How do you develop charisma?

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How do you develop charisma?

Post Post #0 (isolation #0) » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:33 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

I am still furious that I just lost a recent game because town wouldn’t fucking listen to my reads. I had one scum nailed from the getgo but I couldn’t manage to convince town and then in LYLO, I couldn’t stop one of the remaining townies from mislynching my top townread.

And yet in another game that just ended, town either lynched/vigged three players that I correctly townread. This has happened to me more times than I care to remember. :cry:

This is seriously becoming like a extremely depressing broken record. It’s one thing to lose games because of bad reads but to lose games, when you’re reads are spot on, is totally disheartening. It almost makes me want to give up playing mafia altogether. :(

If I was able to either push my reads or convince others, my town winrate, would be through the freaking roof!
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
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Post Post #4 (isolation #1) » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:27 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 2, the worst wrote:I kinda think post/word count helps with being listened to

if you keep things pretty short sharp and shiny people tend to assume you know what you're talking about, whereas if you're more long worded people tend to be less likely to read it all

not saying I'm necessarily actually good at this ftr
I think I do that though and it obviously hasn’t helped too much.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #11 (isolation #2) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:25 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 9, Something_Smart wrote:
In post 0, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:If I was able to either push my reads or convince others, my town winrate, would be through the freaking roof!
It's not your fault if people refuse to listen to you. Stop caring so much about your winrate and instead focus on how well you played. If you were generally townread and you had good reads, you played well and should be happy about the game regardless of the result.

It's the not the only course of action, but it's the one I picked and I'm happier because of it :P
I don’t play to lose.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #13 (isolation #3) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:29 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

Spoiler:
In post 10, mastina wrote:The way I play nowadays, I'm often aiming deliberately to
not
be charismatic--I don't
want
people to follow me most of the time, because in spite of how hard I push my read, in spite of how many points I raise (and I wouldn't raise a point I didn't believe was a good one; every point I raise I feel is a valid one), I have doubts on whether my point (no matter how good the point may be) is
right
, and because of that, I have doubts as to whether my entire push is right.

I deliberately hide this, so it looks like I am pushing with absolute 100% certainty my target is scum, but it's a facade and underneath is the me that is less sure of the read. You can tell that these reads are less certain, because I am going out of my way to avoid trying to actually lynch my target; I will keep stating a person is scum, without really activating my charismatic side.

Because the
actual
key to charisma, is to know your audience and write things as close to their perspective as is possible. Use THEIR reasoning, THEIR process, even if it is alien to you, even if it is foreign and seems wildly off-base to you, and turn it around. Find the weaknesses in their opposing viewpoint, not from YOUR view, but from THEIR view, point out THEIR narrative's contradictions: "Okay, so you think that X means Y for Z. Why not for A?" Get them to flesh out why point A applies for person B, but not C, and then make your argument for why point A is
better
applied for person C, rather than person B.

In other words, you don't get progress by telling them their points are wrong; their reads are wrong. You get progress by telling them their points are right, but being misapplied; you get progress by telling them their reads are mostly right, but they went off-base when they made this mistake here, and you guide them through THEIR logic, THEIR reasoning, as to where they went wrong--not your own.

And you do this for every player you try to convince, while adding in your own thoughts as is necessary, but your own thoughts aren't so much for convincing others you're right so much as they are to convince others that you have a genuinely unique, original perspective with a town origin. (In other words, showing your own thoughts is a good way to be open, sincere, genuine, enough to earn a townread and become obvtown; it is not part of becoming charismatic.)

It's a hell of a lot of effort though, and it requires a specific tone.
Accusing them? Backfires.
Insulting them? Backfires.
You have to be nice, gentle, kind, like a teacher, guiding students through their work. Put yourself into that role, of someone who is trying to teach people not by telling them the answers, but by letting them find the answers on their own, because answers found on their own stick much better and longer than answers you just hand them out.

Like I said, most of the time I don't bother, but the rare times I do, this is the process I use and I can tell you it works.


Yeah, this is very similar to what Ank said.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #18 (isolation #4) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:02 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 14, Something_Smart wrote:
In post 11, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:I don’t play to lose.
Well, one way to improve your charisma might be to not use strawmen... :shifty:
What?
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #19 (isolation #5) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:04 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 14, Something_Smart wrote:
In post 11, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:I don’t play to lose.
Well, one way to improve your charisma might be to not use strawmen... :shifty:
In post 16, Persivul wrote:
In post 9, Something_Smart wrote:It's not your fault if people refuse to listen to you.
Of course it's your fault. Convincing other people is a necessary skill in this game. Good reads mean nothing if they aren't translated to lynches.
I think maybe, I should ignore SS’ advice on this topic? :shifty:
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #22 (isolation #6) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:58 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 20, Persivul wrote:You just need to make fact-based cases.

Look at our last game together. Seriously, review it. You said I was your top scum read from the beginning. You put me at the bottom of your lists. And...that's pretty much it.

You needed to explain
why
you found me scummy. You didn't do that.

Similarly, Plotinus was your top town read, but he was lynched. You didn't really say
why
he was your top town read.

You said yourself that I was rude in that game. Yet, I pushed Plot, Plot pushed me, and Plot's the one who eventually died. That's because Plot didn't make a case on me until I taunted him for not doing so, and when he did, I was able to refute it. OTOH, I made a fact-based case against Plot. It wasn't charisma that got that done.

Your own intuition means very little to other people.
If I had had that slot from the getgo, things also might have turned out differently because I would have switched you with Tris over Plot, which Ruby did. I didn’t realize SS would be the N2 NK though.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #26 (isolation #7) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:47 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 24, Ankamius wrote:I literally got a scum lynched once by responding to a case of scum not killing conftown without leaving a trace in a game where conftown were dropping like flies by essentially just saying IDGAF lynch them anyway.

Yeah I had a case on them before that, but the specific point I pointed out contradicted it entirely.

You don't necessarily need cases to lynch scum. If people aren't already going to listen to you, making cases is a complete waste of time and you need to use more subtle methods.

EDIT: Actually I will just put this here, cases are actually detrimental in a lot of ways because you allow scum to match their play to be consistent with what you are arguing against while muddying the case at the same time. Just making people aware that your scumread is playing a specific way that is scummy is a lot more likely to get people to independently realize where you are coming from, which is a lot stronger since now they understand the thought process behind the case rather than just the case itself.
Me is confused here?
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #29 (isolation #8) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:51 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 28, Ankamius wrote:What specifically is confusing you there, I can reword it.
How do you persuade without cases?
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #35 (isolation #9) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:15 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

@mhsmith0,

I think mechanics - not being able to talk about whomever you had a room with, really hurt, so if you could find a game of mine to critique without those specific mechanics, it would be more helpful. I suggest either/both Starcraft Mafia, 1 and 2. Thanks. :)
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #36 (isolation #10) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:21 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 32, Ankamius wrote:
In post 31, mhsmith0 wrote:Not sure what ank answer will be, but my advice would instead be to work on your cases and work on communicating clearly before trying to sidestep the work of making cases and actually explaining why someone is scum (or, for that matter, why someone is town). Your reads and read bases, as presented, in that game mainly shouldn't have been sheeped. That you were correct about persivul being a wolf I don't think changes the answer. just my $0.02 though *shrugs*
One thing I will say is that it's easier to get lynches through casing if you are good at communicating your thoughts through words effectively.

Nancy is one of those people that has a very hard time with that from my experience, which is why she usually doesn't get sheeped or even taken seriously despite being right.

That requires sidestepping I think, because even fixing that problem directly would require a major mindset shift either way since her brain is wired in a way to be less skilled at it than other people. Even with a lot of effort, I still think the result would be below what would be enough to make it worth that effort.
That sounds really depressing, I don’t think my communication is anywhere near that bad?

Maybe, my rep for having superior reads, will eventually catch up with me, as brainbomb noticed. \_0_/

:(
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #38 (isolation #11) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:07 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 37, mhsmith0 wrote:
In post 35, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:@mhsmith0,

I think mechanics - not being able to talk about whomever you had a room with, really hurt, so if you could find a game of mine to critique without those specific mechanics, it would be more helpful. I suggest either/both Starcraft Mafia, 1 and 2. Thanks. :)
My 30 second advice re the starcraft games is to post less. In both you (including your hydra buddy, and idk who posted more) were the #1 poster, and it's easy for the good points you want to make to be drowned out in the noise. I cannot speak for the people in the game, but I don't think it's tremendously unusual to substantially ignore whoever is the #1 poster in the game, particularly if there's a substantial amount of posts that aren't actively useful (it's 30 seconds, so I can't say what % of posts were actively useful, but at any rate, a posting rate of >20 per day is on the high side, and in particular was on the high side compared to the other players in the game).

I also think that large themes seem to be particularly poor examples of town play in general, and thread bloat is almost certainly a big part of that story. IMO the standard that is required to have people care about what you have to say is even higher in those sorts of games, given that there's just such a massive amount of noise that goes up against the actual signal of useful info. I'd probably tend not to overweigh those kinds of setups too much in terms of how people engage you, though if there are particular pushes you made or things you said that you thought deserved more care and attention I'd be happy to look into them. Just much harder to try and sift from a >500 post iso and figure out what things in particular you feel like you should have gotten more traction on.
Well, those are the best examples of what I’m talking about. *shrug*.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #43 (isolation #12) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:23 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 41, Firebringer wrote:
In post 36, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 32, Ankamius wrote:
In post 31, mhsmith0 wrote:Not sure what ank answer will be, but my advice would instead be to work on your cases and work on communicating clearly before trying to sidestep the work of making cases and actually explaining why someone is scum (or, for that matter, why someone is town). Your reads and read bases, as presented, in that game mainly shouldn't have been sheeped. That you were correct about persivul being a wolf I don't think changes the answer. just my $0.02 though *shrugs*
One thing I will say is that it's easier to get lynches through casing if you are good at communicating your thoughts through words effectively.

Nancy is one of those people that has a very hard time with that from my experience, which is why she usually doesn't get sheeped or even taken seriously despite being right.

That requires sidestepping I think, because even fixing that problem directly would require a major mindset shift either way since her brain is wired in a way to be less skilled at it than other people. Even with a lot of effort, I still think the result would be below what would be enough to make it worth that effort.
That sounds really depressing, I don’t think my communication is anywhere near that bad?

Maybe, my rep for having superior reads, will eventually catch up with me, as brainbomb noticed. \_0_/

:(
Unlikely.
Literally everyone thinks they have superior reads.
But some people - me - actually does and you’re completely missing the point of this thread.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #46 (isolation #13) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:46 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 44, Firebringer wrote:And that kind of proves the point of you being a bad communicator tbh.
Your post wasn’t helpful to the topic. It isn’t about the accuracy of my reads, it’s about selling them.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #49 (isolation #14) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:47 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 47, Firebringer wrote:I can't hear what ur saying Ankamius, are you saying that Hitler was right? Because that is fucking gross and you should be ashamed.
Are you just going to troll this thread? :facepalm:
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #53 (isolation #15) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:52 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 51, Ankamius wrote:Btw not being able to sell your reads and becoming known for having good reads is the worst case scenario

It means you end up dying for no reason a lot
Great! I’m doomed then. :lol:
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #59 (isolation #16) » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:54 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 58, Persivul wrote:Again, you don't need charisma to get lynches. But if yo're interested in developing charisma, read
How to Win Friends and Influence People
. It's still the best on the subject. Some of the references are dated, but the methodology is sound.
I found that having great reads, is far less important than conviction.

Which isn’t easy if you’re unsure but players don’t often know who to vote for and will gladly sheep a superconfident player.

The problem is not to do it, unless you’re absolutely convinced you’re right, or it will backfire on you. I’m always scared of the 0.01% chance I could be wrong about a scumread, which is why I’m far more persuasive harddefending a strong townread. However, you need to be established as obvtown first, because I did have both conviction and great arguments in MBoS but I wasn’t being widely obvtown read in that game, so nothing I said mattered. I was almost mechanically 98% confitown but because Mastina successfully framed my slot as her partner, no one listened.

So

1) be obvtown read

2) have conviction

3) make logical cases


This is how RC and Wisdom do it. Yes charisma, seals the deal but if the first two don’t exist, it doesn’t matter.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #61 (isolation #17) » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:26 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 60, Ankamius wrote:Wisdom doesn't case
No, not like Mastina does but he often uses mechanics to convince others.

And most people are happy to sheep a confident player, because it takes the heat off them.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #63 (isolation #18) » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:54 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

Yes, and you’re ignoring that I
only
hammered STW due to Varsoon fakeclaim. I would have never lynched them otherwise. Also, I was right about locktowning Creature/Taly, and townreading Kokichi.

In Sukmas, I correctly had sheep, lime and Angel as town and had a strong gutread on SB scum but you aren’t referencing my best games , so your criticism of my reads accuracy rate is inaccurate.

I correctly identified Colin as last scum in Lovesick, beeboy and kane as scum in (can’t remember the game but it had Zara as RPS backup), moth in the nightless game. I could go on and on but you unknowingly misreping my reads accuracy rate isn’t what this thread is about but I’m not about to let stand a false assesment based on incomplete information, stand.

So, ISO me in SC1. I’d like to here your take on that.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #69 (isolation #19) » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:52 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 66, Firebringer wrote:So Nancy Drew, I am going to try to be as charismatic as possible with this post. Be patient I have -5 in charisma stat

So I think your original goal here as you said it is to sell your reads. What I would say is you want to convince people to sheep your reads. Because you see yourself as correct. I am not gonna tell you are wrong in your read record, because I think that is irrelevant to any point of how to be more charismatic and thus doesn’t matter for how to get what you want here.

So given that is your goal. People here have laid out a few different things to consider on how they think you would be more convincing. I am unsure about if that is what advice you want because you haven’t seemed to consider them a lot. I see a lot of posts that gets you off the goal that you want. I get why you would lose focus, someone says you play bad or something easy to lose focus on what you are trying to do when you are originally.

Then you also went into your opinions on what is important in Charisma. You gave your opinions on Charisma in a way in which I thought “Well wait. If you have these opinions, why are you asking how to be more charismatic. Are you actually seeking to be more charismatic if you already have these thoughts? Do you think you could be missing something here? Do you think theres a missing ingredient you are not getting?”

So I am confused and wondering if you have those opinions on what is charisma and you are just voicing these out in almost like talking to yourself in the shower to see how it sounds. Like I am unsure what you learned here from others and what you wanted from this because I am not seeing you gaining anything here in a way to help improve anything you didn’t already think beforehand.

Do you see yourself as rejecting the thoughts of the players too fast without thought? Or have you gotten closer to your goal so far in your approach?


I want to help you here but I am really unsure what capacity I am useful for here cause me is confused what you want.
I lack confidence in pushing my reads, because as Ank keeps saying, I suck at explaining them. Some are based on logic and facts and others more on gut, tone and intuition. In most cases, I have no trouble connecting the dots in my head but often have trouble explaining satisfactorily, how I got there.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #70 (isolation #20) » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:55 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 68, Ankamius wrote:
In post 67, Irrelephant11 wrote:--> as a follow up to this last point, I think it's always a powerful move to identify a townie with good reads, and amplify their reads in the places you agree - more powerful than trying to bring your own readslist to the forefront of the conversation.
100% this

I'd argue this is the single best way to get people to trust you or at least be a lot more hesitant to discount what you have to say entirely when they otherwise might
@Irrelephant, in SC 2, I knew Taly was town but couldn’t explain how I got there, so how would I be able to do this, when I still can’t explain how I knew this?
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #72 (isolation #21) » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:05 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 71, Irrelephant11 wrote:If I were in that situation, I'd say something like: "I can't explain why in logical terms, but I feel EXTREMELY strongly that this person is town. Here are a few of the posts that made me feel this way: [quotes in spoiler]. @another-person-I think-is-town, are you seeing what I'm seeing?"
Okay, thanks, I’ll try that in the future.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #82 (isolation #22) » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:37 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 73, Persivul wrote:
In post 63, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:your criticism of my reads accuracy rate is inaccurate.
You don't know what your reads accuracy rate is. If you actually study it honestly, you'll probably find it's not as good as you think. It's not an easy game.
No, it’s actually better. :)
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #83 (isolation #23) » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:38 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 74, RadiantCowbells wrote:Mafia is easy just ask yourself

Who would RadiantCowbells be voting in this situation

Then you vote that person
How would I know that, unless you’re in the same game.? :lol:
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #84 (isolation #24) » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:43 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 77, mastina wrote:
In post 12, Ankamius wrote:Mastina basically said what I wanted to say but a lot better than the mess I posted instead
And Firebringer one-upped me and said what I said only in much, much better detail, basically. Go listen to what he said!
Yeah, it’s a great post. I rely on both tone and logic in my reads and therefore, make both analytical and emotion-based arguments.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #92 (isolation #25) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:42 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 91, RadiantCowbells wrote:
In post 83, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 74, RadiantCowbells wrote:Mafia is easy just ask yourself

Who would RadiantCowbells be voting in this situation

Then you vote that person
How would I know that, unless you’re in the same game.? :lol:
Why would you want to play a mafia game without me
:lol:

I prefer to hydra with you because you greatly complement my weaknesses, re: YGM. We mindmeld on reads and you help push them through.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #102 (isolation #26) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:14 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 100, Ankamius wrote:
In post 98, BNL wrote:Is the argument against cases “you give something the scum can argue against”?

Because that’s total BS
That's pretty much it yes lol

Give scum an inch and they will take a lot more than an inch

Plus if you don't get that lynch immediately, they have the advantage of knowing the pitfalls to avoid so that people continue not suspecting them.

It really is a lot more trouble than it's worth
So, you think town shouldn’t make scum cases? So how do you push your scumreads then?
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #105 (isolation #27) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:28 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 101, Ankamius wrote:Explaining townreads is a lot more effective because scum can't really argue against them directly if they don't already have a good angle of attack on them
One way I’ve successfully caught scum, is due to scumreading obvtown for pretty much specious reasoning. Like scum’s wet dream is lots of lynchbaity town.

Like in theRoomOdds, I didn’t necessarily scumread Clem but he made pretty much 0 effort to engage me in our private room, so I unfortunately had no basis, to either think he was a mislynch or argue against it. I actually still double down on VCA never lies, I just did it completely wrong.

Gamma had 4 votes, so when scum!Flavor put down a vote on his scumpal, it didn’t matter, since at that point, Gamma was getting lynched regardless, but I should have townlocked SS for his Gamma vote, since his vote enabled the town deflector mechanic.

So, both SS and Dunn, were mechanically close to being confirmed town. I also should have realized that scum wouldn’t kill Plot - who Dunn was pushing or Dunn and protected SS and switched him with Persival, since I was still tr Flavor.

But had I had that slot n1, I would have switched Tris with Persival and then I might have realized that Flavor had to be his buddy? I hope I would have, anyway. \_0_/
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #106 (isolation #28) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:30 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 103, RadiantCowbells wrote:be the cutest player in the table and have everyone wrapped around your finger

***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #111 (isolation #29) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:09 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 108, Ankamius wrote:Idk what to tell you Bulletnlynchproof

Every single strong town game I've ever played was strong because I was able to shield mislynch bait until people eventually compromised or realized that my scumreads were scum

And scum couldn't do jack shit about it

Meanwhile, every time I attack my scumreads directly, it never ever works. Scum have a lot more leeway to counter you when you attack them directly. Scum look a lot more silly and suspicious countering a claim that their mislynch target is town.
Yes, because that’s usually how scum gets caught, because they can’t have valid arguments like town do because they’re obviously really not trying to sort anyone.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #112 (isolation #30) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:12 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 110, Ankamius wrote:Actually I am pretty certain that most of the town wins I've seen that weren't complete flukes were because town was finding each other as town more than people just having correct scumreads.
I think making solid townblocks, makes it difficult for scum to push. Like that’s how I knew TPFKAP was scum in Labrynth. He kept spamming useless alrarmist WIFOM to interfere with town solving.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #121 (isolation #31) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:25 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 117, Buki wrote:I think that the problem isn't casing itself

it's how you case

the best case is one where you go for some key points that scum can hardly defend themselves against. That way you're not only not letting them defend themselves properly, but convincing other people that they're scum.

I've learned by experience that making long cases or even medium sized ones doesn't work. Scum will find the weakest arguments and only focus on them, and it'll be so much arguing that people will stop paying attention to what's being argued/discussed. It needs to be a bit short and a lot reasonable/convincing.

I don't think the solution is to simply not explain your scum read though, if you do that you're not only having worse odds of lynching your target, but you're as well making other townies have a harder time reading you.

Good and original scum reads are harder ti fake than town reads. I've hardly see someone make a perceptive/very original scum read and end up flipping scum. They're more likely town by my experience.
Well yes, because scum knows they’re town, unless either scum has a traitor/there’s an SK/it’s multiball, scum can make the best cases on their buddies, for the exact same reason town does. This is also why the vast majority of players can be toneread. Not all but most. Realizing this often help with meta. If a player can be read by tone. you play enough games with them, you will become an expert on reading them. There’s a good reason Sakura said that the most difficult thing for her to do as scum, is make reads.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #123 (isolation #32) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:28 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 119, mastina wrote:
In post 110, Ankamius wrote:Actually I am pretty certain that most of the town wins I've seen that weren't complete flukes were because town was finding each other as town more than people just having correct scumreads.
Can vouch for that.

Finding town > finding scum, 100% of the time.

Find town, defend town, and scum run out of options.
In post 120, RadiantCowbells wrote:its a lot easier to find scum when you have a bunch of lock townreads
I am much better and more accurate at making townreads but in almost every damn game I’m in, someone will scumread me for not having any strong scumreads on D1. *shrug*
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #126 (isolation #33) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:31 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 122, Ankamius wrote:
In post 117, Buki wrote:I think that the problem isn't casing itself

it's how you case

the best case is one where you go for some key points that scum can hardly defend themselves against. That way you're not only not letting them defend themselves properly, but convincing other people that they're scum.

I've learned by experience that making long cases or even medium sized ones doesn't work. Scum will find the weakest arguments and only focus on them, and it'll be so much arguing that people will stop paying attention to what's being argued/discussed. It needs to be a bit short and a lot reasonable/convincing.

I don't think the solution is to simply not explain your scum read though, if you do that you're not only having worse odds of lynching your target, but you're as well making other townies have a harder time reading you.

Good and original scum reads are harder ti fake than town reads. I've hardly see someone make a perceptive/very original scum read and end up flipping scum. They're more likely town by my experience.
In post 118, Buki wrote:Also if you don't explain your scum read and you're wrong (what is very likely to happen) you'll be stuck there when you could argue it out and see what people bring to the table.

and also, it's considerably important to see how the rest of players react to the accusations/case, it's likely AI.
I think we have a miscommunication here somewhere?

you're essentially agreeing with me, but I'm not saying to avoid going into your reads; I just believe that going into more than a basic overview of your scumreads is unnecessary and detrimental, while going into your townreads is a lot more effective both short term and long term.
The main problem as I see it, is most people don’t take into account individual differences in playstyle and that is one of the most common reason for mislynching.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #127 (isolation #34) » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:33 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 125, RadiantCowbells wrote:they do if you can lynch scum d1
Which I did with scum!Moth in some MU nightless game. His opening post was a textbook scumclaim.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #135 (isolation #35) » Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:43 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 131, Persivul wrote:
In post 99, Wisdom wrote:Is it though
I enjoy them being unable to defend themselves because I've given them no reasoning
Nancy doesn't give reasoning, and it's not working for her.
In post 134, Persivul wrote:
In post 132, Wisdom wrote:Nancy does give reasoning
Not when I played with her.
That isn’t my typical game but you’re wrong even in that game. Have you read Plot’s and my room yet?
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #136 (isolation #36) » Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:44 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 133, Boonskiies wrote:
In post 105, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 101, Ankamius wrote:Explaining townreads is a lot more effective because scum can't really argue against them directly if they don't already have a good angle of attack on them
One way I’ve successfully caught scum, is due to scumreading obvtown for pretty much specious reasoning. Like scum’s wet dream is lots of lynchbaity town.

Like in theRoomOdds, I didn’t necessarily scumread Clem but he made pretty much 0 effort to engage me in our private room, so I unfortunately had no basis, to either think he was a mislynch or argue against it. I actually still double down on VCA never lies, I just did it completely wrong.

Gamma had 4 votes, so when scum!Flavor put down a vote on his scumpal, it didn’t matter, since at that point, Gamma was getting lynched regardless, but I should have townlocked SS for his Gamma vote, since his vote enabled the town deflector mechanic.

So, both SS and Dunn, were mechanically close to being confirmed town. I also should have realized that scum wouldn’t kill Plot - who Dunn was pushing or Dunn and protected SS and switched him with Persival, since I was still tr Flavor.

But had I had that slot n1, I would have switched Tris with Persival and then I might have realized that Flavor had to be his buddy? I hope I would have, anyway. \_0_/
If you were in the game Day 1, though, the game would have been entirely different. I would have played up to the fact you were in the game. Kills night have been different, gameplay might have been different. I’d probably have gotten a room with you Day 1 over Plotinus, and that changes the entire landscape.
+1

I completely agree with this. I also would have switched Tris for Persivul instead of RR switching Plot with Clem.
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We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #138 (isolation #37) » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:12 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 137, Persivul wrote:
In post 135, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:That isn’t my typical game but you’re wrong even in that game. Have you read Plot’s and my room yet?
No. I'm talking about the main thread. You didn't give much in the way of reasons there.
I also didn’t want to be NK’d. Sometimes, I actually play PR well. Unlike in SC 2, where I couldn’t help myself. :facepalm:
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Post Post #140 (isolation #38) » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:50 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 139, Auro wrote:I don't think it's useful to play less towny / more scummy intentionally as a PR. I'd just play PR as though I was town.
No not scummy, I was just less verbose than I usually am and also because I was somewhat confused about the mechanic and being a replace in.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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Nancy Drew 39
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Post Post #142 (isolation #39) » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:27 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

In post 141, Morality wrote:
In post 139, Auro wrote:I don't think it's useful to play less towny / more scummy intentionally as a PR. I'd just play PR as though I was town.
If I’m Vanilla, I just claim investigative, and if I’m anything else, I claim multiple times.

I’m the worst, and not the ducky kind.
Why would you claim investigative as vanilla?
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
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