Newbie 1916: Epic Music [Game Over!]

[Skellen]

Not a cat person, I am allergic to you.

VOTE: CatStar

[Skellen]

1. What is your experience at Mafia
2. How do you play as town
3. How do you play as scum
4. What do you think gives away a player as scum or town

1. Played only offline games, have now one "newbie" game here under my belt which transformed due to replacements into a SE game. Confronted me with many unusual situations, but thus a great learning experience.
2. Eh, I just play. I like figuring things out and as town you have nothing to lose so no point in holding back, thus I like this more. I try to gather as many informations as I can and see where it leads to.
3. Never rolled scum, so no idea. Offline I am terrible as I am no good at lying and can't even keep a poker face for ten seconds. People say I tend to be more passive and unmotivated which probably fits given the lack on necessity to figure things out.
4. I look for consistencies and inconsistencies, at one point scum is bound to make mistakes if they get engaged enough. Normally. Of course looking for obvious scumtells like rolefishing etc. My first game made me reevaluate some things though, but I don't want to go into specifics, no need to write a manual for scum how to avoid getting scumread. What gives town away to me depends on how comprehensible their play is to me and if I can see where their thoughts are coming from, even if I should disagree with some thoughts.

[Skellen]

@flippy - why skellen over people you had played with/people who had posted?

Even although the question was addressed at flippy, why would it matter if he doesn't vote people he has played with? And if it is a bothersome thing to vote people who hadn't posted yet, why are you not addressing this then to CatStar too who is the only one who is still voting the one player who hasn't even picked up his role PM according to Frozen?

PEdit: Ah, you probably didn't do the latter because you have some history with flippy and Clem going by your recent post and thus only addressed them. But still.

I just like to vote people that haven’t been voted yet in my RVS

I already wondered about this last game kind of, but why not voting people who already have one vote? If we all circle vote ourselves we are basically back at start, just with everyone having one vote instead of zero. If the point of RVS is to get people talking or pressure them, then particularly the latter seems pointless to me with that mindset.

[Skellen]

@37
I do think RVS serves a point, one I will talk about after RVS if you remind me - I dont want to undermine it now by explaining how I use it. In response to your direct question, I dont mind voting people who havent voted as much. But people do tend to vote people they know, as a way of semi-friendly greeting. So I found Flippy's vote in particular odd, in a way I didnt find CatStar's (whose vote was consistent with that rule of thumb). On your general point, several players encourage RVS to become random wagonning stage, so you can get data on how people react under pressure and who joins/pushes against. I dont have views either way.

I see, I will admit I am not that familiar with those RVS tendencies, but I get your stance in this matter and I see where you are going with it so I am fine with that.

Ah, I think you misunderstood my statement about RVS a little bit. Or I phrased it poorly, whatever. It wasn't meant as general question. I don't deny the point in RVS and there can be some merit to it, I actually agree with what you said. I was more challenging flippy's attitude only to vote people who haven't been voted yet.

While I am at it and I can't find anything on the wiki about that an IC question: Is pocketing only something done by scum or is it independent from the alignment? To be frank I almost snapvoted Clem for #40 due to past game experience where it was always associated with scum play.

And since we are talking about Clem and RVS and you are familiar with him. What do you think of him keeping himself away from RVS so far? What makes him different from flippy who you criticize for not voting you but someone else while Clem simply doesn't vote?

[Skellen]

@skellen — why not snap vote clem?

also, what is “pocketing” am I missing something ? just like buddying or something else

Which is exactly why I asked first as I am not so sure about it myself. I guess kind of like buddying, I learned that it the way that scum attempts to get with a town player at such good terms that the townie finally starts to advocate for said scum. It's just that blatant by Clem.

[Skellen]

1. Pocketing as an actual thing can only come from scum. It means to give town (generally leaders/influences) town reads in the hope of receiving the same. But as you noted later in thread, Clem's explicit use of the word in 40 is "just that blatant." Put another way, it is too blatant to be a scumslip, at least from a player as good as Clem. His use of it here is a NAI joke consistent with the personality in his avatar. I took it as a way of sharing a townread on you and me with the board, but not as informative of his own alignment.

2. I wont get AI indicative data on pressuring Clem. He will just joke it off. Flippy I might learn something from. Clem will join wagons when asked to, but tends to withhold his real views until wagons actually start smelling like they might lead to rope.

1. Well yeah, I interpreted his post also like that, the way he phrased that still strikes me as weird, why even doing it so ambigious? I got by your little interaction with him that this might be his thing in terms of play style, therefore I am hesitating. Guess I will give it the benefit of doubt for now and watch where he goes with that, however personally I am not really fond of the "too scummy to be scum" card as it is a good way to cause confusion.

2. Alright. What you are saying here makes sense in context of Clem's seemingly usual play. But then I wonder why you even voted Clem in the first place? If you know how Clem will behave anyway and that it would lead nowhere (at least only considering Clem himself) why not going for another player you are familiar with? To clarify I get that you going after flippy and randomvoting Clem are two different pair of shoes. But it looks a bit like casually throwing the randomvote away considering your stance on Clem.

@Lich:
Looks like you forgot to answer teacher's other question regarding the vote in #50?

[Skellen]

1. It’s not a too scummy to be scum comment. I don’t think it is scummy. (Not town either, just NAI, like most things). As a broader point though, I do have a different take than some on too scummy to be scum. If only scum did scummy things, mafia would be a much easier game to play. Look at what happened to Loop last game for you. In one of my recent games, a town PR lolhammered a known-to-them town as a way to avoid the nk. So sometimes there can be town reasons to appear scummy.

2. My vote on Clem was an expression of affection. I genuinely like and enjoy playing w him - it’s both funny and he has good reads. Overall, my view on him is akin to his likely view on me: I’m willing to give him space to do his thing, but if his actual views when they are expressed are really discordant or if we have reached Day three without scum blood and he is still alive, I will start to burden of proficiency him.

Wha.. wait, did you actually read that game? Well, that saves time as you should be aware then why I am this time more cautious about this point. It isn't a knockout criterion for me which is why I preferred to watch his recent posts as they give me a more positive impression of him. I don't disagree about the game theory stuff, it depends on the situation.

I feel like you just dodged the core of my question smoothly here when I think about your comment on flippy's vote, but it is kind of a good answer nonetheless. It's probably more a thing that we two have a different mindset in this regard so I am willing to leave it at that with this.

[Skellen]

I do not believe that forgetting his townreads is a significant mark against him.

However he still has to explain how his reads changed. Particularly his change on his read on roomy is odd. He hasn't even posted between Lich's two posts, there was nothing that would have given him reason to change his mind. Unless he reread the few posts of roomy, but I doubt there was such a significant detail that he would back down on his read. Something like that implies to me a lack of interest.

I share roomy's doubts about Lich though. Lich striked me yesterday already as odd, but that was more because he seemed so reactionary and awkward with his posts. Awkward because he just threw some of his posts like that in the thread without any interaction as if he just wants to show that he contributes something. I kind of missed and still miss any initiative from his side. Not sure about teacher's accusation that he copied his townreads as that would only apply to the roomy read as far as I know. I also thought as Birdy that it looks more like a newbie who has no real clue how to fit in.

On the other hand #68 and #72 look so weird. When I first read that it seemed to me like someone who reacted like he got caught. I mean he should know what he is doing.

[Skellen]

I'm not sure what I got from reading people's self meta other than sending me into a WIFOM spin.

I had a slight suspicion about roomy but found 79 good, open reasoning and open about being unsure and why continuing with their vote.

Personally I think the issue with WIFOM is to not overthink anything otherwise it will never lead you anywhere.

What was your slight suspicion about roomy before?

[Skellen]

Not sure about teacher's accusation that he copied his townreads as that would only apply to the roomy read as far as I know.

I am dumb, Clem townread me first with his pocket comment of course. I stand corrected before the teacher got any chance to correct me.

[Skellen]

Im actually not ok with leaving it, since there is an off chance this comment could be laying the seed for a later push if need be. What was the core of your question? I understood it to be why vote Clemency. The answer, as given, was to give a funny tip of my hat to him, who had just welcomed me as well. But if Im missing something, I dont mind going back over it.

Alright. I think to clarify it helps referring to your post #38. Knowing why you voted Clem was one point but basically I kind of had an idea through the linked post. What is bothering me was the second question in #55. In combination with #38: On one hand you found flippy's vote on me odd because he didn't go after you who should be a good RVS target by his scum criteria (trying too hard) because you are a try-hard. On the other hand you voted Clem although you said yourself in #48 that you won't get any AI indicative data through pressuring him. That feels kind of inconsequent. If I compare these two statements I can't help but feel that it looks odd to me.

However I also remembered that you stated also in #38 that the RVS is a way of semi-friendly greeting, which is why your answer to me looks in character in my eyes and I decided to leave it at that as we both just approach this with a different mindset (since you read part of my meta you probably have a small grip on my way of thinking/personality, so you might know that anyway). Although if you feel free to resolve that I wouldn't mind.

[Skellen]

Want me to jump in or to let CatStar speak?

Sure, go on.

Kind of hoped CatStar would have elaborated more on this, I figure she meant his questions towards Clem/teacher?

[Skellen]

I cut the above to the core of what I wanted to talk about. The progression from 68 to 72 didnt really bother me. On the other hand, the progression in 64, 66, and 68 bothered me quite a bit, particularly 66 to 68. In 66, Lich tries to DEFEND the read change as "regression to the mean

to be honest.

-- i.e., an explicit claim that the read change was intentional and justifiable, with an ATE of credibility. Just two hours later in 68, when confronted with further suspicion, Lich abandons the defense, saying it was an "

accidental

slip." In other words, 68 admits 66 was a cover-up, one made while claiming honesty.

At bottom I am of two minds. I can see where you all are coming from with newb fitting in. I also am having difficulty believing newb!scum would so abruptly about face and confess error without some guidance that the position was indefensible, and such guidance was unlikely at an off-peak hour. At the same time, the specific wording of these posts is bugging me.

@Skellen, I do view 68 and 72 as answering how his reads changed -- they were soft towns that he did not really feel. To me thats another mark against him, making blendy reads that he didnt feel to create some presence. I am nowhere approaching high-confidence, but I dont view 72 and after as redeeming in the way some other players have suggested.

First paragraph: Ah, that's a good catch. I agree with that, that doesn't look good. Personally I was more bothered in #72 by his line how he slipped because he flubbed his townreads back to neutral without any evidence. That doesn't read like something that would a townie say imo. It is not unusual to take back your reads or change your opinion, but saying something like not having any evidence for changing his mind is weird, that looks like he didn't had any thought process when he came up with his reads. You basically already said that with mentioning his weird wording. If he would have said it was just a change by guts, that wouldn't even be a thing.

Second: I disagree that such behaviour would speak against scum!Lich. If we assume scum!Lich it would actually make sense that no one is there for him for guidance and he is kind of lost. We have after all some inactives/"semi-actives". However that would go too far into the speculative direction as we don't even have a clue about Lich's alignment at the moment, but it's imo the best explanation why scum!Lich would act like he is right now.

[Skellen]

I mean after #72 he is just talking himself more into trouble.

I have nothing to justify Skellen being neutral now but unconfidence will be the death of me so I must stay strong.

He's not NAI or scum, that's for sure.

Now maybe I am failing here because English is not my native language, but what is he saying here? I am no scum, I am no NAI (thus null I guess?), he can't justify me being neutral (then why even saying this?), but I am also no town as he repeated again. So what... am I even now at this point?

I am indecisive if chaotic neutral or chaotic evil with this one. His posts after #72 didn't looked better.

[Skellen]

Also UNVOTE: CatStar

See no reason to keep her on L-2 and particularly over Lich at this point. Would still like to hear more from her.

Also Birdy as I liked his entrance into the game. I liked that he took in #78 a clear stance.

[Skellen]

I wouldn't know either.

You on the other hand are going to L-2 for now. VOTE: Lich

I am starting to believe that you are purposely messing around with us. It's bothering me for a while that I always see you lurking here yet nothing is coming from you unless there is talk about you. Scum or clueless town, I want to see more initiative from you. I see roomy already asked you something. Since activity seems to be one of your greater criteria for reading people I would like to hear your opinion on teacher in one or two sentences as he is the most active player here.

PEdit: Ok and what makes you see CatStar as the most scummiest person at the moment?

@roomy:
I support the question about teacher's conclusions from his conversation with Lich. It ended a bit abrupt considering Lich's posts just got more confusing. As for the arguments he isn't believing in, would you like to show which posts you mean in particular as example?

[Skellen]

Uwah... have to miss out for one day once and then we get a replacement and so much new stuff to catch up. A warm welcome for urap. It's late and I am sleepy, try to cover what I can.

I don't get the logic behind your vote. Seems reactionary to me. This is consistent considering you're a No Result.

Of course you don't get it and it comes surprising for you if you apparently don't bother to read what I wrote. I wrote in like 3-4 posts what bothered me about you. CatStar called you already out on that and I don't like to parrot myself. That aside the chaotic neutral/evil thing wasn't a question it's where I see you. In the beginning I was inclined to lean on a struggling newbie but as your posts got worse, especially once you got pressured more, I am more leaning on scum for you. The point is I simply can't see a town agenda behind you. You don't give me the impression you are trying to win for town, you never act or persuade any cases on your own, only react while being the most active lurker here and that mostly defensive. Even your vote was defensive. You are playing to survive not to catch the bad guys.
When I voted you up to L-2 one of my main intentions were to pressure you to come out of your shell. After all I asked you twice to show more initiative from your side. It's like Clem said somewhere in the beginning, people tend to show their true colors once the stakes get raised when they are put on L-2/L-1. And guess who instantly voted with CatStar exactly the person who was next to him in the votecount (and declared her as his scumread before). It's especially questionable considering that you accused her of active lurking while there were people like flippy and Birdy who even contributed less and dodged being replaced with small posts. What's your thoughts on them? What makes them less suspicious in your eyes?

If Skellen's read were to deresolve it would most likely become scum, not town.

It doesn't help that you continue to be vague like this in your posts that give me the impression you are trying to avoid confrontation. "If, were, would" Either you see me as neutral/no result/banana/whatever or scum, I can deal with both, but saying if you would deresolve your neutral read I would be scum makes no sense.

[Skellen]

@skellen: I see your point about seeing scum partners as a bit wifom at this point, but based on interactions thus far who could you see being buddies with TL?

Not sure why you ask that considering I basically implied that in my post you are referring to with mentioning a certain group. After all most of his interactions are with players who are scumreading him (early). It's more a possibility why scum!Lich would run wild as he did so far. He hasn't flipped yet though, so looking for his buddies has no point.

[Skellen]

To the extent it helps, I was only ever going to RVS Clem once I saw the playerlist. A vote on Flippy would produce data, so I wanted to save any vote on him for when it would have meaning. I didnt vote him when I put up 36 because I wanted him to react to the question without additional pressure. Does that resolve it?

Yes, that's enough. That was what I was looking for, although at this point it just confirms the positive impression I have formed up in our exchange.

[Skellen]

Paranoia about teacher is pretty meh tho. Teacher feels to me like the type of player one should just allow to be obv!town until he's eloquently pushing a bad argument. I haven't read any of his scum games, but his play is too effortful to replicate as scum without making some ill-considered arguments along the way.

I disagree, especially regarding stronger players like teacher it's the more important to get a grip on them and an understanding how they think soon enough to test out if the effort behind the play really is just a replica. Otherwise it will just push eventual problems back to later days, at worst lylo situations. Although this might be one of these experience things.

While you voted Lich up to L-1 temporarily so I wonder what gives you confidence in your vote? You just said his slot is the scummiest. It interests me mostly because of the doubts some of us have that he is in the end just a loose newbtownie.

[Skellen]

Yeah no, that's the end for me. Too sleepy~. Will save my questions for flippy for tomorrow when he has posted more.

Considering that Birdy is most likely about to get replaced we should avoid the hammer until we have heard from said replacement.

Also I would like to hear from CatStar who she is scumreading or scmleaning at least. Just realized we haven't heard anything in that direction from here yet besides the small roomy suspicion that she dismissed quickly.

[Skellen]

@flippy:
I would also agree with urap regarding your Clem read. He is kind of running low on the radar for me, what gives you the same town vibes from him like in your last game?

There is one thing that has been bugging me. Why did you vote Lich instantly up to L-1 when you were done with skimming through the thread after roomy unvoted to avoid a premature hammer considering Clem has declared his intent to hammer Lich before roomy's unvote? There were after all a few reasons to not end the day yet (well mostly you and the Birdy slot).

[Skellen]

Skellen tries to defend her vote in 167 saying the question wasn't even a question and continuing to push the idea I'm scum.

Of course I get back at you when you feel to step into the thread and throw a false accusation at me like in #128. I just like how you ignore the rest of my post you referred to (again) and just cherrypick the "question trap". I honestly can't follow on this one, it's imo pretty straight forward stated by me.

I will just ask again what I already did in my older post. Why did you vote CatStar over flippy or Birdy when both were worse lurkers than her at that point? And what are you thinking of flippy now, particularly in context of what I pointed out in #205? I know you read him as neutral, thus you didn't write anything about him, but I would still like to hear one or two sentences from you about him.

[Skellen]

im the cop, u r a person 2 is a member of the mafia.
boom bang

Heh, good one! I like your choice the more because that clears two slots I was planning to examine more for Day 2 anyway. I just would have wished that you would hold back the claim for longer so that urap would have posted for longer unaware of your investigation so that we would get more clues to find his partner. However we have now the counterclaim situation.

One question though. You were planning on making a case on roomy for Day 2 according to #259. What canged your mind that you would take urap over roomy?

That aside I am also more inclined to believe good over urap. urap's claim sounds logical, but good has the advantage of claiming first. The only scenario where I could see good being scum would be us being in column B and scum has the Rolecop and investigated Cop!urap and decided to lynch him via quick fake claim. But then it would have been easier to just wait for the next night and kill urap off as in column B there is no danger of a doctor or jailkeeper that could prevent the kill as there the Cop only works with the tracker. And Cop!urap would reveal his night result anyway to town if he would be forced to counterclaim. Yeah, I see no reason why it would be a smart move to do this, at the moment I think believing good's claim seems to be the right choice.
Or is this actually a legit tactic used by scum to snipe out power roles at day? I still think it's dumb. And urap's posts at Day 1 don't give me the vibes of him being a PR (and cop, so that scum could guess it to do this).

[Skellen]

This cannot be SvS because of jailkeepers. Of course, any jail keeper should claim immediately.

Whichever one is gambiting, the existence of the gambit suggests we are likely in column A with a role blocker, so no mass claim makes sense.

Yes, the SvS is basically confirmed if we actually have a jailkeeper. If it is SvS and we are in a Cop setup then we would have a "third" Cop. I think the only possible setups where SvS with Cop claims could work for scum are in row 3 Neapolitan/doctor and tracker/doctor. But does a SvS fake claim duel at Day 2 make any sense? Considering even although scum knows which column we are in it is also quite a gamble for Day 2. It can still be busted easily at Day 3 or even already in the second night.

Another point that speaks for good's claim is imo the way the claims were done. good just came in like "Hey, I am Cop, urap is scum. Bye". Considering he has as pretty late replacement no town cred I would think scum would try more to make it believable. I stick with it, everything suggests to me that good is the good guy here.

[Skellen]

Woo, I get a place in the list of those we were able to beat Frozen in claiming the page tops!

[Skellen]

if i find a scum, i'll tell you

Another reason to believe good.

Indeed, another point for good. In contrast the only thing that hints for a PR in urap's ISO is his entrance post where he is glad that he got that slot. But that is a vague statement and can be interpreted in multiple ways (and is imo more directed at you, Clem and flippy).

The only thing that makes me wonder about urap is his mass claim comment that came in before good's claim. I can see the idea behind that with scum!urap and when scum has the roleblocker to get both PR in one swoop but #271 kind of reads like he intended to fake claim anyway. But in that case it would ultimately lead to his lynch at Day 3 at latest if he would be successful. There would always be the danger of being in a setup with a jailkeeper or another Cop (who counterclaims then) which would always mean death for him. So again a gamble. I know scum wants to rolehunt and get the PR's out of the game as fast as possible but as Clem said, a 1 for 1 trade is in the end better for town, especially if the scum gets lynched first.

On the other hand I don't think the mass claim idea would have been that good this early anyway assuming town!urap.

[Skellen]

This was a weird game. The total opposite of my first game. Even with the Lich mislynch I felt after the first day like most of the players I engaged with were town, which kind of left the "inactive" trio and that resolved super fast with good's claim and spot-on investigation.

Also thanks for modding Frozen, I actually enjoyed listenting to the songs in your posts. These page top steals though, that's even on a different level than Nauci.