BooneyToonz Extravaganza: LAST NIGHT TOMORROW


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Post Post #8900 (ISO) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:11 pm

Post by DrewVa »

Given that there's been a lot of noise in thread I'm making my wallpost catchup and trying to make it as digestible as possible.

Spoiler: DVa on the 1v1
In post 8738, DrewVa wrote:
In post 8733, Xtoxm wrote:BEF walking into a 1v1 that conf deaths him within 2 days seems less likely to come from scum
As Jingle observed, it's safe to say that BEF was not aware he was walking into a mechanical 1v1 as either alignment -- if he was town he would have claimed as soon as our slot claimed Town Grifter (referred to by everyone as 'activate' lately), if he was scum it makes little sense for him to create this 1v1.

I have been trying to eliminate the possibility that this is somehow an NAR issue and that it's T/T, given BEF struck me as very townie in the way he claimed, however most options still come back to "one of the two has to be lying." If the sticky fruit could travel to multiple people in one night, that would mean he was lying about his role card afaik.

I have confirmed from Boon that profii could in fact target PP with sticky fruit and Creature with Loud the same night without multitasking, so there's no convenient scumclaim there that would settle this.

It would help if Creature actually confirmed whether or not he got the loud so that we could confirm that theory 2 is a real possibility.

Theory 1: Profii sent the sticky fruit to TLK and lied about it to implicate TLK and create a very confusing mechanical quasi 1v1 d2. Weird play as scum.

Theory 2: BEF sent the sticky fruit to Profii n1, then had S_S jail Profii n2, while sending the sticky fruit to TLK, thus generating a mechanical 1v1 between the supersaint and the variant role inventor.

Theory 3: There is some other explanation.

The problem with theory 3 is that, if the sticky fruit can only travel to one person each night as the role card on page 1 suggests, then I don't see how BEF is not lying about his rolecard for it to somehow end up at TLK. If BEF is a 'variant sticky fruit vendor' then he is lying about being a normal sticky fruit vendor.

Theory 4: Mod/human error.

No idea how to play around this, but we did get TLK to confirm his statements multiple times, and I feel like if Boon had actually made a mistake he would have said so real life weeks ago. I will say that I have asked the duck a couple questions about this, and his answers have on one key point actually differed from Boon's, so I don't think the mechanics of everything here is super obvious. (The duck was not aware that Profii could vend the sticky fruit to one person and still target creature with a separate night action without multitasking; boon said he could. Still not enough to make me think mod error, though, given boon's response matches profii's description of his choices at night.)

My top priority since this began has been eliminating the possibilty that Profii and BEF are both T/T and that this is not actually a true mechanical 1v1, but so far I see now way that is possible given the information we have at hand.

I have tried to eliminate the following risks:
-One of the three variant/boon roles is not a variant/boon role. As far as I can tell, all three must be variant/boon roles so a redirector cannot exist.

-The sticky fruit did not act as we expected. I don't see how this is possible; if the sticky fruit travels to each person who is targeting someone else, then it should have ended up on PenguinPower night 1. Profii has confirmed he still had the sticky fruit night 2.

-BEF did not understand his role. We have talked to BEF about his role at length at this point and I don't see how this is a possibility.

I keep trying to find something that makes this not a 1v1 and I keep coming up short. This is leaving me to conclude that either Theory 1 or Theory 2 is the most likely to be the case and this is an actual 1v1.

-d


tl;dr:
BEF vs profii looks like a real 1v1 that we should resolve with a flip.


Spoiler: DVa on who is the better lynch between profii and BEF
In post 8817, DrewVa wrote:
In post 8738, DrewVa wrote:, while sending the sticky fruit to TLK, thus generating a mechanical 1v1 between the supersaint and the variant role inventor.
in this theory, someone, probably S_S, came up with the idea to create a mechanical cross-claim between two town, by using the jailkeep to create wifom in addition to BEF's role, which here would presumably be an every-night sticky fruit vendor.

So BEF n1 -- fruits profii
BEF n2 -- fruit sTLK
BEF n3 -- Maybe Elsa (if Elsa is scum BP)?
BEF n4 -- maybe Jingle (if Jingle is not town commuter)?

like bearing in mind how many people have either acted like commuters, have some sort of ascetic modifier, or have had a wide range of actions fail on them, it is not impossible that a scum sticky fruit vendor has in fact been vending sticky fruit to scum.

This is the line of reasoning I believe that Jingle was following (which would imply perhaps that Jingle is actually a town commuter perhaps), that is, that scum sticky fruit vendor would make sense in a setup where there are so many loyalized actions, where players like Profii can create loyalized visitors, etc. etc. From a setup/design perspective, BEF's role sounds like a scum counter to Profii's role, although that in and of itself should not convince anyone, just something I noticed.

Additionally, there is an argument to be made that the sticky fruit vendor is at best a kind of town miller. It is a role that, unless modified with a pro-town modifier like loyal, is explicitly anti-utility, given town's need to create mechanical clears through loyal/disloyal actions.

When we are thinking about BEF's play, another question emerges: BEF says he vended to profii n1 because he was worried he would die and he wanted to use it. But, BEF had entered a boonus room where he saw that he could get a loyal modifier, potentially. This being the case, why would he not hold his sticky fruit shot and ask to be gifted a loyal modifier, which would in effect turn his negative utility action for town (vending sticky fruit) into a pro-town action?

So there is at least some merit to Jingle's argument that BEF may be a useful lynch to eliminate wifom regardless of role, ESPECIALLY if we do conclude that this is a true mechanical 1v1 between Profii and BEF. Given Creature's testimony that he has not been made loud, this reinforces the evidence pointing toward a true mechanical 1v1.

For BEF scum there are:
-Arguments from setup spec (sticky fruit vendor seems like a pro-scum role)
-Arguments from play (pushing the dayrep theory, although actually there was one little part of that I didn't hate, but he's way over-emphasized it)
-Arguments for eliminating wifom (if we are wrong, profii should be caught scum, and at least we would know there are not additional sticky fruit floating around the setup, eliminating the strength of our clears)

For BEF town though there are:
-Arguments from tone (his frustration with me in particular in certain respects could easily come from town)
-Arguments from motive (it's not clear why he claimed in the way he did today as scum; and if he did, it may have been a mistake)

vs.

For Profii scum there is:
-Arguments from presence (I feel like profii usually has a bit more presence in the thread as town)

For Profii town there is:
-Arguments from pro-town actions and attentiveness (Profii made PP loyal, because profii believed that PP was a fruit vendor. This suggests profii was actively thinking about how to use his role in a pro-town way from very early on in the game)
-Arguments from tone (Profii has seemed pretty genuinely confused by today's discussion)
-Arguments from point of view (Profii was aware that he could vend a sticky fruit and use a night action at the same time, which is not something I would have thought was possible, but is possible--him knowing this increases the plausibility at least that he did intend to actually send the sticky fruit to a different target than his night action)

Given I believe there are some arguments on each side, this also raises another question:
Should town resolve this 1v1 today? We have multiple loyal/disloyal actions, etc. And here we might consider Jingle's argument -- if we're wrong about BEF, we will have significantly more wifom in regard to proving night actions. Even a green flip on BEF as a mislynch is not explicitly bad for the town in terms of helping us solve the game and create the strongest pro-town endgame.

While N&M may not be keen on the idea, my preference would be for him to be leashed to PenguinPower, to ensure that Penguin gets his fruit off tonight and is alive tomorrow.

-d


tl;dr:
In post 8818, DrewVa wrote:
Given all the available evidence, testimony, and the nature of the setup, I support a BEF lynch today.


-d
You: if that's the case, why hasn't your slot already voted to end day?

answer:
In post 8827, DrewVa wrote:[part of this post shortened]
there are some outstanding questions for profii:

-What was his reasoning in choosing to use his ascetic shot at all? Why would he make Una ascetic? How was that a pro-town decision?
-Why did he not use his neighborhood shot last night? Wouldn't he want to prove that the shot was real, given that it was given to him by scum?
-Why has he not been more forthcoming about the timing of his neighborhood with Nero, given the timing of Nero's neighborhood shot is significant for understanding who possibly fed scum +1 charges n1?

[...] I'm not in a rush to end the day before profii addresses these points if people do want to advance him as the lynch for today.

-d
In short, I'd like to confirm that we have a majority on BEF, and I'd like profii to answer a few last questions. After that, I am ready for a flip on BEF.

-d
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Post Post #8901 (ISO) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:22 pm

Post by Nev and Max »

We will vote for BEF with the understanding that if he flips town we, without question, lynch profii the next day.
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Post Post #8902 (ISO) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:07 pm

Post by Gamma Emerald »

In post 8692, Nev and Max wrote:
In post 8691, Gamma Emerald wrote:I know I have nothing that would help rn
I feel like at this point refusing to give info means that you have something to hide, or that you'd rather people not know. We've already almost have a full claim, you're likely not a better pr than we have, so maybe it's not fully your decision in not claiming anymore.

Tell me what neagtive utility you're trying to avoid and I'll let it go. And don't give me the "trying to draw a nk by making it seem like you were something special" excuse.
Remaining actions I want to not be known. I'll claim after I've used mine, but I'm concerned about it being known rn.
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Post Post #8903 (ISO) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:14 pm

Post by Gamma Emerald »

In post 8740, Xtoxm wrote:i have ran through the possibilities too
either someone is lying in you/bef/profii
or tlk thought normal fruit and sticky fruit were the same thing
but he was asked repeatedly and he said sticky fruit
so i think we have to go with it
I feel like newbie error by TLK could still be possible, I've seen people knowingly make errors after being made aware of the error. Someone was one corrected on the difference between cop and role cop but continued to call themselves cop incorrectly. So fuck ups happen.
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Post Post #8904 (ISO) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:17 pm

Post by Gamma Emerald »

In post 8755, DrewVa wrote:
In post 8718, davesaz wrote:On mobile. Drewva your activate is day. What is your night ability?
Profii you have both inventor and neighborizer. Isn't that a joat? If not then how do you have two roles?
In post 8719, DrewVa wrote:We have no night ability

-d
We don’t, we won N1 and picked 1-shot vig.

N3 we won and gifted SS with loud.
It shouldn't impact this but I want to ask it.
@Boon: is it possible to keep your +1 and gift your other winnings or vice versa? Or do you have to keep both or gift both?
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Post Post #8905 (ISO) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:17 pm

Post by DrewVa »

In post 8904, Gamma Emerald wrote:is it possible to keep your +1 and gift your other winnings or vice versa?
it's not, we asked

-d
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Post Post #8906 (ISO) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:18 pm

Post by Jingle »

You can't. I asked N3 when I replaced in.
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Post Post #8907 (ISO) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:19 pm

Post by DrewVa »

In post 8903, Gamma Emerald wrote:I feel like newbie error by TLK could still be possible, I've seen people knowingly make errors after being made aware of the error. Someone was one corrected on the difference between cop and role cop but continued to call themselves cop incorrectly. So fuck ups happen.
I don't know how much of this game we can play around the risk of a town-flipped player gamethrowing. He didn't seem that bad so I feel like this particular risk is being overstated.

-d
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Post Post #8908 (ISO) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:19 pm

Post by Jingle »

Or rather, I attempted to give weak and the +1 to two separate people and Boon was mean and said no.
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Post Post #8909 (ISO) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:40 pm

Post by davesaz »

In post 8905, DrewVa wrote:
In post 8904, Gamma Emerald wrote:is it possible to keep your +1 and gift your other winnings or vice versa?
it's not, we asked

-d
In post 8906, Jingle wrote:You can't. I asked N3 when I replaced in.
Confirm.
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Post Post #8910 (ISO) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:44 pm

Post by Gamma Emerald »

In post 8905, DrewVa wrote:
In post 8904, Gamma Emerald wrote:is it possible to keep your +1 and gift your other winnings or vice versa?
it's not, we asked

-d
In post 8906, Jingle wrote:You can't. I asked N3 when I replaced in.
Thanks
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Post Post #8911 (ISO) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:45 pm

Post by Gamma Emerald »

In post 8908, Jingle wrote:Or rather, I attempted to give weak and the +1 to two separate people and Boon was mean and said no.
That's not exactly what I asked but with two others saying the same thing I don't think it matters
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Post Post #8912 (ISO) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:45 pm

Post by davesaz »

@Profii

I think I've seen claims of both inventor and neighborize actions from you. Does that mean you're a JOAT? If not how do you have two actions when normal roles are singletons?

I'm on BEF. I would like to get this answer from Profii before end of day, and I'd like town to pay attention to the question and answer too. If it has been answered and I missed it, kindly point the way. ;)
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Post Post #8913 (ISO) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:48 pm

Post by Formerfish »

In post 8912, davesaz wrote:
@Profii

I think I've seen claims of both inventor and neighborize actions from you. Does that mean you're a JOAT? If not how do you have two actions when normal roles are singletons?

I'm on BEF. I would like to get this answer from Profii before end of day, and I'd like town to pay attention to the question and answer too. If it has been answered and I missed it, kindly point the way. ;)
He was gifted the neighborhood iirc.
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Post Post #8914 (ISO) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:50 pm

Post by Formerfish »

Hey dave.

Why does profiis power correspond directly to the prizes of the boonus rounds?
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Post Post #8915 (ISO) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:51 pm

Post by Nev and Max »

In post 8913, Formerfish wrote:
In post 8912, davesaz wrote:
@Profii

I think I've seen claims of both inventor and neighborize actions from you. Does that mean you're a JOAT? If not how do you have two actions when normal roles are singletons?

I'm on BEF. I would like to get this answer from Profii before end of day, and I'd like town to pay attention to the question and answer too. If it has been answered and I missed it, kindly point the way. ;)
He was gifted the neighborhood iirc.
In post 8914, Formerfish wrote:Hey dave.

Why does profiis power correspond directly to the prizes of the boonus rounds?
And i should go to bed.
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Post Post #8916 (ISO) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:28 pm

Post by davesaz »

In post 8915, Nev and Max wrote: Why does profiis power correspond directly to the prizes of the boonus rounds?
[/quote]
On a game design level it's most likely to add WIFOM.
I believe I noted this near the beginning of D2.
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Post Post #8917 (ISO) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:40 pm

Post by DrewVa »

For clarification, Nero hooded profii, not the other way around.

Profii effectively claimed a JOAT 1-shot loyalizer, 1-shot loudizer, 1-shot asceticizer, to my understanding. That's what "Inventor" is according to his claim. According to his claim, it neither requires charges nor uses them.

At the start of (day after TLK lynch), Profii received a hood shot from Something_Smart. There may be a mechanical reason he wanted to wait on using this; i.e., that he wanted to become loyal or disloyal first. But if so I don't know why he used his ascetic shot on Una, given that shot would have had more value for the same reason if used after he gained a mod.

Given both players received hood shots it's kinda weird to me that they wouldn't opt for a 2-way network, even without waiting for additional modifiers, particularly given the delay and oddness around receiving that hood shot.

-d
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Post Post #8918 (ISO) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:06 pm

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In post 8891, Nev and Max wrote:By all means, continue to try and diminish and belittle. Its very becoming.
I don’t share Elsa’s opinion, other than you’re being unnecesarily disruptive.
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Post Post #8919 (ISO) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:12 pm

Post by BrightEyedFish »

In post 8761, DrewVa wrote:
In post 8735, Xtoxm wrote:its entirely possible that im giving bef more credit than he deserves
if drewva wants bef first i'll sheep it
we have a 1v1 i want to resolve it
so i picked the one that made more sense to me
i havent actually read far back enough to see his claim since you guys spammed the thread again, i just saw enough to gather the situation
It’s suspicious af that he never claimed giving sf to Profil and pushed TLK mislynch, when he he pused town!Ram mislynch N2. He was also dead set on Elsa being lynched over scum!Smart.

Am I missing anything, @BEF?
Part of the reason I pushed TLK was because of the fruit. I knew profii wasn't lying that he had it and I believed he didn't intend for it to go to TLK for whatever reason.

That's about right for my reads.

I wasn't a fan of the EFN wagon, I was wrong.
I pushed Ram and TLK, I was wrong.
I SR SS, but I wanted EJ first.. I still could be right. who knows at this point.

In short, my big reads have been way off. Maybe I can say the same for my D1 TR on profii... maybe I was way off there as well.
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Post Post #8920 (ISO) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:21 pm

Post by DrewVa »

In post 8919, BrightEyedFish wrote:
In post 8761, DrewVa wrote:
In post 8735, Xtoxm wrote:its entirely possible that im giving bef more credit than he deserves
if drewva wants bef first i'll sheep it
we have a 1v1 i want to resolve it
so i picked the one that made more sense to me
i havent actually read far back enough to see his claim since you guys spammed the thread again, i just saw enough to gather the situation
It’s suspicious af that he never claimed giving sf to Profil and pushed TLK mislynch, when he he pused town!Ram mislynch N2. He was also dead set on Elsa being lynched over scum!Smart.

Am I missing anything, @BEF?
Part of the reason I pushed TLK was because of the fruit. I knew profii wasn't lying that he had it and I believed he didn't intend for it to go to TLK for whatever reason.

That's about right for my reads.

I wasn't a fan of the EFN wagon, I was wrong.
I pushed Ram and TLK, I was wrong.
I SR SS, but I wanted EJ first.. I still could be right. who knows at this point.

In short, my big reads have been way off. Maybe I can say the same for my D1 TR on profii... maybe I was way off there as well.
I would rather lynch N & M over you, since their continued outbursts are making the toxic but there’s not enough support for it.
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Post Post #8921 (ISO) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:34 pm

Post by BrightEyedFish »

Ok. well, it looks liekt he votes are coming towards me.

I haven't lied about my role or my actions. I have no more info to give to prove my alignment, the rest is up to everyone to decide if what's out there is valid or not.

Please follow CD's advice before they were killed. And read the dead people ISOs

My last reads are thinking there is scum here in no particular order:

PP, profii, DrewVa, Jingle, EJ
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Post Post #8922 (ISO) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:35 pm

Post by BrightEyedFish »

Call it being defeated or whatever, but there is nothing more I can say that hasn't been said 1,000 time about my role/actions. My vote currently sits on profii if that matters.
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Post Post #8923 (ISO) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:39 pm

Post by DrewVa »

1: You do believe there is a mechanical 1v1? There is no way, in your understanding, that this is somehow T/T?

2: I know you've talked about this some, that you thought you would die and you wanted to use your action, but if your intention was to take the loyal modifier in the boonus round, and you only had one charge, why would you vend your first charge on n1 when you could have potentially gotten a second charge and a second loyal visiting action off?

3: This might be an odd question, but why is Creature not in your final FoSes there? Wasn't he the other main option in your dayrep theory that you've been pushing? Do you townread his slot?

-d
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BrightEyedFish
BrightEyedFish
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BrightEyedFish
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Post Post #8924 (ISO) » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:46 pm

Post by BrightEyedFish »

In post 8923, DrewVa wrote:1: You do believe there is a mechanical 1v1? There is no way, in your understanding, that this is somehow T/T?

2: I know you've talked about this some, that you thought you would die and you wanted to use your action, but if your intention was to take the loyal modifier in the boonus round, and you only had one charge, why would you vend your first charge on n1 when you could have potentially gotten a second charge and a second loyal visiting action off?

3: This might be an odd question, but why is Creature not in your final FoSes there? Wasn't he the other main option in your dayrep theory that you've been pushing? Do you townread his slot?

-d
I didn't think I would die because scum would be after me because of my role. I figured I would be lynchbait or go all crazy ith a fake claim or whatever. But I kept it relatively together this game I think, maybe I had some wild theories but I always do.

Another reason I sent it so early, was because shortly before this game started I came under fire (granted after a neo fake claim) that I didn't use my 1-shot before N2... I think I had that in my head and thought that I had beter use it so I don't get that line of questioning again down the line if needed. Learning by doing. Also, I felt getting a 2nd charge would be great. Profii annoucing he had the fruit regardless of his alignment would put any future scum under pressure if they did receive the fruit to announce it because it was public knowledge that the fruit exists so I didn't see any unsolvable problems is subsequent fruit happened to land in scum hands.

If profii hadn't quickly announced that he received the fruit I would have most likely claimed on D2 and we would have probably already sorted that mess but I trusted profii for annoucing it so quick.

Yeah for sure you can throw karm/creature in that list becasue of the day rep thing. I totally spaced on that while writing that post.
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