Are endgamed players dead

[Varsoon]

I'm of the mind it entirely depends on the win condition present.

I often use equal numbers sort of wincons, so in my games, the last town players aren't dead, but they have lost. I do this mainly because I think if you're a vig or a bulletproof townie left at the end of a game you've otherwise lost, your role doesn't save you from having lost the game of mafia.

However, I am under the impression that most games use a 'No remaining town players or nothing can prevent this' wincon, in which case, yes, the end-gamed players ARE dead because 'nothing can prevent this' endgaming is just hitting a fast-forward button to an eventual outcome.

[Varsoon]

For purely flavor reasons, I also like the idea of the villains subjugating the culled population instead of just murdering the rest of them.
For stuff like Protomen Mafia, this was fairly integral to the flavor--the town represented an uprising of the population against oppressors; once properly quelled, that uprising would be done with and there would be survivors, but they lost.

[Varsoon]

1. There is no time between. Being 'endgamed' just means that the conclusion of victory for Mafia is inevitable, and so the game is ended as if that victory had been achieved.
2. There is definitely a distinction between being killed during one of the game's night phases and being endgamed; in both instances you are dead, though.

The major hiccup in considering end-gamed players 'dead' is when certain abilities trigger on death that could prevent a mafia auto-success. Games that are designed well (Mafia wincons being based on flat ratios rather than 'killing all the town' helps) do not run into this problem.

A survivor is not end-gamed.
A survivor that is alive when the game ends receives a victory and, notably, does not die at endgame. They are a survivor, after all.

[Varsoon]

The definition for end-gamed that I've settled on and accepted: The result of a game-state where the non-mafia players are unable to, through their votes and roles alone, eliminate the mafia faction--all non-mafia players are killed in order to reflect the inevitable outcome of the game.

[Varsoon]

Take all that with a grain of salt, as recent events have reflected that I am definitely illiterate and incapable of properly evaluating game expectations based on clear rulesets.

[Varsoon]

I get that you're saying End-Game is a state that doesn't necessarily reflect player deaths because those deaths were not played out by actual player action, but, as moderator, I treat them mechanically the same (for the most part).

[Varsoon]

Guess I'm gonna just return to this post I made earlier and settle on 'It depends on the moderator',

I'm of the mind it entirely depends on the win condition present.

I often use equal numbers sort of wincons, so in my games, the last town players aren't dead, but they have lost. I do this mainly because I think if you're a vig or a bulletproof townie left at the end of a game you've otherwise lost, your role doesn't save you from having lost the game of mafia.

However, I am under the impression that most games use a 'No remaining town players or nothing can prevent this' wincon, in which case, yes, the end-gamed players ARE dead because 'nothing can prevent this' endgaming is just hitting a fast-forward button to an eventual outcome.

[Varsoon]

Yeah, typically, when a mod says 'these players were end-gamed', that reads to me as shorthand for 'were killed because it was the only possible outcome based on numbers'.

[Varsoon]

Yeah, from a flavor PoV I think it's more interesting if they are alive. From a mechanical PoV and considering the game as death or not is something the player really has to reconcile. It's obviously not a death by choice of the scum team, as you were kept alive until endgame for whatever reason, but it is a loss all the same and had the game played out the scum team would have killed you so it's big shrugs.

[Varsoon]

I can somewhat get the idea of feeling differently over "I am a player scum killed on N1' versus "I am a player scum intentionally left alive the whole game' but if I eat a loss, I eat a loss all the same.