Open 753: Nomination Mafia [Game Over!]

[Auro]

Rolled town :3 Volxen and Irre, I hope you guys did too!

VOTE: Demonlord

Ooh.

[Auro]

This could be a wolf post

Why do you think so?

Did you consider that my post may have had some background context behind it?

[Auro]

Auro/Radiant town till further notice

Are you reading off RVS posts, or were you going to do this anyway?

[Auro]

I absolutely am assuming you are

I still don't get town feels from it

Hm, okay.

[Auro]

I'm in the airport rn, gonna be boarding in a few minutes.

[Auro]

Irrelephant's excited for this game. What do you think that means about his alignment, Auro?

I don't think it implies anything about his alignment.
We were excited to play this game together anyway, too.

I'm mildly townreading Volxen's excitement.

[Auro]

i havent seen such in a long time, but i personally just dislike all these, "i wish you are a particular alignment this time!" kidna post

Except Volxen posts like this all the time.

[Auro]

it's really atrocious that mafiascummers keep saying, "certain player posts like this all the time"

do you expect me to know that? do you want to elaborate on what that factor makes how you view the current thread stage?

why are you constantly commenting?

i quite frankly do not care about meta aorn

I don't expect you to know that. I expect you to work in this new information to inform your reads better.

Your attack on Volxen is NAI to me.

"I don't care for meta" is a poor response - if a player displayed a behaviour as town in the past, this means said behaviour is at worst NAI, in isolation.

[Auro]

specify what you mean by "this is town volxen"

I never said that. I said town!Volxen in previous games did this -> therefore that doesn't lend him scum equity this game.

I'm mild-townreading Volxen off his excitement, I've played with him in both alignments and think I'd recognize scum!Volx

[Auro]

take that with a grain of salt though

I'm leaning town on Clemency too now.

[Auro]

too many people just saying, "XXX posts that all the time" on this website to just simply comment on my well-thought out cases and try to shade it.

Except it's not "shade", it's a fact I can back up with evidence that contradicts your "case".

[Auro]

you are telling me that in a game of lying and deceiving it is scummy for me to not take in what another person is saying as a lord almighty truth of the holy spirit objective fact immediately?

Why didn't you ask me to back up my assertion, then?

[Auro]

Scum Reading has the only non RVS reason to vote me as far as I can see, and I explained why it was incorrect.

[Auro]

I'm not able to reconcile your response here with your "I don't care for meta" response.

VOTE: DoubtingThomas

[Auro]

the case is that he has couple posts i thnik were >rand scummy and worth talking about. so i am going from there

Which ones, and why?
No one's explained it so far as far as I can see, how would you expect me to respond to the "case" then?

[Auro]

I have, I fail to see a case on me. Maybe I'm just dumb, quote please?

[Auro]

And there's a difference between being wrong and being belligerent and obnoxious and wrong.

Sure. When people keep telling you your read is bad your reaction shouldn't be to double down.

keep pushing me. i am just gonna wait until someone else posts something of value

I have, I fail to see a case on me. Maybe I'm just dumb, quote please?

[Auro]

EBWOP: Nevermind

[Auro]

too many people just saying, "XXX posts that all the time" on this website to just simply comment on my well-thought out cases and try to shade it.

Except it's not "shade", it's a fact I can back up with evidence that contradicts your "case".

ok start bringing evidence that contradicts other people's "case" on you tbh

So here you didn't mean the case on me, but on Volxen? Okay.
I'm waiting to take off, so later.
I want to observe Volxen's reaction to it too, anyway.

[Auro]

because people refused to townread me when I was objectively towny

If you possess the self-awareness to recognize what should make you look towny, and you're reputed as one of the best scum players on site -- why would this come as a surprise?

[Auro]

And auro too, since its the wagon of the week

I've been pretty straightforward with my reads so far. Why would a readslist, which basically contains the same information, help you sort me further?

[Auro]

VOTE: auroL-2
because pressure is pressure even if i say it out loud

VOTE: auroL-2
because pressure is pressure even if i say it out loud

You're voting the single towniest living player

i'm aware

Townreading someone and putting them at L-2 because "pressure is pressure" - I don't like this vote.

[Auro]

let me ask you this again -- you think i should have unvoted while saying, "oh thanks for letting me know volxen's meta he sure is not scum anymore this game 100%!!"

No - but a town reaction would be to acknowledge the new information, and attempt to re-evaluate. It would've been fine to still have an early scumread given that.

[Auro]

I feel like you're missing the point.

You're saying you acknowledged it, but your reaction right after I made the post didn't indicate that. What I got from your immediate reaction was a stubborn dismissal, which you now admit was overboard.

[Auro]

And auro too, since its the wagon of the week

I've been pretty straightforward with my reads so far. Why would a readslist, which basically contains the same information, help you sort me further?

@Fus

I do not know why you continue this. You arent in the hot seat, and its gone past the point where we need it. We need others to input, and the more i think about it the more I could let auro swing.

How about your own inputs on the attacks both ways?
Why do you think this exchange is useless? Have you formed reads on both players already?
"Let Auro swing" huh?

[Auro]

First off, scums are not the only one who have a stubborn dismissal tone. Second, why in the world would town be the only people to quickly accept person B giving off of a meta info on person A?

1. Sure, bad town can do that too.
2. In context, there's scum motivation in pushing through when town they're targeting is defended. Also town (who's trying to solve) if skeptical of the meta info, would question it rather than push through.

[Auro]

My vote was well-placed at that time and it was used to gain information

Auro’s posting seems townie, but I’m not willing to place my town read on him yet just because his posts look townie.

What information did you gain from my reaction(s)?
You find Fus/Irrelephant's posts townie, therefore townread them - why does that not apply to me?
What's the difference in your mind?

[Auro]

I lost my light townread on DT for a bit while reading the argument with RC, but it sorta came back in the past couple pages

Was there anything specific in those pages that got you to townread DT again?
Walk me through your townread, please

[Auro]

VOTE: Auro

Irrelephant's excited for this game. What do you think that means about his alignment, Auro?

VOTE: Irrelephant

Why the naked votes, sans explanation?
Is it Irre's excitement that makes you think he's scum?
If not, what is?

[Auro]

I was hoping to see how you'd reply, instead you just acted like nothing happened.

I responded to your vote, by explaining my then irregular posting.
I identified a bad vote on my wagon (Clemency) and stated it.
The other two votes were RVS. How is my response not adequate?

The difference is, as I've mentioned, I look at posts like "I rolled town" with skepticism. Call it being closed-minded, but I don't usually buy that stuff.

So - you're skeptical of my

RVS

post - which I later explained had some background to it (which Volx/Irre can attest to), to such an extent that even though my later posts feel townie to you, you still don't think I deserve a townread. Correct?

As for your vote on DT, do you think he's scum? If so, what indicates towards that? What are your clues on him?

Yes, ATM I think he's likely scum - I've explained in part. I'm not able to place his reaction to 91 from a town perspective and it looks inconsistent with his later explanations. His constant misrep of both mine and RC's arguments seems scummy. I don't find his other posts in his exchange with RC towny either, whereas others seem to - which I'm curious to hear about.

[Auro]

Aura

Auto

Aero

[Auro]

it's possible from their history that they don't like each other and that these exchanges would happen regardless of alignment.

You feel their exchange does imply a possible "bad history" between them, which is correct.
You believe these exchanges would then happen regardless of alignment.
Then why do you believe it can't be a TvT? If the exchanges were to happen regardless of alignment, it could very well be TvT, no?

[Auro]

Irrel's excitement means he's scum, yes.

Is there clear meta of Irrelephant11 being unexcited as town and excited as scum?
Does my saying that Irre was excited to sign up for a game before the game started, not affect your read?

[Auro]

Those absolutely are.
You're asserting that Irrel's excitement makes him scum. I'm asking you to support your assertion with evidence.

[Auro]

Listen, if you present a case on Clemency, I’m willing to push with you. You seem town to me, if you play like this when you are scum, then props to you man, got balls

What do you make of Clemency's earlier vote on me, putting me at L-2 inspite of townreading me?
He seems to be riling RC up intentionally now - do you see town motivation for that?

[Auro]

if we're going by meta my scum meta is continuous prod dodging

active lurking is what i do as town

Clemency, are you saying you did

not

active-lurk in the Red Flag game RC linked?
If you're claiming it's your scum meta to prod-dodge and town meta to active-lurk, explain this.

[Auro]

From a read of the last few pages, I'm at:

RC townlean - nearly same solve; also I don't think this particular AtE comes from scum!him, he knows it'd work only once. I think scum!RC would approach this game differently.
Irrelephant townlean - for his interactions with RC when there's no incentive to; I feel like in that gamestate scum would've simply coasted
Shoshin's - Scumlean for quite a few things. Maybe it's because she plays in a manner different from what I expect from a "good townie" but that's also behaviour that's easy to fake; I can go into this in detail if anyone wants that.
Clemency - Scum..? I've been shit tunneled by him in the past (when I discovered a breaking strat and it was objectively sub-optimal to lynch me) so I know he's capable of doing this as town. As usual, there's nothing towny about his play here and I think it deserves a lynch nonetheless.
DoubtingThomas - Irre was right that DT admitting to having gone overboard redeems his slot to an extent; I think I naturally read abrasiveness and hostility as scummy, so I'm not sure.

[Auro]

>Bad push on Irre's excitement and refusal to answer my questions asking why
>Refusal to explain stances
>"I'm not scum, I'm disappointed in you"
>"If you want to push my lynch I'll push a lynch on you"
>"It's absurd you think I'm scum"

Also:

When I beat you as scum, RC, I'm going to be so town that you're going to be telling everyone never to lynch me as I lead your mislynch.

I get the feeling she's deliberately not putting in effort to look towny from this quote, and for some reason thinks that should get her townread?

[Auro]

I feel like DT has cut off too many relationships this game to be scum, like as scum why does he want me/RC/you/Shoshin annoyed with him

I'm guessing it's a playstyle thing - I'll read some of his old games to be sure. How do you form reads on abrasive players in general?

[Auro]

Irrel's excitement means he's scum, yes.

This was your "explanation"? Doesn't feel like one, I recall asking you to provide evidence he gets more excited as scum which you said was "useless". If you explained this later, I might have missed it - apologies.

[Auro]

Is there something fake about feeling disappointed when you're incorrectly scumread?

Possibly. Continuously saying stuff like "I'm disappointed", "It's absurd you think I'm scum", "I'll push you if you push me" seems easy to fake, no? Like I'd expect town to work on the pushes and see where they're originating, and make a better attempt to look towny.

[Auro]

The point behind this post is that I'd be interacting with RC very differently if I were scum who knew he was town. Why are you making up a false narrative from thin air?

I'm specifically talking about the "I'd look so town" part.

[Auro]

This is your evidence, Auro. I thought you would have picked this up if you cared that much.

Still a bad push. Also, you asked me what I thought initially, I said he was excited to play a game with me before the game started - this didn't do anything to affect your push either.

[Auro]

Who cares what's possible? Just because something's easy to fake doesn't mean it's more likely to come from scum. What kind of reasoning is this?

Adopting a playstyle that's easier to fake points to likelier scum, is my point, when you know you're not appearing as Towny as you could.

You're framing all of this as specific to RC interactions; I'll consider that.

[Auro]

I'd have been trying a lot harder to be townread if I were scum, RC. I'd also be trying to push your lynch.

Here^ One more post that indicates you know you're not putting in effort to look towny. And then surprised when people scumread you?

[Auro]

I think you're letting Irrel off too easy for scumreading me when he should know better. I understand why RC would get paranoid but Irrel should know that my play here wasn't anything like what he saw as scum.

This was your other reason to push Irre?
Still bad

[Auro]

You've somehow taken the idea that I'm not focusing exclusively on getting townread as somehow indicative that I'm scum? What is this logic, Auro?

No. You know you're not putting in effort to look towny. You're adopting a style which I see as easier to fake. And yet, you find it absurd when anyone scumreads you.

I'll take 679 into consideration.

[Auro]

There's a difference between having RC scumread me and having him null on me. I'd understand if he were null. I don't believe he should ever have scumread me. I've done nothing scummy.

Umm, why aren't players allowed to have a nullscum read on you if you're posting, but did nothing towny yet (in your admission) either?

[Auro]

I'm appearing as towny as I possibly can in THIS game as n actual townie.

Okay, I get what you mean - you're claiming as scum you'd be manipulative enough to be widely townread; and as town now you're appearing as towny as you can possibly be. Correct? Looking towny isn't just a function of manipulating people, though.

I disagree you're extremely towny this game.

"Nullscum isn't acceptable for doing nothing" -> why not? If there's a slot I know I can sort, and they're doing nothing, I'll naturally put them at nullscum.

[Auro]

Why are you making all this crap up about me?

You're saying it's a stretch to assume stuff like "I'd be trying a lot harder to be townread as scum" to be indicative that you're not trying to be townread as town?

[Auro]

I think Shoshin is town

What do you make of her push on you?
What makes you feel she's town?

[Auro]

It doesn't imply that I'm not trying.

It implies you're trying a lot less harder than you possibly can.
I independently don't get the feel that you're putting in effort to look town, aside from saying this.

I'll revisit this later.

Meanwhile: I'm okay with a Clem wagon but I think I'd be happier on Demonlord - is that lynch possible?

[Auro]

RadiantCowbells, can you explain why Wazoo is superlocktown?

[Auro]

VOTE: Clemency

Would prefer Demonlord, but only slightly.

[Auro]

What's your read on Fusco?

Nullscum.

Seriously though, I don't have any solid impression of him either way - kinda get the feeling he's coasting by.

[Auro]

I'm liking GrandWazoo for town.

Volxen, what's your read on me?

[Auro]

Damn, with all this confusion, I’ll keep in check people that are active lurking. Fus, can you post some reads? By the way, can we get over the rc theatre and try to scum hunt and not engage in stupid conversations, thanks

This looks like active lurking.

[Auro]

Auro: given your 661 and the extended 1v1 that followed, I'm surprised you've dropped your push on Shoshin. Has she said or done anything that makes her town from your pov? Clemency otoh doesn't inspire confidence but hasn't done much that I'd call scummy. You've barely engaged with him yet voting him. Why?

I'm not perfectly satisfied with her response to my push, but I stated I'll revisit that later, no? I think there are scummier slots to pursue at the moment, and I think I may be biased against her adopted playstyle - can you point out anything actively scummy you think she did?

It's untrue that I've barely engaged with Clemency. I have asked him questions earlier, I'm waiting for him to respond. However, I don't really expect a meaningful response - I've played with Clemency in the past, and his posts are noise to me, and I don't recall him ever making a good-faith attempt to engage as town.

For example,

Spoiler:

I mean the answer isn't too hard to think about. Just wanna see you gamesolve, bud

my methods are an enigma

A small list of things I find scummy, which Clemency did:
> His L-2 vote on me,

inspite

of townreading me, because "when was the last time you saw the first wagon on a >9 player game go through"
> Riling up RC - gamestate manipulation, considering he has history with RC and knows what would happen
> Misrepresentation of self-meta in 362 and 366

Why do you not find these scummy?

[Auro]

@GW's 720:
1. Re: Policy lynches, Why not? I'd be against a policy lynch on RC for "being too good as scum", for example; but you could call my Clemency push an effective policy-lynch too since I can imagine his play coming from town as well (from experience).
2. "Only scum would know who's nominated" - I think this is a stretch, and she's clearly speaking in context, you're interpreting the intent of the post wrongly.
3. About the "if you push me I'll push you" - I brought the same point up in my push, and her rebuttal was that it was her applying a BoP to RC. While I don't like it much, can you not see this coming from town?

[Auro]

wazoo i think is superlocktown for reasons

What were those reasons? What changed your read on him?

[Auro]

I think Volxen's alignment will become more obvious with time, when he's had an opportunity to post more.

[Auro]

Still tr Sr.

Can you explain what makes SR town?

[Auro]

I actually like Wazoo's posts - they appear mechanical maybe yeah, but I'm sure it's playstyle.

What do you mean, he's not attempting to sort you/RC?
It's clear he left RC because he perceived a lynch there wasn't happening today.
He was casing you and engaging with me about your slot.

[Auro]

His reason for townreading DT appears similar to Irre's reason -- that he feels DT is trying to gamesolve without bothering about looking scummy -- I think that's a valid stance to take.

[Auro]

I don't get that feel.

His response to the RC/DT thing was that it's likely that one is aggressive scum riling up the other - I think it's a fair stance.
He explicitly stated he had a scumlean on Clemency but there's better pushes to make - Valid.

Was he questioned about townreads?

[Auro]

@Shoshin:
His strength in taking stances I find towny. Strong hunch it's playstyle because I feel like I've seen this kinda playstyle as town before.

RC/DT not being TvT is a fine stance for him to have taken IMO; of course it follows that he'd pick a side. I'm not so sure about him having targeted as you as a result of my push alone; it's a possibility, I'll take note of this.

Stubbornness isn't necessarily scummy IMO.

@Irre:
Yes, I agree with that - if Clemency flips red, it's pretty likely that GW could be a partner.

[Auro]

It's clear he left RC because he perceived a lynch there wasn't happening today.

That's fine. Why vote me over Clemency?

He answered this - he's fine voting Clemency, but felt he there was a better push. He clearly scumread you to a higher degree than he did Clemency - I fail to see the problem here?

[Auro]

Why would town Wazoo think me/RC is SvS?

I'm interested in Wazoo's answer to this question.

[Auro]

I'm sorry for your failure, Auro.

No, do explain - if I do scumread two players, but one more than another, what's the problem with me pushing the slot I find scummier?

[Auro]

Shoshin, I get that. The timing of pushes in both cases (RC and you) is suspect, it does look like he's calculating potential attack vectors that can shift the pressure off Clemency - but this is convincing assuming Clemency himself is scum - so I'll be more convinced of it once we get a Clem red flip.

[Auro]

@Irre: I want to lynch in Clemency and Demonlord for now.
I can compromise to DoubtingThomas and Scum Reading.
If Clemency flips red I'll be inclined to lynch GrandWazoo, but independent of the association I still feel he's town.
Shoshin I'll evaluate later.

[Auro]

No read on Fusco. What's yours?

[Auro]

I only got the impression he was kinda coasting by, I need him to post more before I can sort him with any confidence.

[Auro]

I'm losing my confidence in auro town for some reason

If you can figure out why, do tell.

[Auro]

It was the 2* description of fuscoscos as kinda coasting by

Why is this scummy? Do you not think he is?

[Auro]

Auro/Fusco team because Auro's null on Fusco, and gets the impression he's coasting but that there's not enough content to sort him?

[Auro]

It was the reuse of the exact same phrasing with no attempt to follow up.

Follow up with? I did ask Shoshin about her own read, and was expecting to engage on it further before you guys pounced upon the whole "Auro/Fusco scumteam" thing.

[Auro]

Volxen can be a lot better than this as town.

It's *much* more probable he hasn't found time to post yet.
Wait until he does.

[Auro]

It's only been 2 days.

[Auro]

Some scum players don't try to push mislynches and just try to be as Towny as possible

Not my scum meta.

[Auro]

Your reason for scumreading me - off a pre-flip association with Fusco - is bad.

I'm aggressive as scum.

[Auro]

Fair enough.

[Auro]

Yo guys, I'm up.

Skimmed the last few pages, yeah Wazoo's treatment of RC seems inconsistent for a slot he's sure is scum

I'll vote; can we have a VC?

[Auro]

Auro was posting some good stuff but then kinda just backed away into the shadows.

I... had gone to sleep, though.
This feels fake.

[Auro]

Who do you think are his partners, Wazoo?

[Auro]

Won't it be 6v3 D3?

[Auro]

Oh lol

[Auro]

For now, I townread you. You are more familiar with me than anyone here, and if I think if you were scum, you would probably try to capitalize on the fact that I haven't posted much to try and scumpaint me. For example, you might have linked to Newbie 1900 (Robocalypse), and used meta from that game to try and make a case for scum!Volxen. The fact that you haven't jumped at the opportunity to shade me over not posting a lot yet is at least somewhat town-indicative for you.

Hmm. I expected you to respond with a hard null, since you know my scum game and also know it's easily within my range to defend you as scum when I know you can obvtown later as town. Sorry Volx, but your read on me feels a bit made-up :$

[Auro]

VOTE: Wazoo

[Auro]

Rwstfo?

?

[Auro]

A townread from you is different from a townread from other slots, Volx.
I'm not suggesting you shouldn't have a read on me yet - I'm saying I didn't expect that read from you given your history with me (for example, look at FTL where you had me as potential scum even after I exhibited indirect knowledge of the leader).

The second paragraph makes sense.

[Auro]

Why?

[Auro]

I'm willing to listen to you, Clemency, if you gamesolve

[Auro]

Don't even talk to him and saying this really annoys me btw

I'm trying to do something here

[Auro]

i gave up trying when rc self voted and didnt immediately get lynched for it

If he did it as town then why is it AI for him?

[Auro]

RC are you claiming BoP for this as well?

[Auro]

What do you make of it?

[Auro]

RC, your play confuses me.

[Auro]

scumread Wazoo more

Don't you have DT as a townread?

[Auro]

You're more sure of DT than Clemency too?

VOTE: DoubtingThomas

[Auro]

FWIW I don't think anyone has SO accurate reads that a single mislynch makes them scum, RC. If you don't explicitly say "Sheep me and speedlynch me if it's a mislynch" I don't think people would auto-lynch you, especially if the reasons for the lynch are legitimate.

[Auro]

If I don't say that I won't have the power to independently decide lynches

Or just... Show us why they're the best lynch and convince us, and we'd follow?

[Auro]

Hey Shoshin.

His content so far I can see coming from him either alignment - I still find his townread on me slightly fishy, even though his reasoning behind it makes sense.

As I said before, I can confidently sort him once he starts posting significantly, if he continues this rate of posting he's likelier scum.

[Auro]

I will be mistrusted and incapable of influencing town if I lead a mislynch regardless of how good my reasons are. I might as well skip the step of giving reasons if it doesn't really hurt me or town to do so

Eh dude, I think this kinda play makes it less fun for the rest of us, at least me.

But you do you

[Auro]

Trusting RC + I'm fine with a DT lynch independently anyway.

[Auro]

Nah. If the case is legitimate and worth sheeping, it'll be easier to believe the push came from town over the universe where someone's leading a Lynch without any case.

[Auro]

1. He asked, I know his reputation, and he feels like town.
2. Stubbornness and abrasiveness, hides his lack of gamesolving while hurting the gamestate
3. Clemency.

[Auro]

Notably I already said that demonlord site flaked sooo

I agree with a Demon scumread. His flaking apart, "I forgot about the game" I find scummy, his sudden taking a side between you and DT seems opportunistic (esp given his confidence in those reads) and "Auro was posting good stuff but backed into the shadows" is bad too.

His only legitimate reads were town you and scum DT based entirely off the little bit of conflict between the two of you he read.

[Auro]

Does anyone think this is an accurate description of wazoos game so far

When I said I liked his posting much earlier, did that affect your read on me?

[Auro]

Yes and I believe it was around that point that I scumread you

You're talking about me?

[Auro]

[Auro]

RC I know you are a mentally weak person,

This is gross.

[Auro]

Why is Wazoo scum, RC? Point me to the key posts.

Don't you think the "4v3" slip looks faked for one?

[Auro]

Why is Wazoo scum, RC? Point me to the key posts.

Don't you think the "4v3" slip looks faked for one?

Why would scum fake this?

Obviously scum knows this is false so it's conceivable that he felt if people bought the tell, they'd think he was town for it.

Thus making it worth faking. Also the timing of it, as RC pointed out.

[Auro]

Don't worry, RC. We have the votes to lynch Wazoo, it's just a matter of timing.

+1

I think it benefits town to wait.

[Auro]

No it doesn't

I assure you I'll vote with you wherever, I just want them to post.

[Auro]

VOTE: Wazoo

Don't replace out please

[Auro]

There's something specific I expect Volxen to say to me rn if he's town.

[Auro]

He'd say that regardless of alignment <3

[Auro]

Ok Volxen didn't say the thing I expected him to :/

[Auro]

Wazoo, you seem rather focused on RC/Shoshin; I've also agreed with the scumread on you and am sheeping RC on to you, what's your read on me?

[Auro]

How did Shoshin/Irrel approach you in bad faith?
Wtf do you mean, Shoshin/me/Volxen flexing our "scum epeens"?

Firstly scumreading you isn't gamethrowing.
Also your reputation as a top-tier scum player implies it's not going to be easy to townread you D1. Why is this affecting you this much?

Pedit: You're the one who *asked* to be BoP'd, though?

[Auro]

Volxen, I didn't reply to your question on me re: Scum Reading. I expected you to pick up on my lack of response and follow up on it; but you continued to explain why you townread me. Red flag

[Auro]

"Nullscum" is a terrible thing to say about someone who isn't towny yet.

What's your read on Fusco?

Nullscum.

What's your read on Fusco, RC?

nullscum

Lol

[Auro]

I withdraw any reads I've given. this game made me too unhappy for my reads to be at all reliable. etc.

gl, not responding any further.

If the scum strategy is to rile you up as a team they're succeeding, and that also implies a decent chance of Wazoo bluffing about his alignment right now.

[Auro]

Shoshin, when did I become locktown for you?

[Auro]

My right thumb's tendons got suddenly imflammed or some shit, it hurts real bad so I'll probably be less active for a while.

Irrelephant is hard-town for me.

Shoshin, I'd like for you to respond to my earlier question re: when I became locktown for you.

Volxen being a nom with these two is interesting, and I seriously doubt scum!Volx would nominate himself along with these two especially when he's being slightly scumread already.

@Volx, I typed up a response to your post but the thread got locked. However a TL;Dr:
1. Following up would be mostly NAI for you, but not doing so is likelier scum.
2. SR reminds me of Pintu from SC2. Would you agree?

Also, I think RC's slot is town.

[Auro]

With shoshin being active and her being an asset to town up to this point, I’d go for a volxen lynch. Any thoughts on this?

Asset to town - can you describe in more detail, please?

[Auro]

His treatment of my slot - in the Newbie game I played alongside town!him, he townread me, and attempted to achieve consensus on that read after a couple others TR'd me, too.

He did the same thing in this game as well, and I do not see scum!him intentionally doing that. I'll dig up the quotes when I can.

[Auro]

Chainsaw

VOTE: Fuscosco

[Auro]

Yep! Are you?

[Auro]

Very bad reason to townread Irrel. I strongly suggest you look at his scum games for comparison. Remember, he prefers scum for a reason.

You haven't explained why it's a bad townread.

I put forth a certain behaviour I've seen him do as town, and noted that:
1. I don't see scum!Irre faking this behaviour as opposed to him naturally doing it as town.
2. From my perspective, it doesn't work towards scum!Irre's favor by doing this.

What kind of evidence from his scumgames would disprove this? What does him preferring scum have to do with it?
On a side note, do you see scum!Irre nominating himself with you and Volxen?

[Auro]

because Irrelephant wants to keep him alive while removing actual threats (e.g. me or Volx)

Where does it appear that Volxen is a 'threat' to Irrelephant?

[Auro]

Looking at her ISO, she’s trying to get conversations started and share reads with people, her and irrelephant scum read me and she has talked with him about my slot. She is trying to get everyone’s reactions on slots like mine and she isn’t hardcore pushing me as well, her entire iso on day one was revolved around scum hunting and generating discussions, she has been asking good questions and didn’t seem scummy doing it, I don’t see why there would be a reason to vote Shoshin.

As for Irrelephant, same thing, I have him as locked-town for constantly updating his reads and trying to get conversations started, sharing opinions on scum slots ( when you and irrelephant discussed town reads and scum reads) Besides, half of day 1 was this trio that were scum hunting and having control over everything -> Irrelephant, Shoshin and RC. They were all game solving and I believe scum wouldn’t want to be in the spotlight so much. Most of my reasoning for my town reads is based on gur as well, I usually scum read easily, but I didn’t get any scum tells from either one of them, so of course that would leave Volxen as the safest lynch because of his lack of contribution to town.

Do you believe that scum!Shoshin and/or scum!Irre would not look towny as scum?
Why would scum not want to be in the spotlight? Especially in a nightless game, it's more beneficial to look as towny as possible.

[Auro]

Volxen is probtown.

Volxen, I think your conclusion that I could be scum has some faults.

Firstly, it conflicts with my stated positions throughout the game (where I resign to a null on Shoshin after pushing her initially, deciding on sorting her later) - my entrance to this day also has me towncasing you and arguing with someone who voted you (SR). And my stated positions are also sub-optimal for scum me.
Secondly, trying to get rid of you as scum is arguably far more sub-optimal strategy for me to take as opposed to buddying you - the former causes me to get scumread on your mislynch, while the latter doesn't hurt me even if you scumread me, since others townread me strong enough for that.
Third, it is plainly obvious to me that you can obv-town it up; in what universe do you expect scum!Auro to nominate you *without* the expectation that you would town it up?
Fourth, and this is important - why do you assume Shoshin was a universal townread? Plenty of slots pushed her in D1 if I recall correctly. This alone should disprove the idea that scum selected nominees specifically to disprove you.
Fifth, even going with that line of thought - one doesn't need extensive meta-knowledge to want to get rid of you. *Multiple times*, and I can quote, you stated that you would be "obvtown" and "unlynchable" later in the game. I explicitly defended you by saying we don't lynch you till you've had an opportunity to post more and town yourself up.

For scum!Auro, this is a bad set of nominations if all town. Scum!Auro would expect town!Volxen to obvtown it within the next 7 days; and then has to lynch between Irrelephant and Shoshin - both townreading him strongly.

[Auro]

Also, the competing hypothesis for why you were nominated, if Shoshin is town:

I think you were in the same tier as {DemonLord, Fuscosco, Clemency, DoubtingThomas} as far as scum's concerned. Nominating three extremely towny slots like {RC, Irre, Auro} gets rid of one of them, sure, but also serves to confirm the other two - so it's a smart move to replace one of the obvtown slots with a scummy-looking slot and play up the WIFOM. Which is good WIFOM, as seen in early D2 in this thread - multiple people (including me) believed you were town as scum!you would never gladiate with stronger players.

Between {Volxen, Demon, Fus, Clem, DT} you're the slot that is potentially most bothersome for scum if they picked up on your "unlynchable late stage" assertion, making you a decent pick if they were going for {2 townie, 1 scummy} nomination pick. However, I don't feel that Shoshin was universally townie - I think it's probable that scum viewed her as a threat.

Which does lend credence to the idea of Irre being scum - being highly townread makes it a really good move to nominate yourself along with a couple of other "not so town" slots: If the intent was to remove obvtown, RC would have definitely been nominated. Irre being the only very townread slot of the three at time of nominations is concerning.

[Auro]

Scum Irrelephant nominates himself maybe 75% of the time because he knows getting nominated puts him closer to locktown. Yes, it's WIFOM. It's also how Irrelephant thinks. It's similar to how RC thinks in some respects. That said, Irrel wouldn't nominate himself with two obvious townies (e.g. Auro/RC/Irrelephant leads to Irrelephant's death). He nominates with threats who look scummier than him. Volx is a strong choice because he's been so absent from the game that he's easily mislynchable, plus there's always a risk of Volx becoming a threat later in the game. I'm a strong choice because I'm unfairly tunneled by a few players, RC randomly imploded by calling me scum, so if there's ever a chance to get me mislynched, this is it. I'm also by far Irrelephant's strongest threat so scum Irrelephant definitely knows I need to be mislynched if he's going to win this game.

Reading Shoshin's case now and this is *exactly* what I was thinking, and echoed in the previous post.

[Auro]

That said, there's a strong likelihood that scum didn't nominate any scum. I'm trying to find scum among townies so obviously the "case" on either Irrel/Volx will look weaker than normal. You need to be thinking about who the scum would be among this group if there's scum. I know it's not me. I know that Irrel's reads feel fake (especially that read on Fusco). I know that scum Irrelephant wants to keep people who will defend him alive (i.e .you), so that would explain why you weren't nominated. These things point to scum Irrel relative to Volx. I also think scum Volx nominates you because he knows you're a threat to him, in the same way that I'm a threat to Irrel.

If the choice comes to {Irre, Volxen} now I'd vote Irre. Volxen's posts in the last few pages almost nearly always come from town!him; scum!Volxen never self-nominates himself, while I can see Irre easily doing that.

Shoshin, can you link to some good scumgames of Irre's, which you think has similar patterns of behaviour to this game?

[Auro]

What are your thoughts on Clemency? He attacked and tried to discredit RadiantCowbells a lot on day one as well.

We both know town!Clemency is capable of bad tunnels - remember Lovers and Losers?
What makes it likelier Clem is scum for the RC push?

[Auro]

Actually wait.

Volxen has been expressing a desire to roll scum with me recently; there is a chance he's trying to step up his scumgame and is coasting on my townreading him from wallposts. He's more than capable of walling as scum as evidenced by the Lynchpin game. However, I still maintain he's probtown just from his D2 activity alone.

Some questions I'd like answered by Volxen:
1. Why are you locked in that your nomination implies familiarity with meta? Shoshin agrees that you're a strong nom contender nonetheless as town by virtue of being scummy and by being defended upon the basis of being obvtown later - how does this alone gives you enough confidence to vote Irrelephant without considering the world where Shoshin is scum?
2. Can you back up the assertion that Shoshin was "hard townread"? With RC calling Shoshin scum before replacing out, and multiple other slots pushing Shoshin, how is this true?

And to Shoshin:
1. If you were suspect that Irre was scum, why was your first post D2 asking Volxen if he'd like to take the lynch?
2. Can you point to anything that makes you objectively town? (There's a reason I'm asking this, even if it's a dumb question)

[Auro]

Also @Shoshin: I'm not seeing how you arrive at the conclusion that I'm town from that post of mine; could you elaborate?

[Auro]

Shoshin

--
Probs all-town nom but if I had to vote *right* now I'd vote Shoshin.

[Auro]

In this scenario it would make MUCH more sense to select all three nominees from the foursome of {Auro, Irrelephant, RadiantCowbells/Alonzo, Shoshin} to guarantee that a strongly townread player from day one is lynched. And actually, since you and Irrelephant were the two most overall townread players on day one, the three nominees should have been specifically either {Auro, Irrelephant, RadiantCowbells/Alonzo} or {Auro, Irrelephant, Shoshin}. The latter list in particular makes a lot of sense since RadiantCowbells replaced out, so maybe taking out Alonzo wouldn’t be a priority for the scumteam. Irrelephant being a nominee but you NOT being a nominee is quite concerning.

This is a point I've addressed - Having three widely townread slots as noms, while being a straightforward method of deciding nominations, is arguably sub-optimal.

First, because even though scum gets rid of one townie slot, the other two slots become townier if they pick three widely townread town slots.
Second, the dynamic changes by putting up a scummy slot and introduces WIFOM to the game, fudging up chances of the "scummier" player being the lynch of the day - which did happen today.
Third, induces paranoia on townie slots that *aren't* nominated - which is happening right now.

Such a pattern of noms is actually cleverer.

If I were scum and Shosh/Irre were town, being widely townread makes it a really good risk to take nominating myself - {Auro, RC/Irre, Shoshin} was a nomination I would go for, push Shoshin (who locktowned me BEFORE D1 ended) and reap said towncred. Shoshin's using similar logic as scum-indicative for Irre as well, interestingly.

[Auro]

Yes, I repeatedly said that I "could become obvtown and unlynchable later in the game". So what, what does that matter to people unfamiliar with my meta? The fact that I said that on day one isn't going to mean much to a scumteam that is completely unfamiliar with my meta.

Volx is a strong choice because he's been so absent from the game that he's easily mislynchable, plus

there's always a risk of Volx becoming a threat later in the game

.

Shoshin, who has no meta experience with you (I think?) said this, for starters. Do you disagree that anyone following the game (which scum are likelier to do) would pick up on "Volxen becomes obvtown later on in the game" especially with one of the most townread voices (me) asserting it?

[Auro]

You would simply need to have all three of {Volxen, Shoshin, Irrelephant} as townreads, and then concoct some story on how you "regrettably" have to vote for me because you are less confident on your townread of me then you are on your townreads of Shoshin and Irrelephant. And it's not like pivoting to that position by the end of day 2 would be outside of your scumrange, even though right now you are saying you would vote for Irrelephant over me.

There is no way I imagine I could pull off this version of your hypothetical convincingly as scum.

Firstly, I'd have to progress from my null-scum read on Shoshin, to hard townread.
Secondly, I'd have to maintain my hard townread on Irrelephant (which has eroded to an extent after further thought and Shoshin's case).
Third, I'd have to paint you as "not townie enough" in the face of your obvtown posting - which is a difficult task to do if you *are* town.

*Then* I would have to admit to not being able to recognize town!you which contradicts my earlier stance on your slot, or aggressively push and cause your mislynch which would make me look terribad.

[Auro]

Why are you not voting then?

Waiting for Irre to respond, for starters. Time's not an issue.

[Auro]

Well if I vote there and you sheep she'd be at L-2

I don't see any utility in voting now anyway, though.

[Auro]

Voting someone indicates you think either Scum or the best lynch. Otherwise it's just fence sitting.

I am fence-sitting, though.
We're gated to the three nominations today, and I've stated my current positions on the slots.
I don't see how placing a vote would help?

[Auro]

Fusco: You've only said that Volx is town so far; opinions on Irre/Shoshin?

[Auro]

Shoshin, did you meta-check me?

[Auro]

Yes, but it's self-meta so even though it's objectively correct your source is subjective.

You did the same in Starcraft Mafia 2 though. Or was it TW?

[Auro]

1. Again, scum needn't be closely aware of your meta - you pointed it out, and I defended you specifically over it. Shoshin noted it as well - so you voting Irre off that alone is fallacious.
2. No; town mislynching the "scummiest" is the expected move, and doesn't get the other nommed players towncred for being nommed. Think about it - if the nominations are equally likely to get lynched coming into the day, it's risky - whereas having one scummy slot as a nom provides a "cover". 2 Towny, 1 Scummy nomination causes paranoia about the towny nominations (which I explained) which lasts inspite of the scummier nom being lynched. This is a starkly different context to a normal game; scum using the mechanic to nominate three obvtown town players would lead to a prob loss by virtue of confirming multiple town in the night phases. Proof is served by the stances people are taking today.
3. How does it benefit me the most regardless of outcome? That's quite a meh nomination if I were scum. Shoshin literally townlocked me, and Irrelephant townreads me as well. Shoshin also isn't widely townread (which you agree with me on). You've played with scum!me: Do you think I would want to kill someone who's hard-townreading / lock-townreading me? Also your argument would apply to anyone scum, so I find this disingenuous. Also, if I were scum I'd rather have you around and see if you'd catch me I regretted killing you off early in our Newbie game.

[Auro]

What happened to your read on Scum Reading? I answered but you didn't follow up with me about that still.

[Auro]

How come Shoshin is in your "to focus on" list? I don't see any indication of a read on her in your D2 ISO.

[Auro]

I do feel I am a better scum player than him

I got bored of rolling scum so much, but now I want to roll scum against you sometime. It's on

[Auro]

I think volxen’s insistence and unwillingness to back down from chaining my & Auro’s lynches here (i think we’re both town, and though I haven’t meta’d Auro recently I’ve hydra’d with him and I do feel I am a better scum player than him and wouldn’t be townreading him as strongly as I am now if he were scum; I’ll probably metadive his more recent games to be sure tho because his apparent high win rate is interesting) is not towny. But volxen’s heavy analysis feels like town!him so idk what to do there yet

viewtopic.php?p=10550875&user_select%5B ... #p10550875
Scum!Volxen's capable of faking heavy analysis.
Guess how I caught him in this game - his resistance to re-evaluate his push on me.
Give it a read, and tell me what you think.

[Auro]

I never said I was 100% certain of you being scum and that I won't be re-evaluating you.

It's not about you having said that, it's that you didn't re-evaluate/change your positions. I recall saying you were arguing in bad faith multiple times.

[Auro]

if you look at things objectively you should understand why this nomination list looks like it could have been chosen by someone familiar with my meta, as opposed to this competing theory that I was chosen simply because I said "I can become obvtown and unlynchable later in the game" and the fact that you "endorsed" me saying that.

That's not the only competing theory though.

[Auro]

Wait, if I missed questions I'll read again and answer them in a bit.

Yes, I was just thinking about your skepticism - and wondering how that was consistent with your D1 townread on me I pushed you on.

[Auro]

Auro what are your current Shoshin thoughts

Town.
@Shoshin: What do you make of Irre's willingness to be today's lynch?

I need to catch up on the thread properly, I'll do that in a while.

[Auro]

Okay, off cuff here, at post

Shoshin, Irre, Volx

RC
ScumRead, DT, Auro
Gazoo
Clem, Demon

Interesting that the three people Fuscosco listed as his top-tier townreads on day one are

exactly

the same as the three people on today's nomination list. Thoughts on that Irrelephant (or anyone else)?

This is a good catch.

[Auro]

Volxen, I think Fusco is very likely scum here (not just from the nominations coinciding with his top townreads), but that should make Shoshin townier, right? Why vote her as opposed to Irrelephant?

Got a splint and typing is hard among other things. I'll get into more detail in some time.

[Auro]

Subject: Open 738: Scumchat

propping up tw as town leader who is townreading all three of us seems like a good thing for the moment, so I am

Irre in one of his scumchats^
Interesting, Shoshin was right that Irre forming a consensus townread is null.

[Auro]

That defense isn't sitting all that well with me.

[Auro]

Right now, I'd prefer Irre for the lynch.

I'm interested in Shoshin's towncase. I don't think self-meta is scummy, it's actually pretty useful.

While all three are probs town, it seems like there's no objectively strong reason to TR Irre over the other two; and it is also established that he's a very competent scum player. The admitted self-awareness coupled with it makes a lot of his towny-looking posts null in reality as Shosh points out, and the prior likelihood of scum!Irre nominating himself from being generally townread is also high.

I was worried that Volxen+Fusco was a team taking a risk with Volxen's sudden burst of activity in D2; I was starting to think he was following an agenda with the {Irre/Auro} push - which would massively benefit scum!Volxen, and with Fusco's 1553. However, Volxen did begin to re-evaluate, and his droppping that line while beginning to solve between the rest of the playerlist aggressively removed any paranoia there. The Shoshin vote isn't consistent with his Fusco push though, and I'm waiting for him to answer on that.

I'm interested to know what makes Scum Reading "locktown" as well - the tone in his posts feels fake to me, with repeated use of phrases like "solid case"/"solid defense".

[Auro]

townies don't "wait to towncase" themselves

What's the problem with towncasing oneself? They provide reasons they're town - and leave you to evaluate said reasons. Towncasing yourself is itself NAI, but the case itself could be useful in establishing/cementing a read.

[Auro]

What is this referring to

Fusco's defense on the nominations co-inciding with his top town.
As far as I understood it, it's that he'd lie about his readslist if he were scum, but I don't feel like that's actually rebutting the argument. To be fair, I can't think of any reasonable defense to the allegation anyway. I think the simple explanation (barring this being a co-incidence) given scum!Fusco is that he was being honest in that readslist WRT who he felt was the towniest, and dictated the noms according to the same thought process - perhaps not realizing that he stated townreading all of them.

[Auro]

rc wasn't nominated because she was hella obviously town after that place out. That slot IC now, afaic.

This also pings me to a certain extent.

[Auro]

why does town need time to town case themselves.

i feel like towns just spout whatever they need to spout because from their perspectives, it's natural. scums want "time" to come up with fake reasons on why they are town.

She asked SR to unvote her and he was only 4th vote out of 6. Maybe she can start "towncasing" herself now. If she's busy, still say the gist of what she wants to say. Does she want irrel or volx lynched?

Straight up saying, "Wait! give me time so I can prepare a towncase!" is scummy

I don't think there's any reason to be at L-2 at this stage with 6 days remaining anyway.
Even scum can just say the gist of what they want to say with the vote still present, no?
Asking for time is not AI.

[Auro]

rc wasn't nominated because she was hella obviously town after that place out. That slot IC now, afaic.

This also pings me to a certain extent.

how

Like Fuscosco is aware of the thought process that went on in picking the nominations. It's a weak feeling, but it's there.

[Auro]

a lot of people called rc locktown. thoughts on that? why specifically fusco?

Yeah I stated I think RC is town much earlier, and I think the reasons should be obvious - no way he fakes all those posts leading up to his replace out knowing GrandWazoo's alignment as scum. AtE and replacing out in themselves may not be AI, but the context here makes it AI.

What do you mean, why specifically Fusco? Are there any other slots you want me to give a read on?

[Auro]

Volxen is the strongest townie, I don’t know him like you, but he’s the only one who presented a really good case and doesn’t say “explanations are scummy” . Are you gonna give me explanations as to why you’re town now?

When they say "strongest townie", they mean scumhunting, and it's verifiable that Shoshin has a very high accuracy at scumhunting.
While Volxen is great as town, Shoshin is objectively the stronger town in that sense.

[Auro]

Asking for time is shit and her constantly gloating that she is a good townie while not being a good townie and playing absolutely shit is AI

Good townie accuracy-wise.
May not hold to your standards of what constitutes a "good townie".
Asking for time is NAI - scum also has the same time to just say what they want to say, as I said.

If you want to push her, make a convincing case on why her behaviour is AI, rather than simply shade her.

[Auro]

She’s not scum hunting at all, she’s just relying on RC’s reads and go from there, so I don’t see that scum hunting case you brought up, Auro

Untrue - she attempted to get RC to vote Fusco instead of GrandWazoo.
She's taken stances on the various slots, she arrived at a lynchpool of 4: that IS scumhunting, what do you expect?

[Auro]

A lot of people locktowned RC for the sub out. Fuscos I think was just saying the same thing pretty much. Don't see what you mean by it's scummy

It's not for saying RC was locktown, it's for saying "rc wasn't nominated because ... obviously".

[Auro]

Volxen, can you answer my earlier question? Also why the self-vote?

Shoshin, your self-case is sound; however:
1. You assert that your reason for townreading Irre (based upon allowing paranoia on you to fester) is a reason you've used multiple times in the past accurately - does this not imply a good chance of Irre being aware about it? Also if your reads have been on the wrong side, this provides scum!Irre incentive to keep you in the game, no?
2. You mention this: "I spent the early parts of this game trying to sort the strongest scum players: Irrel, Auro, & RC". However, Volxen only brought up that my scum game is strong midway through the game; and you said you didn't meta-check me, and this is basically the first game we played. Did you know I was a strong scum player at the beginning? How?

Additionally, if DT's town, there's reason to believe his push is clouded by personal reservations, as you pointed out. Would you agree that it benefits town if you do adapt and answer his questions, as a good-faith gesture? If you agree, then why not do that?

[Auro]

Temporary VLA for a day.

[Auro]

I'm here, catching up shortly. Sowie

[Auro]

Auro, who do you prefer lynching between Irrel/Volx?

I don't think we should overthink this - Irre is the obvious option for today's kill, as I maintain. Volxen's posting has been very probtown for him and I doubt Volxen gambits this way with that pick of nominations. Shoshin's self-meta post was sound, and the nominations were far from safe for her, too - considering the number of people wanting to lynch her EoD plus RC calling her scum before replacing out. Going by scum capability alone, Irre is the slot I'd be most paranoid about in a hypothetical LyLo between the three of them; and the prior of Irre nominating himself is also relatively high - these two reasons should be enough to lynch him now.

Anyone wanting to sell me on Shoshin should show me how her self-meta is invalid.

VOTE: Irrelephant

[Auro]

I noticed. I'm looking forward to their case on you.

[Auro]

Are you saying he may?

Yes, I think he's the likeliest from priors.
What's your case on Shoshin? Explain the "interactions" and "associations"?

[Auro]

Vedith, recap on the Volxen scum case?

[Auro]

Fuscosco, I'm asking why you think Shoshin is scum.
Your argument is that she's the best "information lynch", if I read right.
I want to know the "associations and interactions" you're speaking of.

[Auro]

We have 19 hours and need to consolidate on to a lynch.

[Auro]

Oh it's plurality vote, I think.
That gives scum more control over the lynch.
Right now Shoshin would be lynched considering plurality, right?

[Auro]

I dont see volx as scum. I continue to see misguided newish town here.

Volxen isn't new, but I know the player very well and he's very likely town.
But you're voting Shoshin, and I want to talk about that.

[Auro]

Cool. I'd still love a case and rebuttal to Shoshin's self-case from anyone who wants her lynched.

[Auro]

Here I am.

[Auro]

we can make a case for auro/shos

Was this intended for the scum PT?

Fun stuff.

[Auro]

VOTE: Fuscosco

[Auro]

VOTE: Chennisden

Anyone opposed to this?

[Auro]

@Shoshin: Both are equivalent to my eyes, but more slightly confident on Clem-slot.

[Auro]

Also want to see who's opposed to it.

[Auro]

UNVOTE:

Don't want to rush this lynch, wait to hear from everyone.

[Auro]

Continued scumread from his old slot; and there's certain content in Vedith and Chennisden's ISOs; but I'll wait for everyone to post first.

[Auro]

Are you more confident on Vedith, Shoshin?

[Auro]

These nominations look like something Vedith would come up with.

Why can't scum!Chennisden come up with this?

I felt the noms were meant to achieve a paranoia mislynch on you especially with Fusco's flip; my expectation was that scum would push towards this agenda on entering the new day. Chennisden wanted you out strongly even in D2, so I can imagine him nominating you once more - a risk to gain towncred while attempting to lynch you.

Vedith's ready to lynch Chen right now, on the other hand.

[Auro]

Hence was curious to see where people would be pushing today, so I wanted to wait it out a bit.

[Auro]

I think once RC had settled into 'wanting GW' it was you that made the posts to effect the masses into joining.

Would this have been necessary for Shoshin to do?
Can you pull up specific posts you think do this? I recall she was trying to get Fusco lynched.

[Auro]

Do you think Vedith is town, Auro?

Nope.