Micro 857: Burden of Proficiency Mafia

[Shoshin]

Where is the information on how this setup works?

[Shoshin]

You sound very reasonable, RC.

[Shoshin]

Hey U2, why are you trusting obvscum RC?

[Shoshin]

I was going to say the same thing to you, RC.

[Shoshin]

Hmm, not sure if RC's paranoia is fake or real. He knows at this point that he's paranoid of me every game but this seems a bit too soon for it, plus I feel like he'd probably wouldn't be coming after me like this so early.

[Shoshin]

I'm town, Enter.

[Shoshin]

If I were scum, I'd be looking to push any lynch other than RC.

[Shoshin]

Unvote RC, I'm town.

[Shoshin]

If I were scum, I'd be trying to buddy up to RC, not mislynch him.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: RC

[Shoshin]

I'm not letting you lead shit, RC.

[Shoshin]

If you think I'd follow you as town, you're delusional.

[Shoshin]

If you're actually town, I'm replacing out of this RC.

[Shoshin]

The fact RC's pushing my lynch means he's scum, period. He straight-up told me he felt uncomfortable pushing my lynch ever because he'd feel too bad about mislynching me, and that he'd replace out before pushing my lynch. This is scum RC.

[Shoshin]

If you're actually town, I'm replacing out of this RC.

bc you pushed on me on page 1? if you're town we can pull back and talk about this but what you did was abject bullshit and you should expect me to scumread you for it.

I didn't even push you, wtf?

[Shoshin]

UNVOTE:

[Shoshin]

I feel like you wouldn't actually think that if you were town. I can't tell if your paranoia of scum me has reached new heights or you're just trying to fake your town meta of always suspecting me.

[Shoshin]

There's a lot more nuance to what I'd do as scum than just immediately pushing your lynch.

[Shoshin]

I also wouldn't push your lynch in a game where I'd want you alive for the paragons to mis-select.

[Shoshin]

U2, why is RC more town than random?

[Shoshin]

I didn't scumread you on page 1, what are you even saying RC?

[Shoshin]

I've never seen you this paranoid. I'm not even pushing you and you think I am.

[Shoshin]

You think I was serious about calling you "obvscum"? Really?

[Shoshin]

That isn't me pushing. It's actually amazing you'd interpret that as a push.

[Shoshin]

Why are you pushing me on page 1 before I even said anything, RC?

[Shoshin]

Actually, ignore that question RC. I really don't want a 1v1 with you regardless your alignment. I feel like you're pushing me unfairly but maybe you're just actually this paranoid of me, I can't tell anymore. I'm getting some food, will reread this interaction later.

[Shoshin]

If I came into this game immediately calling you town, RC, would you have called me town?

[Shoshin]

I called you reasonable, RC. But sure, I was discrediting. I started pushing you after you randomly came after me.

[Shoshin]

Just because I've said you sound reasonable as scum doesn't mean you don't say reasonable things as town? Nor does it mean I'm discrediting the actual reasonable thing you said.

[Shoshin]

I actually agreed with your point and didn't want you to be the lynch even if you are scum.

[Shoshin]

I would never policy lynch RC.

[Shoshin]

RC's town so we're not lynching him, period.

[Shoshin]

How well do you know each other?

I know him better than anyone else in this game, I think.

[Shoshin]

Of the three active posters I've played with before, I trust Urap over either of you.

Based on the games I've had with U2, my reads are more trustworthy than his. Aubrey can back this up.

[Shoshin]

I'm reading him on tone, mostly ;P

but his progression, outlined first in the few posts after your entrance, was both convoluted and coherent

I don't see how you're getting town out of this.

[Shoshin]

what changed your mind on me?

A break from the game, and some thinking about your play. I don't think you'd alienate me this much as scum. You want me to locktown you, not hate you while feeling unable to tell if you're faking this paranoia or not (still can't tell if you're being real but I don't think you do this either way as scum).

[Shoshin]

You basically threw a game I had solved for you on D1, U2. Not to mention the other game town lost before I even had a chance to post. Not sure why you'd think your reads are better than mine if you're doing worse in the games we have together.

[Shoshin]

Have you rolled scum yet, U2?

[Shoshin]

That hydra was almost entirely the worst. I barely read that game because my internet broke just as it was getting going (that's what I disappeared from the geriatric as well).

[Shoshin]

If I hadn't lost internet, we win the geriatric game 100% of the time. But it's okay. I liked your play there by the way, not saying you're a bad player. I just don't think you can say your reads are better than mine.

Almost all posts in Starcarft were the worst. The few that were me were really obviously me.

[Shoshin]

I tend to have better reads as the game develops, don't think I've ever heard of someone with better D1 reads than later.

[Shoshin]

Michael Scott.

[Shoshin]

I just realized I have 100% accuracy reading every player in this game in the past. So I'm feeling pretty good about this.

[Shoshin]

How is RC townier than me?

[Shoshin]

Really? The first time I played with you, you got super paranoid when I townread you early...

[Shoshin]

What's this "early progression" you're talking about, U2?

[Shoshin]

I get what you're saying, RC. Don't worry.

[Shoshin]

@shoshin, what do you think about these posts?

Stk isn't a player. I noticed a while ago but wanted to see how it develops. I imagine you've caught this as well.

[Shoshin]

I don't drink beer anymore so I'm probably the least fun.

[Shoshin]

I agree it's NAI.

[Shoshin]

do you drink anything?

Well, I'll drink on occasion socially but I'm done with that part of my life. I used to drink a lot, too much.

[Shoshin]

I think everything in life is better sober, if you allow it to be.

[Shoshin]

I'm about ready to lynch the hydra. These guys are usually hyper posters.

[Shoshin]

Maestro faked a slip that game as well. We lynched him D1.

[Shoshin]

The one where my last post in the game is basically - lynch Oka/Aubrey - and then those two go on to win as mafia. I cannot overstate how much I hate losing won games. I'm still traumatized by that.

[Shoshin]

It's useful to say.

[Shoshin]

What is white flag gambit?

[Shoshin]

U2 feels townish to me. Why scum?

[Shoshin]

His townread on you seems like he's just unaware of your reputation as scum, the reasoning seems plausible from town U2. But I agree the posturing point isn't good.

[Shoshin]

I intend to hard meta players as well. I was skimming through U2's scum game earlier but I need to take a closer look when I feel the energy.

[Shoshin]

I'm reading his games atm, IIOA?

[Shoshin]

U2, are you a lawyer?

[Shoshin]

Can I vote you, RC?

[Shoshin]

That was a joking way of saying okay, not a push.

[Shoshin]

I didn't have much a read on U2 to start, RC.

[Shoshin]

I'm also a lot slower at reading than you because I'm not done reading his games?

[Shoshin]

Or did you just skim his iso?

[Shoshin]

Can I vote you, RC?

That was a joking way of saying okay, not a push.

this reads town to me

I think town is more likely to make the joke and then realize the implications re: page 1 after posting it than scum is to either do the same, or to plan the pair of posts up

This is very much like town U2, though.

[Shoshin]

I dug for specific things in his VT games and found them

What'd you find?

[Shoshin]

I lean all of us being town and scum having not acted yet

Probably.

[Shoshin]

I do feel like MS would have posted more by now as town? I noticed Volx recently active elsewhere since this game started so he's either waiting on Auro (something to check meta for this hydra) or they're scum.

[Shoshin]

Sorry about my thread entrance Shoshin

That's okay, I'm sorry as well.

[Shoshin]

I have a lot of knowledge on Saudade by the way with 100% record reading him as town/scum despite his tendency to lurk so I feel pretty good about solving this.

[Shoshin]

Outside of this game, you told me you felt uncomfortable pushing my lynch because you were worried you'd mislynch me and that you'd replace out instead. Did I misinterpret that?

[Shoshin]

Why would I even make something like that up, RC?

[Shoshin]

Then I misinterpreted, sorry.

[Shoshin]

I misunderstood what you were saying.

[Shoshin]

I agree, it would be nice to have real input from you on the game.

[Shoshin]

Calling you delusional was frustration. I'd follow you if I agreed but I trust my reads more than yours.

[Shoshin]

Do you still think that you can read me?

Yes, until proven otherwise.

[Shoshin]

Some town tells I look for are present.

[Shoshin]

The day I scumread you, I will get you lynched.

[Shoshin]

We'll see.

[Shoshin]

2. URAP, do you believe you're an easy read? Can you link to some successful scumgames of yours?

I already asked U2 for scumgames and he linked it. Have you read the game?

[Shoshin]

I can relate to that. Mafia keeps me up at night more than it should.

[Shoshin]

I'm lying. U2 didn't link his game. It's all in the wiki.

[Shoshin]

I don't have high enough IQ to follow your reasoning, MS.

[Shoshin]

Saudade's probably scum.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: RC

Tbh
I don't like this retaliation vote

I'm sorry you feel that way.

[Shoshin]

I've played with both town/scum Saudade and read a lot of his games in my attempts to sort him.

[Shoshin]

I think paragons can't be trusted anymore by the way. They're trying to get me or RC lynched to make their life easier.

[Shoshin]

What're your reads, MS?

[Shoshin]

You think Saudade's town?

[Shoshin]

You're calling RC's town tells scummy, Enter.

[Shoshin]

59 isn't scummy? It's just a way of talking. I say the same thing all the time, though in my case it's usually more of a "town is going to lose" moment of despair.

[Shoshin]

You think Saudade's town?

Nope. There's no useful Content from him I find AI. I've read past games enough to know he has a scummy playstyle. Walk me through how he's likely scum?

He's talking too much.

[Shoshin]

Saudade usually doesn't post half the stuff he posted in this game if he's town. It feels like he's trying too hard to town tell.

[Shoshin]

What are you talking about, Enter?

[Shoshin]

What are you talking about, Enter?

I'm saying with the way things look right now there has been a solid amount of shade thrown on both lurker slots. Giving the players that put that shade on your slot the power to control your reads feels like a bad move

I still have no idea what you're trying to say. Please be more clear.

[Shoshin]

It feels like paragons want RC lynched so they don't have to sort him. I don't see Enter's analysis coming from a genuine attempt to sort the game.

[Shoshin]

Or he wants to pocket RC?

[Shoshin]

I also don't see why any of this means RC's scum?

[Shoshin]

Then I don't understand what you've been saying, Enter, because it feels like you're trying to argue that me & RC are scum and that MS/Saudade are town?

[Shoshin]

I'm so glad I don't have to sort Enter this game.

[Shoshin]

I'm waiting for you to do your meta check.

[Shoshin]

You're asking pointless questions, MS.

[Shoshin]

these posts are all in the range of kind-of-scummy to scummy-af

Spoiler:

im not reading all of that

one of my strongest traits as town is my ability to not confbias on my own reads and to reevaluate when shown evidence that I'm wrong on something.

don't BoP my reads initially, develop your own reads and then show them to me, then when you've shown me the case sheep me if I still disagree.

hahahahaha

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

okay ill read your reads hang on but this was funny

I don't have high enough IQ to follow your reasoning, MS.

I mean it's simple.
I'm town so both scum have to be in the other four slots.

Assert Saudade town: One pair in {RC, Shoshin, URAP} has to be SvS.
Eliminate all SvS pairings in {RC, Shoshin, URAP} and it contradicts the above -> confidence that Saudade is town.

you marked me town thats good I mark you town as well

I also dont follow the pairings logic as to why you decided im town though

I bet you scumslipped you knew I'm town and just wrote what you knew instead of what you wanted to fake
HAHA

Explain the pairing logic which concluded that I'm scum
if its sane you might be town
if it isnt...


HANS

GET THE FLAMEWEFFER

just mark me town

if you're town you should mark me town because we're both town
if you're scum just mark me town because you'll have an either time mislynching the other players

No I'm just going to obvtown
making reads is too much effort and I'm usually wrong anyway

I don't think the posts are that scummy when taken alone. 420 especially feels town if you don't know Saudade's meta for saying the same exact thing as scum.

[Shoshin]

More often than not 420 comes from town who doesn't care about RC's request than scum actively deflecting RC.

[Shoshin]

I understand why you think the way you do.

[Shoshin]

I'm taking a small amount of joy in knowing that Enter thinks I'm this good as scum.

[Shoshin]

RC, where you thinking to lynch?

[Shoshin]

I'd like your read especially no Saudade.

[Shoshin]

I have a 0% win rate as scum.

[Shoshin]

I mean it's just too easy for it to be both the lurkers. Right?

I think a lot of easy town wins are lost because of this mentality.

[Shoshin]

Who do you prefer between MS & Saudade, RC?

[Shoshin]

RC, why aren't you leading this game?

[Shoshin]

You're making me worried it's you & U2. Please talk to me about the game.

[Shoshin]

Stop trolling me please.

[Shoshin]

How are you reading RC as more town than me, U2? I don't get it.

[Shoshin]

No, I'm asking how you end up with the strongest scum player on the site as stronger town than me.

[Shoshin]

Your lack of paranoia about RC doesn't make sense to me.

[Shoshin]

Saudade's not entirely wrong for saying I'm full of shit, because when I caught him, it was on an alt.

[Shoshin]

RC, most people want to policy lynch you, but they're idiots. The correct play is to policy town you.

Given there's a 50% chance he's scum in this game, it's the equivalent of flipping a coin.

[Shoshin]

You're not wrong about policy towning RC in most games though. Better than policy lynching for sure.

[Shoshin]

That still doesn't explain why he's stronger town than me.

[Shoshin]

RC are you okay?

[Shoshin]

This game is boring.

[Shoshin]

Why do you think I'm scum?

[Shoshin]

I'm not really pushing Saudade yet?

[Shoshin]

What would I have posted if town? What was your alternative prediction?

[Shoshin]

Boring.

[Shoshin]

Let's lynch MS.

[Shoshin]

Auro/Volxen are never this underwhelming.

[Shoshin]

Enter, you know the game I caught Saudade in. Do you remember my reasoning in that game? How do you think it applies in this game?

[Shoshin]

What's your read on Sau, U2?

[Shoshin]

I'm waiting on RC.

[Shoshin]

I've never seen Saudade try this hard except as scum. He replaces out of most games when town.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Saudade

If anyone doesn't understand why, I'll explain later tonight when I'm around.

[Shoshin]

That's a blatant lie

It's not hard to prove what I'm saying by pulling up your games. Are you really going to pretend like this isn't true?

[Shoshin]

I've never seen Saudade try this hard except as scum. He replaces out of most games when town.

wait wait wait

are you now saying your meta read is that if saudade stays in a game, he is probably scum?

No, there's more to it than that. But as a general point, Saudade puts a lot more effort into his scum games than town. He also likes to play up how great he is as scum a lot so it's probably because he prefers that alignment.

[Shoshin]

Yeah, he replaced out late in the game after he got caught, Enter. I'm not saying he doesn't replace out as scum. I'm talking about his meta in general. And in that game, he was much more tryhard than I've ever seen him as town, and this game he's even more tryhard than that.

[Shoshin]

That's the other thing I'm talking about, Shoshin, that was part of your argument in the game we were talking about and he's not talking up his play here

Yeah he is. He's acting like he's never been caught in his life.

[Shoshin]

I don't have time for this right now. I'll be back later tonight to explain more in-depth.

[Shoshin]

I played with Saudade on an alt called Suka. I called him out immediately upon replacing into the game. I already knew his meta from another context so I knew that he tended to post a lot more as scum than he did as vanilla town, and that he tended to replace out of games when vanilla town much more than he would as town PR or as scum (these are meta facts that you can check). The reasons I suspected him in that game are entirely present in this game, and I'm happy to explain the comparisons later when I have time.

Saudade for sure remembers this because my name -- Suka -- was of interest to him. I'm not making anything up. You can check the game history. I tunneled Saudade the whole game until he was eventually lynched three days later. Enter knows this is true because he replaced Saudade's slot on the last day phase of the game when Saudade was already going down.

The biggest difference between town Saudade and scum Saudade is that scum Saudade makes a lot more posts and attempts to drop town tells into the game. He seems to enjoy manipulating players more than he enjoys scumhunting. When he says stuff like, "I just copy paste my posts as either alignment," that's a scum tell for Saudade. It's the sort of fake town tell stuff that I'm talking about. In the other game I was in with him, that's the stuff I was mostly referring to as scum tells. Check this if you don't trust me.

[Shoshin]

Gimme a town game then.

You will not find a town game where he puts in anything close to half the effort he's shown this game. Not a one.

[Shoshin]

Shoshin do u not see that URAP2 is obvscum here

Maybe, I don't feel comfortable reading him. I'm confident on Sau.

[Shoshin]

You were commenting about the meaning of Suka in Russian. I doubt you forget that.

[Shoshin]

What I'm saying about his alignment is 100% accurate based on meta. Check for yourself.

[Shoshin]

Enter's just talking about the stuff I called you out for in the other game.

[Shoshin]

I've played two games with Saudade where he was town, one game where he was scum, and I spectated another game where he was town. I've also read a bunch of his games. If I really need to go through each game individually to point out these tendencies, I'll be doing that later tonight, not right now. But I'd much rather if people don't trust me and just check for themselves.

[Shoshin]

Who is Sau's partner, RC?

[Shoshin]

Shoshin why did you ask me about your case on Saudade in the other game

Because I tend to get biased sometimes when players are pushing my lynch the way Saudade was and I wanted to get an outside view.

[Shoshin]

I remember all the players I've played with. Don't get mad because I'm good at mafia.

[Shoshin]

Okay, RC. What is the right thing here?

[Shoshin]

Yes, I see you haven't hammered. If you have a better lynch option, talk to me about it RC.

[Shoshin]

UNVOTE:

Why is U2 scum over Sau? Please help me understand the reasoning.

[Shoshin]

It's funny that Sau thinks I'd forget him despite playing three games with him plus spectating another.

[Shoshin]

Why aren't you voting Sau, RC?

[Shoshin]

You seem lost this game. Can you trust me on Sau? I'm as confident here as I was on Random in Labyrinth.

[Shoshin]

if Shoshin by chance gets to 2 votes somehow im insta hammering that shit

He's openly wolfing at this point.

[Shoshin]

I much prefer if people don't trust me on the meta and check it for themselves.

[Shoshin]

I prefer if people fact check. I haven't revisited Sau's meta so there is a possibility I'm remembering wrong.

[Shoshin]

I've been saying I will later tonight.

[Shoshin]

In my mind I was thinking revisit games to prove memory correct. I'm really confident I'm right, like 95%, just saying it's possible I misremembered plus I prefer others to check it.

[Shoshin]

I unvoted a while ago.

[Shoshin]

I think you already should know this.

[Shoshin]

What are your concerns, RC?

[Shoshin]

That's common when I'm town so I dunno what to tell you?

[Shoshin]

I don't want to say at this time for reasons.

[Shoshin]

i'm rally just trying to explore ms/shoshin

i'm trying to find counter-arguments to this theory

Besides the fact that I don't play scum like this, me unvoting Sau when MS could have hammered should make it pretty clear your theory is wrong.

[Shoshin]

I'm disengaged?

[Shoshin]

If I'm scum with MS, I keep my vote on Sau until MS hammers him, not dismantle the wagon while waiting on RC to convince me on a different wagon.

[Shoshin]

If I were scum in this setup, I'd hammer a town if given the opportunity. Why would I let that slip away?

[Shoshin]

If I'm scum with MS, I keep my vote on Sau until MS hammers him, not dismantle the wagon while waiting on RC to convince me on a different wagon.

you didn't dismantle the wagon, urap did.

Are you reading the same game as me?

I unvoted Sau. U2 followed after me while saying he'd hammer Sau if that were a thing again.

If I'm scum with MS, all we have to do is vote Sau with U2. This game would be over.

[Shoshin]

Also want to point out that you're not playing like you did in 8-ball.

in 8-ball you pushed saudade and then considered other players as a possibility, pushing eslewhere to expand your reads

your case was small and basic and you spent the rest of the game trying to convince

here you wrote quite a bit of worsdd for a very small case and you spend more time trying to prove the validity of your case than you do actually pushing saudade

Suka was an experimental play style, and this is a LYLO-type situation which I treat very differently than normal.

[Shoshin]

I don't think Enter's description of my play as Suka is accurate at all.

[Shoshin]

if sau gets 2 votes ill hammer it npnp

Read the game, Enter.

[Shoshin]

I'm more confident when there's more room for error. And my confidence levels vary a lot from game to game. And Suka was different than my normal play style either way.

[Shoshin]

I could care less if Enter loses.

[Shoshin]

RC & U2.

[Shoshin]

You think Saudade's town, Enter?

[Shoshin]

Why is Saudade town?

[Shoshin]

We're not playing for your solve so that isn't helpful to me. I'd like to know if there's actual reasons to townread Saudade.

[Shoshin]

I still harbor doubts on U2 by the way.

[Shoshin]

Okay, I'm glad you feel confident in your solve. I'm still trying to figure this out. I have some minor doubts on RC as well if I'm completely transparent (though I don't really want to talk about this too much because he's off the table for lynching).

[Shoshin]

You don't normally play the way you're playing this game, RC, so you'll have to forgive me the doubts.

[Shoshin]

Why not MS?

[Shoshin]

I think I'm pretty clearly not Sau's partner so I don't know how you get there, RC.

[Shoshin]

Then why would I do that as scum?

[Shoshin]

The reason I have doubts about you is because you didn't vote Sau, RC. The fact you're suddenly pushing me/Sau is making it seem like maybe those doubts are right.

[Shoshin]

You're willing to vote Sau now?

[Shoshin]

I'm not scumreading you, RC. What the fuck?

[Shoshin]

There's weird things like Shoshin saying that she wanted other people to double check her meta, Shoshin unvoting at L1, still scumreading me even though no matter who my scumbuddy is I have had ample opportunity to have this game long over, etc.

This is why I shouldn't have said anything. My bad.

[Shoshin]

How do you think I feel when you're calling me scum straight-up?

[Shoshin]

I just find it weird that you're pushing Sau/me when I'm so clearly not aligned with Sau, RC.

[Shoshin]

I think most likely partner for Sau is MS. And somehow you're townreading MS more than me, RC? That feels wrong to me.

[Shoshin]

Okay, RC. I hope your real life stuff clears up and that you feel better. I'm sorry I added stress to your life.

[Shoshin]

If MS flips town, who would you select Enter?

[Shoshin]

Okay, I see why from your perspective you want an MS flip.

[Shoshin]

I'm not ignoring you.