BooneyToonz Extravaganza: LAST NIGHT TOMORROW

BrightEyedFish
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Post Post #8925  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:48 am

Here is a link to the game where I fake claimed Neop if anyone is interested:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=78012

DrewVa
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Post Post #8926  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:07 am

Well, you don't sound terribly scum in tone, but I also don't know what else to do here. I don't like favoring mechanics over reads. I have no idea how many scum are in your final pool there but Penguin is never scum here and frankly while we've been at odds I don't really know why you think our slot is scum. So I'm not exactly blown away by your final reads, although who knows. I don't even really want to lynch you, I haven't particularly wanted to lynch you since you came at us day 2, and if there is some sort of fuckup here along the line somewhere, given the number of strange coincidences involved in this crossclaim, I don't want there to be two back to back mislynches for sure, and I'm not thrilled with profii not really getting in here either. Even despite the mechanics here Nancy would prefer to lynch N&M but it doesn't sound like you would even want that from your final reads. But frankly I am just really fucking sick of dealing with this sticky fruit nonsense. I don't know if I've somehow overprioritized this cross-claim just because it involved TLK's death and everything there or what. Maybe TLK baited the crossclaim because he just wanted his SuperSaint ability to go off. In which case, holy shit, what a gamethrow. But I don't see how we play around potential gamethrows or mod errors and I don't know how we ignore mechanical cross-claims in a setup that specifically states setup potential.

Still want to hear from profii a bit more before day end. If anyone thinks that *somehow* this is actually T/T and we should just lynch N&M and do some mechanical checks on BEF and profii let me know.

-d
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BrightEyedFish
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Post Post #8927  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:12 am

In post 8926, DrewVa wrote:Well, you don't sound terribly scum in tone, but I also don't know what else to do here. I don't like favoring mechanics over reads. I have no idea how many scum are in your final pool there but Penguin is never scum here and frankly while we've been at odds I don't really know why you think our slot is scum. So I'm not exactly blown away by your final reads, although who knows. I don't even really want to lynch you, I haven't particularly wanted to lynch you since you came at us day 2, and if there is some sort of fuckup here along the line somewhere, given the number of strange coincidences involved in this crossclaim, I don't want there to be two back to back mislynches for sure, and I'm not thrilled with profii not really getting in here either. Even despite the mechanics here Nancy would prefer to lynch N&M but it doesn't sound like you would even want that from your final reads. But frankly I am just really fucking sick of dealing with this sticky fruit nonsense. I don't know if I've somehow overprioritized this cross-claim just because it involved TLK's death and everything there or what. Maybe TLK baited the crossclaim because he just wanted his SuperSaint ability to go off. In which case, holy shit, what a gamethrow. But I don't see how we play around potential gamethrows or mod errors and I don't know how we ignore mechanical cross-claims in a setup that specifically states setup potential.

Still want to hear from profii a bit more before day end. If anyone thinks that *somehow* this is actually T/T and we should just lynch N&M and do some mechanical checks on BEF and profii let me know.

-d


I was in favor of an N&M lynch earlier in the day but after their exchange with EJ and sine I've been townleaning N&M.
But as I've already mentioned, my reads haven't been stellar

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Post Post #8928  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:19 am

I want to get a shotgunned readslist from Bef and Profii before I vote. If it's in the last couple pages please repost it because I'm not sifting through you guys toxic implosions. Sorry not sorry to all involved.

BrightEyedFish
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Post Post #8929  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:22 am

In post 8928, RCEnigma wrote:I want to get a shotgunned readslist from Bef and Profii before I vote. If it's in the last couple pages please repost it because I'm not sifting through you guys toxic implosions. Sorry not sorry to all involved.


I think there is scum in here, not for sure on how to order them though.

PP, profii, DrewVa, Jingle, EJ, Creature

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Post Post #8930  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:45 am

Great

This game is officially broken due mod error
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Creature
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Post Post #8931  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:45 am

I could swear I got the loud modifier
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BrightEyedFish
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Post Post #8932  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:00 am

In post 8901, Nev and Max wrote:We will vote for BEF with the understanding that if he flips town we, without question, lynch profii the next day.


I will flip town and that won't change the fact that I sent profii the fruit. I don't see how my town flip will implicate profii even if I think he is scum since I had no loyal modifier or anything.

I know this doesn't help my case but it's the truth.

BrightEyedFish
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Post Post #8933  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:01 am

In post 8931, Creature wrote:I could swear I got the loud modifier


But it seems you didn't. I don't believe for a second that Boon deleted it from your confessional or hacked in and deleted your PM.

BrightEyedFish
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Post Post #8934  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:08 am

Can profii check his PMs that he sent the loud?

Boonskiies
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Post Post #8935  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:09 am

In post 8904, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 8755, DrewVa wrote:
In post 8718, davesaz wrote:On mobile. Drewva your activate is day. What is your night ability?
Profii you have both inventor and neighborizer. Isn't that a joat? If not then how do you have two roles?

In post 8719, DrewVa wrote:We have no night ability

-d


We don’t, we won N1 and picked 1-shot vig.

N3 we won and gifted SS with loud.

It shouldn't impact this but I want to ask it.
@Boon: is it possible to keep your +1 and gift your other winnings or vice versa? Or do you have to keep both or gift both?


They gotta stick together.
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Post Post #8936  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:20 am

In post 8930, Creature wrote:Great

This game is officially broken due mod error

In post 8931, Creature wrote:I could swear I got the loud modifier


This should die.

davesaz
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Post Post #8937  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:59 am

Joat would not be a variant if it were stated as joat and not inventor.
Playing modded minecraft: Dungeons & Dragons & Space Shuttles pack
Thread here

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PenguinPower
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Post Post #8938  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:12 am

In post 8937, davesaz wrote:Joat would not be a variant if it were stated as joat and not inventor.


In post 5032, profii wrote:
In post 5030, RCEnigma wrote:Inventor isn't in the rolebook either. Maybe the variants can be roles outside of the list? It's pretty confusing.

Are the people that you give modifiers to notified that this happens?

exactly - when i was claiming on day 1 it occurred to me my role wasn't on the list so i asked boon why and he said there can be variants.

so i am one - if we get too many variant claims we become a lynch pool immediately (including me obvs)
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Post Post #8939  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:13 am

Eh. Joat is only normal if all the parts are normal, so I’d argue it’s probably variant even if the role says joat. Simple enough to ask boon though.

@boon: would a joat with variant abilities be a variant?

Petit: nvm
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Post Post #8940  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:09 am

In post 8933, BrightEyedFish wrote:
In post 8931, Creature wrote:I could swear I got the loud modifier


But it seems you didn't. I don't believe for a second that Boon deleted it from your confessional or hacked in and deleted your PM.

I find it hard I am having hallucinations.
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Post Post #8941  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:09 am

In post 8936, Nev and Max wrote:
In post 8930, Creature wrote:Great

This game is officially broken due mod error

In post 8931, Creature wrote:I could swear I got the loud modifier


This should die.

Cool you first
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PenguinPower
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Post Post #8942  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:10 am

BEF first pls.
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Post Post #8943  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:11 am

In post 8942, PenguinPower wrote:BEF first pls.

Why?
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PenguinPower
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Post Post #8944  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:14 am

I suggest you read. It's been explained quite in depth.
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Post Post #8945  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:14 am

Could you link atleast? I'm on mobile and having class.
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UnaBombaH
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Post Post #8946  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:17 am

In post 8749, Elsa Jay wrote:Thank you, bird that isn't a duck.
Currently at this post, will catch up properly tomorrow. (~14h from now)
"If Unah’s scum, consider me a random $20 on the ground, cuz I am pocketed."
-Flavor Leaf to scum!Una

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Post Post #8947  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:17 am

What a post to be at.

Jingle
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Post Post #8948  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:22 am

In post 8900, DrewVa wrote:Given that there's been a lot of noise in thread I'm making my wallpost catchup and trying to make it as digestible as possible.

Spoiler: DVa on the 1v1
In post 8738, DrewVa wrote:
In post 8733, Xtoxm wrote:BEF walking into a 1v1 that conf deaths him within 2 days seems less likely to come from scum


As Jingle observed, it's safe to say that BEF was not aware he was walking into a mechanical 1v1 as either alignment -- if he was town he would have claimed as soon as our slot claimed Town Grifter (referred to by everyone as 'activate' lately), if he was scum it makes little sense for him to create this 1v1.

I have been trying to eliminate the possibility that this is somehow an NAR issue and that it's T/T, given BEF struck me as very townie in the way he claimed, however most options still come back to "one of the two has to be lying." If the sticky fruit could travel to multiple people in one night, that would mean he was lying about his role card afaik.

I have confirmed from Boon that profii could in fact target PP with sticky fruit and Creature with Loud the same night without multitasking, so there's no convenient scumclaim there that would settle this.

It would help if Creature actually confirmed whether or not he got the loud so that we could confirm that theory 2 is a real possibility.

Theory 1: Profii sent the sticky fruit to TLK and lied about it to implicate TLK and create a very confusing mechanical quasi 1v1 d2. Weird play as scum.

Theory 2: BEF sent the sticky fruit to Profii n1, then had S_S jail Profii n2, while sending the sticky fruit to TLK, thus generating a mechanical 1v1 between the supersaint and the variant role inventor.

Theory 3: There is some other explanation.

The problem with theory 3 is that, if the sticky fruit can only travel to one person each night as the role card on page 1 suggests, then I don't see how BEF is not lying about his rolecard for it to somehow end up at TLK. If BEF is a 'variant sticky fruit vendor' then he is lying about being a normal sticky fruit vendor.

Theory 4: Mod/human error.

No idea how to play around this, but we did get TLK to confirm his statements multiple times, and I feel like if Boon had actually made a mistake he would have said so real life weeks ago. I will say that I have asked the duck a couple questions about this, and his answers have on one key point actually differed from Boon's, so I don't think the mechanics of everything here is super obvious. (The duck was not aware that Profii could vend the sticky fruit to one person and still target creature with a separate night action without multitasking; boon said he could. Still not enough to make me think mod error, though, given boon's response matches profii's description of his choices at night.)

My top priority since this began has been eliminating the possibilty that Profii and BEF are both T/T and that this is not actually a true mechanical 1v1, but so far I see now way that is possible given the information we have at hand.

I have tried to eliminate the following risks:
-One of the three variant/boon roles is not a variant/boon role. As far as I can tell, all three must be variant/boon roles so a redirector cannot exist.

-The sticky fruit did not act as we expected. I don't see how this is possible; if the sticky fruit travels to each person who is targeting someone else, then it should have ended up on PenguinPower night 1. Profii has confirmed he still had the sticky fruit night 2.

-BEF did not understand his role. We have talked to BEF about his role at length at this point and I don't see how this is a possibility.

I keep trying to find something that makes this not a 1v1 and I keep coming up short. This is leaving me to conclude that either Theory 1 or Theory 2 is the most likely to be the case and this is an actual 1v1.

-d


tl;dr: BEF vs profii looks like a real 1v1 that we should resolve with a flip.

Spoiler: DVa on who is the better lynch between profii and BEF
In post 8817, DrewVa wrote:
In post 8738, DrewVa wrote:, while sending the sticky fruit to TLK, thus generating a mechanical 1v1 between the supersaint and the variant role inventor.


in this theory, someone, probably S_S, came up with the idea to create a mechanical cross-claim between two town, by using the jailkeep to create wifom in addition to BEF's role, which here would presumably be an every-night sticky fruit vendor.

So BEF n1 -- fruits profii
BEF n2 -- fruit sTLK
BEF n3 -- Maybe Elsa (if Elsa is scum BP)?
BEF n4 -- maybe Jingle (if Jingle is not town commuter)?

like bearing in mind how many people have either acted like commuters, have some sort of ascetic modifier, or have had a wide range of actions fail on them, it is not impossible that a scum sticky fruit vendor has in fact been vending sticky fruit to scum.

This is the line of reasoning I believe that Jingle was following (which would imply perhaps that Jingle is actually a town commuter perhaps), that is, that scum sticky fruit vendor would make sense in a setup where there are so many loyalized actions, where players like Profii can create loyalized visitors, etc. etc. From a setup/design perspective, BEF's role sounds like a scum counter to Profii's role, although that in and of itself should not convince anyone, just something I noticed.

Additionally, there is an argument to be made that the sticky fruit vendor is at best a kind of town miller. It is a role that, unless modified with a pro-town modifier like loyal, is explicitly anti-utility, given town's need to create mechanical clears through loyal/disloyal actions.

When we are thinking about BEF's play, another question emerges: BEF says he vended to profii n1 because he was worried he would die and he wanted to use it. But, BEF had entered a boonus room where he saw that he could get a loyal modifier, potentially. This being the case, why would he not hold his sticky fruit shot and ask to be gifted a loyal modifier, which would in effect turn his negative utility action for town (vending sticky fruit) into a pro-town action?

So there is at least some merit to Jingle's argument that BEF may be a useful lynch to eliminate wifom regardless of role, ESPECIALLY if we do conclude that this is a true mechanical 1v1 between Profii and BEF. Given Creature's testimony that he has not been made loud, this reinforces the evidence pointing toward a true mechanical 1v1.

For BEF scum there are:
-Arguments from setup spec (sticky fruit vendor seems like a pro-scum role)
-Arguments from play (pushing the dayrep theory, although actually there was one little part of that I didn't hate, but he's way over-emphasized it)
-Arguments for eliminating wifom (if we are wrong, profii should be caught scum, and at least we would know there are not additional sticky fruit floating around the setup, eliminating the strength of our clears)

For BEF town though there are:
-Arguments from tone (his frustration with me in particular in certain respects could easily come from town)
-Arguments from motive (it's not clear why he claimed in the way he did today as scum; and if he did, it may have been a mistake)

vs.

For Profii scum there is:
-Arguments from presence (I feel like profii usually has a bit more presence in the thread as town)

For Profii town there is:
-Arguments from pro-town actions and attentiveness (Profii made PP loyal, because profii believed that PP was a fruit vendor. This suggests profii was actively thinking about how to use his role in a pro-town way from very early on in the game)
-Arguments from tone (Profii has seemed pretty genuinely confused by today's discussion)
-Arguments from point of view (Profii was aware that he could vend a sticky fruit and use a night action at the same time, which is not something I would have thought was possible, but is possible--him knowing this increases the plausibility at least that he did intend to actually send the sticky fruit to a different target than his night action)

Given I believe there are some arguments on each side, this also raises another question:
Should town resolve this 1v1 today? We have multiple loyal/disloyal actions, etc. And here we might consider Jingle's argument -- if we're wrong about BEF, we will have significantly more wifom in regard to proving night actions. Even a green flip on BEF as a mislynch is not explicitly bad for the town in terms of helping us solve the game and create the strongest pro-town endgame.

While N&M may not be keen on the idea, my preference would be for him to be leashed to PenguinPower, to ensure that Penguin gets his fruit off tonight and is alive tomorrow.

-d


tl;dr:
In post 8818, DrewVa wrote:Given all the available evidence, testimony, and the nature of the setup, I support a BEF lynch today.

-d


You: if that's the case, why hasn't your slot already voted to end day?

answer:
In post 8827, DrewVa wrote:[part of this post shortened]
there are some outstanding questions for profii:

-What was his reasoning in choosing to use his ascetic shot at all? Why would he make Una ascetic? How was that a pro-town decision?
-Why did he not use his neighborhood shot last night? Wouldn't he want to prove that the shot was real, given that it was given to him by scum?
-Why has he not been more forthcoming about the timing of his neighborhood with Nero, given the timing of Nero's neighborhood shot is significant for understanding who possibly fed scum +1 charges n1?

[...] I'm not in a rush to end the day before profii addresses these points if people do want to advance him as the lynch for today.

-d


In short, I'd like to confirm that we have a majority on BEF, and I'd like profii to answer a few last questions. After that, I am ready for a flip on BEF.

-d

In post 8945, Creature wrote:Could you link atleast? I'm on mobile and having class.


Kay.
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Post Post #8949  (ISO)  » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:24 am

In post 8945, Creature wrote:Could you link atleast? I'm on mobile and having class.


is a good summary.

p-edit

Yeah...that too.
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