How do you develop charisma?

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Nancy Drew 39
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Post Post #0  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:33 pm

I am still furious that I just lost a recent game because town wouldn’t fucking listen to my reads. I had one scum nailed from the getgo but I couldn’t manage to convince town and then in LYLO, I couldn’t stop one of the remaining townies from mislynching my top townread.

And yet in another game that just ended, town either lynched/vigged three players that I correctly townread. This has happened to me more times than I care to remember. :cry:

This is seriously becoming like a extremely depressing broken record. It’s one thing to lose games because of bad reads but to lose games, when you’re reads are spot on, is totally disheartening. It almost makes me want to give up playing mafia altogether. :(

If I was able to either push my reads or convince others, my town winrate, would be through the freaking roof!

Thing with Nancy is we just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it.

(I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~ the worst

Xtoxm
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Post Post #1  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:38 pm

12 years still dont have any
you have it or you dont
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the worst
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Post Post #2  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:22 pm

I kinda think post/word count helps with being listened to

if you keep things pretty short sharp and shiny people tend to assume you know what you're talking about, whereas if you're more long worded people tend to be less likely to read it all

not saying I'm necessarily actually good at this ftr
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Post Post #3  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:26 pm

You need to be able to read people and the gamestate as a whole in order to have genuine charisma in a mafia game.

When you are already trusted and have proven yourself to be competent, the forceful approach will do fine; it's the most straightforward approach but you need that extra boom for it to work or otherwise it will just derail the game into town on town arguing, which favors scum.

If you are considered scummy, there isn't a whole lot you can do other than try to push the gamestate in a way that will cause scum to do scummy things. Push on people wagoning you, try to reach out to people you are townreading, etc. Do whatever you need to in order to build more awkward situations for your scumreads to handle badly, since then you can potentially get the heat off of you and onto them instead.

If town is disorganized, you need to be the glue. Get your townreads to townread each other. Your scumreads DO NOT MATTER in this situation, since you will never be able to get them lynched without support. Build town rapport and then hopefully the scum that were riding the discord will be much easier to catch for having done so.

Etc. Etc.

You can't just do one thing and expect it to work every game, and you can't rely on read strength to carry you through your town games. Some games will be utterly impossible without a very subtle specific approach, you just have to figure out what approach that is.
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Nancy Drew 39
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Post Post #4  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:27 pm

In post 2, the worst wrote:I kinda think post/word count helps with being listened to

if you keep things pretty short sharp and shiny people tend to assume you know what you're talking about, whereas if you're more long worded people tend to be less likely to read it all

not saying I'm necessarily actually good at this ftr


I think I do that though and it obviously hasn’t helped too much.

Thing with Nancy is we just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it.

(I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~ the worst

Persivul
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Post Post #5  (ISO)  » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:06 pm

You don't have to be charismatic to get lynches. I'm an asshole and I can get people lynched. Make solid fact-based cases on people, and you'll get votes on them regardless of your personality. Listen to me i haz good readz generally isn't very effective.

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Post Post #6  (ISO)  » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:48 am

if your trying to get people to sheep u after your death I think ur going to be sorely disappointed with any attempts to improve your charisma in order to get those results. very few players are ones to blindly sheep dead players reads, even fewer are going to sheep those reads very long. Even the most charismatic of players don't really get a person to completely sheep them once they are no longer present to guide them to pushes.
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Post Post #7  (ISO)  » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:02 pm

In post 2, the worst wrote:I kinda think post/word count helps with being listened to
if you keep things pretty short sharp and shiny people tend to assume you know what you're talking about, whereas if you're more long worded people tend to be less likely to read it all
not saying I'm necessarily actually good at this ftr
Hate to break it to ya but people listen to me a fair amount and I'm the poster child for verbosity. :P

the worst
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Post Post #8  (ISO)  » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:07 pm

listen to who?

...yeah that's a good point
I guess we all have our different ways of being convincing too. actually being natural/yourself is definitely part of being charismatic
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Post Post #9  (ISO)  » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:14 pm

In post 0, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:If I was able to either push my reads or convince others, my town winrate, would be through the freaking roof!

It's not your fault if people refuse to listen to you. Stop caring so much about your winrate and instead focus on how well you played. If you were generally townread and you had good reads, you played well and should be happy about the game regardless of the result.

It's the not the only course of action, but it's the one I picked and I'm happier because of it :P
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Post Post #10  (ISO)  » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:15 pm

The way I play nowadays, I'm often aiming deliberately to not be charismatic--I don't want people to follow me most of the time, because in spite of how hard I push my read, in spite of how many points I raise (and I wouldn't raise a point I didn't believe was a good one; every point I raise I feel is a valid one), I have doubts on whether my point (no matter how good the point may be) is right, and because of that, I have doubts as to whether my entire push is right.

I deliberately hide this, so it looks like I am pushing with absolute 100% certainty my target is scum, but it's a facade and underneath is the me that is less sure of the read. You can tell that these reads are less certain, because I am going out of my way to avoid trying to actually lynch my target; I will keep stating a person is scum, without really activating my charismatic side.

Because the actual key to charisma, is to know your audience and write things as close to their perspective as is possible. Use THEIR reasoning, THEIR process, even if it is alien to you, even if it is foreign and seems wildly off-base to you, and turn it around. Find the weaknesses in their opposing viewpoint, not from YOUR view, but from THEIR view, point out THEIR narrative's contradictions: "Okay, so you think that X means Y for Z. Why not for A?" Get them to flesh out why point A applies for person B, but not C, and then make your argument for why point A is better applied for person C, rather than person B.

In other words, you don't get progress by telling them their points are wrong; their reads are wrong. You get progress by telling them their points are right, but being misapplied; you get progress by telling them their reads are mostly right, but they went off-base when they made this mistake here, and you guide them through THEIR logic, THEIR reasoning, as to where they went wrong--not your own.

And you do this for every player you try to convince, while adding in your own thoughts as is necessary, but your own thoughts aren't so much for convincing others you're right so much as they are to convince others that you have a genuinely unique, original perspective with a town origin. (In other words, showing your own thoughts is a good way to be open, sincere, genuine, enough to earn a townread and become obvtown; it is not part of becoming charismatic.)

It's a hell of a lot of effort though, and it requires a specific tone.
Accusing them? Backfires.
Insulting them? Backfires.
You have to be nice, gentle, kind, like a teacher, guiding students through their work. Put yourself into that role, of someone who is trying to teach people not by telling them the answers, but by letting them find the answers on their own, because answers found on their own stick much better and longer than answers you just hand them out.

Like I said, most of the time I don't bother, but the rare times I do, this is the process I use and I can tell you it works.

Nancy Drew 39
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Post Post #11  (ISO)  » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:25 pm

In post 9, Something_Smart wrote:
In post 0, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:If I was able to either push my reads or convince others, my town winrate, would be through the freaking roof!

It's not your fault if people refuse to listen to you. Stop caring so much about your winrate and instead focus on how well you played. If you were generally townread and you had good reads, you played well and should be happy about the game regardless of the result.

It's the not the only course of action, but it's the one I picked and I'm happier because of it :P


I don’t play to lose.

Thing with Nancy is we just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it.

(I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~ the worst

Ankamius
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Post Post #12  (ISO)  » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:27 pm

Mastina basically said what I wanted to say but a lot better than the mess I posted instead
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Nancy Drew 39
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Post Post #13  (ISO)  » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:29 pm

Spoiler:
In post 10, mastina wrote:The way I play nowadays, I'm often aiming deliberately to not be charismatic--I don't want people to follow me most of the time, because in spite of how hard I push my read, in spite of how many points I raise (and I wouldn't raise a point I didn't believe was a good one; every point I raise I feel is a valid one), I have doubts on whether my point (no matter how good the point may be) is right, and because of that, I have doubts as to whether my entire push is right.

I deliberately hide this, so it looks like I am pushing with absolute 100% certainty my target is scum, but it's a facade and underneath is the me that is less sure of the read. You can tell that these reads are less certain, because I am going out of my way to avoid trying to actually lynch my target; I will keep stating a person is scum, without really activating my charismatic side.

Because the actual key to charisma, is to know your audience and write things as close to their perspective as is possible. Use THEIR reasoning, THEIR process, even if it is alien to you, even if it is foreign and seems wildly off-base to you, and turn it around. Find the weaknesses in their opposing viewpoint, not from YOUR view, but from THEIR view, point out THEIR narrative's contradictions: "Okay, so you think that X means Y for Z. Why not for A?" Get them to flesh out why point A applies for person B, but not C, and then make your argument for why point A is better applied for person C, rather than person B.

In other words, you don't get progress by telling them their points are wrong; their reads are wrong. You get progress by telling them their points are right, but being misapplied; you get progress by telling them their reads are mostly right, but they went off-base when they made this mistake here, and you guide them through THEIR logic, THEIR reasoning, as to where they went wrong--not your own.

And you do this for every player you try to convince, while adding in your own thoughts as is necessary, but your own thoughts aren't so much for convincing others you're right so much as they are to convince others that you have a genuinely unique, original perspective with a town origin. (In other words, showing your own thoughts is a good way to be open, sincere, genuine, enough to earn a townread and become obvtown; it is not part of becoming charismatic.)

It's a hell of a lot of effort though, and it requires a specific tone.
Accusing them? Backfires.
Insulting them? Backfires.
You have to be nice, gentle, kind, like a teacher, guiding students through their work. Put yourself into that role, of someone who is trying to teach people not by telling them the answers, but by letting them find the answers on their own, because answers found on their own stick much better and longer than answers you just hand them out.

Like I said, most of the time I don't bother, but the rare times I do, this is the process I use and I can tell you it works.


Yeah, this is very similar to what Ank said.

Thing with Nancy is we just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it.

(I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~ the worst

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Post Post #14  (ISO)  » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:37 pm

In post 11, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:I don’t play to lose.

Well, one way to improve your charisma might be to not use strawmen... :shifty:
"I didn't have time to write a short post, so I wrote a long one instead."
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Post Post #15  (ISO)  » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:47 pm

Can you give a few examples of the posts you made where you were either developing or communicating your reads in those games? Specific examples might be better in terms of more focused advice.
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Post Post #16  (ISO)  » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:50 pm

In post 9, Something_Smart wrote:It's not your fault if people refuse to listen to you.

Of course it's your fault. Convincing other people is a necessary skill in this game. Good reads mean nothing if they aren't translated to lynches.

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Post Post #17  (ISO)  » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:52 pm

@mastina: no, it's not that complicated.

Nancy Drew 39
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Post Post #18  (ISO)  » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:02 pm

In post 14, Something_Smart wrote:
In post 11, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:I don’t play to lose.

Well, one way to improve your charisma might be to not use strawmen... :shifty:


What?

Thing with Nancy is we just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it.

(I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~ the worst

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Post Post #19  (ISO)  » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:04 pm

In post 14, Something_Smart wrote:
In post 11, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:I don’t play to lose.

Well, one way to improve your charisma might be to not use strawmen... :shifty:

In post 16, Persivul wrote:
In post 9, Something_Smart wrote:It's not your fault if people refuse to listen to you.

Of course it's your fault. Convincing other people is a necessary skill in this game. Good reads mean nothing if they aren't translated to lynches.


I think maybe, I should ignore SS’ advice on this topic? :shifty:

Thing with Nancy is we just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it.

(I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~ the worst

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Post Post #20  (ISO)  » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:20 pm

You just need to make fact-based cases.

Look at our last game together. Seriously, review it. You said I was your top scum read from the beginning. You put me at the bottom of your lists. And...that's pretty much it.

You needed to explain why you found me scummy. You didn't do that.

Similarly, Plotinus was your top town read, but he was lynched. You didn't really say why he was your top town read.

You said yourself that I was rude in that game. Yet, I pushed Plot, Plot pushed me, and Plot's the one who eventually died. That's because Plot didn't make a case on me until I taunted him for not doing so, and when he did, I was able to refute it. OTOH, I made a fact-based case against Plot. It wasn't charisma that got that done.

Your own intuition means very little to other people.

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Post Post #21  (ISO)  » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:36 pm

In post 18, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 14, Something_Smart wrote:
In post 11, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:I don’t play to lose.

Well, one way to improve your charisma might be to not use strawmen... :shifty:


What?

I just said don't treat winning as everything, that's not the same as "playing to lose" which is a term I've never heard before but it sounds equivalent to throwing. Mafia's a team game, if you lose it's not always your fault and it doesn't mean you did something wrong. If you try to do everything, all you're going to be is disappointed when you find out you can't.

But like I said, that's just what worked for me. Some people are naturally competitive and can't get away from the "winning is everything" mentality. If you're like that, then go ahead and ignore my advice because it's worthless for you. But if you are like that, mafia is probably not going to be a very fulfilling game for you.

To be honest, this discussion is a pretty good allegory for why convincing people is sometimes impossible. People value different things. No matter how eloquently you present it, your VCA case is never going to convince someone who doesn't believe in VCA. Your emotional argument is worth little to a logical player.
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Nancy Drew 39
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Post Post #22  (ISO)  » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:58 pm

In post 20, Persivul wrote:You just need to make fact-based cases.

Look at our last game together. Seriously, review it. You said I was your top scum read from the beginning. You put me at the bottom of your lists. And...that's pretty much it.

You needed to explain why you found me scummy. You didn't do that.

Similarly, Plotinus was your top town read, but he was lynched. You didn't really say why he was your top town read.

You said yourself that I was rude in that game. Yet, I pushed Plot, Plot pushed me, and Plot's the one who eventually died. That's because Plot didn't make a case on me until I taunted him for not doing so, and when he did, I was able to refute it. OTOH, I made a fact-based case against Plot. It wasn't charisma that got that done.

Your own intuition means very little to other people.


If I had had that slot from the getgo, things also might have turned out differently because I would have switched you with Tris over Plot, which Ruby did. I didn’t realize SS would be the N2 NK though.

Thing with Nancy is we just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it.

(I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~ the worst

Ankamius
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Post Post #23  (ISO)  » Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:27 pm

Persivul, I get my lynches without cases.
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Post Post #24  (ISO)  » Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:31 pm

I literally got a scum lynched once by responding to a case of scum not killing conftown without leaving a trace in a game where conftown were dropping like flies by essentially just saying IDGAF lynch them anyway.

Yeah I had a case on them before that, but the specific point I pointed out contradicted it entirely.

You don't necessarily need cases to lynch scum. If people aren't already going to listen to you, making cases is a complete waste of time and you need to use more subtle methods.

EDIT: Actually I will just put this here, cases are actually detrimental in a lot of ways because you allow scum to match their play to be consistent with what you are arguing against while muddying the case at the same time. Just making people aware that your scumread is playing a specific way that is scummy is a lot more likely to get people to independently realize where you are coming from, which is a lot stronger since now they understand the thought process behind the case rather than just the case itself.
Spice is not just a flavor, it's a way of life.
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"i guess its time to try and smoke a cig to help me poop" - Skygazer 2019

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