2018 NFL Football

[PJ.]

Negative. Darnold sucks. Josh Allen also sucks. Mayfield is good but everything about Cleveland sucks so he'll sick too.

Rosen is a golden god and landed in a good spot assuming the coach doesn't totally suck.

[PJ.]

@scot, I think you're missing the point.

[PJ.]

No, it's a mostly a bad thing. They had 3 QBs that they liked reportedly, and the decision was very close. If that was really the case, Barkley should have been 1. Because even if that audibles the Giants into a QB(which it probably wouldn't have, they probably would have taken the Guard), you still get one of your 3 guys. Best thing is that you didn't add Allen to the very long jersey despite your team liking him a lot.

[PJ.]

He's short, if that's what you mean by rub. But he also was prolific in college and played well against elite opposition(even if you say his conference shit he hung a shit ton of points on Georgia). I feel if he fails it's on Cleveland, not him.

I think they made the right call given the guys they liked (they liked the wrong guys), but it's simply an issue of perceived value. Barkley is widely panned as a generational talent, and the Browns reportedly thought it was fairly even between their 3 guys, so if you take the 1 of 1, you still are gonna get 1 of your 3 QB prospects no matter what and would likely get a choice of 2 of the 3, given the Giants don't seem interested in a QB this year.

[PJ.]

On top of that they slightly reached for a corner in a pretty loaded db class.

[PJ.]

Winston, Newton, Bradford, Palmer...all heisman trophy winners picked #1. None have yet to win a Super Bowl.

1 of those guys was really good though. And 1 of them is currently really good. The other the jury is still out on. And Bradford is an above average starter when he isn't hurt.

And in 17 years only 10 QBs have won a super bowl. In 13 in 20. 7 of those 13 are either in the Hall of Fame or guaranteed to be in the Hall of Fame. It's a very weird thing to measure success solely by whether or not you won a super bowl or not.

[PJ.]

Winston, Newton, Bradford, Palmer...all heisman trophy winners picked #1. None have yet to win a Super Bowl.

1 of those guys was really good though. And 1 of them is currently really good. The other the jury is still out on. And Bradford is an above average starter when he isn't hurt.

And in 17 years only 10 QBs have won a super bowl. In 13 in 20. 7 of those 13 are either in the Hall of Fame or guaranteed to be in the Hall of Fame. It's a very weird thing to measure success solely by whether or not you won a super bowl or not.

I'm pretty sure Cleveland wants to win a Super Bowl. Maybe I'm wrong.

That's obviously every organizations goal, but your thesis statement is "don't draft a Quarterback who won the heisman #1 overall, because they never win the super bowl", and my counterargument is only a very small number of quarterbacks win super bowls and it is not indicative of skill at the position due to the nature of the accomplishment (i.e it's a team game). There are several Hall of Fame passers without championships( for example, Jim Kelly and Fran Tarkenton). And as I stated previously, only 7 of 13 QBs in the last 20 years are current or surefire future hall of famers and the other 6 got carried by an elite defense, and if we're being honest Peyton Manning should really count as a half point for each side considering how bad he was when he won the broncos super bowl, so the score is a flat tie 6.5 to 6.5. The only person who can swing this score is Russell Wilson. It's a team accomplishment, not an individual accomplishment
What you're saying is basically akin to saying "You should only draft Quarterbacks with the 199th pick because they win the most super bowls". It's silly. If you draft good players , regardless of when you draft them, you have a better chance of winning and for sure at least 50% of the players you mentioned are good football players and have nearly won a super bowl. Baker Mayfield seems to be a good football player.

This whole "Mayfield is short" thing is dumb. Last year, Russell Wilson, who I remind you, was considered too short to play QB, put up ridiculously good stats.

And Drew Brees is a future Hall of Famer. They are the exception not the rule.

No, it's a mostly a bad thing

by rub I meant y the Browns shouldn't have drafted Mayfield. I liked the pick. The CB pick might have been a reach but I think that was kinda a pr move to get a hometown guy but they could have traded down and got him later right?

I already explained why they shouldn't have drafted him first overall in the post you quoted. They could of gotten a likely generational talent in Barkley AND still gotten Mayfield. They could have easily traded back into the first to get the corner if they were 100% sold on the guy, given how many picks they had.

[PJ.]

No its not. I hate football.

[PJ.]

LA 13-3
SF 11-5
ARI 8-8
SEA 6-10

[PJ.]

I seriously think you guys are understimating Arizona.

[PJ.]

This fool out here editing post after I say he's wrong.

[PJ.]

Not you, you good.

[PJ.]

I'm aware. I think you're wrong tho. The core of Arizona is very strong. I feel like they are gonna win more than 3 games before Bradford gets injured. I feel like you're forgetting that went 8-8 last year without David Johnson and Carson Palmer. Also the defense is largely still there. Arizona gonna be very good.

[PJ.]

Seattle is much weaker.

[PJ.]

Based on the fact that we just lost our entire defense in free agency. Based on the fact that Seattle STILL has a historically bad o line

[PJ.]

Russell Wilson playing lights out with no blocking is unsustainable. We lost all our pass rush and our best only good corner. It was a good run men.

[PJ.]

game 7. he went 3-4. stanton went 3-1. Gabbert went 2-3.

[PJ.]

And for the record, they went 3-1 DESPITE Stanton, not because of him. And Palmers last loss was half on Stanton. He went 5-14 with an INT and 0 TDs, but he didn't start that game, so it's Palmers loss.It was a 33 point shut out loss to the Rams. Stanton got benched after 2 games. Gabbert started the following 5 until he got hurt. Then Stanton play 2 games. Including a 26-24 victory over the Seahawks.

So to put things in perspective, A Seahawks team without Sherman, Bennett, Kam lost to the Drew Stanton Cardinals with a playoff spot on the line(yes, it was due to a missed field goal by a head case kicker that we should of never signed and have since replaced with Sebastian Janikowski BUT THEY WERE LEADING THE GAME WITH DREW FUCKING STANTON UNDER CENTER). Sherman will not be back. Bennett will not be back. We also cut Jeremy Lane our second best corner. The historically bad line has received two upgrades: D.J Fluker, who Shea will tell you is not very good, and a 5th round rookie Tackle. That's it. Seattle probably fixed their lineback depth problem. And the defensive tackle depth problem. Hopefully either rookie we drafted can step in as a good pass rusher. But we're out 2 corners. One of them was the best in the league and a probable future hall of famer. Seahawks will be vulnerable against the pass for the first time in 8 years. Earl Thomas is good and can cover the whole field but he can't LITERALLY cover every receiver on the entire field at the same time. Kam has always been more line backer than cover guy. Even if Penny comes in and replaces Marshawn Lynch 100% as a "doesn't need a blocker" bruising one cut running back, it's only gonna go so far in helping Wilson.

It's gonna be a long year guys. At least we play the Bears.

[PJ.]

Also, not to go into full on negative nancy mode; but is there any actual evidence that is a great football coach instead of a guy who got lucky with a bunch of superstars on rookie contracts and his GM was allowed to ape shit in free agency for defensive stars AND depth - including a star QB that was being paid less than a million dollars a year?

[PJ.]

See that's my point. They were a "decent team in an incredibly tough division" LAST YEAR. They finished 8-8. The thing that makes it a little harder to project is the NFC West plays two other incredibly tough divisions next year: The AFC West and the NFC North. Much tougher than the NFC east and the AFC South.

[PJ.]

I think we should all secretly be accounting for Rosen being the greatest Quarterback ever.

[PJ.]

a bunch of superstars on rookie contracts and his GM was allowed to ape shit in free agency for defensive stars AND depth - including a star QB that was being paid less than a million dollars a year?

Basically how the Eagles were built

Right, there's kinda only two ways to win in sports with a cap nowadays, either nail draft picks and load up in free agency(2015 GSW, Seattle, Philly) or have generational talent on sweetheart deals (Pats, current GSW). You can opt for a combination of 1 and 2 (Spurs).

There's only one other proven way but it's not applicable in the NFL

[PJ.]

but the cost is pretty explicitly making building of dynasties hard.

well its a lot more about underpaying athletes that seriously fuck up their health, but no one really cares about that end of the stick

True. I mostly watch MLS where that isn't an issue because players can go to other places to make more.

This seems a lot like willful ignorance given the players that make up the MLS.

[PJ.]

I think we should all secretly be accounting for Rosen being the greatest Quarterback ever.

dude is hot garbo.

Woke Andrew Luck

[PJ.]

Yo, I'm looking at the schedule, we might win 1 game.

[PJ.]

If you think Rosen is bad, then every QB in this draft is going to be a bust.

[PJ.]

That's dumb, NFL teams shouldn't be punished for not wanting to alienate fans.

Fans should be less racist.

[PJ.]

Someone let me know when this thread is about football again

Hate to break it to you, but the protest are way bigger deal than the sport. NFL's product is horrifically low quality tbh.

[PJ.]

So if it was white people, talking about white problems, I assume you'd take the same stance of telling people not to spread their message to millions of people using the best platform available to them?

I'd assume you'd also break a picket line if your union went on strike, too, right?

[PJ.]

Also..why is "police should treat white people and black people the same" a controversial enough topic for it to possibly cost a player their job in the first place?

[PJ.]

I don't think he's a liberal.

[PJ.]

i don't think you know what that word means. Or you're a hypocrite. feel free to pick

[PJ.]

Okay, I admit it, I'm a prick. But are you going to admit you're a racist?

Also like...at least Google what a libertarian is.

Also..why is "police should treat white people and black people the same" a controversial enough topic for it to possibly cost a player their job in the first place?

I'd still like an answer to this, by the way.

[PJ.]

What does communism have to do with you being against black people using their freedom of speech to protest police brutality against minorities?

[PJ.]

Okay, I admit it, I'm a prick. But are you going to admit you're a racist?

Also like...at least Google what a libertarian is.

Also..why is "police should treat white people and black people the same" a controversial enough topic for it to possibly cost a player their job in the first place?

I'd still like an answer to this, by the way.

because n f l fans write the players paychecks. maybe in a perfect society it wouldn't be that way but it is.

Pretty sure most players paychecks aren't cashable from "the fans". Pretty sure those have a billionaires name on it.

Also a majority of the NFL's money actually doesn't come from the fans. It comes from tax payers (for new stadiums and stuff like the department of defense paying for the anthem to be televised), tv deals worth hundreds of millions of dollars per network, and sponsorship deals like Bose, the official headphones of the NFL.

[PJ.]

And like...you're an angry fan. It's you. You're part of the problem. Why does guys peacefully protesting for "police shouldn't shoot minorities" make you so mad?

[PJ.]

I respect what the protestors are fighting for but they are protesting the wrong thing in the name of publicity.

[PJ.]

It's easier to pick at the part of the code he's mad about.

For instance, fans are not in uniform. Should the NFL shut down concessions and memoriabilia shops in the stadium 5 minutes before the anthem and open them after, to increase patriotism and make sure everyone is "facing the flag and standing at attention". What about bathrooms? Or is that only for fans of color that need to respect the flag? White guy getting pre-game nachos ok but black guy next to him's nachos are disrespecting the flag?

[PJ.]

Also you're not allowed to wear the flag on clothing, so do you kick up a fit every June when forever 21 is selling American flag halter tops and shit?

[PJ.]

NHL does double anthem, right? Or oh canukistan up there and the on true anthem down here?

[PJ.]

Also are nachos ok as long as neither nacho getter is kneeling?

[PJ.]

I'd really like to know which parts of which of these rules are the important ones. The parts that are so important that they overrule things like free speech and egalitarianism(which

real

libertarians support, ftr)

[PJ.]

The running back pay trends are really bumming me out

[PJ.]

I hate football.

[PJ.]

Zito..can I be a houston fan too? I need something to cheer for

[PJ.]

I feel like they already have 4-5 of those in the bag tho. I wouldn't be surprised if they were 5-5 at the bye week.

[PJ.]

Dude...there were so many quarterbacks....

[PJ.]

Like...SOOOO MANY.

[PJ.]

Sean Lee

[PJ.]

Real talk, I was talking to my co-worker about wide receivers in daily, and I couldn't remember Beasley's name. I just said "the white guy on Dallas, they're all the same, it's the white guy that plays like all the other white guy's except this guy gets targets cause Dak throws short more than long". But yeah, Cole Beasley.

Also yeah, Sean Lee, super good linebacker, you should know his name because he's good at football. I know it's a struggle to know anybody that you can't draft in fantasy football, but yeah..at least remember good player's names.

@T-Bone...is Tavon Austin really on Dallas. WTF is the depth chart at wide receiver??

[PJ.]

He's still a former all-pro linebacker.

But yeah, between coming in late and being injured a lot, he's had very little time on the field

[PJ.]

Is Pittsburgh a contender this year and if they are, is this the last year of a possibly championship window? Presumably, next year is without Ben and Bell. Is it time to see if they can get assets for Antonio Brown and some of the other good but not past it players?

[PJ.]

But he's better than Landry Jones

[PJ.]

Noooooooooooooooooo

I feel like every two years the afc north is like this....

[PJ.]

I'm a Yankees/Raiders/Lakers fan. I don't think it's possible to hate Boston sports more. Lol

Oh hey that's all my teams.

these motherfuckers with no loyalty.

"I like the teams with championships." You might as well like the Steelers.

[PJ.]

Sorry, I only discuss football with real raider fans, not east coast bandwagoners.

[PJ.]

oh, west coast Yankees fan, wrong guess, my b.

Can't even root for the team in your own city and you're talking loyalty lolo

(and NorCal Lakers fan to boot, get outta here)

[PJ.]

And fuck yeah I'm a Lakers fan. I live in Sacramento - what, am I supposed to root for the Kings?

yes.

no loyalty

[PJ.]

hey...fuck you.

[PJ.]

Fake fans gotta stick together I guess.

If you're at staples, I won't buy you a beer. No trophy chasers.

[PJ.]

This Is Why You Can't Win A Super Bowl With A 100 Million Dollar QB(it's also why the NFL sucks).

[PJ.]

Dudes gonna be a monster. When your problem for rugby* is "you're too big," of course the solution is going to the only sport where being bigger is good.

*league, which is barely real rugby

didn't that other rugby dude crash out of the league?

[PJ.]

I wouldn't be shocked if the Jets surprised people this year. Not in a "Omg Darnold is taking them to the Super Bowl" kind of way. But more like the Bills last year where they quietly snuck into the playoffs, lost in the first round, and people are forgetting they were even there.

well the reason for that is they kinda seemed to be trying to tank by trading their best player on each side of the ball and semi-consistently tried to bench their starting QB

[PJ.]

Lol

[PJ.]

The Bears always find the most creative ways to fail.

[PJ.]

Vinatieri, on the other hand...

I'm 29 years old. I do not remember a time where Adam Vinatieri wasn't a professional football player.

[PJ.]

The steelers kinda are trash this year tho...

[PJ.]

My favorite part was when Flacco did the Jay Cutler in a Lamar Jackson wild cat gimmick play.

[PJ.]

That was the thing that knocked me out of post-break up(?) stupor. I was sitting there, zoning out, drinking my water and letting the world wash over me while lost in thought. I cam back to reality to the sound of my own voice screaming "JAY CUTTY!!!". I was honestly amazed. Very funny seeing a guy who has admitted to slacking off after his big contract and is currently running a "I'm reinvigorated because I don't want to lose my job" reputation fixing campaign go full Cutler.

[PJ.]

I think the message was "fuck you, lamar"

[PJ.]

Is that a real picture of Ryan fitspatrick?

[PJ.]

I think it might for real be the Bengals. They have been playing decent defense.

[PJ.]

And they don't even have burfict yet.

[PJ.]

AND ANDY DALTON IS PLAYING GREAT.

Bengals number 1

[PJ.]

Bengals might be an overreaction because I honestly can't tell anyone how good the Ravens or Colts are. Broncos Def beat 2 bad teams. Bucs beat 2 good teams tho.

[PJ.]

Might as well just burn the money

[PJ.]

Cool, so the Pats traded a 5th rd pick for a 7th rd pick? Dope. And used money they could of used on Dez? Dope.

I honestly don't get this Josh Gordon thing. What evidence is there that he can play beside 10 good games 5 years ago?

[PJ.]

"On Saturday, Gordon reportedly showed up to the Browns’ training facility “a little tardy” and “not himself,” complaining of a pulled hamstring; according to Cleveland.com’s Mary Kay Cabot, the Browns felt they couldn’t rely on his sobriety." - TheRinger.com

[PJ.]

Cool, so the Pats traded a 5th rd pick for a 7th rd pick? Dope. And used money they could of used on Dez? Dope.

I honestly don't get this Josh Gordon thing. What evidence is there that he can play beside 10 good games 5 years ago?

I mean, Josh Gordon's stats were better on a per game basis than Dez Bryant last season, despite having worse QBs, an 0-16 team and only playing 5 games.

But Dez will at least be on the field...complaining..trying to get PI calls. It's not a complete negative.

[PJ.]

The worst acceptable starter has been dubbed "The Dalton Line" for a while now I think. Where like, if they're worse than Dalton they are not a long-term option, if they are better than him than they are.

And if you take this year's dvoa ranking and last year's ranking and average them out..he's basically still the line.

[PJ.]

Guys like Wilson... can ball out just as well, but holy shit their floors are dumpster fires.

Wilson's "floor" isn't the problem.

https://twitter.com/ShaunOHara60/status ... 6245141504

The problem is we have a historically bad O-Line and up until last year it was coached by atrocious O-line coach Tom Cable(who's now with the Raiders thank god). 5 CUT BLOCKS!!! But yeah, Wilson is fucking amazing.

[PJ.]

Can we have a witty name for Baker Mayfield now that he's toppled Savior Sam - who seems to not be a savior at all?

[PJ.]

How about we call you "Savior" after you save something?

[PJ.]

Jump to a different bandwagon obv

[PJ.]

I remember. But only slightly. Them getting clowned by farve in the super bowl was the pinnacle of their success prior Brady (unless you count them getting clowned by the Super Bowl Shuffle Bears).

[PJ.]

Join me on the Browns bandwagon. Myles Garrett celebrates sacks with anime poses and shouts out the character on instagram.

[PJ.]

and even when you lose..ur still rooting for miles garrett and baker mayfield.

[PJ.]

Right, the issue is they've allowed more passing touchdowns in the first 4 games then any team ever, and only some of that has to do with the NFl being flag football nowadays.

[PJ.]

Well, a lot of it has been the absence of shazier. The do everything linebacker is like...the 3rd or 4th most important position in football and the steelers don't have one.

[PJ.]

But the Bengals tho.

[PJ.]

My team killed my parlay by playing good for once. But my tease is still alive. As long as the saints win tomorrow I cash.

[PJ.]

I am picking the rams winning the superbowl

I can see NE, KC, JAC being their opponent in superbowl.

TEN, CIN should also make playoffs but won't last as long

CIN vs KC going to prime time increases Andy's chance of screwing things up in that game

Jacksonville isn't even making the playoffs bro

[PJ.]

They aren't best coached team in their division, they don't have the best defense in their division, they have the worst quarterback, and they aren't even the most injured team in the division. It's bad man. Really bad.

[PJ.]

The best team in that division might honestly be the one with the worst rexord. The Colts are easily a team with a couple less bad breaks is 4 or 5 wins instead of 1.

[PJ.]

I'm surprised they even got that from Jacksonville. Tops Hyde plays 1 game if fournette stays healthy after the bye.

[PJ.]

Well Hyde is the 15th highest paid running back in the league. Part of this is Chubb is good, but them signing Hyde AND Duke Johnson AND drafting Chubb was just bizarre to begin with. Them gaining any value at all from that should be a positive.

On the other side of the coin though is Jacksonville who's gonna have the most expensive back up runner in the league next year. Two injury prone guys better than one? And they are gonna *have* to let Yeldon walk, which is even more bizarre considering he's kinda talented.

[PJ.]

It's just really bizarre. I'm sure bro can pop in and give the fan take, but it's a bizarre move.

[PJ.]

Genius

[PJ.]

They're really only throwing the ball to Landry and Njoku anyway. Callaway got 39 targets but only 16 catches, so that's not good, but another receiver probably won't fix that fact that they aren't really using the ones they have, especially one who admittedly has kinda struggled to get open in recent years, like Dez.

30% of the targets go to Landry, 19% to Njoku, 11% to Callaway, 9.5% to Johnson. so the last 30% got to a mixture of everyone else(this is including guys who are not with the team so the number might be slightly more skewed than they look).

edit: i think dex is just done now.

[PJ.]

The bummer about Bell is I think he should of done this last year.

[PJ.]

I feel he just chose wrong

[PJ.]

I don't think he knew he was trying to tank until he found out he was bad. Like..trading Carr would of been just as good for tanking *and* bether for the future.

[PJ.]

I think y'all are under rating cooper like crazy

[PJ.]

I don't think Dez is a big time receiving threat anymore, and that's the problem

[PJ.]

well yeah, Jameis threw 4 picks and fitzmagic tied the game up from 3 scores down.

[PJ.]

That's weird. Tate was better for the Lions all year. Surprised they kept Jones.

[PJ.]

yeah, i listened to Mike Lombardi's podcast like 7 hours after I wrote that and that seemed to be his thinking. They have a couple young receivers, they'd rather have a real 3rd instead of a compensatory third.

[PJ.]

Umm..cause He's a good receiver. And your leading receiver is Zach Ertz.

Golden Tate is a slot receiver with a 10.9 Y/R(slightly better than Ertz). Your number 1 wideout has less than a yard more. I feel like they are expecting Jeffrey to be the deep threat with Ertz and Tate working under. And Agholor is just struggling.

[PJ.]

but the eagles already have two slot receivers in Algholar and Mathews
they dont need a third, they need a deep threat
or an RB
or a DB

Matthews has been playing as the deep threat(also hardly playing). His Y/R is 20.0

[PJ.]

Idk man..all I can think of is that they are gonna try to have Alshon be the deeper threat, Agholor be an Anquan Boldin intermediate on the outside type, with Tate in the slot and Ertz doing the rest of his deal. I can't really explain it more than that. All I know is I like Tate.

[PJ.]

I think Tate Ertz Alshon is better than Ertz...and nobody else catching the ball. I suspect you're in better shape. I do agree with Bro in that..I think it's very tough to win this year cause the Chiefs and the Rams are getting it done this year.

[PJ.]

and y can't Mullens just be a good football player? The Raiders D does suck though.

Maybe he is, but I think that's the cup half full opinion. It might even be the cup hath runneth over opinion.

Some Nick Mullens facts: he hasn't played a game of football in 2 years, and has been an on/off practice squad guy in that time. Aside from tonight, he's had 7 other 0 int games with 3 or more tds in his career; they were against Louisiana Tech, North Texas, Texas State, Rice, Charlotte, and UTEP twice. Those teams are all in the C-USA and combine for a record of 29-57. You would think he was dominant, right? Wrong, he was a 4 year starter for Southern Miss with a 20-26 record and never won the C-Usa.

He's *likely* not very good and the Raiders defense is C-USA bad. Which sounds almost as crazy as Mullens being good.

[PJ.]

Speaking of people getting hit ALL THE FUCKING TIME; Josh Rosen man. Per PFF, Rosen is releasing the ball the second fastest in the league and is getting sacked in the top 5. Man..I wish the line wasn't so shitty cause Rosen is so fucking good.

[PJ.]

If you look at the stats, you're wrong.

Also note on Raiders O-Line: Seahawks fired Tom Cable and the line has dramatically improved, the Raiders hired Tom Cable and the line their got drastically worse.

[PJ.]

I'm favoriting this post so I can rub it in your face.

[PJ.]

Nathan Peterman threw three interceptions in a game and significantly lowered his career interception rating.

[PJ.]

Hey, I know bro has made it cool to rub statements in other people's faces, but can we not celebrate a torn Achilles and likely an ended career.

[PJ.]

lol

[PJ.]

I'm not saying I don't partake, I'm saying bro popularized the "this is aging well" thing

[PJ.]

And more importantly don't be like "haha you look stupid because Dez tore his Achilles and his career is in jeopardy"

[PJ.]

colt Mccoy is good tho.

[PJ.]

while I think he's definitely being blacklisted, I also think people are taking it to illogical extremes and it makes them sound ridiculous. It seems like people forget that his last two years in the league that he actually sucked?

In 2015, he was benched for Blaine Gabbert and was 35th in DYAR(only ahead of dead arm Peyton Manning and Rams Nick Foles), 34th in DVOA(beat out Matt Cassell), and 29the in QBR of 37 qualified passers. In 2016, those stats respectively were 29th, 30th, and 23rd out of 34. For DYAR, he was basically only ahead of Jeff Fisher's guys, The Brockweiler, and Fitztragic. He was basically a mobile Joe Flacco. it's not a ringing endorsement. He was 3-17 in his last 20 games. The team was bad and the schemes were bad, so there is reason to believe if he came back under a coach that didn't suck it would be better, but let's not act like he was Andrew Luck or something. There isn't any recent evidence saying he would be definitively better than even say..Eli Manning this year. The last few years of his career say he's an inaccurate QB that doesn't throw deep, and doesn't really find the end zone horrible often.

[PJ.]

but let's not act like he was Andrew Luck or something.

Literally nobody is doing this.

beside Bella and every sports media website? Just type Colin kaepernick into Google on a Monday, and you get a bunch of articles about "x team is the new evidence that Kaepernick is being colluded against". This week was Washington, last week was the Jets. Some weeks it's multiple teams.

[PJ.]

I agree he could start for someone..like..3-4 options, but people need to dial back the "he can start everytime someone throws an interception" rhetoric, especially considering that all the noise is partially why you can't hire him as a back up. You don't want the fans chanting for your back up the second your starter throws a pick.

[PJ.]

Well the biggest thing pointing to collusion is that most of these teams aren't even working him out. They call in the clown squad for work outs and kaep's phone doesn't ring. And that's weird.

[PJ.]

I mean, I'm half--trolling with that last comment, because while it's true, the difference is pretty marginal (passerwise, anyway, Kaepernick's run game is way better) and I absolutely know QB stats are to do with way more than just how well the QB played. Having a functional offensive line is the difference between a QB being a star and ending up sacked into oblivion like David Carr, which is the major areas Kaepernick's teams have been better than Luck's, but then, TY Hilton is a better skill position player than any Kaepernick had. Reaally, the difference in passing ability as observed by their actual play wasn't as big as you're trying to make out.

This is simply untrue. Kaepernick has exactly one year where he outperformed or marginally underperformed on a similar sample size. 2012 kaepernick threw just above 200 passes while luck threw 600. 2013 kaepernick outperformed luck. 2014 luck significantly outplayed kaep. 2015 luck missed over half the season but still was slightly statistically higher than kaep but both were god awful . 2016 luck significantly outperform kaep who was one of the statistically worse qbs for a 3rd year straight.

Also despite the Colts having a worse o-line lucks ability to get the ball out + just the sheer number of pass plays they ran actually make the advanced pass blocking stats look reasonable.

[PJ.]

-145 DYAR, -17.5% DVOA, 55.2 QBR.

Only 3 starting QBs have worse DYAR than that this year. Dak, Rosen Darnold. You're not replacing any of those guys with Kaep. You could add Tannehill to that list from the non-qualifiers(but he'd be statistically a worse passer than Osweiler in this exercise - much better runner though as always). DVOA is better than the aforementioned as well as Mariota and Jimmy G. QBR would be good for 21st of the 32 guy who have thrown at least 165 passes (and basically every guy who hasn't beside McCoy, Mullens, and Barkley) but not Mariota. So DVOA and DYAR wise, I don't think he's better than anyone that he could replace beside Tabnehill (who already seems replaced) because they are all younger and in Mariota's case, basically the same guy(which could be an argument to have him as a back up there if you don't buy that he'd be a distraction). If you view QBR as the end all be all + look at marginal deficits in the other 2 stats(and only placing tiny weight on his rushing which is obviously elite), I feel the only guys you can make an argument for starting wise are Bortles, Keenum, Alex Smith pre-injury(but I think McCoy is going to play better), and *maybe* Eli. Also everyone in Buffalo once Barkley has stats that don't only consist of him roasting and toasting the jets. So Miami, Jax, Den, Buffalo(post-Allen injury) and *maybe* NYG are the only real spots as a starter.

And yeah, I agree he'd be probably the 3rd or 4th best back up, and he's definitely better than all the free agent clown squad guys but that's going into the issue of "would the media he brings be better or worse than standing pat or grabbing EJ Manuel" which I think gets you into a bizarre subjective argument.

[PJ.]

But I also think there's a valid argument that the NFL as it currently exists is tailored towards his skill set, considering how many teams run RPOs, read options, and just the general proliferation of the spread.

When I brought up my counter argument, my goal was to simply say that it's not a black and white situation (no pun intended). It's complex and while it's entirely possible and even likely that there is validity to the claim of him be blacklisted, that it isn't as cut and dry as people like to make it seem. He likely would not succeed in a place like Washington and likely could strive in places with a better scheme or one that fits close 6o his skill set, like Tennessee. Also there's merit in tailoring the scheme to him if you're a trash fire like buffalo or miami, but is that possible success even worth it when you can just pick high in the draft instead?

Edit: ftr, I think Miami is definitely a team that could be used as a great example for the collusion case. Both quarterbacks are no good, they are sitting essentially in the middle of a draft that seems loaded with defensive linemen(which they need) and light on any offensive talent at all at the top and the QBs who are being rated highly rated arent really that great - Herbert and Lock seem to fall in the Bortles camp of "they look like starting QBs but aren't actually good".

[PJ.]

Technically luck can't throw the ball like brisett either seeing as they had him "pinch hit" for luck on a hail Mary earlier this year

[PJ.]

And he's also worse than Brick Osweiler this year, hasn't lasted an entire season in 3 years and throws considerably more interceptions(41 more in only 13 more games)

also take into account that kaep played the legion of boom twice a year.

[PJ.]

And he's also worse than Brick Osweiler this year, hasn't lasted an entire season in 3 years and throws considerably more interceptions(41 more in only 13 more games)

also take into account that kaep played the legion of boom twice a year.

EBWOP: also according to the Miami Herald, the phins are looking for a new QB in 2019, as they just recently worked out Paxton Lynch - who''s almost certainly worse than kaepernick (it went poorly). They also sent scouts to Oregon @ Utah

[PJ.]

For sure, I was just trolling.

[PJ.]

He's also kinda stinking it up.

[PJ.]

Oh no, the racist are here.

Kaep has way more than 3 places he can be a backup for. Are you watching the nfl? There's 3-4 places he could *likely* be a starter for. And as it was pointed out by some reasonable people in this thread, it's the fact that he's not even getting a call for a work out that stinks of collusion when you got casting calls going out for stinkos like EJ Manuel, tj yates, and Paxton lynch, in addition to the fact that there's quite a few known stinkos at back up like Chad Henne, Geno Smith, and Brandon Weeden. Also kaep's 1-10 record was with a bad scheme and a pretty bare bones team. You don't have to look much further than MS favorite (apparently) Case Keenum to figure that out. Bad scheme under Fisher, bad qb under fisher, basically bottom of all advanced stats. Then he got a good scheme and he was like 3rd in DVOA. Now he's in a pretty mediocre scheme and he's just barely outside of the bottom third of quarterbacks. Alex Smith is basically the same way. Good scheme in KC, "NEW ALEX SMITH SO GOOD", but bad scheme in Washington and he shit it up.

My point in bringing this up intially was simply that the "Kaep is getting colluded against cause he''s a super great qb better than 2/3rds" woke fam were getting carried away. But I think the "kaep sucks, and no such thing as collusion, it's because he's an entitled asshole that only as himself" conservative, "I'm against the kneeling" crowd are also totally off base (probably more than the first group and also probably racist). All I wanted to accomplish when I was talking numbers on him was that say that it's likely somewhere in between. There are a number of teams he could help out immensely. There are also teams that he could not effect at all.
Tl;dr: you should be a Colin kaepernick centrist. Fine qb, should definitely have a job, but he's not the answer to all of a teams problems.

[PJ.]

his numbers and his abilities say that he could have been a league average starter.

they don't tho. He's incredibly inefficient. Has had awful DVOA and DYAR his last 2 years. His QBR has been in the bottom third of starters. Like..I already wrote this all, and I can link it to you if you like. His

numbers

advanced stats are not good.

[PJ.]

Eric Reid randomly drug tested for the 6th time this season One of those was his signing test, so 5 times thru the "random" selection.

That's insane. They REALLY want him out of the league, huh?

The odds of being picked each week are 1/6 (about 60 per team, 10 players per team are picked each week).
He has been picked 5/8 weeks since signing. The approximate odds of that happening are .0074%.

The NFL is *for sure* strongarming people like Kaep and Reid out.
We're just lucky we have an owner who says FUCK YOU to Goodell.

This is pretty garbage, ya

[PJ.]

his numbers and his abilities say that he could have been a league average starter.

they don't tho. He's incredibly inefficient. Has had awful DVOA and DYAR his last 2 years. His QBR has been in the bottom third of starters. Like..I already wrote this all, and I can link it to you if you like. His

numbers

advanced stats are not good.

and yet...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics ... ed84f59ea4

a quick search pulls up just one of many sources basically saying he's league average.

Right, that's my point. Media care more about selling copy on this than providing you with actual facts, because the truth isn't interesting. People only want hear two things: "kaep is 100% being colluded against and he's the 16th best QB in the league" or "he's a bum, he sucks, he hates america, he killed Nike's stock." Neither is true.

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb2015
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb2016

That's his last 2 years in football where he was getting benched for Blaine Gabbert.


https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb2014

That's his last year with harbaugh and it's below average by a fair bit.

Look up his ANY/A+. That's adjusted net yards index. It'll tell you he throws shorter passes on average than other QBs. Look up his comp%+. It'll tell you he is more inaccurate than his peers too(while also throw shorter than them). He also gets sacked more, by a significant margin. But you are right, he takes care of the football far above average. Better than QBs like Smith and Cousins who are known as game manager types.

Again, I'm not saying he doesn't deserve a job or isn't being colluded against. I'm saying both sides are exaggerating his prowess or lack thereof to fit what they want the narrative to be. This is similar to the NCAA "pay the players" argument. They should, but every time someone compares the players to slaves it sets the entire argument back to square 1 because it's an unreasonable statement. That's what's happening with media and the people in kaep's corner every time they say he could start for half the teams in the NFL. It's just not true.

[PJ.]

Full Academic Scholarship

[PJ.]

Feel free to try the "schools don't have enough money to play the players" arguement next. That's the other favorite. I can shoot down the hits all night

[PJ.]

"ok?" indeed. You're a dime-a-dozen dipshit.

[PJ.]

Everyone assumed they would, but they forgot to account for the fact that John Elway is a hypocritical Conservative man-baby.

In sad news for Bro, the BORTORTLE has been benched. Cody Kessler, who went 0-8 for the Browns, is the new Jags starting QB. Insert comment about Kaepernick's collusion case here.

Well...Kessler had a better DYAR and DVOA then Kaep did that year.

He also got the Browns Myles Garrett

[PJ.]

this is why you're my favorite user shaft.ed

[PJ.]

"ok?" indeed. You're a dime-a-dozen dipshit.

"Nero doesn't agree with me?!? Better throw a hissy fit and call him names. That'll show him."

links don't disprove anything.

They are getting paid in fake education. You're just a dipshit

[PJ.]

No. Your argument is student athletes are being paid in the form of services, ie a free education from a university. My counter argument is, that is untrue because a lot of the time they are not receiving that education; they are being put in paper classes, being sent answers for test, or flat out having other people take these classes for them at the behest of the athletic programs. They are receiving a often fake education. Just as you wouldn't think that being paid in monopoly money is fair compensation, being paid in a degree on Swahili when you learned 0 swahili isn't fair compensation(especially when the NCAA make 10.7 billion dollars off March Madness alone). I gave you three links as citation for that but as usual you were too obtuse to understand that being supplied with a fake education is bad because as usual you're under informed, but insist on thinking that you actual know something. Yes, I only linked you to three cases, but there are cases among over 3 dozen NCAA division 1 schools of academic fraud involving athletes that I could of showed you. Feel free to use Google if you need to verify it.


Tl;dr: you're a dipshit

[PJ.]

Of course. There's a bunch of different arguments for why "they get an education" is a stupid argument but if you're main argument is that they should be "student-athletes" and we give them an education; then at minimum the athletes should be receiving that education before we start to talk about the millions and millions of dollars they pull in through TV deals, boosters etc. The pre-requisite for that conversation should be the actual, non-fraudulent "payment" of what is promised, which is being largely unmet.

[PJ.]

An NCAA poll conducted in 2015 showed that more than 75% of D1 basketball players said they believed it was “somewhat likely” they would play professionally and it is similar for football players.

For context, last year there were 5,265 D1 basketball players. 50 NCAA players got drafted in the NBA draft. even if you account for the another say 200 guys that go pro overseas. What are you going to do with the other 3700 guys who majored in basketball?

edit: also, as shaft.ed said, you're just formalizing the exploitation.

the classes are going to happen anyway
the uni doesn't really lose anything of monetary value

It's not that monetary value is at stake, it's that they are promising to provide services for services and aren't doing that, therefore the players are completely uncompensated while the universities make enough money to use helicopters to blow dry their football fields, and have state of the art facilities and the NCAA rakes in billions of dollars in tv and advertising, while the players don't even get the one thing they are promised as compensation.

[PJ.]

I dont see the point of making such a convoluted argument
there are other people who go to college and get pointless degrees

I don't think it's convuluted. Don't have paper classes for sake of academic fraud for athletes and then go "we paying them in education".

And yes, there are people who get pointless degrees, but they chose them. And there is a difference between taking real classes that don't matter and taking fake classes entirely.

[PJ.]

Yes. They play games on conference tv. They should get something. Not Zion money, but something

~~~~

I'm changing this back to nfl football. Should Frank Gore be in the Hall of Fame when he's eligible?

[PJ.]

Should Frank Gore be in the Hall of Fame when he's eligible?

[PJ.]

LT is the best running back of all time. Tough comparison.

[PJ.]

LT or Gore?

[PJ.]

The most season with over 1200 yards from scrimmage. Sustained pretty goodness. 4 seasons in the top 10 of yards from scrimmage. I feel he was a bit before his time and was under utilized as a pass catcher. One of the best pass blocking backs ever. Corner stone for a pretty shitty team.

[PJ.]

I think the case against him is equally compelling to be fair.

[PJ.]

Well, I think there's something to be said that if you think about the guys from his era, he's like...FAR down the list of guys you think of as great and he wasn't productive enough as a passing back to *really argue that he was before his time definitively. I think it's close.

[PJ.]

Ok..I'm officially on team call kaep.

[PJ.]

Oh, I really like Josh Johnson. He played for USD under Jim Harbaugh. He was also on the bucs for a while.

[PJ.]

Lol, he's only a year older than kaep. I'm not saying he's better than kaep by any stretch of the imagination. It might even be a slight at kaep (black guy, best stretch of his career was under Jim harbaugh, been out of the league for multiple years, last played for San francisco). But I like johnson. He was a bit of a hero down here cause USD was real good when he was there.

[PJ.]

On paper. 49ers one was ez to see

[PJ.]

Cleveland was 1 point underdog.

Bears not an upset cause Goff sucks in cold weather, people are just stupid.

Miami and Oakland yes.

Indy....kind of.

[PJ.]

2-0 this year.

[PJ.]

This week had a lot of upsets. Wow

the biggest upset was george kittle not breaking the record

U big mad, huh?

[PJ.]

L2: boner had henry on the bench. KMD had cooper. idk who has Kittle but Kittle is def owned and started.

[PJ.]

How about you sign 1 guy that can catch a football beside CMC? Also Cam needs some "stay healthy" voodoo

[PJ.]

I don't think that the refs are bad. I think the rules are bad.

[PJ.]

It's hard to not shit the bed when every rule is poorly constructed and/or constructed in a way that "it happens on every play and it's up to discretion"

[PJ.]

lots of serious and non-serious talk about Foles over Wentz, for sure. And weirdly the age difference isn't as much as one would think given they were drafted 4 years apart and how it feels like we've already had 3 distinct periods of Foles career. I feel the answer depends on how much you can get for Wentz in a trade. If someone the Giants or somebody would trade 2 first and a 3rd or something and you can get picks and 6 years of Foles instead of no picks and 9 years of Wentz, it's probably worth it. Considering Wentz is the most valuable asset in football for only one more year, it might be good to the pull the trigger.

[PJ.]

On hard knocks: I wouldn't mind the Lions because we'd get an incompetent asshole coach being revolted on by his team.

[PJ.]

I just don't understand why Philly's defense plays better with Foles in the game.
Is it because he has less horrible turnovers than Wentz? Do the coaches put more load onto the running game giving more rest for the D? Did Schwartz finally settle on the optimal D-back combo? But why is the pass rusher back to full form?

This isn't philly specific but Mike Lombardi said on his podcast defenses play better in November and December because they play more conservatively instead of selling out for big plays and getting crushed like in earlier games.

[PJ.]

Foles has been good and bad in previous years. His good years have been in Philly so I can understand he wants to stay there. Wentz likely has a longer career ahead of him. I think it really comes down to which one can you make the better deal off of.

MIA, JAX, DEN, NYG, WAS, CIN?, TB?, TEN? (Marriota has skill but he gets hurt a bit too much) are in the market for new QBs next year. I wouldn't be willing to give Wentz or Foles within the division. Other teams I'd be fine with making the deal if the price is right.

I hope Alex Smith recovers well from his injury, you hate to see that kinda thing happen. I think WAS should consider Fitzmagic as their temp replacement for Alex. I don't think Fitz has played there yet, but I could be wrong

I'm starting to increasingly think that scheme is more important to the success of your team than your QB. Pederson is saying he's asking Wentz to do more/Foles to do less, maybe that has to do with it. Wentz has good advanced metrics but the team looks flat. By the advanced stats, he's the 11th-14th best guy. Depending on what the Foles deal becomes, it might be worth it to trade Wentz even though he's better.

[PJ.]

Wentz is only 1 more year on the cheap, but that cheap year might entice someone like the giants to go hard for a trade.

[PJ.]

Probably should of just skipped the game

[PJ.]

Should of went to Tony Romo.

[PJ.]

I think "trying" is wrong.

[PJ.]

I just don't get why the browns. Chubb is better than him and Duke Johnson is a servicable change of pace back.. Unless they are gonna try to trade johnson and Hunt is on a budget AF contract

[PJ.]

He basically already served 6 games which is plenty for what he did. At least from last I checked in on the issue.

[PJ.]

Kyler Murray being 5'10 is a work. Sry.

[PJ.]

I'm bummed that we lost Earl Thomas. Without Earl Thomas we need an entirely new defensive scheme

[PJ.]

Haskins. And I'd assume they will, but the major point of contention with obj was Eli I thought, so maybe not?

[PJ.]

I think the Washington situation is fine cause they at least have a healthy qb on their roster that has had a good NFL season in the past 2 years. Keenum is a viable QB with a proper system that utilizes his strengths and minimizes his weaknesses. Foles is also in that boat. Dalton is fine and on a super team friendly contract.

The Giants and Dolphins simply don't. Tampa's option is not very good and sometimes molests uber drivers. So that's not good. Arizona is about to get rid of Rosen to draft kyler murray....which is ???. Also Cam Newton might miss all of 2019, so that puts Carolina right near the bottom of the qb situations list, at least for 2019.

[PJ.]

Keenum also had Jeff Fisher and Bill Musgrave design the offenses he ran aside from.the season. In Minnesota. Hence the comparison to Foles. A QB is only going to be as good as the system he is in except in rare instances. Alex Smith is another fine comparison. In a very well thought out and scripted offense, Smith is fucking awesome. In a shit show like Washington, he got smoked. Washington is going to suck because the coaches and owner suck not because keenum sucks.

I'd also put SF in the bad QB situation club, because their 2nd best QB might be making 137m dollars.

Source on cam: https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source= ... 2799830366

Basically ownet saying they aren't rushing Cam Newton back and if he has to miss all of 2019 that's fine.

[PJ.]

I hope they take Murray and trade Rosen so he can play on a team that isn't a complete clown fiesta.

[PJ.]

I thought it was equal parts bad receivers and that defenses got used to some of Kelly's shenanigans. But I agree that Pedersen asking Foles what he was comfortable with and building around that is huge.

But yeah, in short, 85% of QBs are system quarterbacks so if your system sucks, your qb probably also sucks. The other 15% are split between guys who just suck and like...the 5 guys in the history of the NFL that are great regardless of system.

[PJ.]

That can't be true.

[PJ.]

The Marcus smith thing

[PJ.]

Promoting Williams would of been very not good. I'm not entirely a fan of having any body as head coach that isn't calling offensive plays right now. And I agree that promoting kitchens wasn't the most ambitious move, but I feel like it's a hell of a lot better than hiring a retread or "somebody that knows Sean McVay". At the very least you maintain continuity from last year. Honestly...I wouldn't complain about anything, Kliff Kingsbury is the head coach of an NFL team and it isn't yours, I feel like that's cause for celebration.

[PJ.]

I think you're way too high on the steelers and way too low on cinci

[PJ.]

You're high.

[PJ.]

they could easily be 8-8 next year.

[PJ.]

I thought the Raiders did fine

[PJ.]

also like..the other 2 guys had the same agent as khalil mack...

Edit: who is also amari cooper's agent.