it looks like they'll be the next go.

[Dannflor]

Is there something in the water? Think guys, what does he gain by this other than to delay his ultimate lynch? According to this theory, he survives only one, maybe 2 lynches max. So, he knows there’s no way he’s making it to endgame anyway, so this theory is whacked. How am Taly the only ones who can see this?

I mean that's what I was saying too

I think getting down to Me/Nancy and Taly/Krazy solves the game at this point. I'm not entertaining the "what if that's too easy" thoughts right now because it's not strong enough to outweigh my town reads here.

[Dannflor]

We're not in mylo though? Or am I misunderstanding something

[Dannflor]

Yes, I thought PB was town at the end there, but he also COULD NOT survive to end game with the associations he had with DT. Maybe leaving before other flips was premature, but it did have to happen soon

[Dannflor]

Meh. I don't like the blame Krazy is receiving here. His push on PB had town motivation, just because it resulted in a T/T pairing leaving doesn't make his actions objectively wrong.

I want to vote Gamma, but I want all of Pvt/Gamma and Brie/Moment to weigh in before I do.

[Dannflor]

@Nancy I'm not trying to give you shit, it was a situation that ended in a less than optimal outcome. It sucks. Didn't mean to come off like I was telling you or anyone off. Love you all <3

I think Gamma is obv scum but didn't realize she is partners with IC. Thinking maybe we can let them live technically just because we know for sure her partner is town and you made a fair point about gamma 'spewing'
~DT

This post is so strange.

I keep coming back to this.

I think we can assume the "didn't realize she is partners with IC" is an outright lie considering DT is part of the scum team. Yes he's missed things in this game so far, but as part of the scum team, he HAD to have known where the IC was, right?

I think Gamma has done very little solving and noone really town reads her. I think the way she got mad and attacked me out of nowehre is extremely scummy because she was blatantly lying about my progression on her. I think she can go, but I can accept why people wouldn't want to lynch her because she is lovers with an IC.

Like, I kinda think this stance comes from scum using the IC to protect his buddy.

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Gamma

I wanted to wait for discussion from Moment/Pvt etc. but I'm not confident they're active enough for that to be worth waiting for.

[Dannflor]

I’m sorry but when Krazy went off on me, that just was too much. My ban ended a month ago but I was too outraged by the unfairness of it all because another player - not DT, did things far worse than me but never got into any trouble whatsoever. Sorry, I don’t mean to clog up the thread with this. I’m just glad we don’t have to deal with his garbage anymore.

I was probably overreacting. :/

You don't have to apologize. Your emotional reactions are valid regardless of the game at hand or whatever else. I do echo what Taly said about taking a break if you need though, take care of yourself <3

[Dannflor]

And I like the DT was getting himself lynched to protect someone theory.

Also possibly to allow a partner to get town cred by doing it. So who?

I mean, me or Krazy would be the answer to this. We were the two that actually cased him and were probably the driving factors in his lynch if you're only looking at a hard bus. I'm not entertaining Krazy!scum unless I have to though. I think I have enough solid reasons to town read him and factors like these mostly made up of WIFOM seem more likely to exist to disrupt town cohesion rather than being borne out of reality.

Otherwise, Gamma was also on the wagon for incredulous reasons as Taly and I have already pointed out.

[Dannflor]

Pvt (Who he said he town read, didn't seem to be aware he;d been ICed.)

I wonder if this can be considered AI at all considering Moment's involvement in this game

[Dannflor]

Well, it’s kind of like what’s the point of townreading the IC for any reasons. It’s funny anyway.

I just mean I think scum would be more likely to be aware of who the IC was, but considering Moment's activity I'm unsure

[Dannflor]

The_Bread is town

Gamma is town

Moment is lynch bait

there's 2 wolves

Can you explain your Brie and Gamma reads? It's really important that you do at this stage

[Dannflor]

@PvtUrist,

I

strongly

feel that Gamma is using this situation to his advantage to pocket you. I understand you won't readily believe this because you feel the current game state is "too easy." I understand that fear, I had it a lot earlier in the game.

It means I can't just be lazy because scum are actually putting up a fight now. I've been looking over the game and rereading things. I am

very confident

the solve is

Gamma/Brie

. I'm going to do my best to show you why. I hope you will read what I have to say and balance it with your feelings about the game state to see how likely it is.

I also have very very strong reasons to town read Taly, Krazy, and Nancy.

Let me start with Gamma and Brie, and why I think this solve is correct.

The basis of this case hinges on the fact that scum don't want to pair up with each other. I don't think it's hard to accept that scum avoided that at all costs this game. It's too risky. If just one member of the pair comes under fire, the scum team could lose two members just like that. There are rare instances where it might work, but I think it always increases mafia win rate to pair with town here. So, why is this fact so important? It's important because DT, Gamma, and Brie (my solve) were among the final players to pair up.

This means that if there was more than one scum amongst the players who paired after Nancy and I, they

had

to make sure they didn't pair with each other. Think about it. If you entertain the possibility that Gamma and theBrie could be scum, DT

absolutely does not

want to pair there. He's likely going to be one of the first lynches (and he was) with how the game was looking, if he pairs with either of his team mates then he's basically throwing the game.

With all of that in mind, let's look at how discussion for dance partners played out:

Spoiler: DT/Gamma Interactions

who are paired up rn

or rather who is single and should i seduce

Let me set the scene. This is post 3153, page 127. Due to activity, DT hasn't had the chance to pair with anyone yet. The other unpaired players include: TheBrie, Gamma, Something_Smart, PvtUrist, Moment, and Allomancer. Three ladies. Four gentlemen.

DT

has to choose between S_S, Brie, and Gamma to take to the dance.

Gamma

why are you scum

Gamma comes into the thread and this is how DT engages with her, given DT had previously said he was looking for someone towny to pair up with, this makes it pretty easy to distance Gamma despite the small sample size of ladies he has to choose from.

Gamma

why are you scum

The fuck?

Reading through this exchange, try to place yourself in Gamma's shoes. Ask yourself if you would respond to DT in this way as town, specifically the way Gamma progresses her read on DT.

saying people are okay with pairing you with SS is basically saying they're okay with lynching you with dance 1 at this point, in case the subtext here isn't clear

...ouch?

I still haven't really seen much explanation of why I'm such a consensus scumread. I'm suspecting that it actually is just because I'm a replacement.

you are being too concerned about how you are being viewed by tohers

I rather think I've shown the appropriate amount of concern, given that I seem to be essentially an automatic lynch as soon as the dance starts...

Who is U2?

One of the best bands ever

don't be discouraged.

maybe uh you can show your townieness enough that i will town read you and be your partner

because at this point maybe nobody wants to pair up with you for being so scummy

In the midst of this interaction, DT opens the door to S_S to be a potential dance partner.

And you bring this up now why, DT?

And you bring this up now why, DT?

i brought it up before for sure you just ignored me i think

Also despite you having over 100 posts until now I haven't interacted with you at all. So you coming out with this feels like a massive crock of shit.

Like, I actually am calling you a flat out liar about you claiming to come on at the same time as me.

This is so... not genuine.

Like, I actually am calling you a flat out liar about you claiming to come on at the same time as me.

how the fuck am i a liar?

i never fucking lie as either alignment

like as scum i would definitely scum read you for things i would scum read as town to begin with so i dont understand what you mean by calling me a liar lol

Like, I actually am calling you a flat out liar about you claiming to come on at the same time as me.

how the fuck am i a liar?

i never fucking lie as either alignment

like as scum i would definitely scum read you for things i would scum read as town to begin with so i dont understand what you mean by calling me a liar lol

I understand people can think the same thoughts as both alignments.

But I cannot for a second believe you're being truthful about when you've been active.

On a side note, fuck I wanted to pair with Krazy. I was trying to figure out a read list so I could determine Krazy's alignment before forming the PT so I could shitpost there.

Gamma fabricates this scum read on DT out of the blue because she apparently believes DT has been lying about when he's been active. It's such an easy thing to fact check and such a ludicrous thing to scum read someone for that I can't believe this is town!Gamma, I have to believe that this is scum!Gamma fabricating an excuse to scum read DT and using emotion to make it look legit.

Townleaning Gamma and Pvt off of recent content.

what content does gamma have?

Like, I actually am calling you a flat out liar about you claiming to come on at the same time as me.

how the fuck am i a liar?

i never fucking lie as either alignment

like as scum i would definitely scum read you for things i would scum read as town to begin with so i dont understand what you mean by calling me a liar lol

I understand people can think the same thoughts as both alignments. But I cannot for a second believe you're being truthful about when you've been active.

On a side note, fuck I wanted to pair with Krazy. I was trying to figure out a read list so I could determine Krazy's alignment before forming the PT so I could shitpost there.

I mean. what don't you think am I being truthful about? I have been active but like realistically spent like 30 minutes for 3, 4 days out of how many days? i think 8? days we've been playing for? maybe i am thinking it's more than that by mistake because the week's been hectic but why are you calling me a liar for no reason? make me understnad

by some miracle you post whenever i am in the thread which is a rare occasion

Here is the lie. You say I post when you're in the thread, which SHOULD make the inverse true (you post when I'm in the thread). Despite this I remember 0 of your posting. So that does not compute.

by some miracle you post whenever i am in the thread which is a rare occasion

Here is the lie. You say I post when you're in the thread, which SHOULD make the inverse true (you post when I'm in the thread). Despite this I remember 0 of your posting. So that does not compute.

dude i am nto fucking lying. maybe you can iso me and see how many times i saw your post/commented about you which is a lot in terms of how many different times i entered the thread (only 3, 4 days tbh)

Here is the lie. You say I post when you're in the thread, which SHOULD make the inverse true (you post when I'm in the thread). Despite this I remember 0 of your posting. So that does not compute.

Not necessarily. Some people are really forgettable.

I agree but claiming something like that makes sirens blare for me.

Called out on the stupidness of it. "Sirens still blaring."

Gamma who should be your beau?

Well I'm not pairing with DT lol.

Dr. Worm would have been a good second imo but that's also taken. Out of the rest I need to look over Moment, Allo maybe, and Urist I guess I'd be okay with.

And with that, DT and Gamma have quickly and forcibly decreased the chances they'll ever pair with each other. Also, consider this: Gamma apparently had such a visceral reaction to DT here, scum reading him enough based off it that she would remove him from the pool of gentleman she'd pair with, but never once pushed DT any further on this or tried to convince others that DT was scum. This whole interaction specifically is why I thought Gamma pushing Brie first instead of DT at the beginning of the dance didn't make sense. I highly doubt Gamma would just forget about this with how emotional it apparently made her.

Spoiler: TheBrie

DoubtingThomas and Pvturist haven't asked me though, and Moment and Allo have. Still stuck between them. So if people want to be helpful, they can tell me why I should go with one of the other, or why I should hold out for another invitation.

Good night.

Important to note that Brie specifically says DT hasn't asked her yet in this post.

i kinda skimmed

poeple scum read me, why? maybe i can clarify. all ive seen really is 'i cant process where his reads are coming from' which is funny because as scum i am way more thorough and logical with my reads :/

i think i am at the point where i'd rather just out in pre dance if i dont get brie maybe

we'll see how SS and gamma posts

I already outlined this before as being scummy when I cased DT. This post comes only 15 posts after Brie's where she said DT hadn't asked her yet. DT makes this scummy-as-fuck "oh maybe I'll just go out pre-dance" claim, lamenting it as a consequence of him not being able to get Brie. He never fucking asked Brie. Why? Because he was never really trying to get her.

i want thebrie as my partner but it is likely moment becomes partners with thebrie i think

so i am thinking who out of SS and gamma is more townie?

honestly wouldnt mind uh not having a pair but like that'd be gamethrow or somethingsomething

i am thinking SS at the moment

Again he mentions how he wants Brie. He still hasn't asked her to dance with him. He's just accepting that Moment and Brie will become partners without truly fighting for it at all. At this point in the game, Brie was town read by most people. Why doesn't DT try harder to go after a potentially strong!town in Brie as opposed to SS who most people had stated around this point in the game might be a good first lynch? It doesn't make sense not to push harder for Brie, unless Brie is his partner, meaning taking a very low town for his partner becomes the optimal decision.

The second half of this post also read not genuine when you consider the exchange DT and Gamma already had previously.

something abotu her posts man

for me, it's that i didnt like your self-consciousness about how you are being viewed by others and gamma just having wolfy pop ins all the time

and then thinking it is unlikely all 3 left over ladies are wolves and brie looking to seemingly have consistent urge to try to solve people

I don't see where people are coming from on Brie being scum and if I'm being considered to be so towny then I should think that my own opinion should hold some weight.

Assume Brie is scum. Why wait to accept my offer and still be questioning Allo? It's clear that she knows that pairing with him is more likely to get her lynched whereas people townread me.

if she speed accepts her offer when people are calling her scum, what then?

The tides change, RC and a few other people start questioning Brie town. Keep this in mind.

this is so fucking frustrating because i'm not even 100% on brie being scum. i just think she's... not locktown. i don't want her treated as locktown. there's enough agreed locktowns that we can work around her

so right now I either play against my wincondition or be forced to make an incredibly divisive play that will only see justification part of the time

Brie, I'd appreciate if you didn't accept my offer for the time being, until this is cleared up.

I'm not even sure how I feel about TheBrie

I just think that whoever you get paired with, Moment, is going to end up being the conftown pair not nightkilled before endgame and I want to be super choosy about it

Here are my terms: accept them or don't, but I should hope that you at least consider them.

I ask SS, and you don't let your small doubt on Brie turn into a deathtunnel simply because you don't 100% townread her.

Something Smart, would you like to dance?

Time to go to bed.

i think i'm back to thinking brie is town

ugh now i think that SS could be scum

why is mafia like this

RC waffles.

i even acutely know ahead of time that this waffling is going to get wolfread but i can't do anything about it cuz like

fuuck

ss questioned basically every inclusion in the locktown pool (taly, nd, etc) then tried to get him(her?)self hitched with moment

I'll be nice and not wolf read you for that. In recent experience I've seen some of the worst misreads, and it's left be deeply paranoid of my own gut, and kinda appreciative of people who aren't dogmatically certain of everything. That said, I'm still going to be paranoid that you are actually a wolf. You and everyone. But seriously, I'll try to trust myself and people. it'll be better when we have something concrete to go off.

One thing that could be said on SS's behalf is that she hasn't accepted Moment yet, even though she had the opportunity.
Now I'm pretty sure I currently can't accept Moment.

Oh, and Moment, if you read this, did you ever answer my question about Allomancer?

As far as I'm aware you're still able to accept him if you choose to.

Well if I can...

Moment, I would be honoured to dance with you.


@Mod, is a gentleman ask one lady, then a second lady, can the first lady still accept? The offer wasn't withdrawn in this situation.

Moment's offer to SS occurred on Feb 12th, 10:39pm PST. Brie accepted it February 13th, 12:46am PST.

Two hours

after Moment extended his invitation to SS and specifically asked Brie to wait to accept his invitation, Brie accepted it anyway. Now, I know Brie has said it's because she wasn't sure she could get back on before the deadline. I hate to pick on activity issues, but I find this hard to believe. The deadline was about 30 hours away from when she accepted Moment's invitation. The fact of the matter was, Brie already had a standing invitation from Allo, so it wasn't as if she had to spend time a bunch of time to make sure she got a pairing. All she'd have to do is make sure to log on and say "I accept X invitation" in bold before the deadline. The fact that she blatantly disrespects Moment's wishes and accepts his invitation so readily only two hours after he issued an invitation to SS is just too much for me to ignore.

Because, if my solve is correct, her hasty actions make a lot more sense. If Moment and SS had paired, it would be disastrous for this hypothetical scum team. That would force DT to pair with either Gamma or Brie, and the other lady to pair with Allo or PvT, both easy mislynches. The hastiness of Brie's actions here make a lot more sense if this is the case.

The strangeness of all these interactions makes a lot more sense if DT/Gamma/Brie is S/S/S. The last few days of the pre-dance read like an awkward dance between the three to

not

be paired up with each other. I want other players to go back and read those pages themselves and see if they see the same things I do. I realize it's possible I'm conf biasing to the extreme here, but I do think there are some things I've outlined above that are just so unnatural for town players to say or do as well as for them to be S/T interactions.

I understand feeling like the game state is "too easy." But I think it's because town really has played well and Taly/Krazy/Nancy are all town.

Assume that this is true, that we really do have the dream town bloc. What is the scum team game plan? ICing and pocketing you seems obvious, throws suspicion on me, sets up Gamma to get into late game. Note DT's mention of how Gamma is "obv scum" but can be allowed to live because of you. I think scum came into this dance thinking they were pretty much fucked, and decided to make things as messy as possible by hard bussing.

I urge you to take a critical look at Gamma. She has gone from Taly as "lock town" to scum reading him with you because it's convenient, because this is what she needs to win the game. Like... LOOK at #5254.

All that being said. Pvt

, if you truly think I'm wrong (or scum as it may be), you NEED to try your best to convince people. If you really think Taly is scum, what you've done so far isn't going to cut it. You're the IC, people HAVE to listen to you. I don't understand why you say you can't case or just won't do it, because if you're confident than we really need to understand why and you need to be fucking persuasive.

I'm pretty set in the read that there are 0 scum in Taly/Krazy/Nancy at this point. If there are really two scum in the town bloc as you suggest, I don't know how we win this game. It's going to be hard to get the two town players within the town bloc to realize that if it's the case.

If it is the case, and you strongly believe that, you HAVE to be vocal and transparent as to why so we can discuss it. I don't want to shut you down or discredit you. Even if you fucking think I'm the most likely scum, explain why. Even if it purely has to do with the game state, keep explaining why, don't stop repeating yourself until everyone can engage with you and you can get feedback and people have an actually true chance to consider your thoughts. The discussion needs to happen so if you're this sure of your reads on Gamma and Brie, you gotta try harder than this for town. Please.

I will try to do a part 2 tomorrow for my town cases on Nancy/Taly/Krazy if I have time.

I rest my fucking case.

[Dannflor]

DT could have absolutely been protecting Gamma but I don’t recall anyone proposing Gamma be the first lynch

Remember how Gamma entered the day saying "wow it's weird how Pvt got ICed considering people were saying I was the first lynch huh"

hold on I'll get the quote in a sec

[Dannflor]

Interesting given I was stated to be first lynch. Is there anything beyond WiFoM that would explain that selection?

[Dannflor]

Unfortunately, I have reasons that I can’t elaborate on, both for my Dann townread and my Brie paranoia. I will meta him, to see if that changes but I have really strong reasons to townread Dann here. Like, I’m more confident on Taly but yes that and play, mechanically - Urist IC, Allo being wrong on every scumread so far, RC read and I really can’t see the sincerity and conviction in his posts, as easily fakable. Do you have some scumgames of his, that contradict that? I don’t want to be wrong here but so far, I don’t think I’m seeing Dann!scum here.

I would encourage you to meta me if you have the time. My only completed scum game is from 2012 unfortunately, but looking at some of my recent town games might help strengthen your read. I only say this because on the off chance the game doesn't end with Gamma/Brie gone, I want everyone to have the strongest possible reads they can get. I'll likely be doing the same for you once I get time.

[Dannflor]

Hi I see that I have 3 votes on me rn, could we not before I can present my case and stuff? I've found all the quotes I need so it'll probably be done in 18 hours tops.

Also let's give Pvt a chance to give some reads before we send him off? I don't really feel bothered by being voted but I feel like no one realizes the impact of removing the IC before they've had a chance to give reads

I have such a strong feeling that

Gamma is Grima Wormtongue whispering into the ear of our King IC PvTheoden

[Dannflor]

Lmao, it's a fair question I guess

It's not alignment indicative for me for *reasons*

Basically, my colored reads lists occur as town when I feel like the game is closed to solved or I can solve the game by doing one. I might hypothetically do one as scum just to replicate my town game.

900 posts into the game, I didn't have super strong reasons for a lot of my reads, and I wasn't at the point where I felt sitting down and doing a giant color coded reads list with reasons would help solve the game at all.

If I did one now, I probably would color code it and provide detailed reasons for my thinking because we're very close to solving the game. That's essentially already what I plan to do by town casing my town reads later today.

I realize it's awkward to meta me while not discussing *THE GAME* I know is on your mind, but I'll do my best to answer any other questions you have

[Dannflor]

Gamma, what happened to your case on Brie?

What is your solve currently?

[Dannflor]

Taly

You're pretty strong on Taly > Dancefloor at this point?

It's just so weird considering she distinctly had Taly as lock town and Dancy as weak town reads coming into the dance.

[Dannflor]

Thanks
Btw I wrote this out in my PT with Pvt expecting to have some work to do on it and not wanting to post too much in the main thread with my ramblings but I think this is a good base so my reads rn are

Locktown
Pvt
Taly

Townreads
Krazy
Vedith

Weaker townreads
Nancy
Dann

Shades of null
Pink Ball
Something_Smart
Firebringer

Suspicious person
Moment

My top scumreads
Dr. Worm
DoubtingThomas
TheBrie

FYI each set IS ordered by towniest at the top except weaker townreads, which is ordered by recency because recency affects my confidence there.

I mean I'm almost at null here

[Dannflor]

Gamma is Grima Wormtongue whispering into the ear of our King IC PvTheoden

And Taly is, of course, Gandalf.

Brie, are you Saruman?

VOTE: Brie

[Dannflor]

Nancy, RC himself second guessed his Brie read

[Dannflor]

I would be impressed with someone's scumplay if the game didn't end with a Moment-Brie flip.

On the flip side, I’ll be impressed with everyone’s townplay if the game does end

[Dannflor]

FUCK

[Dannflor]

I’m phoneposting so nothing big till I get home. But there was a period of time during the game where I was more than willing to be paired with Pink Ball, who was not a universal town read, over Nancy. Unless you believe my interactions with PB were faked. On the flip side, Krazy pushed specifically to pair with perhaps the most town read player in the game. That is where my gut tells me scum is.

However, I’m really not certain of anything right now, I don’t know if I even agree with Nancy IC yet. That might sound ridiculous but I want to have time to sort my thoughts on every slot before making any immediate decisions.

[Dannflor]

Bottom line here is that I'm pretty sure Nancy never flips scum here. If the answer to the three questions above are all "no" then we should do a hammer test because if Nancy is the scum I think we just lose. I feel like Nancy mostly did "normal Nancy" reactions to those phenomena.

I'm in the middle of writing a big wall post and the first half is dedicated to this.

I was hesitant because I had lingering doubts about Nancy and I didn't want to be too hasty in case I found something against her. Bottom line, I've gone back through everything quite a few times now and I highly doubt Nancy ever flips red. I'm okay with her being our "IC." I'm confident enough in this I'd be fine banking the game on it and doing a hammer test.

However, I'm at a cross roads in writing my post right now and you're latest posts are making me second guess myself. I assumed if you were scum you would turn the end game into a 1v1 with me, because that would be your best shot at winning and kinda seems like something you've been prepping for all game. But the fact that you haven't done so gives me pause. You're seriously considering Taly as the potential wolf and I'm not sure scum!you does that when Nancy basically just gave you a free out by saying her top town read is Taly.

Of course, since I was thinking you might be the wolf, your play this game (if scum) is certainly capable of doing this too. But, it's still enough to give me pause. And it actually makes me think of a post I really need to talk to Taly about before I go any further.

Krazy[//b], why should I stay in the dance?

I need to ask this question.

Taly, what answer were you expecting here?

In fact, why did you ask it at all? Krazy's response isn't particularly strong or unique, and there's no follow up to it. Why did you need to ask it?

[Dannflor]

Town Cases ~ Part 1: Why is Nancy

Town

?

I've been up and down Nancy's ISO. I've read and reread our PT together at least a few times now. There is not a universe where you could convince me Nancy is scum.

To begin with, there have been a couple times when Nancy has gotten emotional during conflicts with another player that demonstrate her alignment.

EXHIBIT A: FIREBRANGER

If you don't remember, Nancy had a conflict early in the game that resulted in her nearly replacing out. Largely, it was a conflict that sparked between her and Firebringer.

It started in post #294.

allomancer is scum this game btw

Why?

nancy don't make me suspect u this early

Why? Because I want to know why you think Allo is scum?

It continues and reaches a climax in posts #561 and #564. Phrases of interest bolded for clarity:

I don’t know if I even want to get picked anymore. I feel like I’m being scumreading without any basis and every single attempt I’ve made to ge clarity on this, seems to get viewed as some kind of scumclaim. I’m seriously contemplating replacing out at this point and they can toture my replacement instead. :/

I think you should stay and we should probably PT together like a pair of masons! \o/

It’s better for town, that I just bow out now anyway and if no one picks me

, then I won’t need to be replaced. I honestly don’t know what else to do at this point. I just know, I’m not having fun anymore

@mod please replace me.

This is like MBoS all over agian and I’m not fucking putting myself through that. Sorry.

First of all, to state that it might be better for town if no one picks them is an

incredibly dangerous

claim for scum to make, because there's the very real chance town will take them up on the offer—especially so at a time when the slot is so widely pressured/scum read. The fact of the matter is, it's not a desperate grab for town cred. If you consider that emotion to be faked, you also have to consider that the replacement wasn't genuine, and to replace out of a game for town cred is not something I believe Nancy would ever do.

EXHIBIT B: DOUBTINGTOXIC

Well if it's a mathematical certainty that scum is in there, it means that it didn't take any scumhunting skill to generate... I could put everyone in the scum tier and say "omg I scumread all the scum!" but it wouldn't mean anything.

Re: Thomas's wall, I don't know yet. I'm trying to get him to talk about that stuff a little more in the PT.

Having played with DT in a MU Lovers’ game, I can tell you that activity is NAI for him but town!him would express strong opinions in your PT. He did in ours - they were dead wrong but he definitely didn’t lack conviction.

did you want to be in my Lover PT that badly? why is this the only thing you talk about

Lolwut?

You were town in that game and it was blatantly obvious, soley based on what you posted in our DC.

Well if it's a mathematical certainty that scum is in there, it means that it didn't take any scumhunting skill to generate... I could put everyone in the scum tier and say "omg I scumread all the scum!" but it wouldn't mean anything.

Re: Thomas's wall, I don't know yet. I'm trying to get him to talk about that stuff a little more in the PT.

Having played with DT in a MU Lovers’ game, I can tell you that activity is NAI for him but town!him would express strong opinions in your PT. He did in ours - they were dead wrong but he definitely didn’t lack conviction.

did you want to be in my Lover PT that badly? why is this the only thing you talk about

Lolwut?

You were town in that game and it was blatantly obvious, soley based on what you posted in our DC.

wtf? why are you lying you literally cussed me out in discord lover PT for thinking you could be scum

you said "you are just scum at this point for not obv town reading me" then you got banned for angleshooting (lol)

don't pretend you correctly town read me. you literally subbed out cuz u thought i was a scum for not reading you town

which was kinda insane

I obtown read you and yes, thanks for reminding me of something I’d really rather forget. I was trying to do whatever I could think of to get you to see that I was town, so we wouldn’t lose the game with our mislynch.
I knew I had majorly fucked up by wrongly pushing El pair mislynch and you promised to lynch us if they flipped town, so yes I really was that desperate for you not to lose us the game because you totally sucked at reading me. Happy now.?

Yeah, and I paid the price for it, as you’ve already said.

Gamma, interesting. What connection do you see between Moment and I and DT then?

Also it's time to get this moving along.
VOTE: Doubting Thomas

L-1

DT was consistently pushing both me and TB but voted me for most of that period and was up my ass. That tells me the TB push was likely distancing.
Also VOTE: TheBrie again

I’m just really glad he’s out of the game.

He was being toxic and him throwing that game in my face like that, was really mean.

Spoiler:

My argument was that you should have had reads three days ago and that town is on the clock. I think I made exactly one post about it. Stop acting like I was talking up a storm about your post activity, that was simply me refuting the notion that there wasn't enough to work with irt your slot to get a read.

i town read SS and not scum read SS. that is not hard to understand. I think there are definite scum in Gamma or Brie. Maybe in PB, Nancy, etc if I look more into it.

As far as I know this is your reads right now. We have 5 days to solve the game. Who gets lynched today DT? Why are you continuing to bitch about me not spoonfeeding you interactions when you are presenting 0 indications of a solving mindset? Do you want Brie lynched today? Do you want Gamma to go first? Why in that order?

I have read your games and you are not this directionless as town. I feel like you just want to throw dirt at whoever is online and posting rather than working toward a gamesolve.

I thought I made my reads on other players to a certain degree so I am confused as to why you are trying to shade me this hard.

I think Gamma is obv scum but didn't realize she is partners with IC. Thinking maybe we can let them live technically just because we know for sure her partner is town and you made a fair point about gamma 'spewing'

I think Worm/PB are pretty null.

I think Brie's "reads" have been very subpar. I explained this before but you haven't read my posts properly so I will say it again

These are all of her "reads" that she made today:

Leaning towards scum on Moment, but he's not giving me anything to read. Conflicted on Pink Ball.

I went and did meta on Gamma. Her game is quite similar as town and scum, as town she's got more questions that force others to get involved and are really challenging, as a little less "Explain this" and sort of mechanical stuff, or comments on how people are playing. But it's close, and I can't tell which side this falls on. Maybe a tiny bit towards the scum side, but not enough to say anything solid. It's not outside her town range.

There's a few things that give me a scummy feel, but overall... I've not gotten her sorted out. i just know I'm not putting her solidly in as town.

In summary, she basically just says, "I lean scum. but he doesn't have any content to base my read on him. Idk Pink ball. I did meta on Gamma. I can't tell if she's town or scum. maybe a little scum. Don't have anything solid.

This is definition of hedging and she is refusing to take a stance. I think that is an overtly scum trait.

I also don't buy her explanation of insta accepting moment's invitation, as S_S pointed out

Mostly because I was afraid life would hardly let me on before the deadline. i had a couple days of full on work (waking up at three am), and I didn't know then how tired I would be the rest of the time. Bad reason.
Also, I wasn't really townreading SS then, and didn't really want her with Moment.

i don't really see scum!Moment asking scum!SS when he had a reasonable chance of town!me accepting. So currently townreading SS. Not townreading Moment, but I want to see him post again before making a final judgement.

I think this is >rand scum thing to do.

I also think Nancy constantly talking about my lover PT is >rand scum. I cannot understand why she thinks that would be NAI and scum read me for it. sounds scummy.

I think Worm's tone is townie, but I am confused as to why he completely ignored you and my interaction to talk about me at all in the last 10 pages that I read

I think Gamma has done very little solving and noone really town reads her. I think the way she got mad and attacked me out of nowehre is extremely scummy because she was blatantly lying about my progression on her. I think she can go, but I can accept why people wouldn't want to lynch her because she is lovers with an IC.

In that sense, I think Brie also has very high scum equity especially with her performance today. I haven't read Moment at all. hopefully he comes back soon. maybe ill iso him eventually.

I think nancy has good scum equity as well for oddly attacking me for not talking in lovers PT when i simply havent been on. I also think it was weird for her to give a reason for twon reading dann by using a post itt despite having lovers PT she so loves to talk about with him. i think dann is kinda townie for his posts tho and i initially town read nancy, so i personally prefer brie's lynch who i scum read harder and have no opinion on the lover for

i made all of this pretty clear in my recent posts so don't give me the "i dont see any reads from you" shit. read my shit.

i think you are just conf biasing and not reading my posts to tunnel me. i think you cussing me out is unnecessary and just provoking me really hard. believe me i can get real toxic real fast.

i don't want to go down that path so if you unnecessarily cuss me out again i will just ignore your presence and play the game around so i can at least leave a good legacy if you are just gonna deathtunnel me. i do think you are somewhat townie (despite S_S believing otherwise) and I think Taly is very townie so I don't want to get involved in a useless mess with you.

good luck with the rest of the game if you have anything intelligent to say that you want to approach me in a mature way to talk about, i'd be glad to talk. otherwise, i think you are just stuck in a tunnel and will play the game around you

So, in this post DT does say both Brie and Gamma are scum. The difference is he actually cases Brie here and I bolded a part towards the top where he says Gamma can actually be left alive. So I'd actually say he was pushing Brie more than you, Gamma.

Also good to note, right below the bolded portion, he has PB/Dr Worm as null. That, imo combined with his interactions with PB later make more sense as soft distancing.

I have experience with scum!DT and he is really clever. He fooled me in MU Suk game, so it’s extremely likey that he was deliberately trying to get himself lynched to save at least one of his buddies.

I think his shitting on me for pushing him posting in his PT, was just WIFOM to make everyone think he was afraid of it but I think it’s well within his scumrange to have fooled SS, if he had really wanted to. He was open wolfing here and he obviously knew it.

Nancy and DT have lowkey clashed all game, but this was the peak of it, occurring from posts #4825 to #5060. If you believe Nancy is scum, then you must also believe all the Nancy/DT interactions this game are scum theatre. Again, I read Nancy as completely genuine here. I think if Nancy and DT really had been scum buddies here, Nancy would have replaced out a long long time ago. I don't think that's a stretch to assert.

There are other things that point towards Nancy being town too. Namely, the choice of IC. Selecting PvtUrist as the IC directs more suspicion towards me. If we are entertaining the fact that Nancy could be the deepwolf, her game plan requires that she survive till endgame. ICing Pvt puts the odds against her by splashing suspicion on me. If I'm the most suspicious person going into endgame, it's not likely Nancy will win it. Scum in this setup, particularly a deep wolf in this situation, has to play to survive until endgame. This means they have to avoid the deaths of both themselves and their partner.

Another point in Nancy's favor is that she initially pushed to have Krazy as her lover. This is a good because Krazy at no point was "universally town read," with RC being a far better candidate. I think if Nancy was scum, she would have pushed harder to be in a pair with RC.

In the end, if Nancy is scum here, she deserves to win a fucking Oscar.

[Dannflor]

just went ahead and cut and pasted the part of my post dealing with Nancy since it seems relevant ^^^

[Dannflor]

I will also supply my meta games for Taly.

[

Mini Normal 2050: Serial Killers

]

-

Dec. 15, 2018.

My first game on the site after a ~5 year hiatus. Was the primary driver behind a scum lynch D1, had the scum team solved before the day ended. Was killed N1, but town still perfect gamed.

[

Mini Normal 2046: Autumn's Farewell

]

-

Replaced in Dec. 28, 2018.

Obv towned in a lynch bait slot, prevented a mislynch on mbaki, had one scum in my PoE. Was NKed after my second day in the game. Town still won. (never did a colored reads list in this game, since Krazy was insinuating that might be a tell for me earlier)

[

Mini Normal 2054: Winter's Sacrifice

]

-

Jan. 17, 2019.

Helped lead a wagon on scum D1. Correctly guessed another scum D2 via associations and lead a wagon on them. Correctly guessed the final scum for my investigation target N2. Town perfect gamed.

I'm not usually a braggart, I just think it's important to know that my town game is generally strong.

[

Mini 1402: Low Budget Mafia

]

-

Dec. 12, 2012.

My only completed "real" scum game on site. Was a Mafia Traitor who didn't know who his team was. I was lynched D3, but my scum team end gamed anyway.

[

Half Mast Nightless - Marathon

]

-

Feb. 14, 2019.

It's a marathon game, so take that with a grain of salt. However, there are 60+ pages worth of content. I survived till end game and won.

As you can see, using meta to case me is rather problematic. Neither of my scum games are truly representative of what my scum game could be here because one is from 7 years ago and one is a marathon game. I provided them anyway, but they can't really be used as evidence that I'm town. Unfortunately, Krazy's meta with me that causes his paranoia would break site-wide rules to talk about. Suffice to say my scum game is much different from either 7 years ago or from when I play marathons. I don't tend to think meta is a very reliable tool, but use these how you will.

[Dannflor]

I'm okay to do this hammer test. I'm already basically thinking and sorting as if Nancy is town now, but if it helps whichever one of you (Taly/Krazy) that's town sort, than let's do it.

VOTE: Krazy

We can do it or wait for Taly/Nancy to weigh in idc

[Dannflor]

And that's probably all from me tonight. I don't wanna clog up the thread anymore than I just did.

good night folks

[Dannflor]

I'm on board with it Nancy. I've submitted my case for why you're town.

I think it could help. Yes, obviously it could be used as some sort of trap like "oh Dann only wanted to IC Nancy because she really town read Dann" but I don't think that's a good case and I think scum!Krazy would know that. I think the way he's behaving here is actually pro-town, despite my paranoia. And because of that, I do have to seriously consider between Taly and Krazy, and it'll help to know that you're without-a-shadow-of-a-doubt town for my mental state.

pedit: moment of truth

[Dannflor]

well played nancy

[Dannflor]

that was the outcome I least expected

[Dannflor]

there was one moment, after the moment/brie flip I seriously considered leaving the dance

I talked myself out of it

[Dannflor]

fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck

I thought a couple times "wow it's kinda weird Nancy hasn't been paranoid about me at all since we paired"

but that was the extent of any pingage

well played

fuck

I shoulda played better

[Dannflor]

I literally thought Krazy was setting me up for an endgame 1v1 all game

[Dannflor]

let the record show that my 3 picks for scum following pvturists townflip were 3/3 of the scumteam.

I'm impressed

damn I wish I'd focused on sorting Nancy more especially in our PT

I basically assumed she was town all game long without thinking critically about it until the end

Maybe it wouldn't have mattered but I feel like I kinda failed by not trying/focusing on that more :/

[Dannflor]

dann.
I was rooting for u so hard.

I was the only one in the dead thread that believed.

Sorry for letting y'all down

I was too focused on Krazy being the deepwolf I just - blahhh

I'm gonna be paranoid forever now

[Dannflor]

Thanks for believing in me FB, even tho I let you down

I've got a lot to learn from this game

[Dannflor]

I at one point even said "I really hope dann is really considering why Nancy isn't being paranoid of him" and you took that in but didn't consider it enough apparently.

Yea. I noticed, particularly with how many times she repeated "really mind melding with Dann here" but I... idk I couldn't focus on it

oof

gg

[Dannflor]

And the IC choice was not to protect me but to protect Nancy as she was deep wolf but Dann was suspected by Pvt and she was deeply concerned about that.

Yea. I should have realized that would be one of the reasons. Nancy being so ready to say "scum!Dann never ICs Pvt!" should have pinged me more than it did

ahhhh everything is always so obvious in retrospect, need to get better at this game

[Dannflor]

time to read the dead PT and weep

[Dannflor]

Blah, it doesn't feel great, but I'm not bent out of shape about it. I think I should have had the ability to recognize scum!Nancy replacement request or no replacement request and I just didn't play well enough.

[Dannflor]

blah I feel like such a fool

dead thread and PTs are interesting to read though

it was a fun playerlist overall

Thanks for the game everyone and

thank you FG

for modding this interesting setup

[Dannflor]

I'm gonna go hit myself with a shovel for a while and think about what I've done

goodnight all

[Dannflor]

@Nancy, I'm mostly just mad at myself because I think I could have played a lot better in a lot of ways. After the Brie/Moment flip, the instant I realized there was a deep wolf is when I was most conflicted about you. I briefly considered how your read on me seemed a little unnatural, I'd also thought your hesitation on Brie/Moment seemed a little weird given the gamestate. However, I didn't reflect on the things that bothered me enough when I should have. There was also a lot of other things I did wrong, but whatever. I can take this as a learning experience. wp

DANNIEL MURIEL FLORENT, YOU SHOULD HAVE PAIRED WITH YOUR TRUE LOVE. LOSING THE GAME IS KARMA HITTING YOU IN THE FACE, WITH A CAR, AT FULL SPEED, DRIVEN BY AN ELEPHANT WHO SITS IN YOUR FACE AFTER HITTING YOU WITH HIS CAR, AND IT'S A HUGE CAR 'CAUSE IT HAS TO BE FOR THE ELEPHANT TO DRIVE IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. But I digress. YOU UNFAITHFUL BASTARD

I KNOW I FUCKING KNOW

I BLEW IT

I BLEW THE GAME I BLEW MY CHANCE AT TRUE LOVE

PB I never stopped loving you I hope you know that

my heart is forever broken

[Dannflor]

DANNIEL MURIEL FLORENT

also kinda hot when you call me by my full name js

[Dannflor]

WHAT THE FUCK DANN

I DONT KNOW WHY ELSE TO SAY WTF OTHER THAN WHY VOTE TEST ON THE FIRST NIGHT?

ik this is my biggest regret

and really stupid I think

if I had given time for taly and krazy to prove their towniness, which I think you guys could've. I might've been able to re-examine my nancy concerns enough

i got trigger happy

[Dannflor]

Moral of the story

Shoulda listened to Ank

[Dannflor]

dann was really fun playing with u.

You too!

tbh players like you and Vedith and Dr Worm made the stress of the mountainous a lot more enjoyable to get through

I don't necessarily think anyone's "yololeaving" was a bad choice at the time

[Dannflor]

I've been playing Mafia since 2015 and this game taught me some stuff. Wow.

+100

enjoyable playlist y'all, I'd play with you all again

[Dannflor]

Dann, you played really well, so you don’t need to beat yourself up.

Haha, thanks. Probably still won’t stop me until I have a chance to redeem myself though

You also played well, good game

[Dannflor]

It was stupid of me to base my town case off of an attempted replace-out. I don't really blame Nancy, it was my fault for thinking it was AI

[Dannflor]

At least I'll hopefully have a more critical eye for AtE in general going forward

[Dannflor]

lmao someone delete that post already

[Dannflor]

You're a class act, FG. Thanks so much for modding this game, hope to play in another one of yours eventually.