Booneytoonz IX - Under The Sea -- Game Over!

[Jingle]

claim now Jingle.

I am new sheep, lord master of the sheep people. Baaaa.

[Jingle]

If someone could catch me up that'd be swell. I've read approximately half a page.

[Jingle]

Hmm, post massclaim. Okay. I’m a willbooster.

What are the cases on Kaito, FB, and Vedith?

What is FB’s info?

[Jingle]

It’s a boon bank role. Basically I make someone strong willed for a night.

[Jingle]

Targeted Clem, reading up.

[Jingle]

He claimed roleblocker, according to Nero. I assumed that either meant he was town RB and the best chance at stopping the kill or scum. If he was scum my role was useless because only one investigative after massclaim means you'd just die.

I legit didn't realize that he was probably out of shots because I've been playing marathons instead of catching up.

[Jingle]

So from what I gather Kaito was cleared by night actions. How is that?

gonna make a list of players and see what I can't piece together from what you guys have said.

[Jingle]

sheepsaysmeep- Willbooster
Nero Cain- confirmed miller (miller is only town in normal, right?)
Pink Ball- VT?
Kaito Momota- conftown VT?
Wisdom- RC
Nancy Drew 39- Miller
Creature- Backup RC
BBmolla- VT?

Is that right?

[Jingle]

Goon would be wonky here, let me look at flips.

[Jingle]

Nikk - Vanilla Townie
Alchemist21 - Town Miller
Elsa Jay - Mafia Goon
Chara - Town Miller
Maki Harukawa - Town Desperate Neighborizer


So power here is

Willbooster
3?x Miller
? VT
RC
Backup RC
Roleblocker/Doc
Friendly Neighbor

IG
G
?

RC can get 4 hard innos, 1? hard guilty. Roughly the same as a tracker. Roleblocker and doc on the same person is > than each separately. Backup RC seems weird given the lack of important results from the RC. RC is probably going to target millers early so why backup?

If there's no scum rb I'm probably a negative utility town role.

Why are you guys thinking 4 scum? Town doesn't look that stacked to me.

[Jingle]

Wait, 5 millers? That maybe explains backup RC. That's 4-6 potentially useful results for that role. Don't see why scum would have an RC at all given like half the players are gonna claim D1.

[Jingle]

What is desperate?

[Jingle]

Roleblocker and doc on the same person is > than each separately.

They are separate.

No the point is that if you give the roleblocker to the doc instead of making it a different player they can't interfere with each other.

[Jingle]

Wait, it's day 5? Why only 5 flips? Did clem out who he stopped/saved?

[Jingle]

oh, 7 flips. Gamma hasn't added yesterday's and last night. Still tho, when did a kill go missing?

[Jingle]

I'm kinda thinking there is no scum roleblocker and I'm just here to make Clem less effective.

[Jingle]

I'm gonna go check Clem's iso for crumbs.

[Jingle]

if i was scum this game my vote would be on elsa by now

Maybe rb on Clem crumb? I don't see why he wouldn't claim it though after outing?

[Jingle]

so what is the setup in your opinion? informed goon + goon + ?

Probably something that looks town to a rolecop. Tracker maybe?

[Jingle]

No, tracker doesn't fit. Too limited a pool to search in. You would've been found early.

[Jingle]

Or wait, maybe that's why there's a backup?

[Jingle]

Why me?

[Jingle]

Because post massclaim and I don't know what's happened/am trying to piece it together?

[Jingle]

What was FB's information claim?

[Jingle]

If Elsa wasn’t actually lying about a traitor, then we won’t find any associatives.

Traitor would still be in the pool of people we're lynching as scum though, most likely.

[Jingle]

Why molla? I can usually read him pretty well, maybe I can figure that out.

[Jingle]

Why hunt traitor over groupscum?

[Jingle]

I'm pretty sure I've played with FA before, but can't rightly recall when. :shrugs:

[Jingle]

the lynch was always between jingle and creature though

scum have a pr nancy

I don't see how this logic tracks.

[Jingle]

Why do I fakeclaim willbooster with as little information as I have?

Alternatively, how do I kill if I commuted?

[Jingle]

The second piece seems useless at this point, tbh.

[Jingle]

Oh, hey, BB replaced FA. I thought you were talking about two players.

[Jingle]

Oh, enchantress only self commutes when targeting scum. I misunderstood that. Huh.

[Jingle]

Don't see how I can argue against that, tbh. It's not true, but there's nothing I can say to prove that.

I'd offer to let you rolecop me tonight, but you probably just die.

[Jingle]

BB ISO doesn't really say much to me, btw. I would probably vote there.

[Jingle]

do you expect me to believe you just strongwilled clem based on something nero said without reading anything

on n4 of a game

as a strong town pr

Yes?

We lynched scum pretty much immediately after I replaced in and I haven't had a chance to read up. Why wouldn't I target Clem, considering if Clem was fakeclaiming none of the roles Nero mentioned could stop a kill?

[Jingle]

claim now Jingle.

I am new sheep, lord master of the sheep people. Baaaa.

We are all claimed except you and creature.

I want to kill Katio.

Wisdom and his goon squad want to kill Firebringer/Vedith.

Wisdom is a claimed rolecop who has an informed vanilla result on Fire (n1) Miller on Dave/Nero (n2) and vanilla on Katio.

I'm a confirmed miller.

Nancy and BBmolla have also claimed millers.

Pink Ball is a claimed VT.

Katio is either a vy or goon.

Clem is a claimed multitasking doc and something else. roleblocker?

What else would you like to know?

Given this is my starting point, Clem seemed like a really good Willboost target, just saying.

[Jingle]

That would be truly awful play.

[Jingle]

The more I think about it the more likely 4 scum seems.

[Jingle]

obviously if I keep getting no result Jingle will be confscum in my eyes

If you get no result once I'd be confscum in your eyes. There's literally no other Willboost target.

They probably just kill one of us if we're both town to frame the other though.

How many mislynches do we have left?

[Jingle]

So maybe 2?

Lynch someone today, Wis probably dies and we no lynch tomorrow?

If creature and I are still alive he either confirms me or it's a mechanical 1v1.

[Jingle]

They probably just kill one of us if we're both town to frame the other though.

Not sure why you're going with this when earlier you were saying you were negative utility

You're right, they probably kill creat to frame me. That definitely fits inside of that statement though.

[Jingle]

Wow, I didn't know there were that many mafia games.

[Jingle]

God this would be so much easier if clem had just claimed his results.

[Jingle]

So FMPOV either Clem basically gamethrew or there's a scum roleblocker. (I guess technically Wis could be faking being rb-d but why?)

[Jingle]

What about "There's one protective claim, I should willboost that" is shitty?

Like, all of the arguments about me willboosting Wisdom presume I've read the thread thoroughly when marathon weekend started right after I replaced in.

[Jingle]

Town roleblocker is protective. I thought he was the only person who could stop a kill. He was the obvious willboost choice.

[Jingle]

He claimed roleblocker, according to Nero. I assumed that either meant he was town RB and the best chance at stopping the kill or scum. If he was scum my role was useless because only one investigative after massclaim means you'd just die.

I legit didn't realize that he was probably out of shots because I've been playing marathons instead of catching up.

This is basically: "He's the only chance at a protective".

[Jingle]

No, I'm just anti roleblocker. Wis thinks I'm fakeclaiming as enchantress.

[Jingle]

Wis, why do I claim willbooster as scum?

[Jingle]

Wis, why do I claim willbooster as scum?

Think about this for a minute. If I'm the scum roleblocker (or enchantress or whatever) why do I claim literally the only role that can prevent a roleblocker from working and then roleblock anyway? If I was a scum enchantress who was going to target wisdom for a block why not just fake VT?

[Jingle]

Semantics. I meant he was the only role that could stop a kill. Is that better?

[Jingle]

Why claim a boon bank role at all?

[Jingle]

It's a safe claim in that it couldn't be counterclaimed, sure. It's not a safe claim in that it's literally the only role that semi incriminates me if a roleblock happens on a town PR. If I knew there was going to be a roleblock on a town PR, why claim it in the first place?

[Jingle]

Oh, hey. I just realized I might have useful information.

Gamma didn't give me previous actions on replace in, but there's a good chance my N3 target is town. Lemme go ask.

[Jingle]

Could jingle be a symbiote that was forced to act as a balancing mechanism for 4 scum?

How would that be a balancing mechanism? Scum would know who the target was and just never kill them until the symbiote was dead.

[Jingle]

Also, if I was a symbiote why not just claim symbiote? That's a super town claim.

[Jingle]

Don't we already have two variants?

N3 sheep didn't submit, btw.

[Jingle]

traitor JK would be variant, tho, right?

[Jingle]

but if creat is scum backup rolecop he can't be responsible for Wis rb

[Jingle]

Cop is also virtually always town, nancy.

Just trust that the three people telling you scum backups for town roles are possible aren't all scum.

[Jingle]

I never claim willbooster as enchantress, Wis.

[Jingle]

BoP here, but I'm not bad enough as scum to claim the role that can mess with my own and then use my own role. If I was enchantress I would have claimed VT.

[Jingle]

but if he's trueclaiming scum there's a buddy

[Jingle]

nancy creature and jingle cant be both town in this setup. You need to understand this.

I think we are

[Jingle]

Like, assuming he's actually a backup rolecop he's conftown to me, actually.

[Jingle]

If 4 scum, Creat and I both have to be town.
If 3 scum, and Creat backup RC, Creat didn't rb wisdom.


I'm not voting Creature today.

[Jingle]

How is the setup balanced without both of us town?

[Jingle]

rolecop + backup rolecop + maki + clem against 3 goons + enchantress

balanced enough

Terrible argument. First I know I'm not scum, so:

Rolecop
Willbooster
Maki
Clem
7 VT/Miller

Goon
Goon
Roleblocker
Backup Rolecop

Second, how is that balanced?

[Jingle]

dont see whats the issue with yours either; backup rolecop is another goon until i die, and willbooster actually has a use

rolecop + backup rolecop + maki + clem against 3 goons + enchantress

balanced enough

Terrible argument. First I know I'm not scum, so:

Rolecop
Willbooster
Maki
Clem
7 VT/Miller

Goon
Goon
Roleblocker
Backup Rolecop

Second, how is that balanced?

Setup as described.

3.5 mislynches to scumwin:

Maki dies on ~1/2 of the playerlist. Assuming 4 millers and millers all claim D1, that's a 4/11 chance of Maki targeting someone who wouldn't die D1. 5 millers drops that to 4/10. Scum is incentivized via the presumptive information to claim miller, so that's additional likelihood that Maki dies N1 for a single innocent, which is only really useful if she crumbs hard enough to out herself to scum. So, probably extra kill on N1. Rolecop can get guilties on maybe 1 player here, unless scum fakes miller and should be hunting innocents. Scum, on the other hand have a pool of 6/7 people to roleblock in. Presumably they stop innocents/guilties fairly regularly AND have a smallish pool to PR hunt for the nightkill. Backup rolecop is literally useless for scum there, because in order for the power to be useful the rolecop has to already be dead. So the earliest an informed kill can be made is N3. Maki is the only role that can survive a claim on the role itself.

That's a terrible setup.

[Jingle]

scum jingle can block me though so fakeclaiming isnt an issue

But why fakeclaim literally the one role that would be able to stop you from roleblocking me?

[Jingle]

sigh i wanna cry we are going to repeat the same things forever

Do normal scumhunting instead.

ok normal scumhunting;

jingle does not randomly target clem on a whim without reading. he's better.

Your BoP is bad here. Me fakeclaiming willbooster as enchantress is worse play than what you're calling bad play. Literally the whole argument here is that you don't believe I didn't read the game, which is saying I'm lying about having other priorities. Or is my very public marathon involvement not proof?

[Jingle]

VOTE: Molla

I don't think it's creature. Mislynch me if you want, but know that your arguments to do so are terrible.

[Jingle]

Nanc, your fire was setting up creature theory is both irrelevant and reaching.

First, from a game design standpoint, informing scum of a backup RC makes far less sense than informing them of either the neighborizor or the doc/roleblock combination.
Second, from a trusting claims standpoint there's no reason to think FB was even being honest.
Third, from a gameplay standpoint, it makes far more sense that claiming to be informed that a role is absent but not claiming what role is better for setting up whatever role you want as a 1v1 with yourself after massclaim, either to bus for towncred or to win via fakeguilty.

Wis is right.

[Jingle]

I'd say designing a setup that feels townsided so town starts mislynching PRs is a solid mod strategy.

When designing games, consider # of myslynches needed, number of lynch shorteners, number of possible innocents, number of unlynchable roles (like maki's for example), and role interactions.

What you're describing is how you balance role madness setups. You make sure that the majority of roles look slightly scummy so that not all of them are mislynchable, or you make sure all of the claims are townish.

[Jingle]

BB: Jingle PB Wis Nancy
Jingle: Kaito
Creature: BB

[Jingle]

Nero's last vote was Kaito iirc.

[Jingle]

Besides, even if Kaito is scum we want to hit the roleblocker first.

[Jingle]

Good point.

[Jingle]

Do you have posts you can link to to show me?

[Jingle]

There's no reason not to argue Kaito today, though.

Seriously, Nancy, what's your reasoning?

[Jingle]

Me not being scum

Not reasoning as to why Kaito is scum, but thx.

[Jingle]

I'm not doing ISO's today. If the thread isn't locked by then I'll do it tomorrow when I set aside time for mafia reading.

[Jingle]

I can’t be w/w with anyone.

[Jingle]

all millers should claim asap - its like having a red cop result - it will prevent redundant checks and help the game

all millers must die before lylo. I don't care that includes me

as someone who always try to endgame and very rarely gets lynched and usually can carry scumteams to victory - I would never ever fake claim miller

about alchemist I don't know why would a scum them fake claim miller and I'm not sure if they are bold enough scum player to do that.

The bolded isn’t protown. There is no reason millers need to die before LYLO, unless everyone else is townier.

Argument for creature kaito not being w/w. Will explain when not mobile.

[Jingle]

Creature is locktown. Have you ever played with scum!Creature before? This isn’t it.

Actually I don’t think I have. I’ve played with town him a few times, but the only scumgame I’m aware of is one I’ve been linked to to demonstrate that he broke his “doesn’t post as scum” meta. And I barely skimmed that because I was scum when they linked me it.

[Jingle]

Argument for creature kaito not being w/w. Will explain when not mobile.

FA's post supposes the millers are unconfirmable. Knowledge of a rolecop is directly counter to that, so the scumteam probably had no indication of a rolecop if FA scum.

[Jingle]

Oh, yeah. Sorry, keeping replaces straight is tough this morning for some reason.

[Jingle]

Living players:

Nero- Conftown
Wis
Nanc
Me
Creat
BB
Kaito
PB

Kaito makes sense as scum with BB/PB/Creat afaict.

Who is BB reasonably partnered with?

[Jingle]

FA's post looks like she considers all miller claims lynchbait. Not necassarily AI. But if she has a buddy who is a backup RC, she probably thinks there's an RC in the setup. Which means that she wouldn't consider millers lynchbait but as potentially confirmable townies.

[Jingle]

No, just saying that the two of you aren't partners.

[Jingle]

Why would there be an informed scum who gets info about millers being in the setup and then think, no way does it make sense, to have a town rolecop in this game? Like no.

Backwards. Role cop makes sense with many millers, many millers doesn't necessarily mean there's going to be a rolecop. If I open an IG PM that says there's a buncha millers, I don't presume that there's going to be a rolecop. If I open a role pm that says backup rolecop, I assume there's going to be a rolecop. FA's post doesn't look like she thought there was a rolecop.

[Jingle]

Why are you only 3rd on your own list?

Cause I typed it out instead of copying it from somewhere and that's when I thought to include me? Nero was actually just before PB originally, but I moved him to the top because he's actually conftown.

It's not in any order particularly.

[Jingle]

Creature is locktown. Have you ever played with scum!Creature before? This isn’t it.

Actually I don’t think I have. I’ve played with town him a few times, but the only scumgame I’m aware of is one I’ve been linked to to demonstrate that he broke his “doesn’t post as scum” meta. And I barely skimmed that because I was scum when they linked me it.

You reasking questions I've already answered isn't really my fault, Nancy.

And you should know by now that I'm never going to take subjective reads for granted. I also think Creature is town. That doesn't mean I'm going to stop considering the possibility he's scum.

[Jingle]

No, just saying that the two of you aren't partners.

Have you ever played with scum!Creature? I’m not wrong here.

I’m getting really tired of repeating this.

I just checked. My completed games with Creature are Police Academy (me scum, creature in giant hydra) and RC's UPick (both town).

[Jingle]

jingle & my reservations on you being town.

I was actually pretty sure Shoshin was town from the moment she asked to be neighborized.

The Lynch her in 7p LYLO thing was exactly the same as the mastina thing. There is never a point when I am happy enough with my subjective reads to take them completely off the table forever (I don't trust me that much), and Shoshin was the only lynch in 7p LYLO that 100% guaranteed we'd make it to 5p LYLO.

And, tbc, I did misread the shit out of mastina this game, but I planned for that, too. And if I played in mafia games more often I'd be down to play with you again Nico. I just... don't play as much mafia as I used to.

Hopefully I can stop repeating this to you now.

[Jingle]

VOTE: No Lynch

We're potentially in MYLO. If neither of me/Creature dies tonight, we have useful PR results or a mechanical 1v1. If either of me/Creature dies tonight, we didn't lose a conftown.

This is the only reasonable choice.

[Jingle]

I'm also flirting with the idea of no lynch like it prob does nothing since I'm pretty likely to be the kill but on the off chance scum don't have a roleblocker AND Creature is a backup rolecop giving him an extra investigate seems the smart play, no?

I'm a willbooster. If Creature was blocked, it would mean he's lying or I am.

[Jingle]

Why didn’t scum block Wisdom and kill you last night then? I think Wisdom kill over you, points to probably no scum rb and probably Clem rb’d Wisdom.

*cough*Willbooster*cough*

[Jingle]

I’m not opposed to Jingle. I didn’t really care too much for his entrance.

Dafuq?

[Jingle]

Why MyLo? How?

2 scum 6 alive. 15p means either 3 or 4 scum. Based on claimed power and two flipped goons, the later is pretty much guaranteed.

[Jingle]

The only argument to not no lynching is the idea that your reads are infallible. You’re scumreading me.

I’m also not going to discuss my suspicions because no lynching is the right move here and there’s no point to me telling scum who I suspect before they have to make a kill choice.

[Jingle]

Actually Jingle, I think you're somewhat confscum for proposing the no lynch. If you really think there's two scum remaining, lynching today is far better than tomorrow, since Nero is conftown and he will be certainly killed tomorrow so the LyLo would be better for scum in this case; only one wrong vote on town and they quick lynch. They need two wrong votes in this situation.

First, Mylo with conftown is mathmatically indistinguishable from LYLO without. Second, Nero isn't the obvious kill. Third, I'm not the only one who proposed no lynch.

I'm also flirting with the idea of no lynch like it prob does nothing since I'm pretty likely to be the kill but on the off chance scum don't have a roleblocker AND Creature is a backup rolecop giving him an extra investigate seems the smart play, no?

Or is Nero confscum too?

[Jingle]

It's not indistinguishable; MyLo needs two wrong votes, LyLo needs one. Nero said exactly what I said: he would probably the nightkill and would be useless to no lynch today. And he's wrong: Creature rolecopping someone would've nice at some point before LyLo, but that didn't happen. We won't lynch someone based on Creature's result 'cause he still could be scum and we don't have a lynch to spare to confirm that.

So no, no lynch guarantees the death of Nero, and my point still stands: the scumteam would need only one wrong vote to win instead of two. I don't want to vote Kaito in case it's you and Creature; on LyLo, you just need Nancy to vote him. This is just an example, of course. I think it's you and Kaito. But I want you dead first.

VOTE: Jingle

Nope.

First. 6p MYLO with a conftown is a 40% chance of lynching scum. 5p LYLO with no conftown is a 40% chance of lynching scum. Mathmatically indistinguishable. Looking at your vote prospective from a different angle, both of them NEED EVERY TOWN VOTE TO LYNCH SCUM.

Creature rolecopping someone does 1 of two things. Either, he confirms someone as town or he creates a 1v1 between him and that person. If creature claims no result, it has to be one of me/creature. If creature dies, we still have a conftown. If Nero dies, we either have a 50% chance of hitting scum or a conftown (and a 50% chance of hitting scum).

Mathematically, 50>40. And if you can't understand that I can recommend some good kindergartens for you to go to.

[Jingle]

No, Nero will be and scum is setting you to be framed for it. Why else does Jingle vote no lynch here. It’s obvious.

Enlighten me. Because you're being dumb.

[Jingle]

Blatantly correct play.

[Jingle]

Hey, Nancy. Remember Jester nightless where you called town arguing correct play scum?

Well... You're doing it again. And this time you're going to lose a game because of it.

[Jingle]

Pls unvote while we discuss, btw. I don't want quickhammers.

[Jingle]

If Jingle rbs you, Nero being IC, would be the greater threat.

Blatantly untrue, btw.

If I were a roleblocker and roleblocked Creature (which leaves unexplained the lack of boon bank roles) then Creature would claim a no result and there'd be a 50% chance of lynching scum.

I get that I'm probably the game ending mislynch. But I'd rather have as much of a chance to win this for town as possible before you all shit the bed collectively.

[Jingle]

Or they try to mislynch PB maybe. But they want you roleblocked in any case.

FMPOV, Creature claiming a no result means he's scum.

[Jingle]

Or they try to mislynch PB maybe. But they want you roleblocked in any case.

FMPOV, Creature claiming a no result means he's scum.

No, it means you roleblocked him. Stop insulting my intelligence. I’m not buying this, okay. I’ve rolled scum with Creature in Heroes Wanted and played numerous games with him as either alignment. He is town here.

Yeah, single problem with that, Nancy. I know I'm a town willbooster, not a scum roleblocker. Or do you not know what FMPOV means?

[Jingle]

Nancy, you sound exactly like you did in no deadlines.

[Jingle]

No Lynch in this situation is literally optimal play for town.

[Jingle]

You are objectively wrong, which is the frustrating part.

[Jingle]

Nancy, you sound exactly like you did in no deadlines.

The difference is you were actually town in that and that became obvious eventually.

Nah the difference is absolutely nothing because you never reevaluate reads. But I'm done trying to beat a dead horse.

V/LA until this game is over

Bye.

[Jingle]

You are objectively wrong, which is the frustrating part.

No Lynch in this situation is literally optimal play for town.

[Jingle]

Because I am town, I am voting for the best chance town has at winning the game.

[Jingle]

I'm not going to sit here and try to convince a brick wall the sky is blue Nancy. You're wrong, but you're too egotistical to admit that you might be to yourself. Just like when I wanted to lynch sheep in no deadlines and you protected him right up until he endgamed you.

[Jingle]

Jingle shading me with the kindergarden comment is scum. Bye.

I understand your point, but you're talking about something I haven't commented and you keep avoiding that: you need two wrong votes here, you need one wrong vote in LyLo, and since we have a conftown that won't be tomorrow, it's better for scum to go to LyLo. So you shading me and trying to depict me as an idiot when I wasn't talking about maths is scummy as fuck.

The fact that you have a buffer vote in MYLO is meaningless, unless you're assuming people are dumb enough to allow for quickhammering in MYLO.

And no, the fact that people who haven't been in thread haven't quickhammered is not proof of anything.

Also Nancy, the whole refusing to reevaluate bit? That kinda just proves my point.

I wash my hands of this loss. It's on you guys.

[Jingle]

Fun fact, Kaito and sheep were pushing each other all through the game, now suddenly Jingle considers Kaito to be obvtown. Sheep and Kaito were scum distancing throughout the game. Why did Kaito make that weird driveby vote on sheep? To distance. Kaito left his vote on sheep instead of voting obvscum Vedith.

Voting mechanically superior option =/= townreading mechanically inferior option, but

[Jingle]

what you actually need to do is to not read previous posts wanting them to make sense with a particular scenario you have in mind, because you can twist nearly everything into making sense with whatever you want. You are prone to doing this all the time.

@nancy

Hopefully you'll actually listen in the postgame.

[Jingle]

Lovely that you're quoting the guy who wanted you dead the most are you frustrated because we are right for the wrong reasons?

because

a) sheep and elsa had interactions that werent scum/scum

b) I liked Jingle's responses to my accusations

c) I believe Gamma is using a Willbooster since he designed the role recently and it makes sense hes testing it

d) Molla is scummier

also another jingle town point that i didnt want to mention is that willbooster was recently made by gamma so it makes total sense hed test it out here

@elsa can you link me some past w games of yours

i could only find v games

probably not an elsa budsy

this is an actual argument for jingle town though and it factored in my changing my mind

My flip advances us zero

Jingle argued about how my reasons for him being scum were not good with logic.
You are just saying "I am not scum" which everyone would say.
Try more.

Who wanted me dead the most? Cause I'm pretty sure Wisdom, the person who caught me two posts into my last scumgame with him was townreading me by the end of the day.

I don't get mad over being lynched. I get mad when people ignore correct play, insinuate I'm bad at mafia theory, or absolutely refuse to reconsider when confronted with contradictory evidence.

[Jingle]

I will in fact guarantee that wisdom would have me in his PoE. He'd also agree with me on the whole, we should play to get the most information before making a potentially game ending flip, but apparently logical thought isn't your strong suit.

I genuinely don't know why I'm still here.

[Jingle]

Two wrong votes vs one wrong vote is largely inconsequential. In LYLO there's nearly always a consensus on who to lynch before the votes are cast, because of the quickhammer problem.

And again, I'm not going to discuss what specific kills would lead me to believe.

[Jingle]

What I think happened from their minds was "Kaito votes Jingle to distance 'cause he's mostly the obvious next flip, so by flipping red he gives town points to Jingle for the next day.", but since we're flipping Jingle first they won't get that plan going

Yeah obviously because Jingle spews him scum with his flip, so distance fail. Jingle also forgets that he eventually became obvtown in ND, due to making REAL pro-town decisions, which no lynch isn’t one - definitely not in this case anyway, He knows, he can’t get anyone other than himself or Kaito lynched and he also knows, scum gets an additional NK in this way.

He even gave us the heads up on his frame Creature plan. Scum will kill Nero and Jingle will rb Creature. When Creature expectedly claims “no results”, scum will try to pudh his mislynch. Jingle dude, you fucked up here by letting us in on the plan before you and Kaito had a chance to execute it. Brilliant.

My scum plans are better than :loldistancing:

The last game I was in with Wisdom he caught me in two posts. In those same two posts I 'spewed' my last partner as town.

[Jingle]

My last scumgame, obviously. The last game with him was deadlines.

[Jingle]

Nah, he’d be calling for your hammer.

Why don't you ask him after you mislynch me?

[Jingle]

FTR, what you described is exactly the type of play I'd make if Creature was my partner. No lynching into a mechanical 1v1 between two scum partners in 5p LYLO is my bread and butter. For proof that that's the way I roll, check xyzzy's fruit vending marathon.

Not that it matters, given we lose when you lynch me, but if I were scum here I'd be setting up my scumpartner to win the LYLO easily.

[Jingle]

read and youll find out

its molla and

kaito

Wisdom would not be backing Jingle’s plan here because he still suspected Kaito.

Suspecting Kaito is irrelevant.

It's not about reads, it's about mechanics.

[Jingle]

I’m not voting no lynch. It’s either you or Kaito.

I agree, you are playing spectacularly poorly.

Good thing No Lynch doesn't need a majority, though.

[Jingle]

FTR, what you described is exactly the type of play I'd make if Creature was my partner. No lynching into a mechanical 1v1 between two scum partners in 5p LYLO is my bread and butter. For proof that that's the way I roll, check xyzzy's fruit vending marathon.

Not that it matters, given we lose when you lynch me, but if I were scum here I'd be setting up my scumpartner to win the LYLO easily.

VOTE KAITO.

No.

[Jingle]

For some reason the forum is eating my attempt to quote myself.

[Jingle]

Good thing No Lynch doesn't need a majority, though.

[Jingle]

Oh cool, it worked that time. :spooky:

[Jingle]

How does No lynch possibly lose the game for town here?

Better, how does no lynch possibly further scum's agenda?

[Jingle]

Yeah but mislynching me if you confirm my role is way harder.

[Jingle]

I'd like to, again, point out that I've said absolutely nothing about my read on Kaito today. This isn't about reads, it's about collecting information.

[Jingle]

Yeah but mislynching me if you confirm my role is way harder.

Yeh, but scum won't let me confirm your role.

FMPOV, either you die or you get to use your action. If you're not a rolecop I'm probably the game ending mislynch anyway. If you die, Nero is conftown in LYLO, still. If you live, you have the ability to conftown any miller claim or pseudo conftown me.

[Jingle]

And if you claim no action Nancy :lollynches: me and we lose.

[Jingle]

I would be onboard with the no lynch idiocy.

First of all, why? This would be excellent scum theater.

Second of all, yup, mechanically superior play is idiocy.

[Jingle]

I’m also not going to discuss my suspicions because no lynching is the right move here and there’s no point to me telling scum who I suspect before they have to make a kill choice.

[Jingle]

So does scum Jingle.

I'm always free with reads unless there's a reason not to be.

[Jingle]

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=77108 -> Town Jingle, withholding reads to avoid outing PRs. Additionally, town Jingle being mean to conftown because the conftown was being dumb and ignoring optimal play. You wanna know how that ended up? A draw. Because the conftown didn't hammer in time after I spent 2 weeks telling him we would draw if he didn't hammer.

[Jingle]

People I would never consider lynching regardless of circumstances: Nero.

Other People: Not Nero.

Is that good enough for you?

Say I come out and say I suspect Nancy PB. Kaito scum now has a reason to let Creature conftown me. Creature scum now has a reason to fake a town result on me. Say I say I suspect Creature. Non Creature scum now has a reason to kill Nero and attempt a 1v1 between me and creature. Say I say I suspect Kaito. Non Kaito scum has no reason to rock the boat. And it doesn't just apply to me.

Say Creat/PB is the scumteam, Creat knows his best play is to conftown Nancy, because conftowning Nancy means her tunnel on me has literally no reason to change. Say Creat is town, creat claiming who he is going to investigate tonight just gives the scumteam the ability to shoot a potential conftown instead of Creature or Nero.

Keeping the scumteam as in the dark as possible is a good idea. I'm not going to die tonight in any universe, so there's no reason for me to worry about getting my reads out in the open now. AND, and possibly most important, there are more things to analyze tomorrow. Did scum shoot Creature or Nero? Who did creature claim to investigate? Are there any lies?

100/100 times, I'm going to attempt to make the important lynches with more information rather than less.

[Jingle]

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=77108 -> Town Jingle, withholding reads to avoid outing PRs. Additionally, town Jingle being mean to conftown because the conftown was being dumb and ignoring optimal play. You wanna know how that ended up? A draw. Because the conftown didn't hammer in time after I spent 2 weeks telling him we would draw if he didn't hammer.

So does scum Jingle.

I'm always free with reads unless I’m scum.

FIFY

[Jingle]

Yeah, the only reason I haven't self voted is that it would literally be gamethrowing to self hammer in MYLO.

[Jingle]

I swear if we lose this game to this,

all of you should feel really bad.

FTFY.

[Jingle]

Hey look. Creature also thinks my posts today are reasonable. It's like I make sense or something.

[Jingle]

close to conftown

If it helps, FMPOV you're conftown. From everyone else's PoV you'd have to be my partner.

[Jingle]

Which... means no lynch is no longer viable.

UNVOTE:

[Jingle]

VOTE: Kaito

[Jingle]

Uggg Jingle that

post

ISO is townie as fuck not gonna lie

FTFY

And I honestly don't know which one of you it is. I just know that it has to be one of you FMPOV. I get that I'm gonna lose here, but I don't really feel bad losing to whichever one of you it is. Hence, lynch the partner first.

[Jingle]

close to conftown

If it helps, FMPOV you're conftown. From everyone else's PoV you'd have to be my partner.

???

If you were scum you'd have hammered me. Everyone else can assume that you didn't hammer because we're partners, but I'm L-1 and you didn't hammer.

[Jingle]

Hence, lynch the partner first.

[Jingle]

@Nancy

I think the chance of Jingle winning the 1v1 against me is basically zero now.

Literally 0. Still can't no lynch because you just die.

[Jingle]

I'm confused about the meaning of the numbers in parentheses in the VC.

[Jingle]

I'm confused about the meaning of the numbers in parentheses in the VC.

They indicate postcount for the player this dayphase. Jingle (58) means you have made 58 posts since daybreak.

Lies. This is my 60th post.

[Jingle]

Tieing nancy.

[Jingle]

beating nancy.

[Jingle]

Alright, can we end the day already? I'm ready to lose and if we don't Nancy might post a bunch and take back the top posting spot.

[Jingle]

No lynching isn't optimal play from your point of view, it's the play that kills creature and gaurantees my lynch with you + nero + nancy

Which is the mechanically wrong play

Bye

Reading is tech.

[Jingle]

what?

[Jingle]

Reposting the same nonsense doesn't actually help. What do you mean?

[Jingle]

Like, best I can tell is that you're saying if you mislynch me and we don't lose you can't be scum. Which is insane, because the only way to prove that is by risking a game loss.

[Jingle]

Yes?

[Jingle]

There are six alive. 4 town vs 2 scum. How can you not be scum?

[Jingle]

I haven't forgotten.

[Jingle]

Okay? There’s still probably two scum balance wise anyway.

[Jingle]

Yup. I definitely ignore optimal play. And expecting me to is reasonable.

[Jingle]

Still working the Creature scum angle, I see.

Yes Nancy. Saying Creature is conftown is my way of convincing you Creature is scum. You've caught me. Brilliant.

[Jingle]

That’s why he dropped the no lynch thing.

No, I dropped the no lynch thing because Creature became conftown, meaning there's no chance he gets useful results tonight and the only result of no lynching is killing Creature.

[Jingle]

As Kaito said, if Jingle is town and the game continues, Kaito is conftown.

Or, more likely, if Jingle is town and gets lynched, the game ends in a scumwin.

[Jingle]

If you're town, and you die, there cannot be two scum.

Or the game ends.

I'm not sure how what you're saying is in any way relevant given that you're basically saying "Let's potentially hand me the game to prove I'm not scum!"

Let me try. If everyone else gets themselves modkilled and town wins, I can't be scum.

[Jingle]

As Kaito said, if Jingle is town and the game continues, Kaito is conftown.

Or, more likely, if Jingle is town and gets lynched, the game ends in a scumwin.

The only way that could be true is Kaito partnered with me or Nancy and I've already stated that's impossible from my PoV. Or Nancy partnered with me but I haven't seen nobody think of that

Well, given that what's impossible from your PoV is necessarily true from mine, we've reached an impass.

[Jingle]

There aren't associatives that point to me being jingle's scum partner, quite the opposite, you've just been biased all game

Agressively wrong.

[Jingle]

If game doesn’t end, I’m still lynching Kaito. I don’t believe PB is scum.

If the game doesn't end with my lynch, Kaito would be conftown.

[Jingle]

Yeah I know, that's why I said he could be going incognito until the end when needed

Sk not killing anyone seems highly unlikely and anti-wincon, I think Kaito’s just a goon.

Agreed. Pretty sure mastina's the only person who would actually holster as SK for this long.

[Jingle]

drunk AF, time to wreck this shit.

[Jingle]

I'm lynching jingle because Maki didn't die at night, and that only happens if she targets someone who is scum or a miller

Glad this only came up in MYLO. That's totes convincing.

[Jingle]

There aren't associatives that point to me being jingle's scum partner, quite the opposite, you've just been biased all game

Agressively wrong.

There are associatives that point to us being scum together? Tell me more?

quoted wrong thing. Think it was something about lynching you mechanically being wrong. FMPOV there's three potential teams and you're in two of them.

[Jingle]

Hey Jingle

If you're pushing this two scum angle... who is scum right now?

You and Nanc or PB. Purty obvious. Next question can be about the color of the sky or the first letter in my name, that'll get us just as far.

[Jingle]

I am of the belief that there is only 1 scum remaining

Whyfore art though Romulus?

[Jingle]

Dunno. If I was scum I'd pretend to have a clue. Honestly, I think I get mislynched and lose regardless.

[Jingle]

I'm lynching jingle because Maki didn't die at night, and that only happens if she targets someone who is scum or a miller

Glad this only came up in MYLO. That's totes convincing.

I mentioned it numerous times actually, and that's the reason I was voting you yesterday

I'm pretty sure I asked about missing kills and it didn't come up. Or can you quote something to prove me wrong?

[Jingle]

So... Maki was lynched and so inverse weak means nothing. How does that mean I should be lynched?

[Jingle]

Again, no lynch was optimal for town until creat became conftown. There was literally no way it could possily help scum, and no one has argued how that isn't true with any evidence.

[Jingle]

It's time for votes

Agreed.

[Jingle]

No, it was neveroptimal. Only you believed that.

Only me. And Creature. And Nero. And anyone who isn't shoving their fingers in their ears and going 'lalalalalalalala'. But you can continue to believe not attempting to get additional information is optimal, because it really doesn't matter anymore.

You should probably stop trying to make mechanical arguments though.

[Jingle]

No lynching means an NK and no scum lynch. Fact: Town has a role cop, a backup role cop, a doc/roleblocker, a desperate neighbour vs scum: 1 goon, 1 informed scum and what, just another goon? Not bloody likely. I don’t believe town has a willibooster on top of all that and that’s why you were so certain Creature would get no results and why didn’t you use your ability on Wisdom the night before last, if you’re not lying? Because you’re a scum roleblocker who rb’d Wisdom and was planning to do the same to Creature. There is no valid reason that Wisdom should have ever been blocked, if anything you claim about your role is the truth. You should have been 100% on our town role cop but you were, but as a roleblocker. You never rolestopped Clem, that was a lie, wasn’t it?

First of all, we've already gone over this. Protective role>priority than investigative, especially if you're on evens. I assumed Clem had shots left because I didn't see any reference to him being limited shot.

Second of all, I agree that scum probably has two more members based on the power town has.

Third of all, lets look at the potential results of no lynching at the beginning of the day.

Fourth, the fact that I'm the only claimed Boon Bank role supports my claim.

No Lynch:

Scum Kill Creature-> Creature, regardless of your beliefs and opinions was not confirmed, therefore was a potential mislynch for scum. Killing him means that Nero, who was actually conftown survived an extra day and we had a smaller lynch pool in LYLO. Mathematically that changes the odds of a scum lynch, giving us an additional 10% chance to lynch scum.

Scum Kill Nero-> I'm claimed to be willboosting Creature. What that means is that either Creature gets a result, or we know, 100% that either me or Creature are scum. You can say all you want that I'm trying to use that to frame Creature, but consider that for a moment. You're arguing that I, as someone already heavily suspected, am attempting to set up a 1v1 between myself and a universal townread. Mathematically, even if that 1v1 did happen, it also raises our chances of lynching scum 10%. If the 1v1 didn't happen, which is a far more sane assumption, Creature not dying gives a result. Either a guilty or innocent on you or PB, or a guilty or soft innocent on me. If Creature got an innocent it raises the probability of a scum lynch 10%. If he got a guilty it raises the probability of a scum lynch 10% (50% creat lying, 50% creat telling the truth.)

So, at the beginning of the day, No Lynching, regardless of the outcome objectively raised the chance that we wouldn't lose outright by 10%. And thus is optimal. That changed when Creature conftowned, because now there's no reason for scum to keep him alive.

[Jingle]

@Nero. I'm at L-1 with only the conftown not voting me. FMPOV, it's Kaito and one of PB/ND. We probably lose. I don't think there'e any point in drawing this out, so you should just pick whether you believe I'm town or not and get this show on the road.

[Jingle]

How can you possibly be town here and ignore the fact, that I was the counterwagon to flipped scum?

I have a town role PM. Balance says there are two scum remaining. Nero is conftown. Creature is conftown. I have independent reasons to townread both you and PB. Therefore, one of the reads that isn't confirmed to be true HAS to be wrong.

[Jingle]

Didn't hammer L-1 me at MYLO.

If he's scum, he's scum with me. Given that I'm not scum...

[Jingle]

Yeah, I'm going to assume he would have hammered after it was pointed out that not hammering made him conftown.

[Jingle]

If there's only one scum left this setup is all sorts of unbalanced.

[Jingle]

Why are we not no lynching again?

Creature would just die. He will never be lynched before me, and lynching me wins the game for scum. So, because he can't possibly be mislynched and he CAN presumably get incriminating results, Scum will keep him alive.

Because no lynching doesn't increase our chance of hitting scum by shrinking the lynch pool AND it doesn't net any PR information we shouldn't no lynch until we're out of conftown. Or... more accurately, we should never no lynch.

[Jingle]

Cause I was hoping to stop a kill. Or at least assist in stopping a kill.

[Jingle]

3 days, people.

[Jingle]

I already explained why I'd never claim willbooster as enchantress to Wisdom yesterday, FWIW.

:shrugs: I'm all argued out though. You do you.

[Jingle]

Sorry @Kaito, thank God Jingle scummed it up with that no lynch nonsense.

Wow, so that means sheep roles scum back to back, 3 games in a row.

Wrong.

Basically, your argument was "We shouldn't use a free cop, because I'm sure all of my reads are accurate." Just because it didn't bite you in the ass, doesn't mean that no lynching wasn't optimal.

You were totally right about me not wanting to talk about reads though, I couldn't admit that everyone there was town and I wasn't ever going to read the thread enough to case someone.

[Jingle]

Jingle is 511

Ouch.