Anime U-Pick: King Size [SEASON FINALE...?]

ISO · Post Post #3250 (ISO) » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:22 am

In post 3236, Reasonably Psychotic wrote:AWW THANK YOU <3

You're welcome; I'm the one who told him that.

In post 3238, Torque wrote:For what its worth, I warned people in my channel that if Toog is a wolf then he's a PGO

And Torque can vouch for me when I say that I had countermeasures in play were he one.

SuperfluousNinja · Post Post #3251 (ISO) » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:24 am

In post 3244, Torque wrote:
In post 3213, SuperfluousNinja wrote:
In post 3207, Near x Mello wrote:you misunderstand. People arent stupid, they just do stupid stuff because they think they're smart and theyve solved everything

Their actions are stupid, not themselves

~Near
This is not at all a convincing argument.

VOTE: Near x Mello
I feel like this is scum theater lmao

Why does the argument not being convincing mean near x mello is scum tho

Because he is trying to undermine what I find to be a good and constructive angle of investigation.

Plus think about the slippery slope of this line of reasoning, saying that poor decisions can be excused by people simply doing dumb things. There is no limit to which this can be applied. Why did player X do this illogical thing? Cuz people are stupid!

I choose to believe that people know what they are doing. More importantly, given the sheer amount of time in a “day”, I just have a hard time believing that people wouldn’t think hard about one of the most important things they do in this game, that being using their role.

What do you mean with your “scum theater” comment? Who is being scummy? What do you find scummy and why?

Torque · Post Post #3252 (ISO) » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:25 am

I already vouched that one

Although do you know if you targeting Toog would fail and he wouldn't die because of it?

ISO · Post Post #3253 (ISO) » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:26 am

In post 3248, SuperfluousNinja wrote:See how WIFOM really doesn’t work?

Boy oh boy you picked the wrong term to use, fella.

Wondering if I should drop the bombshell on that term right now or let it fall in suspense for a while.

Suffice to say,

I'm feeling quite smug at the moment in terms of that post.

Reasonably Psychotic · Post Post #3254 (ISO) » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:27 am

In post 3246, mastina wrote:
In post 3231, Reasonably Psychotic wrote:I think the problem with your reasoning is that for scum!toogeloo with this role, the chances of being targeted N2 are much higher if everyone knows about it
Why?

Why, in of itself, would claiming that role.
Divorced from all other factors.
Make people want to target Toogeloo?

When in tandem with Toogeloo's play, yes, it would.
Because people were scumreading Toogeloo.
But remove the scumread from the equation, because Toogeloo gained suspicion as time passed. (He was virtually inconspicuous on D1; nobody was paying attention to him until after his claim, pretty much.)
Why would the claim, in of itself, cause people to target him?
What if, instead of him being scumread, he ended up being townread?

Would the town then be targeting him after that claim?

No, they would avoid targeting him, knowing it'd be killing 'town'.

Toogeloo's claim made perfect sense coming from scum actually having that role, because as scum with that role, he would need to claim it. And if he successfully garnered townreads, then he wouldn't be targeted.

That's not a stretch. That's perfectly logical, viable scumplay. His claim of his role came prior to the attention on his slot by and large. He had no way of anticipating people would want him dead that badly because of his play.

It was, ultimately, not the case; Toogeloo was in fact town.
It did not mean the logic was weak/suspect.

It's another case, in fact, of the points being objectively fine/good, but also not being right. (Same metric which I gauged Pink Ball by, mind you.)

Simply because people want to be effective. People want to do things. If Toogeloo's role represented an opportunity for even a single person who scumread them(note, not widespread scumreading, but a single one) to convert a useless power into a vig, they'd be more likely to use that ability on them, than doing whatever their role allowed them to do.

I don't actually see why scum!toog needs to claim that, because town!toog could get away with not claiming it, which is sorta the crux of your entire argument... but honestly, I think this is a conversation we should have after the game, I don't think it helps us find scum right now, unless that scum is you, which I still don't think is the case.

-Yukiteru

pedit: SN, really, trust me: town is generally stupid. Or at least does stupid things, pretty consistently. NxM is not wrong about that, and him believing that is a sign of experience and having realistic expectations, not his alignment.

ISO · Post Post #3255 (ISO) » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:29 am

In post 3252, Torque wrote:Although do you know if you targeting Toog would fail and he wouldn't die because of it?

No, I figured I'd be most likely to get an answer there after Toogeloo died rather than before, because if I asked the mod, "Hypothetically, if I targeted a male character who if targeted by a night action, would they die?", I wouldn't expect to get a response; now I can ask, "If I targeted Toogeloo, and I was the only one to do so, would he die?". Planning on it, just need to get fully caught up, first.

SuperfluousNinja · Post Post #3256 (ISO) » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:31 am

In post 3253, mastina wrote:
In post 3248, SuperfluousNinja wrote:See how WIFOM really doesn’t work?
Boy oh boy you picked the wrong term to use, fella.

Wondering if I should drop the bombshell on that term right now or let it fall in suspense for a while.

Suffice to say,

I'm feeling quite smug at the moment in terms of that post.

Well I look forward to the post-game analysis when I can make it clear to you that this really is WIFOM. I don’t know why you’re pretending to know something that both of us know is not true.

Why haven’t you answered my questions yet?

SuperfluousNinja · Post Post #3257 (ISO) » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:32 am

In post 3232, SuperfluousNinja wrote:
In post 3214, mastina wrote:So, singletonking was in the channel Torque and I did; the reason he died is that he targeted Severa, and per singleton's PM, that means Severa's death killed singleton.
I among others targeted Toogeloo, explaining that death.
Sure, and in doing so, you wasted your supposed town ability, as did anyone else who followed your lead. Well played.

Am I supposed to believe that with the excessive amount of thinking and analysis you have done so far in this game, it didn’t occur to you to try and figure out why Toog revealed this about himself? Can you explain why you weren’t at all suspicious of targeting a player who you thought was scum and told you exactly how to kill him? Why wouldn’t it occur to you that this could be a trap?

Please answer.

Torque · Post Post #3258 (ISO) » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:33 am

In post 3251, SuperfluousNinja wrote:
In post 3244, Torque wrote:
In post 3213, SuperfluousNinja wrote:
In post 3207, Near x Mello wrote:you misunderstand. People arent stupid, they just do stupid stuff because they think they're smart and theyve solved everything

Their actions are stupid, not themselves

~Near
This is not at all a convincing argument.

VOTE: Near x Mello
I feel like this is scum theater lmao

Why does the argument not being convincing mean near x mello is scum tho
Because he is trying to undermine what I find to be a good and constructive angle of investigation.

Plus think about the slippery slope of this line of reasoning, saying that poor decisions can be excused by people simply doing dumb things. There is no limit to which this can be applied. Why did player X do this illogical thing? Cuz people are stupid!

I choose to believe that people know what they are doing. More importantly, given the sheer amount of time in a “day”, I just have a hard time believing that people wouldn’t think hard about one of the most important things they do in this game, that being using their role.

What do you mean with your “scum theater” comment? Who is being scummy? What do you find scummy and why?

Yo, so I made the same argument when someone told me D1 that Vedith doing what he did was dumb if he was a lying wolf
I told them people play suboptimally all the time
What Near x Mello said is just the flip side of the equation. Although I suppose the argument is less applicable on mastina but it's still true

You know how a wolf x wolf argument begins? A lot of the time it starts with nitpicking the other one's posts even though it is entirely reasonable

ISO · Post Post #3259 (ISO) » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:34 am

In post 3254, Reasonably Psychotic wrote:I don't actually see why scum!toog needs to claim that

Simple.
Because if scum-toog doesn't claim it.
Then anyone would target Toogeloo N2, beit those townreading him OR scumreading him. He has no way to make them target someone else; he has no control over it.

And having that role for real, any fakeclaim risks him becoming the next Vedith. What if he claimed PGO and there was another in the game? Just like with Drixx counterclaiming Vedith, Toogeloo ends up lynched. Any fakeclaim of his runs the risk of being a town player's actual role--so he can't risk fakeclaiming, knowing fakeclaiming condemned Vedith; he's forced to realclaim in order to make them target someone else.

It was the one way of controlling actions to make them go off of him, which wouldn't automatically condemn him to being the lynch. He knew his realclaim was safe; he knew that fakeclaiming, via Vedith, wasn't safe. He knew that if he was targeted, he'd die; he knew that there were any number of town players who for any reason would target him N2 if he didn't claim.

You're ultimately correct, though. This doesn't directly help find scum, other than showing that SuperfluousNinja's barking up the wrong tree.

ISO · Post Post #3260 (ISO) » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:36 am

In post 3256, SuperfluousNinja wrote:Well I look forward to the post-game analysis when I can make it clear to you that this really is WIFOM. I don’t know why you’re pretending to know something that both of us know is not true.

Because I know something you do not know about WIFOM.
You think you know WIFOM well enough to argue it.
But I know something about WIFOM that you do not.

And what I know gives me a degree of smugness on the subject.

In post 3256, SuperfluousNinja wrote:Why haven’t you answered my questions yet?

Why are you pretending that I haven't when I already did?

SuperfluousNinja · Post Post #3261 (ISO) » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:42 am

In post 3254, Reasonably Psychotic wrote:
In post 3246, mastina wrote:
In post 3231, Reasonably Psychotic wrote:I think the problem with your reasoning is that for scum!toogeloo with this role, the chances of being targeted N2 are much higher if everyone knows about it
SN, really, trust me: town is generally stupid. Or at least does stupid things, pretty consistently. NxM is not wrong about that, and him believing that is a sign of experience and having realistic expectations, not his alignment.

(I CBF to clean this up any better)

If you insist on pushing this angle, then by all means, tell Mastina she made a stupid decision. You can’t just argue about stupidity in a vacuum here. If you actually want to counter the point I’m making, then you need to argue that Mastina made a stupid decision.

So go ahead. Tell her.

And if you’re not willing to tell her, then you need to let this go.

Reasonably Psychotic · Post Post #3262 (ISO) » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:45 am

Oh, it was definitely a stupid thing to do.

Mastina I love you but you did a stupid thing targeting Toog, and not presenting to the entire game the four possibilities, so people could evaluate it properly and not just blindly shoot them.

I understand you did that thing because you thought sorting that slot would be best done via removing them, but it was still a stupid thing to do.

@SN: I assure you, I believe wholeheartedly in *everything* I espouse with regards to mafia theory.
-Yukiteru

SuperfluousNinja · Post Post #3263 (ISO) » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:45 am

In post 3249, mastina wrote:
In post 3232, SuperfluousNinja wrote:Am I supposed to believe that with the excessive amount of thinking and analysis you have done so far in this game, it didn’t occur to you to try and figure out why Toog revealed this about himself?
Nope!

Am I supposed to believe that you can't parse the fact that Toogeloo's claim was entirely not-alignment-indicative, thus, irrelevant to people?

I never argued that the statement was alignment-indicative. Please show me where I tried to argue that it was. I’ll be waiting.

SuperfluousNinja · Post Post #3264 (ISO) » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:47 am

In post 3260, mastina wrote:
In post 3256, SuperfluousNinja wrote:Well I look forward to the post-game analysis when I can make it clear to you that this really is WIFOM. I don’t know why you’re pretending to know something that both of us know is not true.
Because I know something you do not know about WIFOM.
You think you know WIFOM well enough to argue it.
But I know something about WIFOM that you do not.

And what I know gives me a degree of smugness on the subject.

Does this have any relevance to the game, or are you just being a smartass about terminology? It better fucking not be the latter.

Joan of Arc · Post Post #3265 (ISO) » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:49 am

Why are people even talking to N x M slot with their holier-than-thou attitude?

Joan of Arc · Post Post #3266 (ISO) » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:50 am

And why isn't RP questioning me further, as I'd expect him to do?

Reasonably Psychotic · Post Post #3267 (ISO) » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:57 am

In post 3266, Joan of Arc wrote:And why isn't RP questioning me further, as I'd expect him to do?

Because you answered my question? You have an ability which requires that you lose your vote for today, got it.

Without asking you what that ability is, I don't see anything else I should ask you about?

-Yukiteru

Torque · Post Post #3268 (ISO) » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:02 am

@Mastina

a townblock of Joan/Maybe Pink Ball/Dunn/RP/Chito & Yuuri/You/Me effective for today, yes/no

Joan of Arc · Post Post #3269 (ISO) » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:05 am

In post 3267, Reasonably Psychotic wrote:
In post 3266, Joan of Arc wrote:And why isn't RP questioning me further, as I'd expect him to do?
Because you answered my question? You have an ability which requires that you lose your vote for today, got it.

Without asking you what that ability is, I don't see anything else I should ask you about?

-Yukiteru

I guess I am just used to you info-prodding till kingdom come.

Reasonably Psychotic · Post Post #3270 (ISO) » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:12 am

In post 3269, Joan of Arc wrote:
In post 3267, Reasonably Psychotic wrote:
In post 3266, Joan of Arc wrote:And why isn't RP questioning me further, as I'd expect him to do?
Because you answered my question? You have an ability which requires that you lose your vote for today, got it.

Without asking you what that ability is, I don't see anything else I should ask you about?

-Yukiteru
I guess I am just used to you info-prodding till kingdom come.

Fair. I think the stuff the mod announced told me everything I needed to know. Only real questions I could ask are whether it was something you triggered last night, or if it's something that was occurring automatically, and if something you triggered, if you could trigger it some other time, etc...but really, I don't think I need to know these things?

-Yukiteru

Torque · Post Post #3271 (ISO) » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:13 am

In post 3268, Torque wrote:@Mastina

a townblock of Joan/Maybe Pink Ball/Dunn/RP/Chito & Yuuri/You/Me effective for today, yes/no

Actually hold this off for later

I haven't actually re-evaluated, probably should do that first

Chito and Yuuri · Post Post #3272 (ISO) » Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:36 am

Chito: Set this up for me and Yuuri, but you're all welcome to peruse as well.

At a glance the only thing that jumps out to me is Vedith's movement from 1.9 to 1.11 to 1.13 although I'm not sure what to do with that yet.

Spoiler:

Chito and Yuuri · Post Post #3273 (ISO) » Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:38 am

Chito: Torque why were you thinking of townblocking Dunn?

Dunnstral · Post Post #3274 (ISO) » Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:44 pm

In post 3153, Reasonably Psychotic wrote:Severa was likely getting lynched today,

No he wasn't