In post 253, RadiantCowbells wrote: In post 247, Yumeko Jabami wrote:Dann certainly is interesting, I'm all fired up over here. Can you tell? In any case, there's this one other player, they're just so very boring. Honestly, it's a drag. Good chance they're scum too. Hey, we should team up, let's get all the boring out of here. What do you say?
VOTE: Radiantcowbells
how do you want this game to go?
In post 259, RadiantCowbells wrote:@Vedith i do not read you as scum but if you're going to hard defend a wolf i will probably want you lynched sometime before endgame. nothing personnel, kid, but this is ick.
@Yumeko I do read you as scum. I think that your tone is awful and I see your vote as very likely to have been an outright chainsaw. if that is not the case i strongly advise that you reconsider your current line of play because right now i'm planning to go after you tomorrow. on top of all this if the calling me boring and appealing to mary specifically to vote me wasn't explicitly intended to piss me off then you should be aware that that's going to piss me off
Stuff like this is what I'm talking about. Such thinly veiled threats, using brute force as a means to get scumread off of you, or maybe even turn it around on me. I guess everyone has their own style, who am I to judge, but if you're involving me in this you must know that I don't intend to let up in the face of your boorish tactics.
If my own gameplay leaves a bit of a sour taste in your mouth, I can only assure you that I don't care to attack your feelings, but rather your gameplay. Which is pretty bad, in my eyes. The way you postured around in the early game set my eyes on you, the way you continue to posture around only furthers my suspicions - what I mean to say is, it looks more like you care more about taking a strong stance and rallying support behind you than solving the game. Something about the way you ask questions makes me think that your goal is to trip someone up and give yourself more ammunition to go after them with, and then if the lynch goes through you can point out that everybody else was wrong too.
I suspect your case on Lich would not have been so strong had I not pointed a (measly) finger of suspicion towards yourself, and that there was a measure of self defense in such an action.
In post 258, RadiantCowbells wrote:
In post 38, TemporalLich wrote:I definitely feel DrDolittle is trying to hide something. At least the random voters are honest and true.
In post 76, TemporalLich wrote: In post 70, ssbm_Kyouko wrote:I'll concede it was basically page 1 (post 26, and the mod took the pagetop) but first you said you wanted to vote someone who hadn't been voted yet, then you said random, so which is it?
Let's get this wagon rolling folks
Since he said random, then that he wanted to vote someone who hadn't been voted yet, then random again... his vote is baseless and Lovebird is town. That's a complete 360 right there.
You know what this means...
VOTE: Emperor flippyNips
I'm not sure about that...
In post 83, TemporalLich wrote:If Lovebird turns out to be scumbird then I will be very surprised.
Especially now since there are scumreads floating around and the vote isn't even pretending to be a scumread.
I'm going to define a new term here because I don't think it's something that's in the popular lexicon and I think it's really important to reading newbies in particular.
There's a lie detecting tell with people in real life where when they're lying they give extraneous details, overexplain things, etc.
The mafia equivalent which we see in these posts is all this excessive fluff added on to these votes.
I'm gonna call it "scum overwording" and it's one of the most tried and true scumtells when it comes to reading newbies.
Notably I have played with more newbies than anyone else in this game and probably in site history, so that should come up with a lot of force behind it.
Another major thing is the lack of newbie unconfidence with the reads. There's no explanations behind things. He just kinda comes up with reads. SSBM town, no explanation. Lovebird town was complete what the fuck and though that kind of overreading into associatives is reasonably common from newbies the original read that lovebird came from was totally out of nowhere.
In post 122, TemporalLich wrote: In post 120, Dannflor wrote:What do you two think about Lovebird's entrance and subsequent wagon hop? Scummy or just lazy town?
Definitely just lazy town, though I don't see scumreads as implausible.
this too is inconsistent in and of itself: 'definitely town' but the scumreads aren't implausible. wolfy out the ass.
this is just a pretty typical scum readslist sooo
yeah
no they're just scum. we can lynch them at any point. i wouldn't mind stalling out the day phase but they're gonna be in antispew indefinitely and if it means that we're even slightly likely to end up not lynching temporallich it's better to just take the scum flip and move on to tomorrow.
Starting from the bottom: There are other people in this game with similar reads, no? Those players' alignment has come up before quite a bit. Second from the bottom appears to be a semantics issue - you know what he meant. He's saying Lovebird is lazy town, but he can see why other people would be reading Lovebird as scum, and doesn't scumread those players. There's nothing inherently wrong with that statement, they just worded it in a funny way, though when you think about it there's really only 1 interpretation that makes sense if you look at it. This is what I was talking about earlier - you're hobbling points together to build a case. Now THAT isn't necessarily scum motivated either, pressure and all that, though I feel at this point enough pressure has been applied and the time to back off has since passed.
About the newbie unconfidence thing: Lich doesn't really make sense in general. I can't follow their thought process. But does that mean he's scum?
In post 1, Slaxx wrote:-Mafia will be able to communicate with each other during day phases.
If Lich were scum, I'd suspect his buddies would be trying to help him out here, I certainly would be - not in the main thread, mine you, but behind the scenes. Even if the mafia were to bus him publicly, they'd be offering alternatives, ways to make sense, offering up things to say. It's called coaching - and Lich shows no signs of it. Indeed, if he were mafia his nonsensical behavior would be reigned in by his buddies, and his posting quality would improve - he'd at least have explanations for his reads. I can't speak for your newbie game experience but this isn't a 2v7 game with a newbie mafia partner, the circumstances are quite substantially changed from what you're used to if you play in a lot of newbie games. There are other interactions at play between players here. This is a bad argument - it only looks at two instances in a vacuum, the complex moving parts behind it all is completely different. That's my theory and my counterargument.
You asked me earlier how I wanted this game to go! I'd like to form good reads with my analysis and offer counter points to things other people so easily accept without really
thinking
about it. I certainly don't intend to follow along with whatever you're trying to do here, partly as a matter of pride and partly because I think you're a good pick for scum right now. So that's my answer, and if I want to rally Mary's support, that's between me and her, and I will continue to try to work with her when possible without nagging at every single thing she does like you've been doing.
In post 255, Mary Saotome wrote:It's interesting that a lot of the people I'm willing to vote are scumreading each other. Gamma, Hop, DrDolittle and ??? Who I won't name as I want to see how they're acting still.
Ooo, fun! Why don't we make a game out of this and guess who you're referring to here?
I'd bet the ??? is ssbm_Kyouko myself.
In post 257, Dannflor wrote: In post 247, Yumeko Jabami wrote:Furthermore, would you say DDN's playstyle holds a special exemption to what you said here, or do you think this isn't an applicable situation?
DDL and I have played one game together I believe. We were both town and I pushed him initially until I did a meta dive on him.
I would like to pressure this slot eventually and get a solid read but I don't think voting it right now is going to do anything so I'm waiting for him to actually start playing the game.
@RC, I know you think TL is still the best lynch, but opinion on Gamma/Hopkirk?
So I'm not wrong to think this a special exemption, right?
Noting here that RC didn't care to acknowledge this, for what it's worth. I'd argue that he doesn't want discussion to start elsewhere, that's the kind of feel I'm getting on him as a player. Of course, he could have just missed it, or even thought you post unworthy. Don't worry Dann, I think your post is alright, even if nobody else does. My questioning on you/DDN seems to have reached a dead end, I'm not suspecting it anymore - I agree that pushing DDN doesn't appear to be fruitful at this point (I moved off of him).
In post 278, DrDolittle wrote: In post 247, Yumeko Jabami wrote:
DoDonothing, you say in post 48 that this is the first time you don't place a vote in the early game. Setting aside the why for now, what do you think of Dannflor saying you get scum read for not doing much early game regardless of alignment? The statements aren't quite contradictions to each other, but I thought it was close enough to one that it was curious. What kind of experience do the two of you share, anyway? It seems you've played together, would you guys say you're friends? Friendly acquaintances? Or are you just nobodies to each other? DrDonothing in particular seemed to indicate familiarity in post 48, while Dannflor seemed more distant when talking about DDN in post 159. Ah, so cold Dannflor! It's not nice to treat your friends that way you know?
Cause in the game Dann and I played I literally expressed exasperation over "get scum read for not doing much early game regardless of alignment". Dann are we friends? I would say so.
Don't you think it's a bit early to be calling people town? Or does ssbm just wear their heart on their sleave?
I'm working on the presumption that you didn't dig into my post too deeply, but instead scanned it. Which is ok - well not really, I work hard on those - it doesn't really say much about your alignment. The point I'm trying to make is that putting in effort doesn't make somebody town - you seem like a fish out of water, latching onto other people's scumread. This is one of your first times playing mafia, right? I get the feeling you're nervous, not because you're mafia, but because you're a new player trying to fit. That's not to say that you
can't
be mafia - I'm trying to figure out your flighty attitude. Full disclosure, I read a bit ahead in the thread before posting this stuff, so I'm partially judging you based on stuff past this post as well.
Your post surprised me, because it seemed like you somehow missed the first post and only saw the second. That or you're just a little too naive.
This is pretty scummy. Not sure if its coaching or advice giving, but it's a big long winded paragraph with much ado about nothing. looks like content, and is really not.
Dann certainly is interesting, I'm all fired up over here. Can you tell? In any case, there's this one other player, they're just so very boring. Honestly, it's a drag. Good chance they're scum too. Hey, we should team up, let's get all the boring out of here. What do you say?
VOTE: Radiantcowbells
Jabroni are you for real? You rewrite Goethe's Faust in this post, and then essentially put a naked vote on RC?
VOTE: Yumeko
Now you. As Mary said, it's hard to read tone, your first response here comes across to me as defensive, as if you felt somehow threatened by me. It's alright, I won't bite, I just want to have a discussion. I'm not sure what your deal with the next two points are, but I think you'll quickly realize you're being silly and that none of the things you point out are really points to me being scum. If you'd like, I have a completed game on this site, and I rolled town in it. You might find it enlightening to take a quick skim to see how I played in a completed game. Big long winded paragraphs aren't anything out of the ordinary, and as I pointed out earlier when I was talking to RC, if I were scum with Lich, I'd be giving advice in the scum chat, not in the game thread (if that's the implication here). As for advice giving? I'm trying to draw them into the game, make them follow my pace a little, so that I can get a better read on them. You seem to be mistaken in that you think me being gentle and approaching the issue by trying to talk to them reasonably (to no avail, it seems - I think the task of reading my posts and engaging with me seems daunting to them) means that I have some form of agenda, but you fail to see the bigger picture.
Speaking of the bigger picture, It seems like you have the impression, or are under the assumption, that mafia would be trying to talk to each other in the main thread - not for the sake of interacting, but to try to help each other out without letting townies in on it. What I'm saying is, it doesn't seem like you realize that mafia can talk to each other in the rules. Indeed, with the way the rule was worded, my usual method of searching using the ctrl + f keyboard command failed to find the rule, and I only happened to spot it by chance. I'm inclined to say you're more likely to be town because of this, but seeing your join date makes me hesitate - shouldn't you be used to games where mafia can talk to each other during the day? Why the implication that I'd be scum coaching my partner in the main thread rather than behind closed doors? Can you help me understand your thought process here?
In post 262, Dannflor wrote:I'm reconvinced.
Stalling out the day, for at least a little longer, is good though. xwing won't be here until Monday, and DDL and Yumeko need to engage
For reference, do you mean we need to engage with each other, or with the thread in the general? If you've got something you want to talk about, I'd be happy to talk about it, otherwise I don't know what you mean - did you instead mean I need to post more? I do believe I engaged in my last post.
In post 265, TemporalLich wrote:
In post 258, RadiantCowbells wrote:Another major thing is the lack of newbie unconfidence with the reads. There's no explanations behind things. He just kinda comes up with reads. SSBM town, no explanation. Lovebird town was complete what the fuck and though that kind of overreading into associatives is reasonably common from newbies the original read that lovebird came from was totally out of nowhere.
There is nothing that suggests SSBM could be scum. Fight me.
In post 258, RadiantCowbells wrote:this too is inconsistent in and of itself: 'definitely town' but the scumreads aren't implausible. wolfy out the ass.
As in I don't think reading Lovebird as scum would be completely unjustifiable, but as of now lovebird is town and something would have to happen for lovebird to not be town.
The bottom part is how I interpreted what Lich said, RC seems to have no reaction to this and instead just uses the post to try to dig Lich in a deeper hole.
With that said, Lich, when you said ssbm was town they only had 3 posts. Even if you believe there is nothing to indicate ssbm is scum, that is hardly a reason to suggest that they're town. This might be a difference in viewpoints, though I'll let you know right now that there is a right answer to this question - most people in this game are town. The onus is on them to show it, and on us to realize it. I don't think either of these conditions could have been fulfilled so early. Don't misunderstand me, early reads are fine and all, but to hold onto it for so long, almost defiantly, almost as if you care more about having a viewpoint than about figuring the game out...
I'd really like if he could have a chat, just you and me - tune out the likes of RC and focus on answering my questions? I'd like to think it would be in your interest for you to humor me if you're town so I can read you better. Right now it looks like you're set up to be the lynch by default - if you think RC is scum, then arguing with RC isn't a good idea - you should argue with other people about why he's wrong, and how he has an agenda.
The ball
is
in your court, right now the suspicion lies on you!
In post 274, TemporalLich wrote:There's nothing scummy in his ISO. Of course, nothing scummy is merely neutral at worst.
To add some weight to the town_Kyouko theory, he seems to be of the confident demeanor so he won't back down if the pressure were to ever fall on him.
Actually, you seem to be describing a personality trait here - I don't see how that means Kyouko is less likely to be scum. Do you think scum are intrinsically likely to cower under pressure or something?
In post 267, xwing wrote:he then backtracks to lovebird being "potentially town" to try to insert uncertainty..
You misinterpreted what he said. Read above - he even explained it.
In post 267, xwing wrote:by that same vein i think RC is town for casing TL and pushing for his lynch..i dont think there's scummy agenda here..
I think if you use your imagination you can come up with something, a theoretical scum agenda here. One player casing and pushing another player - that's not something I'd point to and say that I don't think there would be an agenda.
With that said, I'm getting an early feeling that you're town - albeit a bit clueless, which is okay.
In post 271, Dannflor wrote:Yea, I'm not sure I like the instinct to get confrontational vs. ... actually explaining his reads.
It's a psychological thing. Getting confrontational means you feel cornered, and despite the way that sounds it does not mean he's scum. Poor guy is getting ganged up on here in presumably his first game on site by players who have been playing for a lot longer than him, who brag about it - use it as a weapon.
In post 272, xwing wrote:@lovebird: are you insinuating you are informed, and backing up the miller claim?
@mary: i think this slot is someone we wouldn't want to mess around with in RL
since you obviously wanted to discuss this, why did you claim VT?
also, i think you're town, and i like how you're teaching others to not be too transparent, but im not liking the tone, but mostly play style differences i guess..
Lovebird thing is interesting if true - what would you think of our alignments if they claimed that?
I don't get the dismissal of your own points by saying playstyle differences - if you don't like the tone just say so, maybe even ask about it. Further, I think Mary's tone is fine, though that's not something I'd be able to explain.
In post 283, Gamma Emerald wrote:Yikes. Angles towards DDL+Dann team but votes RC while reaching out to Dann. Uhhhhh no.
VOTE: Yumeko
Can you further explain why you are voting me by quoting the bit where I was reaching out to Dann and why that's a bad thing in your eyes. It seems that you're a bit too quick to jump to the conclusion that I had ulterior motives just because I was pushing Dann and DDn a little - I'm trying to sort them, I didn't call for votes on them or the like.
