Open 753: Nomination Mafia [Game Over!]

[DoubtingThomas]

VOTE: fuscos

[DoubtingThomas]

hmm

[DoubtingThomas]

VOTE: fuscos

You agree with my reasoning on Fusco? Are you now townreading me & RC?

unimpressed with fusco. no

[DoubtingThomas]

but we need more than me/rc/shoshin/irrel/auro to play this game for it to go anywhere, tbh

[DoubtingThomas]

it's nightless so there are few reasons to wait on lynch d1 tbh

[DoubtingThomas]

Why aren't you townreading me, DT?

...that should be clear

[DoubtingThomas]

shoshin, do you town read me?

[DoubtingThomas]

what abotu volxen

[DoubtingThomas]

I'm going to replace out if the alternative is spending another day dealing with DT, fuscoscos, grandwazoo, etc's crap without at least having a scum flip to bolster my morale.

what are you fucking crying about

[DoubtingThomas]

I'm asking because it's not, DT.

fmpov, our interactions have been atrocious. you have been actively scum reading me for 'creating negative environment' or something and i think that is a straight up lie. i think you are pushing a scum narrative in that sense and have treated me unfairly, with bad faith, so i scum read you.

also you thinking there is even a remote possibility that rc and i are w/w... irrel and rc both hype your game up, but i don't really see what's impressive about your play based on this game, which could be another reason why you are just scum.

not to mention the fact that i feel like you've ptretty much ignored me more or less throughout the game until today

the scum read on you is not as strong anymore, i'll admit, because your posts are getting better and putting in a lot more effort relative to some of the others, but i'll still really enjoy your lynch today.

[DoubtingThomas]

rc, it's really low you are constantly talking abotu replacing out this replacing out that. regardless of alignment

[DoubtingThomas]

???

[DoubtingThomas]

lol you are constantly attacking me for OOG reasons and your own personal annoyance to the game

don't blame me. i am here trying to solve the game

[DoubtingThomas]

fmpov, our interactions have been atrocious. you have been actively scum reading me for 'creating negative environment' or something and i think that is a straight up lie. i think you are pushing a scum narrative in that sense and have treated me unfairly, with bad faith, so i scum read you.

I'm not lying about your play. You insulted both RC & Irrelephant before I ever said anything about your reading comprehension. You aggressively bait conversations that aren't going anywhere productive (and I'm saying this from my point of view, not yours). You pretend to be dumber than you are. Regardless of your alignment, I strongly dislike your play. Why are you assuming I dislike your play in bad faith? Do you actually think your play is likable to all townies?

also you thinking there is even a remote possibility that rc and i are w/w... irrel and rc both hype your game up, but i don't really see what's impressive about your play based on this game, which could be another reason why you are just scum.

RC is town but speculating about the possibility that you're both scum isn't scummy, it's just due diligence in considering all possibilities. I don't know your alignment because I struggle to read players who I dislike. I want you to flip scum but I don't know if you're actually scum. I've been trying to figure this out for a while.

I think people have an unrealistic expectation when they hear someone is "impressive." Most "impressive" players are "impressive" when you take a step back from the game, not when you're actually playing it. I usually get called "unimpressive," "bad," "atrocious" in my games until endgame. I don't think it's fair for you to evaluate my play until the game is over, regardless of your alignment.

not to mention the fact that i feel like you've ptretty much ignored me more or less throughout the game until today

I haven't ignored you. Nor do I see what that has to do with my alignment. If you think "ignoring" is scummy, why aren't you scumreading Wazoo for ignoring my questions?

the scum read on you is not as strong anymore, i'll admit, because your posts are getting better and putting in a lot more effort relative to some of the others, but i'll still really enjoy your lynch today.

I think I've addressed all your concerns so I'd expect that you would townread me after this, especially since you're voting with me.

not everyone is immature to push people just because they don't like someone's play

why do you care if i town read you or not if you are just going to continue to scum read me anyways?

just because you 'addressed' my concerns doesn't warrant a town read.. lol

[DoubtingThomas]

do u read what u are saying

[DoubtingThomas]

you keep testing the world where someone is X alignment because they read you Y way

sigh

[DoubtingThomas]

the game is stale.

[DoubtingThomas]

when are scum reading/wazoo/clemency/volxen/demonlord/fusco coming to give input lol

[DoubtingThomas]

suck on deez nutz

[DoubtingThomas]

VOTE: radiantcowbells

[DoubtingThomas]

i am trying out the only other CW dude. i dont want a stale ass wagon forever

[DoubtingThomas]

literally nothing matters right now until volxen,demonlord,clemency,wazoo,scumreading starts posting

[DoubtingThomas]

i dont understand your town motive in having a sole wazoo wagon for hours and hours

[DoubtingThomas]

why the fuck does everyone on mafiascum thinks they are fucking late game vladimir or something

'i am playing like ass early game, but i do much better mid-late game so you are scum for scum reading me early game!!!'

fuck off kids this is not fucking league of legends.

play to your heart's extent and stop blaming others for playing shit or expect others to do certain things when it's not warranted because you are playing like shit

[DoubtingThomas]

what do you do when you are scum

[DoubtingThomas]

ba dum tss

[DoubtingThomas]

sup this weekend is kinda hell for me.

i am kinda glad i am not on the nominations. hoping for this day phase to last as long as it reasonably can so i can slow down with the game and focus on irl stuff

[DoubtingThomas]

irrel was my strongest townie out of the 3. volxen's long posts and a really good effort to solve the game so far looks good on him, the only problem is his absence in d1. Him upping his game is good, but maybe he prepared this to thunderdome his way against (potentially two townies)

as for RC, his replace out to me makes it kinda hard for me to think that comes from a scum slot in that situation. i am not sure if a prideful scum player like RC would be replacing out like that in this situation as he just did hmm. Perhaps not "locktown" but not up for a lynch for a long time

@clemency, RC has done this as scum before, tho? Do you remember which game?

[DoubtingThomas]

VOTE: shoshin

[DoubtingThomas]

volxen, i like your input so far. I think most of them makes sense. However, one thing I disagree with is that you think RC (who I now think is most likely town) being town implies that either me or clemency is scum.

RC's "play" makes sense as town, in hindsight, however, the way he treated your slot to attack me/clemency did not seem like a move based on good faith. RC was my strong scum at the time, hence my vote, and he's a strong scum players, so he needed all the pressure I could possibly give on him.

We can talk about how either my or clemency's push on RC was scummy, but you shouldn't tunnel and base your entire scum case on us based on RC's 'likely flip of town'

[DoubtingThomas]

I don't have much respect for RC's town game, so no I don't think I would be pushing RC like that as scum wanting to 'antagonize' a strong town player, because I don't really believe RC is that strong of a town player.

I am not strongly town reading clemency, but i have been lightly town reading him, I also don't think him pushing RC makes him scum, as I am a town who has done the same thing. Furthermore, him fighting your "RC is locktown" statement, imo, felt like a townie dedicated to his previous stance on RC

[DoubtingThomas]

yeah, I don't think I would be voting volxen today.

Volxen, did you say why you were not posting much d1?

[DoubtingThomas]

I don't have much respect for RC's town game, so no I don't think I would be pushing RC like that as scum wanting to 'antagonize' a strong town player, because I don't really believe RC is that strong of a town player.

I am not strongly town reading clemency, but i have been lightly town reading him, I also don't think him pushing RC makes him scum, as I am a town who has done the same thing. Furthermore, him fighting your "RC is locktown" statement, imo, felt like a townie dedicated to his previous stance on RC

But wouldn't it be "townier" for Clemency to

re-evaluate

his read on Alonzo/RadiantCowbells in light of the way in which he replaced out, rather than continue to maintain his scumread of that slot from day one? Objectively, Alonzo should be treated as locktown because that slot being scum simply doesn't make sense anymore. You seem to have *somewhat* re-evaluated your read of this slot, but as soon as I came out and called Alonzo/RadiantCowbells locktown Clemency attacked me for it and tried to discredit me:

alonzo's not locktown are you daft

i've

been

in games where rc replaces out as scum like this

as scum with him, that is

It's one of the TWTBAW reads. Hardly scums will have enough balls to double down on stuff like that. That's a part of my reason for townreading him.

Have seen too many towns play "illogically"

[DoubtingThomas]

what does doughboy mean

[DoubtingThomas]

Irrelephant had a lot of posts that I felt like he was trying to relax the thread from going into turmoil when me/RC/shoshin were fighting. When he could have exploited the chaos, he focused a lot on trying to form town blocs which is townie. and her constant questioning all seemed townie and i can see where her reads come from. if you want, i can probably quote specific posts, i am just trying to do actual work atm

Irrel's post about himself realizing 'he's not good at reading and often sheeps people like shoshin' felt pretty genuine, and it looked like he was trying to really determine shoshin's alignment to see if they can sheep them or not. i pointed it out, and they didnt' feel "embarassed" by the approach which i also gave town credit for

auro's reaction to my scum case on you felt townie at the time, which was funny because it was relative to RC who also had a similar reaction to it. I thought RC was highly likely scum at the time and didn't think auro, if he is team with RC, would buddy up that obviously in the thread. i also don't see too much scum agenda installed in his posting. he is not trying to 'mislynch' anyone in bad faith as far as i can tell.

i prob should revisit both, especially auro, whom I haven't paid too much attention bc of RC/shoshin/etc, but yeah.

[DoubtingThomas]

I don't have much respect for RC's town game, so no I don't think I would be pushing RC like that as scum wanting to 'antagonize' a strong town player, because I don't really believe RC is that strong of a town player.

I am not strongly town reading clemency, but i have been lightly town reading him, I also don't think him pushing RC makes him scum, as I am a town who has done the same thing. Furthermore, him fighting your "RC is locktown" statement, imo, felt like a townie dedicated to his previous stance on RC

But wouldn't it be "townier" for Clemency to

re-evaluate

his read on Alonzo/RadiantCowbells in light of the way in which he replaced out, rather than continue to maintain his scumread of that slot from day one? Objectively, Alonzo should be treated as locktown because that slot being scum simply doesn't make sense anymore. You seem to have *somewhat* re-evaluated your read of this slot, but as soon as I came out and called Alonzo/RadiantCowbells locktown Clemency attacked me for it and tried to discredit me:

alonzo's not locktown are you daft

i've

been

in games where rc replaces out as scum like this

as scum with him, that is

It's one of the TWTBAW reads. Hardly scums will have enough balls to double down on stuff like that. That's a part of my reason for townreading him.

Have seen too many towns play "illogically"

I don't really put a lot of stock into "too wolfy to be a wolf", because that just allows people to get away with open wolfing by incorporating it into their meta. It is wolfy for Clemency to attack me and try to discredit me for saying that Alonzo/RadiantCowbells is locktown, and that kind of play doesn't at all go against his scum meta.

Yeah, I am cautious about clearing people based strictly on twtbaw reads. However, with the right reading of the timing/tone of the post/situation of the thread, i've had great successes. do you think he has been wolfy in his pushes of RC yesterday or outside of discrediting you? because you are not the only person that's saying RC is likely to be town, and to be going against a general town consensus is a different thing than just discrediting you

[DoubtingThomas]

dtf

[DoubtingThomas]

I do agree with fusco that we should be careful of trying to base a whole scum read around who is nominated when we don't even know how many scums are in the 3 nominations. It's good to assume, but assumptions are just assumptions

[DoubtingThomas]

i am here briefly before i have to go for a meeting if people wanna interact with me. currently, not in a good mood for reasons i cannot talk about, but yeah

[DoubtingThomas]

Volxen have you shared a readslist this game day

The only read that I feel completely confident in at the moment is that Alonzo is 100% locktown. I think that Shoshin is probably town because it would be risky for scum!Shoshin to nominate herself, based on the tiered reads from day one that I posted earlier. The idea being that if Irrelephant is never going to be lynched today based on being a day one consensus townread, then the only way that scum!Shoshin survives is if she can get me mislynched. In other words, I don't think scum!Shoshin would insert herself into a nomination list that includes one person more widely townread than herself (Irrelephant) and one person who wasn't townread on day one (Volxen), because it's a risky play to do so.

I also find Clemency scummy for the way he attacked RC all of day one, and then attacked me when I said that Alonzo is locktown.

volxen is generating a lot of content and making reads that makes sense.

also, him constantly trying to solve the alignments and scum motive of the three nominations, while i think is all wifom and probably not lead to solving the game, i think is pretty townie both in the sense of motive, effort, and logic

[DoubtingThomas]

SR is locktown?

did the meaning of lock town change or something?

[DoubtingThomas]

irrel, can you share your reads list on everyone

[DoubtingThomas]

how likely town do you think volxen is?

[DoubtingThomas]

Y would scum do that

[DoubtingThomas]

Nah u r scum

[DoubtingThomas]

Vedith how likely are irrel volx shoshin a team just from reads and associstive posts

[DoubtingThomas]

you are shit townie mate

[DoubtingThomas]

oh the you is to shoshin, not you. you are a good player

[DoubtingThomas]

townies don't "wait to towncase" themselves

[DoubtingThomas]

Scum reading maybe scum after that post.

can u expalin

[DoubtingThomas]

shoshin gave a really poor, unexplained "locktown" read on SR. SR's vote just now has a really good chance of being a bus, tbh

[DoubtingThomas]

VOTE: volxen

why?

[DoubtingThomas]

townies don't "wait to towncase" themselves

What's the problem with towncasing oneself? They provide reasons they're town - and leave you to evaluate said reasons. Towncasing yourself is itself NAI, but the case itself could be useful in establishing/cementing a read.

why does town need time to town case themselves.

i feel like towns just spout whatever they need to spout because from their perspectives, it's natural. scums want "time" to come up with fake reasons on why they are town.

She asked SR to unvote her and he was only 4th vote out of 6. Maybe she can start "towncasing" herself now. If she's busy, still say the gist of what she wants to say. Does she want irrel or volx lynched?

Straight up saying, "Wait! give me time so I can prepare a towncase!" is scummy

[DoubtingThomas]

rc wasn't nominated because she was hella obviously town after that place out. That slot IC now, afaic.

This also pings me to a certain extent.

how

[DoubtingThomas]

Asking for time is shit and her constantly gloating that she is a good townie while not being a good townie and playing absolutely shit is AI

[DoubtingThomas]

rc wasn't nominated because she was hella obviously town after that place out. That slot IC now, afaic.

This also pings me to a certain extent.

how

Like Fuscosco is aware of the thought process that went on in picking the nominations. It's a weak feeling, but it's there.

a lot of people called rc locktown. thoughts on that? why specifically fusco?

[DoubtingThomas]

rc wasn't nominated because she was hella obviously town after that place out. That slot IC now, afaic.

This also pings me to a certain extent.

how

Like Fuscosco is aware of the thought process that went on in picking the nominations. It's a weak feeling, but it's there.

I can see that

Asking for time is shit and her constantly gloating that she is a good townie while not being a good townie and playing absolutely shit is AI

Assume for a second her PoE is absolutely correct and you’re the townie inside it. Do you still dislike her play?

She's not convincing me and she hasn't been answering my questions throughout the game. What reason is there to like about her play? Even if someone has an accurate read, if they are playing uncooperatively, there is nothing to like about that play. I think mafia is not just a game of finding scums, but also communicating and convincing others. You can never win a game of mafia alone. I don't like this question from you. It doesn't make sense and I don't think it's really intuitive. Don't understand why a townie would ask this

[DoubtingThomas]

a lot of people called rc locktown. thoughts on that? why specifically fusco?

Yeah I stated I think RC is town much earlier, and I think the reasons should be obvious - no way he fakes all those posts leading up to his replace out knowing GrandWazoo's alignment as scum. AtE and replacing out in themselves may not be AI, but the context here makes it AI.

What do you mean, why specifically Fusco? Are there any other slots you want me to give a read on?

A lot of people locktowned RC for the sub out. Fuscos I think was just saying the same thing pretty much. Don't see what you mean by it's scummy

[DoubtingThomas]

Basically: If she’s objectively a strong scumhunter, and she has about the same amount of scum equity as, say, me, why vote her? That’s why I’m asking; you’re not acknowledging her strength at scumhunting

But now I just kinda think you’re scum, there was no reason to respond that aggressively, trying to discredit me in my defense of Shoshin
Like if you don’t see why a townie would ask the question I asked, vote me

she has a lot more scum equity than you do. i don't think she's good at scumhunting, but even given that she is correct in her poe, she's doing a shitty job and doing absolutely nothing to convince me of it so why should i like her play?

the question is shit

[DoubtingThomas]

But like I’m not even asking you about this game in the particular way you are viewing it. I’m asking you to assume for a second that she has successfully narrowed scum down to 3/4 players. In that scenario, would you rather have her lynched or myself, who has spent most of my time sheeping her without even knowing her alignment?

The question isn’t shit if I have a reason to ask, thanks

You asked her if I still disliked her player. I said yes.

If I know for sure she is town and all you are doing is sheeping her, sure we should lynch you over shoshin mechanically.

The reality is she is probably scum here and I need to get her lynched.

The question is shit because it's giving a hypothetical situation that doesn't really apply to the reality.

[DoubtingThomas]

Of course I would play differently if I have a mechanical information that changes the situation. There's no point in asking such questions, because the reality isn't that.

You are asking a question like, "Will you kill a dog?" My answer would be no. Then you change up the scenario to be like, "A dog has gone mad and is about to kill your daughter. Will you kill that dog?"

The answer changes. Why did you ask this question

[DoubtingThomas]

If DT's town, he's letting a personal grudge get in the way of this game.

Don't talk about oog information

[DoubtingThomas]

I am still waiting for your towncase, btw

[DoubtingThomas]

Man if not explaning her own thought process was the only thing she did, maybe I wouldn't be tunneling her. But she doesn't even answer questions directed towards her because "it's her town meta"

[DoubtingThomas]

SR's locktown.

The scum are within DT, Clem, Vedith, and Fusco.

Still waiting how SR is locktown or if the definition of locktown changed

[DoubtingThomas]

why is volxen self voting

[DoubtingThomas]

can u do a rainbow read for me vedith

[DoubtingThomas]

irrel, i answered why i thought you were town like 4 times

[DoubtingThomas]

honestly you constantly asking why people town read me doesn't feel good to me

[DoubtingThomas]

Probably trying for AtE. Which is NAI.

AtE when he was getting a lot of town reads and really upped his game from d1? i dont get it

[DoubtingThomas]

If there is it's Volxen.
But maybe not.

if u can explain why volxen is more likely scum than shoshin, that'll be swell

[DoubtingThomas]

Spoiler:

A town case:

1. Meta

As a matter of comparison, here's my my most recent scum game (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77970). It doesn't take a lot to see the differences there.

My priority as scum was to manipulate the most influential townies in the game (e.g. Irrel, the worst, Nauci, etc.) into townreading me. I did this by actively townreading them as quickly as possible, questioning them for not townreading me, and exclusively attacking players who questioned my towniness. I normalized my towniness as quickly as possible so that I eventually became the most townread player in the game. I was unlynchable at all points of that game.

In short, I behaved in ways that I predicted would get me townread. I never alienated anyone. I didn't take risks. I didn't use WIFOM. I played a simple game of manipulation.

In this game, I didn't try manipulating the most influential players into townreading me. On the contrary, I spent the early parts of this game trying to sort the strongest scum players: Irrel, Auro, & RC. Rather than manipulate these players into townreading me, I relentlessly tested their reactions while trying to sort. I knew this wouldn't help me get townread but I thought sorting these players ASAP was more important than having them townread me, at least in the short term.

a. Irrel

I voted Irrel for reasons that I knew would alienate a number of players, especially the bit about how he prefers scum. I was testing reactions so that I could sort Irrel as well as others around him.

Irrel knows that I know he prefers scum, so I knew Irrel would understand why I was voting him, at least to some extent. I predicted that town Irrel wouldn't let paranoia fester about me -- he's clear up my vote for those who didn't understand -- whereas scum Irrel would let the paranoia fester to potentially set up my mislynch.

This is how I sort Irrel in most of my games (e.g. is he allowing paranoia to fester when he could easily clear it up based on his meta knowledge?). And I can point to previous town games where I've townread Irrel based on the way he prevents paranoia from festering, so if you need further meta evidence that this is how I approach sorting Irrelephant (with 100% accuracy so far over multiple games), that can be provided as well.

As scum, I never approach the game by testing reactions because it's too risky. There's no reason for me to unnecessarily attract suspicion of others (including Irrel), or to create a situation where paranoia about me could arise in the first place, when I easily could have easily manipulated Irrel into townreading without attracting any suspicion or doing any actual scumhunting.

If I were scum, it would have been very easy for me to say nothing about Irrel's alignment, or to townread him. The fact I didn't do those things is strongly town indicative for me.

b. Auro

I slightly ignored Auro's questioning at the start of this game to test his reactions. He doesn't know me so I expected to receive flak from him. I also knew his questions would eventually be cleared up without any problem, and I believed town Auro would quickly reevaluate my alignment if he were to scumread me at first.

As a result of my test, Auro engaged a strong line of questioning on me that was one of the towniest things in the game. His push was especially towny because he felt so unconcerned about addressing my concerns about him & almost exclusively focused on trying to understand my thought process. His lack of self-concern in that push is part of why I'm locktown on Auro.

I don't engage this sort of subtle testing as scum because it unnecessarily attracts suspicion without any upside. Auro didn't leave that conversation townreading. On the contrary, he left it with lots of paranoia about my slot, paranoia that I let sit for the moment because again I wasn't worried about my appearance. The upside of my initial play around Auro is that I was able to townread one of the strongest scum players in the game.

This is something I exclusively do as town, not as scum. I never alienate a player like Auro as scum, especially when I predict that Auro would push me in precisely the way he did. My goal as scum isn't to be pushed because, again, I don't take risks as scum. I do things that have predictable responses (from my perspective), and those predicted responses are myself being townread.

c. RC

This is the biggest one. I never vote or push RC in any manner on D1 if I'm scum, straight-up never. I keep calling him town until LYLO. This is the biggest town tell for me, although you probably won't understand it if you don't know our history.

If I were scum, I relentlessly defend RC throughout the game because doing so causes RC to keep me alive. RC struggles with surviving, so if there's someone keeping him alive, he'll keep that person alive even if the player might be scum. And, in my case, it's especially the case because RC really really doesn't want to mislynch me. He'd feel too bad about it. As long as I defend RC, RC never pushes my lynch unless he's absolutely certain I'm scum, meaning he keeps me alive until LYLO.

As far as I'm concerned, my win condition as scum against RC is bringing him to LYLO and then mislynching him with the argument that he's godtier scum who got inside my head. I don't see myself losing in this circumstance with this player list, especially given Irrel's paranoia of scum RC. Plus, I think Irrel would prefer losing to scum me over scum RC. This would be much easier than trying to fake genuine attempts to actually sort RC, which as you've seen in this game, don't necessarily cause RC to townread me.

--

There's another massive difference between my play here and my play as scum: the way I interacted with Wazoo.

As scum, I don't keep interacting with a known mislynch, continuously trying to sort them. Look at how I interact with the mislynches in Starcraft. I occasionally made cases and then ignored the lynches until they died. I didn't show any genuine interest in their thought process, nor did I give them any chances to prove to me they were town.

But in this game, I kept trying to give Wazoo a chance. I read through his games (something I'm very unlikely to do as scum), kept trying to understand his reasoning, rereading this game to see if what he was saying made any sense. I never do this unnecessary stuff as scum, especially since I'd be worried that the more I interacted with Wazoo, the more I'd betray my informed perspective about his alignment.

3. Nominations

If I were scum in this game, I never nominate myself.

For starters, RC replaced out of the game calling me scum, so if I were actually scum, I would have been scared shitless that the townies would sheep him. I'd especially be worried about it because of how much flak I received on D1 from multiple players:

DT votes me regardless of what happens.

Fusco votes me because I called him scum.

SR votes me because I called explanations scummy and because he's misreading me based on stylistic differences (as well just mistaking wordiness for content when that's not the case).

Irrel votes me because he sheeps obvtown RC.

Auro votes me because I potentially alienated him yesterday.

Clemency votes me because he's a troll who maybe sheeps RC.

RC's replacement votes me because he's sheeping RC.

You get the point. If I'm scum, why would I take this risk? What's the upside? Do I suddenly become confirmed if I survive the nomination phase? No, there's no upside. I never take this risk as scum.

That said, even if I were to nominate myself as scum, I do so only with players who I reasonably could survive against. In other words, I'm not putting myself against Irrel/Volx. That's like flipping a coin. It's suicide as scum, something I'd never do.

Who do I take with me if I'm scum? I take the townie from the group of DT, Clemency, Fusco, Vedith. I might take SR. I might take one of Irrel/Volx but not both. I create an environment where my chances of survival are better than just flipping a coin.

Again, I don't play a WIFOM game as scum. And my scum meta bears that out. I win games as scum by taking minimal risks while manipulating players into townreading me with strong day play. If I'm scum in this game, I never nominate myself. It's an extraordinary risk with no reward.

I like this post a lot. If she didn't say a dumb shit about me, I'd maybe town read her

[DoubtingThomas]

thanks, i know i am good too

[DoubtingThomas]

jk i was trying to make a funny joke. i am not that cocky

[DoubtingThomas]

AtE when he was getting a lot of town reads and really upped his game from d1? i dont get it

He voted himself to L1. He's not going to AtE when at L1...

He voted himself to L-2 I thought

Regardless it's AtE

i dunno why he started getting votes all of a sudden. i am not sure if he would randomly AtE out of nowhere despite putting in so much townie work (if he's scum).

he also didn't say anything, which is not consistent with his attitude/behavior this day phase

[DoubtingThomas]

I won't lie, I didn't read it.
Self meta has no rellevence to me reading someone. Plus it was big words.

I dislike self meta too. But with context, the post itself is good. The logic and tone in the post all makes sense to the point that I forgot she's talking abotu her self meta at times, if that makes sense

[DoubtingThomas]

Self voting is AtE though.
It started because Volxen tried to shade me. So I voted \o/

Self voters are scumbags

[DoubtingThomas]

I think vedith might be town?
I would find it scummy if he were working hard to convince everyone that one of the three nominees has to be scum (because I disagree)
I also find it sorta ~weird~ that most of the playerlist has stopped acting like any of the three of us might be scum, which imo means we’re either all town (and scum don’t have motivation to try to scumpaint any of us) or scum!shoshin is confident she’s not getting lynched - I think it’s probably the former, though the latter is theoretically possible.

Given I think we’re all town, though, I like that vedith is just sorta trying to sort us three for potential scum, and that that’s why his vote is where it is. I could see how from another point of view it’s odd he’s not voting me given how we’ve collectively talked about my scumgame, but fmpov it’s towny of him to keep sorting and voting who he thinks has scum equity

why only scum!shoshin?

[DoubtingThomas]

if all 3 of you are town, who's the best to keep around, iyo, irrelephant

[DoubtingThomas]

boy does vedith give me challenge every game. a joy to play with, not the best to win with

[DoubtingThomas]

shoshin has good reads? that's why you are valuing her?

[DoubtingThomas]

As scummy as this may sound, I want to be frank with you, I am not sure if I can work with shoshin. I think she has good scum equity (despite that pretty good post that's starting to make see the possibility of the world where she is town), and her playstyle, imo is just pure antitown, and as shoshin proudly states, I have "personal grudge" on her and feel like she's trying to provoke me further instead of trying to work with me. Unless she starts changing her play style around, there will always be this lingering fear/distaste inside me that would make me scum read her.

Not only that, she herself scum reads me (or at least is trying to actively lynch me). I am, too, a very hard person to mislynch. I am low key worried that shoshin and i are going to just continue to scum read each other and try to lynch each other. That will create further chaos into this already toxic environment. Unless you are thinking you and/or volxen are purely incompetent "town" players, I really think lynching shoshin is all around the better play today.

[DoubtingThomas]

DT pushing my lynch because says he can't work with me is pretty scummy.

As scummy as this may sound,

Ever think about getting original?

[DoubtingThomas]

I can see scum aren't too happy about losing out the chance to mislynch me.

This post is pinging. It is ignoring a lot of things someone with a townie mindset should be considering. Didn't shoshin agree that the general towniness ranked from thread consensus is Irrel>Shoshin>volxen? I thought she agreed that nominations happened like this to try to make volxen a mislynch target? Right now, volxen is like the only wagon that's formed. Shoshin hasn't really been under much scrutiny. How is the way d2 played out close to her being lynched to begin with? Why would she all of a sudden now think that scums set the whole day up trying to get shoshin lynched?

[DoubtingThomas]

If you think I will ever answer your questions, you must be as oblivious as Judas Iscariot

[DoubtingThomas]

Someone I hate once said something that applies to the current situation:

SR

Shoshin

, your perception of my posting is wrong. Why are you downplaying my contributions to the game?

[DoubtingThomas]

Shoshin, the only reason I don't replace out of this game is because I have respect for the integrity of the game of mafia and because I don't want to have my life affected by selfish people.

That doesn't mean I want to interact with you. As you have done all game long, I will ignore all your questions directed towards me. I will comment on your posts if I think it will help me understand the game more and advance game state. You can do the same, but please don't try to talk to me, as if you are interested in actually solving me. It looks hypocritic and it disgusts me. Have fun with the game

[DoubtingThomas]

I townread you both and refuse to lynch one of you to settle this personality difference.
Shoshin, his ISO does have some good reads and thoughts currently, so I disagree that it appears he has none
DT, could you post a full readslist real quick? That would honestly be helpful to me personally

I think both of you are more than capable of getting along and if you aren’t, just spoil all your posts and promise not to read each other’s or something. I doubt either of you are getting lynched soon so breathe in, breathe out, and find scum

Hi Vedith

Townie

Alonzo
Auro

Irrel

Clemency

Volxen

Nullish

Fusco

Vedith

Scummy

Scum Reading

Shoshin
DennisChen

[DoubtingThomas]

can u do a rainbow read for me vedith

So I was thinking and I can't do this yet.

Town
Auro
DT
Shoshin
Irrele

Scum
volxen
Fuscosco
Chen

Scum Scum
Scum reading
Alonzo

The Scum Scum just have 0 impact on my mind in this game.
If it really is an all town lynch pool Scum are staying out of the light.

why do you have me that high

[DoubtingThomas]

and alonzo that low?

[DoubtingThomas]

I can see scum aren't too happy about losing out the chance to mislynch me.

This post is pinging. It is ignoring a lot of things someone with a townie mindset should be considering. Didn't shoshin agree that the general towniness ranked from thread consensus is Irrel>Shoshin>volxen? I thought she agreed that nominations happened like this to try to make volxen a mislynch target? Right now, volxen is like the only wagon that's formed. Shoshin hasn't really been under much scrutiny. How is the way d2 played out close to her being lynched to begin with? Why would she all of a sudden now think that scums set the whole day up trying to get shoshin lynched?

Actually I like this logic a lot the more I think about it.

Why would town!shoshin who admitted that the nominations were made to incriminate volxen, then make a comment about how "scums are trying to lynch me" all of a sudden when she has not been pushed nor have been a real wagon by anyone except me?

[DoubtingThomas]

have u seen me give off scum vibe as scum?

[DoubtingThomas]

hmm i was about to say i never scummed agains you but i did in merchant's dance didn't i

[DoubtingThomas]

can it be this easy shoshin/dennis/scum reading

[DoubtingThomas]

Yes you naughty!

do u have an opinion on your experience with my scum game there? although u got out of the game pretty early so you might not have any

[DoubtingThomas]

so can we lynch shoshin today then

[DoubtingThomas]

you don't think i was defensive this game?

[DoubtingThomas]

so can we lynch shoshin today then

I think Volxen is the better lynch.
You're going to be biased here in the opinion of voting I feel, and I'm going to be biased as I town read Shoshin more than not right now.

can you explain volxen? you don't think his earlier posts were good? although i am not sure why he self voted either. could be convinced here

[DoubtingThomas]

I would not lynch irrelephant just for being a sane voice

[DoubtingThomas]

can it be this easy shoshin/dennis/scum reading

Why not Vedith in the world where shoshin’s scum

he can be. i think his town read on me is kinda weak, think it could be a scum trying to pocket me given our recently abudant number of games played together.

i think dennis is really likely to be scum, regardless of shoshin's alignment, with the way he came into thread, asked weak questions about the game's mechanics and only game solving posts he's made being he doesn't understand my push on shoshin and scum reading me while defending shoshin, despite the fact that he needs to sort between irrel/volxen/shoshin. it's easy posts to make as scum who just joined the game and really not townie for him to be considering the other 2 players who is in the nominations.

scum reading is a weaker scum read given that shoshin town read scum reading out of nowhere for reasons unexplained (no surprise there)

vedith also made a good point about how scum reading feels different in donner party game.

[DoubtingThomas]

I believe scumreading should be the next lynch, and Shoshin should be today's.

I do not want a volxen lynch at any rate.

wat

[DoubtingThomas]

I'm not getting this tunnel on Shoshin, and I don't like how Thomas read the scummy slots as towny.

I am aware my slot is scummy

but u wanna lynch shoshin now?

[DoubtingThomas]

volxen, what did you learn from your self-voting reaction test and what's your read on everyone else

[DoubtingThomas]

Alright; this game seems much different from a normal one.

For one, there's the unusually large amount of "personal" influences on this game. For instance, DT's grudge on Shoshin (which seems one-sided - I'll talk about that later in this post), and RC's replacing out.

Although it is understandably annoying to talk about these personal influences, I think we do need to look at them. For instance, I think you are all forgetting or conveniently ignoring (for scum) the fact that Shoshin egged the Wazoo lynch (and hammered!)

I don't think it's out of the question that DT is using their grudge against Shoshin so they can distance as scum. Ideally I'd vote DT for this, but this does not seem like an option.

Also, notice that Shoshin buddied RC (possibly to use him to guide mislynches). Notice that this buddying stops as soon as RC replaces out - which suggests something about meta.

While I realize this is an unlikely argument, we are presented with three bad choices. This is why I think Shoshin is most likely to be scum (as she may have put in volxen as the intended mislynch, and irrelephant to show that "scum chose town.")

VOTE: Shoshin

This is not a real read

[DoubtingThomas]

Nobody can be that bad as town right

[DoubtingThomas]

Sorry weekends are busy for me

[DoubtingThomas]

Why is irrel voting for himself again

[DoubtingThomas]

Wheres volxen? Vedith can u tell me who out of irrel and ahoshin u want dead? U dont need to vote if u dont wanna hammer yet

[DoubtingThomas]

unbelievable. you guys lynched irrel?

[DoubtingThomas]

VOTE: shoshin

[DoubtingThomas]

@ mod v/la for more or less throughout the week. it's spring break so i will be (at least hope to) on computer less and also interview on friday

[DoubtingThomas]

VOTE: shoshin

[DoubtingThomas]

I have interview tomorrow. Today will be spent preparing and traveling for tomorrows interview tomorrow night, once interview is done i can dive into this game again

Nonetheless shoshin is always the lynch today in all but one in 193948392002 possible situations i saw in the future

[DoubtingThomas]

Nonetheless shoshin is always the lynch today in all but one in 193948392002 possible situations i saw in the future

You're ignoring very strong evidence that scum!Shoshin never nominates herself given

Shoshin's

current state of mind generally; her lack of motivation isn't a lie. She just lost one scumgame, and for the rest part I can't talk about (you should figure out what to do).

Why wouldnt she?

Old friend of mine once said when you ask yourself “why would scum do that?” Then thats the exact reason why they would do it

Its all wifom

[DoubtingThomas]

Why wouldnt she?

Old friend of mine once said when you ask yourself “why would scum do that?” Then thats the exact reason why they would do it

Its all wifom

Yeah but WIFOM's only ever a good tactic for scum to use if they can get away with it.
Also Shoshin's not a WIFOM driven scum player.

I cant buy that she is town just based on the fact that she doesnt nominate herself. Whats townie about her play?

[DoubtingThomas]

I cant play with people whose main strategy is to do x and then say i neevr do x as y alignment

Its just stupid

All words and no actions

[DoubtingThomas]

I never say that as scum btw.

[DoubtingThomas]

I never vote the same person three days in a row as scum btw

[DoubtingThomas]

Shoshin, the only reason I don't replace out of this game is because I have respect for the integrity of the game of mafia and because I don't want to have my life affected by selfish people.

That doesn't mean I want to interact with you. As you have done all game long, I will ignore all your questions directed towards me. I will comment on your posts if I think it will help me understand the game more and advance game state. You can do the same, but please don't try to talk to me, as if you are interested in actually solving me. It looks hypocritic and it disgusts me. Have fun with the game

I never say this as scum btw

[DoubtingThomas]

Look i town cased myself herp derp i am so town i am so helpful

[DoubtingThomas]

SR's locktown.

The scum are within DT, Clem, Vedith, and Fusco.

Still waiting how SR is locktown or if the definition of locktown changed

[DoubtingThomas]

Shoshin, the only reason I don't replace out of this game is because I have respect for the integrity of the game of mafia and because I don't want to have my life affected by selfish people.

That doesn't mean I want to interact with you. As you have done all game long, I will ignore all your questions directed towards me. I will comment on your posts if I think it will help me understand the game more and advance game state. You can do the same, but please don't try to talk to me, as if you are interested in actually solving me. It looks hypocritic and it disgusts me. Have fun with the game

I never say this as scum btw

[DoubtingThomas]

Lynch Vedith.

If he's town, lynch SR tomorrow.

Weren't you locktown on SR? What suddenly changed?

If Vedith flips town, it means I was wrong about something.

Only if I flip town?
Not your entire play so far?

Looks like a slip tbh

[DoubtingThomas]

Vedith, chen flips scum whos the team? Chen flips town where do u go?

[DoubtingThomas]

Looks like shoshins the kill

[DoubtingThomas]

Cuz chens independently scummy tbh

[DoubtingThomas]

Lynch me i dare u

[DoubtingThomas]

Ok no i am never scum team w shoshin lmao

[DoubtingThomas]

Why volxen?

Looks like shoshins the kill

I disagree.
You are using the bases that Shoshin appears in it twice I assume.

Honestly i would be down to lynch dennis today

Only if shoshin stops being absolute cancer cell itt

[DoubtingThomas]

I am not merely insulting her

Shes making the game unplayable from tactical point for me too tbh shes hurting my game play by interrupting the thread with dirt thats what i associate her as scum for a lot of the parts too

[DoubtingThomas]

Letd wait for chenny biy ti comr back

[DoubtingThomas]

I meant to say lets way for chenny to comr back

[DoubtingThomas]

Yeah p#2461 is a townie post altho his scum game is pretty scary that i expeirenced

prob never lynching him today anyhow

That being said i got another interview next tues from a diff company so i am ina. Good mood now!!!

[DoubtingThomas]

Disappointed and not scun rrading him?? Lol

[DoubtingThomas]

Hes not fuckingh around hes telling the truth i sanf to him a very beautiful japanese saying

[DoubtingThomas]

i did okay on my interviews

[DoubtingThomas]

DoubtingThomas is strongly opposed to bussing and would be opposed to a strategy along the lines of "let's nominate two of us and have one bus the other for towncredit". I believe that he would strongly object to a nomination list that is highly likely to lead to a red flip.

Just because one's generally opposed to bussing, it doesn't mean they'd refuse to bus when it makes for optimal play given the gamestate.
As scum I've lynched my teammate before (Newbie 1898).
Besides, in the world where both are scum, do you agree that their best agenda for today would be to push Shoshin?

There's a difference between bussing when it's absolutely necessary vs going out of your way to bus just for the sake of bussing for perceived towncredit. Scum!Chennisden AND scum!Vedith nominating themselves against town!Shoshin is almost always going to lead to a red flip today, unless they could produce enough WIFOM to generate enough paranoia about Shoshin to get her lynched. Some people would employ this kind strategy as scum, but I have no reason to believe that someone who is opposed to bussing on a fundamental level (such as DoubtingThomas) would do so.

You've also shared with me that you are fundamentally opposed to bussing unless absolutely necessary, and Irrelephant is known for that as well. So it's clearly a "thing" for some people to avoid bussing at all costs.

Like Shoshin mentioned earlier, it's important to focus on what's probable vs what's possible, because anything is technically "possible". I think a DoubtingThomas/Vedith/Chennisden scumteam is so unlikely that it's not even worth considering at this point.

how do you know my fundamentals of playing scum?

[DoubtingThomas]

well nothing's happening. i might hammer, tbh

[DoubtingThomas]

intent to hammer in a few hours. i am gonna go study and come back. if you object and are not shoshin and wants to talk to me, @ me in bold so i can get back to you

[DoubtingThomas]

chennis, vote shoshin

[DoubtingThomas]

If he flips town, we're voting DT because other than his 1v1 with rc, everything else was fluff.

my push on shoshin is fluff?

that is the most contentful and passionate push i have ever made in my mafia career bro

[DoubtingThomas]

another interview tomorrow. wanna prepare for that.

that being said one of scum reading - shoshin are conf scum, no?

[DoubtingThomas]

idk why you clowns lynched vedith oltokgoetjgoefjmosdv

[DoubtingThomas]

Actually, it probably should be

Lynch Shoshin
Lynch Scum Reading if an option, otherwise Volxen>Auro>Alonzo
Lynch Scum Reading if alive otherwise Volxen>Auro>Alonzo

[DoubtingThomas]

There's three scum.

I'm town.

I voted SR.

If SR's town, the three scum hammer.

The game hasn't ended yet.

So SR is scum.

If you need further evidence, look at Vedith's meta read on SR & my catch on SR's slip yesterday with respect to Vedith's alignment.

veidth told me to vote you so i should vote there right

[DoubtingThomas]

shoshin are you trolling when you are not realizing the possibility of you being scum with auro and voting town!scum reading?

[DoubtingThomas]

does world of shoshin-auro-chennis work?

[DoubtingThomas]

i am thinking if scum reading had a scum team he would get some votes on shoshin. like if alonzo was on scum reading's team, he would have already voted with scum reading on shoshin

[DoubtingThomas]

i am getting townie skepticism vibe from auro's postings today. i feel like his indifference between scum reading and shoshin comes from a townie mindset

[DoubtingThomas]

in the world where shoshin is scum, auro is her scum partner, or else the game has ended.

out of volxen, dennis, alonzo... hmm i feel like scum!volxen would have already voted scum reading with the progession he's made. so the team is either shoshin-auro/chennis or shoshin-auro/volxen

in the world where scum reading is scum, most likely, there are 2 scums in those who didn't vote. it's possible that one of shoshin/auro could be bussing, shoshin to a lesser extent, but i've seen some fascinating bussing before so i am not going to completely get that possibility out of my head. mylo's and lylo's are where scums try to make big ball plays.

that being said, most likely world for scum!scum reading is two out of chennis/alonzo/volxen. with my town read on volxen, prob something like chennis/alonzo?

Although, alonzo's slot is RC's slot. I am at the point where I hope for the sake of the game that that slot is town. so is it scum reading-chennis/volxen? ugh

[DoubtingThomas]

So you don't think Auro's scum?

sorry, that shouldn't say auro. should say volxen

[DoubtingThomas]

VOTE: DoubtingThomas

VOTE: scum reading

this doesnt seem like a town who is concerned with scums quickhammering, tbh. only 7 minutes, but people posted not too long ago.

[DoubtingThomas]

Vote Count 4.13

Vedith: (5) volxen, Alonzo, Shoshin, Auro, Vedith

HAMMER!

Shoshin:

(2) DoubtingThomas, chennisden

Chennisden:

(1) scum reading

Not Voting:

-----

Majority has been reached.

Vedith has been lynched, they were a

Spoiler:

Vanilla Townie!

Day 5 starts now and ends in (expired on 2019-04-02 15:20:45).

You may lynch among all players on the playerlist.

chennisden/scumreading are unlikely to be team

i think no more than 2 scums in the 4 that voted vedith

[DoubtingThomas]

i think no more than 2 scums in the 4 that voted vedith

And which would those be? auro/shoshin?

imo, that's highly likely. in that case, the vote count suggests the team is indeed auro-shoshin-chennis which is identical to my initial guess.

however, games are usually not that easy.

scums could have tried to all vote vedith, which is less likely to happen. i also think that scums won't pile up 3/4 votes on vedith, as he only got lynched because he self-hammered himself. i feel like scums will be more often than not scared to try to "out" themselves by voting like that. that's why i think there are only 2 scums in that group max

[DoubtingThomas]

And who's the third, if not you? By your PoE, it should be you, because you tr both me and chennisden and you're the only one that's off-wagon besides me and him.

@chennisden What's your opinion on all this?

no i don't tr chennis at all. you are only a town read in a relative sense compared to shoshin for now.

how in hell would it be me in my poe? what kinda thought is this?

[DoubtingThomas]

that's why i think there are only 2 scums in that group max

"That group" is Vedith's wagon. The other 3 people out of the group are me, you and chennis who voted for somebody else.

chennisden/scumreading are unlikely to be team

So that leaves you off the vedith wagon. Realise your mistake in logic? You said 2 scum max on vedith's wagon, and there were 3 people off his wagon. You cleared 2 of those people. You remain as the last one.

how did i clear chennis and you??????????????????????????????

[DoubtingThomas]

chennis/scumreading unlikely to be team means the world of X/chennisden/scumreading is unlikely, meanwhile the world of X/Y/Chennis OR X/Y/scumreading is possible. that does not clear both of you. heck, either of you.

you are only being semi-cleared because of the thunderdome between shoshin, not because i town read you cuz i dont really in terms of your posting style.

chennis, i have been scum reading since his entrance into the game. you havent read my posts?

[DoubtingThomas]

You're lucky shoshin is the one pushing my mislynch, otherwise you'd be dead right now. You'll be a lynch right after. Your scum team will fall like dominos.

two things wrong with this post

1) You can never lynch me
2) I am never scum team with shoshin

[DoubtingThomas]

Yet you didn't push for him.

So, who's your third scum read after all?

i think chennis makes the most sense for now.

[DoubtingThomas]

so if i am scum with shoshin, who's the third person

[DoubtingThomas]

why?

[DoubtingThomas]

so why do you think it's me over the others?

like the one person that's actually thinking you are town over shoshin

[DoubtingThomas]

i played 1 completed game with you

theres still a possibility where you are scum and shoshin is town (even if i dont want to believe it) and with me voting, i could cost us the game so thats why i didnt vote yet.

kinda wanna see chennis/volxen/alonzo come in

[DoubtingThomas]

I don't really have meta on SR. Idk why he said that. I have one finished game with him, so I've seen one game where he was town. Prob won't say I'd use much of that to justfiy a valid read on him

[DoubtingThomas]

Before I talk to you about my concerns, who do you think is the scum team with scum reading and why (if you can case them)?

[DoubtingThomas]

and what do you think about auro's rather hasty vote on scum reading?

[DoubtingThomas]

hello.

[DoubtingThomas]

shoshin, i thought you wanted to talk to me?

[DoubtingThomas]

wait, why did you vote me again?

[DoubtingThomas]

also why did you vote vedith of chen?

[DoubtingThomas]

my scum read on you has been pretty self-explanatory throughout the game.

it's always possible that my reads are quite wrong and perhaps i am tunneling on you PARTLY because of OOG reason.

I really do hate the fact that I've tried to engage you constantly over multiple times and bulk of the responses i've gotten is that you are not going to answer because that's your 'town meta'.

I don't see much towniness in you self casing yourself over and over again. You have been a driving force in lynching all townies so far. You have been getting all the lynches you have wanted throughout the game so far to be all wrong, and then now you vote scum reading first because you were suddenly out of nowhere positive that 1) your reads that have showed 0% accuracy this game is correct 2) on scum reading, who you town read

STRONGLY

.

what's annoying is that i asked you why you 'lock town'ed scum reading yesterday, only to be ignored three times. and you start the day off voting scum reading.

i think that's the worst part about your iso so far

[DoubtingThomas]

Okay, DT. I'll try to address your concerns & explain why I'm town. In the process, I'd like you to respond to my questions as well.

1. You know for a fact that ignoring questions is NAI for me so that's not a valid concern. Why are you allowing this to impact your read when you know it's NAI? Can you point me to an example of a town game where you scum read someone for something you knew to be NAI?

This is not really a question I want to treat. I don't really know you at all. You are constantly telling me this, and I doubt anyone tries to blatantly lie in a game, but I also do not like taking what someone says about theirselves in a game of mafia as the bible. Also, this is not a main reason for why I think you are scum. It is part of the reason why I think you are being uncooperative and provocative on purpose which I associate as a scum activity. I haven't really seen towns blatantly refuse to answer simple questions over and over again, and for their sole reason of doing this to be because "it's their town meta". I've actually seen scums try to be unpleasant on purpose to exploit the natural tendency for people to think, "there's no way they'd do that as scum". This is your 'town meta' so you say, but it doesn't mean you don't do this as scum ever, and I do not know the meta for either of your alignment. The reason why this comes up over and over again is because it's anti town and I NATURALLY associate it as something I want to lynch no matter what. Like I don't even care if it's an IC slot if they constnatly try to be unpleasant.

I personally think any town person should try to talk to me and answer my questions once we have went through a hugh quarrel, you either try to kill me and deathtunnel me, or town read me but refuse to work with me. Your attitude towards me seems a little bit in the middle ground. Sure you have tried to vote me, but you never really tried to extensively start a wagon for me which is concerning. I usually think scum naturally try to 'compromise', sometimes unconsciously. Town!you either believes I am lockscum ->tries to kill me. or believes I am a misguided town -> gets super annoyed at my incompetency and just ignores me for the whole game. Your treatment of me this whole games has been... in an awkward middle ground, imo -- especially this mylo phase. which is REALLY concerning. i don't think you really scum read me. You just want to all of a sudden buddy buddy me to vote scum reading with you to win. that's the vibe i am actually getting atm wrt this day phase.

2. You say I've been town casing myself too much.

On this point, I want to make sure you understand that I've only defended myself in situations where I've been close to getting lynched, specifically during nomination phases when I've been forced to argue that I'm townier than other players who are likely town. I haven't had to defend myself at all during regular day phases & thus haven't. What's scummy about this? I'm unable to address this concern unless you explain why you think it's scummy.

This point doesn't make you scum. I just pointed this out to say that.. I don't quite buy the entire thing and you shouldn't really expect me to buy the whole thing

3. You say I'm scummy because I've been wrong. That's the BoP fallacy. I'd like to address this concern in three ways.

First, I want you to understand that I've mislynched less than it seems in large part because of the nomination phases. I was responsible for mislynching Wazoo & Fusco but I don't think it's fair to say I'm responsible for mislynching Irrelephant or Vedith when options were limited by the scum themselves. After all, both Irrelephant & Vedith voted themselves. I don't think it's fair to say I'm responsible for those mislynches, especially the mislynch on Irrelephant since I called him likely town as he went down.

Second, I'm not the only player who voted these players. The relevant consideration here is whether I'm scummier than SR, because from your perspective at least one of us is scum. SR voted all these players as well. Is it fair to exclusively hold me responsible for these mislynches when SR voted these players as well? I don't think so.

Third, I mislynch much more than people realize. In fact, I can point you to a game where I exclusively led mislynches the whole game until town lost (viewtopic.php?f=53&t=77661). As such, I don't think it's fair to apply BoP to me when I'm not perfect & often lead mislynches as town. Can you please explain why you're holding me to such a high standard when you know I'm prone to mislynching?

This point I have a bigger problem with. First of all, you mention that you've only been responsible for 2 mislynches because in other two scenarios, scums have limited lynch options. Well, in other words, you have 2/2, or 100% mislynch rate when you have 100% of the freedom. As for me, I town read wazoo. It's been a while, but I believe I was having a town lean vibe from fusco -- definitely wouldn't have lynched him over some other people. We've had irrel and vedith kind of sacrifice themselves, at the condition of sheeping them (at least for vedith). Unlike those two towns, you have been more fixated and focused on surviving. You were never willing to 'sacrifice' for town. I mean, you are town, but that doesn't mean your game should be focused on surviving. Sometimes if you are having a subpar game, you dying might actually benefit town. Or if you want to make a statement, you might wanna choose to die. But I just have a feeling where you just cared about surviving, rather than finding scums = which is often >rand scum mindset.

The point I was also trying to make wasn't, "YOU MISTLYNCHED EVERYONE! YOU ARE SCUM!" It was more like, you have been constantly wrong on EVERY lynch you've been a part of, even if you wanna belittle it and say it was only "two mislynches", even myself, who has been having a pretty good read this game isn't confident enough to snap vote. You did. Despite wrongly reading a lot of people this game, including me (because I am town). I kinda don't understand your confidence. You weren't scared of being wrong on SR, which you have been constantly wrong over and over again? I find it hard to believe that a townie in your position to make an initiative, especially a correct one, with that confidence. This is the main thing that makes you look scummy. You have a confidence in your read that doesn't make sense as a townie right now.

4. You say I'm scummy for changing my read on SR.

I don't think that's scummy so please explain why you think reevaluating reads is scummy. I reevaluate the game based on new information, and in particular Vedith's flip changed everything for me. Yesterday, SR betrayed an informed perspective about Vedith's flip that never comes from town & I said as much yesterday when I realized SR might be scum over Vedith. I can point you to the specific posts that betray this perspective & explain exactly why it shows that SR's scum if you need more clarification. Either way, I'd like you to explain why you think changing reads is scummy.

5. You say I'm scummy because you don't understand why I was locktown on SR. To be clear, failing to understand why someone believes something isn't reason to call that person scummy. That said, I'll explain why I called SR locktown.

First, I call players locktown even though what I mean is likely town. The "locktown" language doesn't mean it's a "lock." It's a way of speaking.

Second, I called SR likely town because he offered tons of analysis on D1, he didn't seem phased at all by me or RC calling him scummy, he seemed to be reevaluating reads fluidly in ways that isn't easy for scum to fake, he almost replaced out the game but stayed in & I mistakenly read that as town, and finally because RC called him town & I tend to trust RC's townreads. Was I wrong about SR? Yes. He's scum & I know this now. He's competent scum in that he knows how to fake lots of town-like analysis but at the end of the day he's scum & that became clear with Vedith's flip.

I feel like you are constantly not getting the points I was making in my post, and I don't think they were difficult points to get, so I am starting to be skeptical that you are being thick on purpose (please excuse my language). I am not calling you scummy because you reevaluate reads. I am calling you scummy because the way you handled and reacted to my pressure to figure out and understand your read (calling scum reading locktown but refusing to answer yesterday) was not townie, furthermore, today, you engaged the thread with a vote on scum reading OUT of the blue.

To me, it seemed like you were giving half-assed town read on scum reading but still using strong language like "lock town". When I wanted to confront you about this, you ignored me (like always). Then, once a situation (today) comes up where you can win by just having one more mislynch, you go full ham and thunderdome scum reading.

You said after Vedith's flip, you were suddenly sure of scum reading being scum? I don't get this progression. See, you say "reevaluation" but I just see a jump from locktown to hardcore scum because Vedith flipped. And you are even using his reads to try to push scum reading, which is palpable because vedith wanted you to be lynched, right?

Anyhow, could you explain why and how your read on scumreading changed from town to the point that you wanted to dome him? The turnaround of the situation looks so dramatic that I dont know if towns can make these kind of reevaluations., tbh

6. You say I'm scummy because I was confident in voting SR. As explained above, I was confident in voting SR because of Vedith's flip. Yes, I was wrong on two major lynches in this game but that doesn't mean I don't trust myself to eventually get things right. I have confidence in my reads over the reads of anyone else in this game & sometimes it takes a few mislynches to get on the right track.

Kind of explained in #3. MAYBE it's like a philosophical difference, but you have essentially 0% accuracy right now on your reads. The sort of confidence on SR is something I don't get. I think, mathematically, the vote you've pulled is more likely to come from a scum who just needs to mislynch. Irrel called you a strong town. I tend to associate strong towns with someone who works with town as a whole. Even the best mafia players do not have 100% read. They work with other players and formulate town core. I feel like your pushes throughout the game has constantly been full of scum agenda. Not losing confidence doesn't make you scum, necessarily, but in your position, I just think towns, especially as Irrel vouched, a good town would try to communicate with others and try to solve the game. But what have you done this game? Pretty much drive all the mislynches, attack me and vedith (flipped town), etc.

7. You know for a fact that I was nominated twice in a row. Can you please explain why you think scum me would take that risk even though I almost got lynched the first time?

Just wifom. I would nominate myself two times in a row just to make this point. Hey look I am so townie!

8. What's your read on SR? You've said a lot about me but nothing about SR & I find that concerning. What do you think of the fact that SR refuses to vote for Xtox even though from SR's perspective Xtox is confirmed scum? Doesn't that give you some insight that maybe SR's faking all of this?

You and SR are never w/w. After writing this post, I am starting to (perhaps confbias) believe more and more that the way you are handling this push --once again, like all your other pushes-- doesn't really come from town and that fact alone makes scum reading town

Another question, you called scum reading's d1 game really townie and that he's a comptent scum. The way he's playing right now is nowhere near a competent scum. He's not even realizing that auro+you are always a scum team in his world. Do you really think he's a competent scum?

I really want you to describe the transition of progression from town to scum you've had on scum reading. I don't see it. I think this push on scum reading has come in too much of an opportune moment. A really absurd miracle if it's a town push. that's where I am at right now

[DoubtingThomas]

what's this one versus one about me, volxen

[DoubtingThomas]

What about a team of auro-shoshin?

I am not sure what you mean by shoshin can't put up this kind of "performance" as scum. is she a terrible scum?

[DoubtingThomas]

perhaps i am tunneled. but also it's hard for me to not vote shoshin just because i am told she cant be this "good" as scum

volxen, i am town, so i want to talk to you. do you see a world of shoshin/auro/chennis? or auro/chennis/scumreading then?

what about alonzo?

[DoubtingThomas]

I'd probably call it fair to end today lynching auro for abandoning his post.

At this point, while I would still love to see a town win deep down, Im down to lynch almost anyone.

Like I say, shos deserves this for services to keyboard warrior-ism.

Auro/DT/shosh was always on my mind as scum, but Im not sure I'm brave enough to call that my solve.

I am baffled that you still think I am team with shoshin

[DoubtingThomas]

really? where

[DoubtingThomas]

if i am your partner i vote scumreading and win rn

[DoubtingThomas]

did he actually say that LOL

[DoubtingThomas]

I will post more later on how I think DoubtingThomas is scum regardless of Scumreading's alignment, even if I reduce the number of assumptions that I initially made.

That being said, @Scumreading are you outright refusing to vote for DoubtingThomas today?

Volx, lynching Shoshin is the play here. This IS the safest lynch. Depending on the nominees tomorrow I'll be able to confirm my reads on DT and Auro.

Right now, there's no reason on why I would vote DT. He's done nothing this game phase and it is hard sorting him as it is. I am ten times more confident in a Shoshin lynch and there's no reason to abstain that. This is a SvT and it would make no sense for me to drop this. Shoshin is lockscum and she's the safest lynch, at least for me. I can tell it's hard for people to sort our roles, but the game play until now should give you indications to our alignments. This battle WILL have to take place regardless if we lynch another scum now, but this is, once again, the safest option for me. She's pushing my mislynch today based on Vedith's meta read which was my activity, she doesn't have a case on me, I've made a case on her that she completely disregarded and said I won't comment on it, yet when chennis says "Scum reading, you should make a case on Shoshin", Shoshin said "

If he were to make a case

, I'd point out any rhetorical thoughts", but she didn't. She saw my case . She ignored it and she didn't want to bring the fact that I've made a case on her so that chennis will be inclined to vote me. That's scum af. She's trying to pressure people into voting me, like chennisden, which is the easiest to persuade. She won't try to make you or Alonzo vote me because you guys probably won't and she knows that. She just needs chennis to place his vote and that's gg.

where

[DoubtingThomas]

shoshin, i give you a hint that i am town. what's the solve?

[DoubtingThomas]

the case is pretty bad

[DoubtingThomas]

have you read my rebuttal on your 8 questions?

[DoubtingThomas]

so did you read it and what do you think of it?

[DoubtingThomas]

no, for christ sake i dont fucking KNOW certain things are NAI for you. I dont know who you are.

you TELL me that that's the case. the fact that it's NAI doesn't change the fact that I hate that shit and would policy lynch the fuck out of it for sure. you know i've done that

[DoubtingThomas]

i just dont really use self meta as part of anything. i am sorry but that's MU culture. so you want a town game, go there and check any of my town games i guess

[DoubtingThomas]

you are shading my case again. that is not even remotely a relevant point as to why i think you are a scum.

that shit's NAI. the fact that I am pushing you dones't

1) have to do with that fact (there's much more to it)
2) have to do with the fact that that fact is "NAI"

your playstyle is just something i cant play with

[DoubtingThomas]

if you really have a 0% scum win rate, that's prob because you just provoke the shit out of everyone so that makes them wanna lynch you

how many games do you have as town do you survive until the end? i bet you get lynched a lot as town?

[DoubtingThomas]

sorry i snapped again.

[DoubtingThomas]

stop being shitty and read my shit

[DoubtingThomas]

if sr flips scum, you are not scum

[DoubtingThomas]

shoshin. i think you and i both know you don't get to say that

[DoubtingThomas]

you only accept to interact with me when you want my vote. now idk if that comes from a scum that just wants to win with a mislynch or a town who's just... self-centered or something, but it's anti-town

[DoubtingThomas]

It's not pointless. Because it can give me reassurance that you are town and persuade me to vote scum reading

And even if you were town and scum reading flipped scum, it will help you find me.

This kind of mindset is why you and I clash

[DoubtingThomas]

see and this is why you are scummy. you are not concerned about my alignment. you dont want to solve me. you've been pushing mislynches all day and (as far as i can tell) is wrong about me and refuse to interact with me

[DoubtingThomas]

We clash because you obsess too much over the "proper" way to play instead of finding scum.

It's not the proper way.

It's really just an etiquette. Someone asks you question, you answer. If you don't answer and you ask them a question, they don't wanna answer.

You literally use THAT to scum read people. Obviously that's in bad faith. or just delusional. we went over this.

so it's not even about being proper. it's just being human in a game that promotes human-like characteristics: TALKING

[DoubtingThomas]

see and this is why you are scummy. you are not concerned about my alignment. you dont want to solve me. you've been pushing mislynches all day and (as far as i can tell) is wrong about me and refuse to interact with me

Who said I don't want to solve you?

I'm waiting to see if you vote SR. The fact you haven't yet isn't helping you.

and that's where you are wrong. In your world, scum reading is always scum and if I were scum with him, I'd have voted scum reading already to stop conversation and get "town credit"

who the fuck won't "bus" in this situation?

[DoubtingThomas]

You spend lots of time aggressively insulting people, which I don't like nor do I think is proper etiquette. But I'm not calling you scum for it.

Don't even start this. You ignore people, in a game of engaging. I get annoyed and also want to play the game by trying to draw reactions out of you, so i insulted you.

don't pretend like i was rude to you before you were rude to me. ignoring is just as rude. stop living in your own world.

[DoubtingThomas]

Scum waiting for a townie to vote me doesn't bus yet.

Such a level one thinking. Volxen has already expressed multiple times they just want to hammer scum reading.

You think there's even a remote possibility that a scum is waiting for townie to "Vote you"???

are you saying there's two scum in me/volxen/alonzo?

[DoubtingThomas]

You scum read me for ignoring your pointless questions because you ignored me.

That's just delusional. not just in a game of mafia, but for life.

Period.