Problems with the Queues

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Post Post #225 (ISO) » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:50 am

Post by brassherald »

Which ones?
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Post Post #226 (ISO) » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:51 am

Post by brassherald »

Wait, a second, you just put them in.

I'm calling that a mission success on my part.
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Post Post #227 (ISO) » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:55 am

Post by T-Bone »

I noted them, but they've both been in sign-ups for about two days.
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Post Post #228 (ISO) » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:58 am

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Post Post #229 (ISO) » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:01 am

Post by brassherald »

I don't think anyone knew that they were in sign ups. Legit question for when I want to sign up for another, who announces that there is a new game in sign ups now?
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Post Post #230 (ISO) » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:39 am

Post by T-Bone »

The Game Mods do (but I will prod people as necessary)
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Post Post #231 (ISO) » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:40 am

Post by RadiantCowbells »

Can we blame you anyway
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Post Post #232 (ISO) » Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:29 pm

Post by T-Bone »

Sure
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Post Post #233 (ISO) » Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:35 am

Post by brassherald »

I blame the game mods, then.

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Post Post #234 (ISO) » Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:40 am

Post by Persivul »

In post 230, T-Bone wrote:The Game Mods do (but I will prod people as necessary)
Well, then I gotta ask, then why can't the customers just take the specifications directly to the software people, huh?
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Post Post #235 (ISO) » Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:16 am

Post by Enter »

In post 234, Persivul wrote:
In post 230, T-Bone wrote:The Game Mods do (but I will prod people as necessary)
Well, then I gotta ask, then why can't the customers just take the specifications directly to the software people, huh?
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Post Post #236 (ISO) » Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:50 pm

Post by northsidegal »

I am bumping this thread rather than creating a new one because some of the issues brought up are topical, although some are outdated.

There are currently eight ongoing normal games and only one ongoing open game. While some of this may simply be due to more demand for normal games than open games, I believe a considerable amount is due to the Open Games Queue. I originally wrote lot more here about the nature of queues and why we have them, but it's probably pointless.

I believe the main problem with the open queue is that unpopular games can grind the queue to a halt. With normal and newbie games, there's really nothing to select before you sign up for a game, with the exception of maybe the moderator (and in the case of normal games, what size of game you want to play in). And we can see that those are currently the two most popular queues. With opens, micros and mini themes, you specifically select which setups you'd like to play before signing up for them. In the case of opens, I think this leads to major problems if games start to halt the queue (and the same case could be made for mini themes, but I'm not here to make that today).


I don't mean to turn this too much into specifics or into blame, but currently in the open queue is:
  • Switch (Setup), a nightstart game with a cop and a serial killer. I think this setup has a lot of problems (funnily enough, this was another thing mathdino took issue with), and although I can't know this, I expect that a lot of potential players do as well.
  • And Hard Boiled, a setup which, as I understand it, has a breaking strategy. This setup has also been in the queue for about a month, is not close to filling, and has not been pulled.


What am I suggesting to solve this problem? If anyone remembers when the Micro queue had a separate "Tiny Games" slot, I think that something similar should be done for the open games queue.

Currently, the way the queue works is that mods sign up, and then there are always two games in signups at once. When one game fills or is pulled, the next mod in the queue is put into signups. I propose that the open queue have three "slots" for signups, each "slot" being something specific: one slot for "mini" open setups, games greater than 9 players, one slot for "micro" open setups, 9 or less, and one slot for experimental setups. This is similar to what already happens in the Normal queue, where there is always one mini normal and one large normal in signups at once. So, for instance, if a micro open were filled or pulled, the next game in that "slot" wouldn't necessarily be the next mod in the queue, it would specifically be the next mod with a micro open setup. (Perhaps I'm overexplaining something that everyone already understands, but I'd just like to not be misunderstood.)

I think that this would at least do work to alleviate the issue of queue blockage. In the first place, having three setups able to be in signups at once reduces the chances of all games in signups being unpopular. Second, even if they were to still fill at a slow rate, micro games take less players to fill, and as such ensuring that there are never only larger games in signups should help the queue move faster. Third, and this is less to do with queue blockage but perhaps still relates, giving a dedicated slot for experimental (or "new") setups I believe will both encourage the creation of new setups as well as incentivize more people to play open games. It's been a noted problem of the monthly open game challenges that very few of the setups are ever played, even the winners.

There are some problems with my suggestion that I know. The first I can see is that of "splintering" -- I went more into this in a longer version of this post, but basically if we had every mod in queue in signups at once, it would likely lead to players being spread out across games rather than coalesced into one or two games, which could actually lessen the rate at which games fill. Having three games in signups at once instead of two would theoretically increase splintering. That being said, I think that micro games alleviate the problem of splintering, and ensuring one is always able to be in signups should help that. The second issue is that of overlap with the Micro queue. Micro open games can already be run in either the micro queue or the open queue, and it may be said that giving them a dedicated slot in the open queue will only serve to hurt the micro queue. It is true that this change would take some games away from the micro queue. However, having the open queue have a dedicated slot for micro opens should free the micro queue up and allow Micro Normals or Micro Themes to reach signups faster. In fact, this problem already exists in some form in the fact that Micro Normals can be run in either the Micro queue or Normal queue.
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Post Post #237 (ISO) » Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:02 pm

Post by BBmolla »

Mathdino fixed Hard Boiled with Noir, why is the former still being run?
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Post Post #238 (ISO) » Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:03 pm

Post by northsidegal »

i assume just because noir isn't known about, although i could be wrong
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Post Post #239 (ISO) » Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:06 pm

Post by popsofctown »

The overlap would be novel, wouldn't it? There would always be an Open game in the open queue that could have queued as a micro. Currently it is not the case that there is always a Normal game in the normal queue that could have been queued as a micro.
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Post Post #240 (ISO) » Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:06 pm

Post by gobbledygook »

I don’t really understand why we allow micro sized games to be run outside of the micro queue. I think it backlogs those queues. Obviously this is pointed at the Normal queue because it is the only one with an appreciable amount of micro games being run in it.

That being said, I do think the Open queue should have a dedicated micro slot. Many of the open game setups are smaller games. If any queue outside of the dedicated Micro queue should have a micro slot, it is the Open queue.

I do think there is something to be said about the quality of the Open games floating through the queue. Just because a game is Open, doesn’t mean it’s fun. I think a lot of open game designers strive for certain theoretical win percentages rather than trying to design a fun game that is capable of being run when everyone knows everything.
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Post Post #241 (ISO) » Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:07 pm

Post by Alisae »

In post 236, northsidegal wrote:I believe the main problem with the open queue is that unpopular games can grind the queue to a halt.
In the mini-theme queue, there were 2 games.
- A game modded by TheWizard, which no one seemed to be interested because the mod has poor site rep
- A game modded by Aeronaut, who you can count on to flake.

For those 2-3 weeks, the mini-theme queue was completely dead.
Then the Waifu uPick went up and filled within a day.

--
In post 236, northsidegal wrote:I don't mean to turn this too much into specifics or into blame, but currently in the open queue is:
Switch (Setup), a nightstart game with a cop and a serial killer. I think this setup has a lot of problems (funnily enough, this was another thing mathdino took issue with), and although I can't know this, I expect that a lot of potential players do as well.
And Hard Boiled, a setup which, as I understand it, has a breaking strategy. This setup has also been in the queue for about a month, is not close to filling, and has not been pulled.
my personal opinion is the Open Queue should just have completely different setups. A lot of these setups really just suuuuuuuck
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Post Post #242 (ISO) » Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:08 pm

Post by BBmolla »

LlamaFluff tried to put a system in place to prevent less than balanced setups from getting put into place but it's sort of fallen apart.

I would fight harder for it but I'm not sure if people are more interested in balanced setups or new setups.

But the "approved open setups" system would prevent stuff like the above.
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Post Post #243 (ISO) » Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:08 pm

Post by Alisae »

THERE ARE NO GOOD MAFIA GAMES ATM WTF
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Post Post #244 (ISO) » Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:09 pm

Post by northsidegal »

In post 240, gobbledygook wrote:I don’t really understand why we allow micro sized games to be run outside of the micro queue. I think it backlogs those queues.
to the contrary, i find that the open queue is so backlogged that non-open micros find themselves backlogged by the micro opens that otherwise would have been in the open queue. i think a situation like that is taking place right now.
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Post Post #245 (ISO) » Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:11 pm

Post by popsofctown »

Queues will always suck because you get your turn in queue based on what you want to mod, and whether it fills quickly is based on whether you want to play. It's the Electoral College of forum mafia
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Post Post #246 (ISO) » Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:13 pm

Post by northsidegal »

In post 241, Alisae wrote:
In post 236, northsidegal wrote:I don't mean to turn this too much into specifics or into blame, but currently in the open queue is:
Switch (Setup), a nightstart game with a cop and a serial killer. I think this setup has a lot of problems (funnily enough, this was another thing mathdino took issue with), and although I can't know this, I expect that a lot of potential players do as well.
And Hard Boiled, a setup which, as I understand it, has a breaking strategy. This setup has also been in the queue for about a month, is not close to filling, and has not been pulled.
my personal opinion is the Open Queue should just have completely different setups. A lot of these setups really just suuuuuuuck
This is something that's been noticed, and actually a lot of work has been done in a subforum to re-do the current list of "Approved Open Setups". There are two problems:
  1. As far as I am aware, the work done was never actually implemented into any meaningful change. Partially I am to blame for this as one of the people who worked on re-doing the list of Approved Open Setups, as I think I've let the subject sort of drop. I'm going to go back and look over the earlier work done and try to come up with a finalized proposal for that as well.
  2. Also as far as I am aware, the "Approved Open Setups" are really only for first-time mods or mods who don't know in advance what setup they want to use. If someone wanted to mod a specific setup that wasn't approved or their own experimental setup, they could do. This is partly why I suggested an experimental queue, to ensure that two games that might be less than balanced or too weird for the general population to appreciate don't block the queue.
In post 245, popsofctown wrote:Queues will always suck because you get your turn in queue based on what you want to mod, and whether it fills quickly is based on whether you want to play. It's the Electoral College of forum mafia
Could you elaborate?
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Post Post #247 (ISO) » Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:15 pm

Post by Alisae »

tbh, I just want a queue that is exclusive to only the moderators with the highest rep. Something sorta like a VIP queue.
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Post Post #248 (ISO) » Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:16 pm

Post by BBmolla »

Experimental queue isn't an awful idea, but a Open Setup Review Group could also solve the issue of checking setups before they're run.

If you look at those contests I'm sure there are plenty of willing folks.
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Post Post #249 (ISO) » Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:16 pm

Post by BBmolla »

Let's have a low priority queue for untested/bad mods/games

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