no deadlines mafia [game over]

[Varsoon]

Woah woah guys these votes
We have no deadlines
What's the rush?

Also, I'm in a PT with Party Boat, Xtoxm, and Nancy Drew 39.
This PT began before gamestart.
We've currently got about 15 posts in there.
It's fairly chill.
That's all I wanted to say.

[Varsoon]

Everyone posted there but Party Boat.
We've generally agreed to stick to the main game thread for most discussion.

[Varsoon]

I'm liable to believe that at least one of the four people in my PT is scum, which is why I decided to out the PT in the first place.
That said, it's a fallacy to assume that the same ratio of town to scum in the main thread applies to any PT, so I'd prefer we didn't hunt out of that PT group.

VOTE: Profii

[Varsoon]

It kinda is.
How else am I gonna have discussions about smash bros if you smash my neighborhood bros?

[Varsoon]

'cus it's a fallacy to assume the same ratios exist within a neighborhood.
If we're all town in there and I make the mistake of assuming one of us is scum, then I have a 100% chance of mislynching if I concentrate there, whereas the game thread ALWAYS has the assured setup ratio.
And I know if I mislynch in there I'll sunk cost it and keep lynching in there
and if they all flip town then I know I'm up shit creek for being the last one left.
Does that make sense?

[Varsoon]

Like I'm just gonna do my reads based on the game thread and if it happens to be that one of the people in my 'hood is scum based on that, it happens.
Not gonna force a pool tho.

[Varsoon]

Yes
Emerging like beautiful butterflies from the paralyzing cocoon of RVS
Our metamorphosis is divine

Wait
hold on
Isn't Porkens in this game?

[Varsoon]

Convince me not to policy lynch Porkens pls.

[Varsoon]

Profii supports lynching one of (((us))))

[Varsoon]

Wheh.
Porkens replaced out.

Anyway; Just because I think THERE MIGHT BE SCUM in our hood doesn't mean I think that lynching in a pool of ONLY THE HOOD helps us at all.

Basically, we've got 24 players.
Assuming singleball (please mod be singleball--I know my wincon indicates multiple teams, but please, please mod) and a normal 1/4 ratio, that means that if we lynch out of the game thread of players, we have an assured 1/4 chance of hitting scum, of which there are 6 players.

If we try to force a pool of lynches out of the neighborhood, we run into a handful of issues:
1. We don't have the guarantee of the same ratio, so way may literally hit no scum.
2. We run the risk of conf-biasing and lynching multiple town
3. We can't know if there's only one scum there, so even if we lynch once from it and hit scum, it doesn't solve the hood.
4. Players can insist on lynching from the hood pool as policy and avoid engaging elsewhere.
5. Even if the hood follows the same ratio that the game thread does with regard to scum to town (1/4), all these other problems exist and, at best, we trade 3 town lives for 1 scum life, which doesn't win us the game.

So I don't really see why outting the hood but suggesting lynching independent of its existence makes me scum.
I think ya'll voting me are either
1. Scum who are eager to see me flip town, pushing the fallacy that there'd be a higher chance of hitting scum if we just keep lynching out of the hood pool
2. Town who don't grasp what I'm saying here/want to pressure me.

But ayyy

[Varsoon]

Clearly just trying to protect my own ass, tho.

Profii doesn't even consider my post from a town PoV.
Like
Of course I out the hood--I shouldn't trust it, there COULD be scum there
Of course I don't insist on hunting in the hood--I shouldn't, the same ratios of the game thread ARE NOT mod-confirmed

It's dat simple.

[Varsoon]

Who wants to see a magic trick?

..me?

[Varsoon]

...now that I re-read, I think the trick was just that he's a triple voter. :/
THAT'S NOT MAGIC

[Varsoon]

@Gamma: I did eventually release all the PTs, with exception of the setup creation PT, I believe.

[Varsoon]

I am a mod known for muh PTs.

[Varsoon]

He's talking about a game I ran.
Are you talking about when they did the PARLIAMENT AT DAKKAR PT, Gamma?
'cus that was MOD CONFIRMED to contain at least 1 scum
but scum had a hidden mechanic where they could put as many of themselves in it as they wanted.
What a clever mechanic
Man I love my games

[Varsoon]

@Profii: that's the thing, though--I still said we should just lynch people ignoring the Neighborhood pool, and if we happened to lynch someone in the Neighborhood, it'd be based on their play in the game rather than hood PoE.

If I wanted to be survivalistic about it, I'd probably just not claim the hood at all, work towards pocketing the people inside of it, and hope that their eventual testimony towards me would make the hood look like a double-blind masonry. That's actually a huge part of why I moved to out it; I didn't want hood interactions coloring things in a way that wouldn't be evident in the main game thread.

P-EDIT: There was the hood that all the red mages were in, Valakut.

[Varsoon]

Here's the PT: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75377
If that's the one you mean.

[Varsoon]

And yeah no one was scum in that hood.

[Varsoon]

Lolk

SPECTATOR THREAD: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75417

SCUM PT: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75400

HYDRA PT - SHINING DREAMERS: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75402
HYDRA PT - MAID CAFE: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75403
HYDRA PT - BRONYA ZAYCHIK: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75404
HYDRA PT - REASONABLY RATIONAL: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75405
HYDRA PT - TIBOR AND LUMIA: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75406
HYDRA PT - BAKU AND MUNNA: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75407
JOURNAL PT - ONTHEMARK: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75411

BEST FRIENDS PT - (DUNNSTRAL): viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75806
BEST FRIENDS PT - (CREATURE): viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75782
BEST FRIENDS PT - (GAMMA EMERALD): viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75757
BEST FRIENDS PT - (NANCY DREW 39): viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75754
BEST FRIENDS PT - (PURPLE HEART): viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75556
BEST FRIENDS PT - (REASONABLY RATIONAL): viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75566
BEST FRIENDS PT - (MAID CAFE): viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75567
BEST FRIENDS PT - (BRONYA ZAYCHIK): viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75568
BEST FRIENDS PT - (ALMOST50): viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75569
BEST FRIENDS PT - (VENMAR): viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75582
BEST FRIENDS PT - (SKYBIRD): viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75590
BAKU AND MUNNA & REASONABLY RATIONAL PT: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75495
BAKU AND MUNNA & MAID CAFE PT: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75497
BAKU AND MUNNA & VENMAR PT: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75498
SPECTRAL PROCESSION PT: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75503
MTG - VALAKUT PT: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75377
UNDERTALE - CATTY AND BRATTY PT: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75552
UNDERTALE - GRILLBY'S PT: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75557
GUNDAM - EARTH FEDERATION PT: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75866
GUNDAM - AEUG PT: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75867
GUNDAM - ZEON PT: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75868
GUNDAM - TITANS PT: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75876
GUNDAM - PARLIAMENT AT DAKAR PT: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75928

(I'll make these public when I get the chance to)

[Varsoon]

I have no clue.
Maybe you're thinking of how people thought Baku & Munna had to have had scum between their hoods?
I dunno.

[Varsoon]

I made the decision myself to out it.
No one opposed, tho.

[Varsoon]

Like my first post in there in pregame was essentially just 'convince me not to out this hood in my first post'
I was gonna out it no matter what though
And only Nancy responded between that and me being upfront about my intentions.
Xtoxm commented that he didn't think the hood was 'clean' and likely had 1 or 2 scum.

[Varsoon]

Do I need to do a sexy dance for you to get interested, Wisdom?

[Varsoon]

...can I hire someone to handle my accounts?
I don't know the first thing about wagon trading.

[Varsoon]

It's probably garbage bunk lame multiball.

[Varsoon]

you win once no members of opposing factions are alive.

members of opposing factions


opposing factions

factions

s

[Varsoon]

Basically it completely throws a wrench in the rationale we can give for why someone is scum or not because each scum team can just fucking hunt the other instead of have to lie and swindle their way to victory.
It's trash.
Multiball is trash.

[Varsoon]

The winning play is to either make yourself SUCH A LIABILITY that no one would ever shoot you or to be such a NON PRESENCE that you don't even ping on the radar of someone with a kill, AS EITHER ALIGNMENT
Multiball literally encourages the WORST PLAY.

[Varsoon]

Furthermore, it's PRACTICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to balance against the swing inherit in a multiball setup.
I have NEVER seen it done.

[Varsoon]

Yes varsoon. What will you do? Do you know why I voted you?

'cus I'm awesome and you're mean
I dunno man.
It's a 24p game and my role is "You can talk to people privately about smash bros"
like
care

[Varsoon]

We can only WIFOM speculate that some scum might not hunt their own buddies, but s'bout it.

[Varsoon]

Like man Multiball sucks
Do you see me running straightout multiball setups?
Nah
I'm tryina figure out some way to do it where it doesn't suck
but it sucks.

[Varsoon]

Man I need to cut back on my expletives.
I was doing really good in those newbie games usin' Heckin' and Mod Darnit.

[Varsoon]

Ya'll a bunch of bustas

[Varsoon]

So why am I going down in value
Aren't I valuable?

I don't get itttt

[Varsoon]

Can I get someone to be my vote/wagon broker?
I am not good at playing the markets.

[Varsoon]

I hate everyone's Varsoon votes.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: LEO
DANNY

[Varsoon]

Ausuka, just 'cus it's easy doesn't mean much given
1. 24 players
2. There won't be scum resistance to wagons near as much because lolmultiball

[Varsoon]

I want you to know
I usually find roleplaying in mafia games obnoxious
I usually find alt gimmicks cringy
But this is beautiful and perfect and great for this game in particular.

[Varsoon]

there's an immensely overwhelming amount of support for this wagon which actually concerns me by quite a significant amount

Where was all this concern when your ole boy Varsoon was getting run up, huh?

VOTE: Scumsaysmeep

[Varsoon]

Spiderverse was really good, probably one of my favorite animated movies ever made.

Also, some shit happened that's really soured me on playing mafia. :/
I'd replace out here but, y'know
no deadlines
just know I'm probably not going to be really engaged or in the game for the next few weeks
if that's okay.
If you guys don't like that or whatever, I can replace, but I don't wanna put that burden on xyxzzy especially when the game's made to cater towards this kinda dip out.

If anyone has questions for me or wanna direct something to me, just bold it at me, k?

[Varsoon]

FWIW I think it's best to ignore that neighbourhood in terms of scumhunting, i.e. not have it affect your reads in terms of town/scum ratio, except of course that all of them being scum is implausible.

I think it's funny that you came to the same conclusion I did but still asked me why I outted the PT and acted like I didn't come to this conclusion.

[Varsoon]

Resistance-tell is bad
If you vote for a global townread and then go "AW MAN HOWCOME NO ONE ELSE IS VOTE THERE, SUCH RESISTANCE, SO SCUM" you're probably just wrong.
You need to analyze WHY there was resistance to the wagon. Who was on the wagon? Who was off? Who protested it? Who voted elsewhere? What events were responsible for shifting the game momentum away?
Once you grasp at that, you'll be a much better and thorough player.

[Varsoon]

Resistance-tell is bad
If you vote for a global townread and then go "AW MAN HOWCOME NO ONE ELSE IS VOTE THERE, SUCH RESISTANCE, SO SCUM" you're probably just wrong.
You need to analyze WHY there was resistance to the wagon. Who was on the wagon? Who was off? Who protested it? Who voted elsewhere? What events were responsible for shifting the game momentum away?
Once you grasp at that, you'll be a much better and thorough player.

are you going to do some solving maybe the next time you popin

Takes a lot of effort from someone far more engaged than me right now.
Sorry.

[Varsoon]

Das fair, buy low, sell high.
Or don't sell at all?
I dunno how the heck Wagonomics works.

And I've always been pretty transparent about it:
I'm treating the hood like it's not really alignment indicative for now.

[Varsoon]

/shrugs
At least I'm liked.

[Varsoon]

Varsoon, the issue I have with you is this: you first outed your neighbourhood because you believed it contained at least one scum, but then you were the first to propose that your neighbourhood could be all town. I find these mindsets conflicting.

Can you reconcile this?

Even if it could have scum, that doesn't mean that it does.
I outted the hood because
1. IF there is scum there, then any info we share there is not safe from being stolen.
2. IF there is scum there, ya'll can PoE figure out who scum is later in the game.
3. Regardless of if there is scum there or not, it becomes incredibly obvious when 4 people are having out-of-main-thread discussion; any decent player would realize we have some sort of alternate means of interaction, which may get us falsely scumread. Even basic players catch on to this and get suspicious of players who seem to have info they don't/interactions that they haven't seen.
4. The game thread itself, on the other hand, is guaranteed to have the usual ratio of town to non-town alignments. Hunting there should be our priority, as if we're wrong about scum being in the neighborhood, we PoE ourselves into a sunk-cost 4-town-mislynch.

Does that make sense?
How many times do I have to write this out?

[Varsoon]

Wait, are you saying that you outed the neighbourhood in case scum were in it, not that you actually think scum is in it?

Contingencies, yeah.
I literally decided to out it before anyone posted there.

[Varsoon]

Also, NSG is a member of it and she's admitted to getting pocketed in PTs before.
I just don't think having a 4 man PT is beneficial for town if kept secret.

[Varsoon]

Part 3 of Kaiji was really, really good.

[Varsoon]

Also, NSG is a member of it and she's admitted to getting pocketed in PTs before.
I just don't think having a 4 man PT is beneficial for town if kept secret.

NSG?

???



You mean me.

Sorry, for some reason I mix your names up in my head.

[Varsoon]

IT'S A GOOD MOVIE

[Varsoon]

I'm chillin but I think that means kinda no efforting which is bad for town so uhhhh
Maybe I should actually push stuff.

[Varsoon]

Pretty much that second one
Like I wanted a no pressure game where our lynches weren't compromised by the existence of a deadline

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Sheepsaysmeep

Okay so a few things
Thing 1.
It's not a neighborhood. It's a masonry.
Thing 2.
Lynch that sheep loser.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: LeoDanny

Ay.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Sheepsaysmeep

As alwayss

[Varsoon]

I got proded.
The votes on me are awful.
Cool.

[Varsoon]

Those arrrre reads

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Kokichi
Following Xtox

[Varsoon]

I'm tired of Kokichi pulling this shit on meee
VOTE: Kokichi

You know what you did wrooong

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Sheepsaysmeep

Kokichi knows exactly what he's doing, the lil turd.
It's a real tongue-in-cheek boy-who-cried-wolf kind of thing that's designed solely to test how strictly I adhere to my own scruples
It might be a winking towntell, but I can't be sure of it yet, as he could just be looking to cash in on faith.
In short, Kokichi IS NOT a D3 delayed IC. That's a joke. No such role exists. It's shorthand for 'I am a role that should be able to prove itself as town by D3'.
He knows he gets buried on D3 regardless though
It's all a laugh.

[Varsoon]

I'm sure of it, but chances are more likely that he's town gambiting than scum gambiting.
Unless, numbers-wise, scum can win overnight, which doesn't seem likely.

[Varsoon]

varsoon has given 0 reason for his lazy!tunnel on me which he's had all game and it's disgusting

Disgusting that it's this easy to catch scum?
Yeah I know it sucks when you get snatched by low effort
Sucks to suck.

[Varsoon]

That's cool; I want a lynch that'll yield scum. That's why I'm voting there.
If you want to play the lazy card, there's a good 10+ players in this game doing jack shit.

[Varsoon]

That's cool; I want a lynch that'll yield scum. That's why I'm voting there.
If you want to play the lazy card, there's a good 10+ players in this game doing jack shit.

there are still like 20 people in the game with a probably fairly large amount of scum in there assuming multiball

you're ignoring basically everyone else in the game as possible lynches today and I hate it a lot.

Das wild it's like I can only lynch one person at a time who knew

[Varsoon]

Can you illustrate how Gamma's posts are scum moreso than just 'terrible'?

[Varsoon]

Like I want to see some depth to your conclusion here
because you're just saying "His posts are terrible and reactive and largely about one player" doesn't really do much to indicate that Gamma's actually scum and not just laying down such play as town. What about his posts strike you as scum motivated?

[Varsoon]

...but how does having a bad tunnel and making reactive posts make Gamma scum here?

[Varsoon]

Well, crud.
I wasn't pushing so much for a re-evaluation as much as I was hoping to understand your convictions re:Gamma a bit more.

[Varsoon]

If Gamma turns out to be scum, it's whatever if we're in multiball, since we're not on the same team.

[Varsoon]

@Party Boat: Wow, that's really mean
What did I do that struck such a nerve?
Are you guys buddies?

[Varsoon]

@Party: What kind of a droll question is that? I think everyone in this game would vote Sheep.
Wow huge great awesome surprise there.
I don't wagon people based solely on who'd be liable to vote there, though.
I wagon people because I think they're scum.
You can groan and whine and piss blood about 'tunneling' or some shit
But when you've caught scum, are you just going to let them go?
And, besides, I've engaged plenty outside of Sheep.
If anything, I should be doing MORE casing on Sheepsaysmeep.

So you're coming off as super over-protective and vitriolic over my play, which, yeah, it sucks, but it's pretty inoffensive and par for the course, imo.

[Varsoon]

Something about singletonking and varsoon's recent back and forth is giving me scum buddies vibes.

Nah, not buddies with that guy, try again.

[Varsoon]

Yeah, it really, really sticks out.
It also conf-biases the shit out of me because now I'm of the mind
1. If Sheep is scum this is a hard defend by Partyboat
2. If sheep is town, this is hard posturing to push my lynch through after and look good re: my flip.

[Varsoon]

varsoon if you believed your tunnel on me you would try to convince people

I really hate this bullshit 'if you believed' line people have been playing on me lately
Like, no, dude, you have no idea of what I'd do if I believed anything
Me voting for you and proclaiming you're scum is plenty to convince people.
If anything, the flagrant resistance to your wagon is notable.

@varsoon why is sheep scum?

It's largely OMGUS
They've got 128 posts and they've said nothing that's stuck besides things I know are wrong.

[Varsoon]

Also the amount that people are trying to paint me scumreading sheep as a tunnel is baffling
Shit's anything but
Though I suppose that's how you disparage someone having a consistent scumread
Clearly it can't be informed
Clearly I can't just have a fucking guilty on the slot
Nah
Must just be a tunnel lol

[Varsoon]

Honestly and earnestly, I don't know why I sign up for games with more than 15 players.
I can never keep up and I always default to "Kinda do nothing until there's enough players to actually play with reasonably" even though that's usually an awful move.

[Varsoon]

Nice response to a claimed cop guilty, dork.

[Varsoon]

Hey, I'm a cop with a guilty result on Sheepsaysmeep.
Lynch him.

[Varsoon]

@Sheep: It's almost like I called the resistance notable and it's interesting re: my role results on you
Rather than outright calling it scum
Wow context

[Varsoon]

Cute that you're trying to position yourself as a global townread there, though.

[Varsoon]

Was trying to play without claiming to see how people'd respond and interact naturally
Needless to say, your play aaaaint great here, PartyB.

[Varsoon]

It's almost as if I wanted to keep a low profile, avoid getting shot/lynched, and use my cop to clear out as many slots as possible before claiming
But whatever

[Varsoon]

About to be lynched?
What are you smoking?

[Varsoon]

Nah, fuck all ya'll
Looking gift-Varsoon in the mouth

[Varsoon]

Do the work for me papa varsoon
pleeease

[Varsoon]

Stop being so damn weak.

[Varsoon]

I already explained my thought process and my thoughts coming out of it.
Thanks for sowing reasonable doubt though.

[Varsoon]

Wanted interactions with Kokichi, wanted to see how Xtox would respond to me blatantly sheeping him.
Town Cop. Result is 'Not Town'.
I wanted to see what Singleton's reasons for pushing Gamma actually were, and if the 'case' held any weight to it--was doing that because it stuck out to me at the time, independent of my results.
Nancy's probably town and the person I was gonna check last in our PT.
Otherwise, my townreads are sparse, sorry.
I can't really keep track of who's in this game.
Singleton's probably town for the walkback on the Gamma vote, though.

[Varsoon]

@Party: Short of directly quoting my role PM and result, yeah.

@Gamma: You're particularly awful, y'know?

[Varsoon]

Oh, yeah, I'm also a Town Neighbor, too.

[Varsoon]

Ergo the hood.
I actually forgot the hood.
Hm.
Maybe the point of this role was to out my results there?
Man I fucked up.

[Varsoon]

Damn, Gamma
Didn't I just beat you in the massively town-sided Excalibur game, though?
Don't let this be a tip of the hat at you being scum and me being town here.

[Varsoon]

Noting Varsoon walking back the statement that the hood is a "masonry"

The plan was to cop clear/guilty all of them first but I got greedy.

[Varsoon]

@Gamma: Damn, dude, as a person? What's the grounds for that?

[Varsoon]

@Party: 'cus I'm not directly quoting it?

[Varsoon]

Cool, I guess you think less of me because Radiant Cowbells literally provoked me over and over again with the intent of me catching a ban, knowing how frustrated I get in games.

I'm sorry that's left a negative impression of who I am, as a person, on you, but I don't see how that's relevant to bring up in this game besides to be hurtful.

[Varsoon]

Nah, don't sweat it, I was just faking the guilty.
VOTE: Gamma

[Varsoon]

Dude, don't be a brat about it.

[Varsoon]

Instead, look at how people responded and come to some fruitful conclusions.

[Varsoon]

If how I interacted with RC isn't the reason for you thinking less of me, then what is?
And, yeah, I'd really appreciate it if you'd leave moral judgment checks on me, as a human being, out of the game space.
When I wrote that you were particularly awful here, I was talking about your play re: my claim.

[Varsoon]

Are you upset that I'd gambit, as town?
If town lies in a game, is that really a basis to call them a worse person?

Damn, dude.

[Varsoon]

@Vax: It's alright, it's mostly WIFOM that I've gotta throw up so that I can avoid getting killed tonight and then I can get more results.

[Varsoon]

Apologies, then.

Mod, Replace me out of this game.

[Varsoon]

Once I'm replaced out and the other game is over, we can talk about it, Gamma.
I really feel pretty hurt by you bringing this into this game and I feel even worse for ever having played in a way that'd make you say such a thing in the first place.
I really don't know what to do to make things right, but continuing to be in this game isn't one of them.

[Varsoon]

It's been really hard for me to engage with this game; that much should be obvious.
I'd been considering replacing out for some time already.
I really don't handle large games like this very well.

You didn't make me replace out, though, I just think that it's impossible to continue playing this when we haven't resolved issues that are still lingering between us. There shouldn't be that kind of bias or animosity between players when they are in a game like this--it's what led to the issues I had before and it'll only lead to more if I continue to play in this game.

It's not really a matter of 'not bringing it up'. I'd appreciate being able to come to some resolution, and, failing that, I'd like to become a better person if I really am seen as less than decent.

[Varsoon]

Cool.
I just hope you understand, 'cus it's like:
At some point, I'm going to have to make a judgment about what your alignment is.
Regardless of what decision I make, it's going to be colored by that out of game bias.
Because of this lingering issue, further issues may occur, and I really don't want to see a repeat of what's already happened in the past.
For what it's worth, I think you're a good dude and I've enjoyed playing games with you so far.
So it feels really crummy to let you down.

[Varsoon]

Xyzzy, lemme know when you run a smaller game or another Adventure Zone one.

[Varsoon]

Also thanks for running this and apologies for replacing out.