Open 78: Friends & Enemies (Over) - before 608

[icemanE]

/confirm

[icemanE]

vote: Rishi

For being so mean in 584! Here's your home game back!

/gives home game back

[icemanE]

Grimmy - why no avatar?

[icemanE]

dcorbe - why no avatar?

[icemanE]

Not having an avatar is a scum tell now?

I guess all the newbies here are in bad shape then!

@Mr. Blonde: curious why me not voting deserves scrutiny.

It's the random voting stage. You're supposed to vote for someone.

[icemanE]

I was wondering when someone would say that. But BW work on helping conversation and this game is more silly at this point.

The only real conversation coming out of that BW is "why are you voting me because I don't have an avatar" which is a totally reasonable question.

[icemanE]

I think his reaction will be interesting.

Or, going along with what you've said, annoying and pissy.

[icemanE]

I'm gonna have to

FoS: Rishi

as well.

However, I agree with what rofl has said thus far regarding dcorbe (who, when he's trying to be very sincere, uses his real name in his posts, apparently ^^^), especially this:

dcorbe wagon is being ridden by scum, methinks

As such,

unvote, vote: farside

.

[icemanE]

Well, someone has effectively derailed the conversation!

Where in SD are you? I'm always looking for someone to go drinking with. I've only been here since November so you'll have to approximate your distance from me in terms of how long it would take to drive to get there from where I am Wink

I'm living downtown right now, in the (aptly) little italy area.

FoS:dcorbe

for an enormous subject change.

[icemanE]

Surye and icemanE oh and celebloki going along with it also noted.

Just a question, I was the one who pointed out that the barhopping convo had taken control of the game, so I'm not entirely sure how I was grouped in with the people participating in it.

Also, Daniel, I have to reiterate how much I love the fact that you sign your name when you "really mean something", its funny haha.

[icemanE]

Surye and icemanE oh and celebloki going along with it also noted.

Just a question, I was the one who pointed out that the barhopping convo had taken control of the game, so I'm not entirely sure how I was grouped in with the people participating in it.

Also, Daniel, I have to reiterate how much I love the fact that you sign your name when you "really mean something", its funny haha.

I love you, and I really mean that...

... where's the sig?

hahaha!

[icemanE]

Well at L-1 all I have is my claim as town. At least lynching me no power roles are revealed, which gives the scum nothing but guessing for the night.
I don't think I'm reaching. Please look at those who were on my wagon. I don't think my vote against dcorbe is wrong. I say look at him tomorrow.

I'd like you to do a better job of explaining why you're so convinced that I'm scummy based on meta conversation which everyone pretty much agrees has no relevance to the game.

If you are town and for the sake of your team mates, please either quote posts, talk about some of my actions.. something.. *anything* that could be useful to us at all. Either that or back off until you have a better case.

A lynch this early on D1 is more likely to have a bad result rather than a good one.

Votecount as of post 125

farside22 - 6 (Roflcopter, IcemanE, Mr. Blonde, Korts, Grimmy, dcorbe)
Rishi - 1 (Tekkactus)
dcorbe - 1 (farside22)
Grimmy - 1 (Celebloki)

Not Voting - 3 (Pokerface, Surye, Rishi)

7 to lynch

dcorbe - What's suspicious about this post is that you recommend we not lynch this early and yet you don't withdraw your vote, which would take farside off of L-1.

[icemanE]

Well at L-1 all I have is my claim as town. At least lynching me no power roles are revealed, which gives the scum nothing but guessing for the night.
I don't think I'm reaching. Please look at those who were on my wagon. I don't think my vote against dcorbe is wrong. I say look at him tomorrow.

Hmm... I initially glanced over this post, but look back at it I'm actually sort of inclined to believe it. Though scum often say something like "I'm just a townie so at least we aren't losing anyone important", the "look at the people on my wagon, especially dcorbe" part of the message sort of hits home. That last piece of the message would hold no water if farside turned up scum, and farside seems to sort of concede instead of getting overly defensive and fighting back. Her comments about the offtopic bar discussion and wide-reaching suspicions are still suspect, but, at least for the time being, I'm going to believe the claim.

unvote

[icemanE]

The thread deserves a reread by the mod. Technically it looks like she was already hammered.

I voted (Lynch), then pokerface unvoted to put her at L-1

I thought she was at L-2, actually that's why I didn't remove my vote.

@Mod?

Even in this post, even after you realized she might be at L-1, even just to be safe in case she HADN'T been hammered yet (which she wasn't) you still neglect to remove your vote. It wouldn't bother me if you didn't make it a point to say "I don't think it's a good idea to lynch this early". Also, YOU would have been the one to hammer as you were the last person to put a vote on farside - how did you go from thinking she was at L-2 to thinking she was dead when nothing happened between your voting post and the next one?

[icemanE]

ok what? convincing? i think her fatalism is having exactly the effect she wanted on you guys.

You might be right, but for the time being, I'll buy it. There's no deadline, no rush. I'm still keeping her in mind, but her concession doesn't feel like a scum concession, to me - I'd give a few examples but I'm only in ongoing games right now and Rishi would jump on me if I cited them

[icemanE]

dcorbe - see my question in post 131.

[icemanE]

dcorbe - you're still on the farside wagon - do you still favor a farside lynch?

[icemanE]

Nice post, Poker. I should have time a little later tonight to weigh in on what you say about everyone else, but while I have a few free minutes now I'll just respond to what you've said regarding me.

icemanE's early comments feel alot like he was playing both sides of the fence. First he mentions the issue about dcorbe needing an avatar.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 19#1093019
Then he jumps on Rishi and votes Farside when he was originally voting rishi.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 64#1094264
Then he jumps back at dcorbe.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 37#1094937

What I think is strange is that a "no avatar" wagon formed in the first place. That wasn't my intent - earlier in the game I asked Grimmy to get an avatar too, and I didn't and still don't really see how not having an avatar is a scum tell in any way. One of the strangest things is the difference between how people reacted to Grimmy not having an av and dcorbe not having one. Check it out:

Grimmy - why no avatar?

He finds them suspicious.

I think it goes beyond that. Avatars find Grimmy suspicious.

Just a few jokes, etc, no votes. Now dcorbe, same question to start it off:

dcorbe - why no avatar?

Oh my, another San Diego scummer. Unvote, Vote: dcorbe

Note: I don't think Surye's vote was related to the avatar issue, but nonetheless it's the first after my post so I feel its necessary to mention it. Moving on:

obvious scumtell

This is in response to my "dcorbe, why no avatar?" post.

Sidebar - I meant to ask you, Blonde, whether this comment was aimed at me or dcorbe. Either way I don't really follow how its a scumtell and I assume you're joking, as you did when I asked Grimmy to get one.

So far, the reaction seems to be pretty similar to when Grimmy didn't have an avatar. Then this happens:

Unvote
Vote: dcorbe
for not voting anybody

...and the bandwagon begins.

Actually, I play in a lot of newbie games as an IC. I'd say that 90% of them will get an avatar if asked.

Unvote, Vote: dcorbe

Someone needs to join a newbie game me thinks.
unvote:
vote: dcorbe

Those two votes seem incredibly opportunistic to me. Rishi

actually

seems to be voting dcorbe for

not having an avatar

and Farside claims we were getting good info out of that bandwagon, to which I said:

The only real conversation coming out of that BW is "why are you voting me because I don't have an avatar" which is a totally reasonable question.

It was a bizarre bandwagon - those last two votes seemed to have been placed as "middle of the road" votes, which after a lynch don't seem as important as the first or last, making it appealing for scum to place them, especially if there's a readily available excuse.

Anyways, as far as me playing both sides of the fence, I think you're talking about this post:

I'm gonna have to FoS: Rishi as well.

However, I agree with what rofl has said thus far regarding dcorbe (who, when he's trying to be very sincere, uses his real name in his posts, apparently ^^^), especially this:

rofl wrote:

dcorbe wagon is being ridden by scum, methinks


As such, unvote, vote: farside.

I'm actually talking about two different issues here, but it's poorly worded. I agreed with dcorbe that Rishi was pushing the wagon oppurtunistically (I actually stupidly FoS'd him while my vote was still on him from the random stage which he was keen to point out) but I also agreed with rofl that dcorbe's wagon was being ridden by scum. The way the initial post reads makes it seem like I'm saying I agree with rofl that dcorbe isn't scummy, but what I really meant to say was that rofl was right in that scum were probably riding dcorbe's wagon. Therefore I put my vote on farside - so in the post i express my suspicion of both farside and Rishi, and accidentally make it seem like I'm not suspicious of dcorbe. Which, as evidenced by my more recent posts, I obviously am. Keep in mind that we're dealing with two scum teams here - Rishi and Farside could be teammates OR be on separate factions - one could even be teammates with dcorbe - either way, those are my three biggest suspects right now.

Here is what I don't like about Icemane's response to the claim

Well at L-1 all I have is my claim as town. At least lynching me no power roles are revealed, which gives the scum nothing but guessing for the night. I don't think I'm reaching. Please look at those who were on my wagon. I don't think my vote against dcorbe is wrong. I say look at him tomorrow.

Hmm... I initially glanced over this post, but look back at it I'm actually sort of inclined to believe it. Though scum often say something like "I'm just a townie so at least we aren't losing anyone important", the "look at the people on my wagon, especially dcorbe" part of the message sort of hits home. That last piece of the message would hold no water if farside turned up scum, and farside seems to sort of concede instead of getting overly defensive and fighting back. Her comments about the offtopic bar discussion and wide-reaching suspicions are still suspect, but, at least for the time being, I'm going to believe the claim.

unvote

Overdefensiveness is not a direct scum tell. There was a mafia discussion thread about that awhile back and if i find the link later on I will post it in the thread. In my 'current' opinion overdefensiveness can only become a scumtell if it reaches the point where the player's responses and attacks come off as OMGUS every other post. OMGUS is a scum tell, but overdefensiveness certainly isn't.

Hmm... another poorly worded post on my part, it seems.

Note: Mod, it looks like the quote might not format properly, if there's an issue would you mind correcting it? I don't see quote tags inside my quote to denote the quoted passage inside it. Thanks.

What I mean to say in the post is essentially this: farside's claim seems more town than other claims I've seen. That doesn't necessarily mean it's a valid claim, but without a deadline in sight, there's no reason to rush a kill, so for now, I'll give it the benefit of the doubt as there are many other subjects to investigate and at least three more scum to find.

The whole overdefensiveness bit doesn't really correlate to what I tried to get across - I only mention overdefensiveness because she DIDN'T do it, so Poker, a mafia theory question: Do you mean to say that the LACK of overdefensiveness, which is what I point out in the post, is a town tell, a scum tell, or a null tell? I couldn't quite tell from the post, because you point out that overdefenisiveness, which her post lacks, is not a scum tell, but you also say you don't buy the claim. In that sense, if she HAD been overdefensive would the claim look any different to you, or would you be just as suspicious of it?

Anywho, thanks.

[icemanE]

dcorbe - my suspicion is based primarily off of the last page, that being page 6 - the inconsistencies between what you say and how you vote, the latter being the more powerful in mafia.

[icemanE]

@dcorbe:

Another reason I am suspicious of you is your OMGUS style of play. I'll cite examples in a second. In response to your most recent post:

1) I'm explaining why I think the claim is worthy of pausing her lynch, not defending a lurker. She's still on my FoS list, as I've clearly said. I just don't think it's necessary to lynch someone this early on. You, on the other hand, have gone back and forth on this issue of lynching her, leaving your vote on her when you think she shouldn't be lynched, yet also giving what you thought was the hammer vote. It's very inconsistent.

2) The above responds to this point - Every time you address the "farside issue" it's inconsistent with previous posts, and that's worth noting.

Farside - It would be good of you to respond to his question and participate in this game. I understand you have a baby but you seem to be active in other games, as dcorbe pointed out.

As far as the OMGUS I mentioned earlier, here's where I've seen it:

FoS: Korts

That was post 115 - you FoS Korts because he criticized your irrelevant conversation.

Unvote
Vote: farside22

Post 121, shortly after farside expressed her suspicion of you.

FoS: icemanE

Your most recent post. Your first point I responded to already in this post. Your second point, about your discussion getting overshadowed by my "accusatory chatter" is straight up OMGUS. I made a lengthy post describing my stand on the game, and pointed out your inconsistencies. You attempt to dismiss it as irrelevant.

[icemanE]

If I were trying to dismiss your arguments as irrelevant I wouldn't even dignify them with responses.

- Daniel.

Lol.

[icemanE]

Keep after it though, because maybe if you repeat it over and over again you can get the town to lynch me based on that fact alone and you won't need to come up with any new case building material on me whatsoever.

Buddy, I'm not trying to convince anybody to lynch you. You asked me to tell you why I thought you were suspicious, and I did. If you didn't want it you shouldn't have asked for it.

[icemanE]

You're probably going to dismiss this as an OMGUSy reaction

I don't dismiss posts. I consider them. You should think about doing the same. OMGUS is a scum tell, and thusly, while the tally of your OMGUS posts rises, I don't dismiss them - rather, I watch them accumulate, and along with them, your level of scumminess rises.

You're correct, rofl, that FoS doesn't get us anywhere. As such:

vote: dcorbe

However, rofl, you are nailing this farside case HARD and I don't know that she's as scummy as you make her out to be. The case on her seems to be A. Her low level of activity, B. Her inconsistency, and C. Her poor reasoning behind her vote. These are all decent scum tells, but I'm not sure she needs to be lynched IMMEDIATELY as you state in your most recent post. Is she the best candidate for a lynch so far today? I would say so, at this stage, but I'd like to do a little more talking before we take that step, call me reluctant or what you will but I'm in no rush to kill. I'd like to see what we can get from our other scummy players - currently I'm looking at dcorbe, as you can see.

I await farside's post tomorrow. I think that will advance the game and perhaps be a deciding factor in the course of the Day.

Votecount as of post 175

farside22 - 4 (Roflcopter, Mr. Blonde, Grimmy, dcorbe)
dcorbe - 1 (farside22, IcemanE)
Grimmy - 1 (Celebloki)

Not Voting - 5 (Pokerface, Surye, Rishi, Korts, Tekkactus)

7 to lynch

[icemanE]

All I'm really trying to do is respond to you.

Right, but the way you're responding, i.e. in an OMGUS fashion, is what's telling me you've got something to hide.

If I weren't responding I would have earned your vote anyways.

I don't think that's the case. I didn't vote for you until 5 posts ago, after your OMGUS posts accumulated.

You said yourself the OMGUSy reactions were more indicative of my play style than my alignment.

Hmm, I don't recall saying that. I do remember Rishi or rofl or someone else saying that, I'll look for the quote, Regardless I don't really agree that a scummy, OMGUS playstyle excuses someone from suspicion.

Is there anything other than what we've discussed and what I've attempted to address other than what you feel are OMGUSy reactions that you feel the need to put your vote on me?

I feel that's enough to warrant a vote at this stage in the game.

On another note, your most recent post is the most legitimate, least OMGUS post I've seen from you in awhile, which is a good sign.

[icemanE]

The vote on dcorbe is not because he doesn't have an avatar (though that's not helping). It's his general attitude. He's really defensive and lashing out at people. Pretty much every post he's made has been pissy. This doesn't necessarily mean he's scum - more likely he's just a jerk.

This may be what you're referencing, dcorbe. I read through my posts and didn't see anything of the like - maybe I missed it, though. If that's the case, point it out.

[icemanE]

So, farside is the best candidate for lynch - yet IcemanE votes dcorbe?

Yeah, farside is still the best candidate, but being the best candidate (i.e., the most scummy) doesn't mean we've got to kill her right now - there are still going to be at least 3 scum going on into day 2, and if we're fairly sure farside is scum on day one, it makes sense to look into others, since we've got the time. I want to check everyone out before we kill someone - just because you've got a scum doesn't mean you have to kill it right then and there.

I'm also missing why Farside is voting dcorbe.

I think she's voting Korts, but you're right, her dcorbe vote was weird.

dcorbe also reasons his vote by saying "just feels" (gut tell without any reasons is bit suspicious).

Yup.

I think you've got something wrong in your reading - first off this quote is from me, not dcorbe:

dcorbe: I meant to ask you, Blonde, whether this comment was aimed at me or dcorbe. Either way I don't really follow how its a scumtell and I assume you're joking, as you did when I asked Grimmy to get one.

And the VAST majority of post 155 is actually a mis-formated post 154, which is also my post - the only thing dcorbe says in that post is:

You mind explaining why you think I'm scummy instead of trying to subliminally plant the idea into everyone's head?

It must have taken you a little while to think through and type all of that out. You could have taken 5 extra minutes to explain it.

Which is not an explanation of anything, just a question pointed at me ...So I'm going to go ahead and assume that you are actually talking about MY explanation in 154.

Mod if you could fix that quote tag it would be a big help.

[icemanE]

Okay, I've fixed the tags in 154, the quote of 154 in 155, and the open tag from post 161. All tags should be correct now.

Muchas gracias, that makes it a million times clearer.

[icemanE]

she was found scummy enough to bandwagon into claiming, and her vanilla claim makes her either scum or expendable. this may seem like a harsh judgement, but i'd rather lynch a vanilla townie and get the information out of it than pussyfoot around til deadline and have to scramble to find a lynch.

I can see what you're saying here and by post's end, I will have voted her, but the way I play the game, I like to see what I can get out of as many people as possible before I just lynch somebody. We won't get that much info out of her lynch, if she turns up town, which is unfortunate, but sitting still isn't going to get us anywhere either, and I don't see the town moving too far past the idea of a farside lynch. Heck, I think it should happen too, but there's no deadline. There's no reason to rush to kill. I understand,rofl, that our playstyles differ greatly in that regard, but look at it like this, which is how I play - farside is the fallback lynch. If no one does anything so incredibly scummy today that there's a reason to lynch them instead, I plan to lynch farside, because in reality she IS the safe bet - though I hate the idea of lynching a townie it doesn't make sense to take a stab on someone we are unsure of and potentially screw things up by killing a power role, which has happened in pretty much every other game I've played. But generally, I really don't see a reason to rush to a kill when there's no deadline.

Dcorbe, who was my second biggest suspect, has looked much better over his past few posts, other than this comment, which is unfounded in regards to my relationship with him:

Secondly, I'm really only attacking those who continue to take decidedly out-of-game comments and pass them off as case building material. It's nonsense really.

This, though, seems to be proving itself true:

I'm sure as the game progresses you'll see that I can be a little more level-headed than I'm currently being given credit for.

This smells like rolefishing:

You keep on saying this, why? There is no benefit to the town by withholding this information.

Anyways,

unvote - vote:farside

, and I hope we can slow things down a bit tomorrow, as today is already decided.

[icemanE]

Also, I expect to hear from Grimmy either before or after this lynch - I still don't see why you're on this wagon. Either way, let the hammer fall and let's ride this out tomorrow - if farside is town maybe everyone will settle down a bit and stop following rofl's charge horn, so I guess her lynch is worth it in that regard, too.

[icemanE]

Hopefully before someone drops the hammer. And we should also at very least wait until Surye answers his prod or gets replaced before we make the decision to lynch. He might have some fresh insight for us.

I'm still leery about a lynch this early on D1.

Again, here's the thing that weirds me out and keeps me on edge.

You say you don't think she should be lynched yet, but she's on L-1. All someone has to do is vote her and she's toast.

But you leave your vote on her.

[icemanE]

EBWOP - Above quote = dcorbe

Votecount as of post 225

farside22 - 6 (Roflcopter, Mr. Blonde, Grimmy, dcorbe, Pokerface, icemanE)
dcorbe - 1 (Celebloki)
Korts - 1 (farside22)
Mr. Blonde - 1 (Rishi)

Not Voting - 3 (Surye, Korts, Tekkactus)

7 to lynch

[icemanE]

Hopefully before someone drops the hammer. And we should also at very least wait until Surye answers his prod or gets replaced before we make the decision to lynch. He might have some fresh insight for us.

I'm still leery about a lynch this early on D1.

Again, here's the thing that weirds me out and keeps me on edge.

You say you don't think she should be lynched yet, but she's on L-1. All someone has to do is vote her and she's toast.

But you leave your vote on her.

By my count she's L-2, not L-1

Poker and I both voted for her on the last page.

[icemanE]

I never really said that I oppose the lynch because at this point I really don't

Under other circumstances, a little later into the game I wouldn't have as much reservation about the lynch as I do now.

If someone presents a fairly thought out counter argument (anyone at this point, really) then I will remove my vote.

I don't want you to remove your vote - I just want you to be consistent about whether or not you want to lynch her. You essentially contradict yourself in those first two quotes - you want to lynch her but have reservations because the pace of the game is moving too quickly for you, and if you want to slow it down all you'd have to do is take your vote off. It's fence sitting.

You also say you're just sitting on the wagon, as one of the "middle guys" who won't look suspicious tomorrow if she turns out to be town:

Right, but I've been on the wagon now for a little while, so why should I jump off?

You're making it sound as if I'm the one who put her at L-1.

Often, to me, the people who join the wagon and just sit on it neutrally (like yourself and Grimmy) are more suspicious than the last few voters.

If you really want me to I can go back through the topic and pull out my justification for voting farside, but I feel as if I've already repeated myself enough.

No, I don't need that. But you've given just as many reasons why she shouldn't be lynched as you have that she should, so for me it just looks like you want SOMEBODY lynched, essentially whoever has the biggest bandwagon at the time, and farside's is an easy one to ride at this stage. It seems as if, tomorrow, you want people to look back on your posts from today and say "Dcorbe was on the wagon, but he wasn't the first or last vote, and he sounds protown when he says X and Y". It looks like bussing.

[icemanE]

You're operating under the premiss that reservation is the same as opposition and it isn't. I would be concerned about the motives of the people on the wagon who are 100% sure without a doubt that their lynch target for D1 is correct because it is just simply impossible to tell this early in the game.

Good point.

[icemanE]

I have been getting kicked in the nuts by homework

You've been kicked in the nuts!

Anyways, good luck and godspeed catching up, we've hit a rut.

[icemanE]

IcemanE has some nerve discussing fence sitting since he was doing that somewhat earlier.

Nah, I explained to you how I wasn't, you misread the post that I typed up poorly and I explained it in a response.

And I think IcemanE's reluctance between dcorbe and farside should be looked at tomorrow regardless of farside's alignment.

No reluctance, I'll do either, like I've said. That's the same as saying your willingness to lynch either Korts or farside is reluctance - actually, it's the opposite, as it is with being willing to go with either dcorbe or farside. I would prefer farside today though, as she's the safer bet, as I've explained.

IcemanE has some nerve discussing fence sitting since he was doing that somewhat earlier. Also something about him saying "bussing" rubs me the wrong way. Saying dcorbe was bussing is making an early inferance that farside is scum. I wonder if icemanE "knows" that she is for certain.

Or... no. My comment assumes she is scum, without that context, there would be no way to frame it. Of course I'm making an inferance that she might be scum - as has everyone else who has voted or FoS'd her, what would be the point otherwise?

As far as what you have to say on Korts, I'm glad you pulled out this quote:

And the feeling that dcorbe's intentions are the opposite of what he says is fine, but farside including this as a point in the case against dcorbe is also a weak scumtell

...because it makes no sense. How is using the "intentions are the opposite of what he says" case against dcorbe not OK? That's a big deal, IMO. It's like being scum but acting protown (which, as has already been mentioned, is more significant in this particular game than in most because of the two scum teams... I'm wary of Korts for this reason also, with his PBPA's that go nowhere) - it's inconsistent with the intentions of the player. It's a reach to say the least to use that as a scumtell against farside.

A list of my top lynch candidates ATM:

1. farside
2. dcorbe
3. Korts

Currently there's no one else I'd advocate a lynch on. Though I've also become slightly wary of Poker's large, helpful posts (it sounds funny to say that, but the whole two scum team thing needs to be taken into account here), I don't see that as enough of a reason to take any action whatsoever against him currently. Additionally, if he is scum, he's still doing a good deal to help the town, so he will be beneficial as time moves forward. I will look into him on day 2 at the earliest.

[icemanE]

My problem with IcemanE is that I see him changing his mind back and forth when someone questions him. One moment I'm the lynch. The next he unvotes me, then I'm scum. I haven't really seen a reason from him on why he thinks so.

1. Voted you for early pressure (didn't say that in my vote post because if you do, your vote is basically pointless).
2. Unvoted you due to your claim and because I wanted to pressure dcorbe
3. Voted you because I consider you to be the safest bet - as far as I can tell you have an equal chance of being scum as you do being town, and since you didn't claim one of our three power roles it's not a big risk in day 1.

I never withdrew my suspicions, just my vote. I think it's back where it belongs for today.

Votecount as of post 250

farside22 - 5 (Roflcopter, Mr. Blonde, Grimmy, dcorbe, icemanE)
dcorbe - 1 (Celebloki)
Korts - 2 (farside22, Pokerface)
Mr. Blonde - 1 (Rishi)

Not Voting - 3 (Surye, Korts, Tekkactus)

7 to lynch
Tekkactus has been prodded as of 6/18

[icemanE]

Yup, now I think Korts is a better pick for day 1. Farside may be the safe bet, but Korts is a hell of a lot scummier than Farside has been so far. Tek makes a good point here about the case against farside, because this really is pretty much it:

The evidence of Farside being scum seems to hinge on two main points: her "buddying up" with rofl (Which I don't see as such to begin with; it seems more like a "Good posting" than anything) and her stance on the SD drinking conversation. Granted, there are additional knocks against her but these form the basis of her case.

I don't agree that dcorbe is a good day 1 lynch, though. I dislike his playstyle and attitude in the early game, but he has not only become much more civil, he's also become a good contributor, so there's no reason to get rid of him ATM. He still responds primarily to posts addressed at him, though, and it's not OMGUS, but it's not too far from it. It would be nice to see some analysis of some people that aren't attacking you, D.

My suspicion of Korts is based mostly on what I mentioned earlier - the scum in this game need to be protown for more reasons than just to appear that way. If this were a game without two scumteams, I'd say his PBPA's were just extraneous and more or less unnecesary - the targets he choses to analyze (other than farside, perhaps) seem opputunistic, as they tend to focus on the leading wagons (other than the rofl PBPA which was just strange) especially when you look at the results they yield - almost entirely

weak scumtells

that are debatable in their validity. Since this a two scumteam game, I see these PBPA's as an attempt to both appear protown and potentially cast suspicion on whoever happens to look scummiest at the time - he's gotta get rid of those other scum too.

Though I'm wary of another claim, further narrowing the odds of outing a power role, I have a good feeling that Korts is scum. I am still willing to do farside today, but she's fallen to second on my list.

1. Korts
2. Farside
3.

Tek

Yes, Tek replaces dcorbe. Now, Poker, lest you misinterpret what I'm saying again - I agree with Tek that farside's wagon is based on two not-so-scummy incidents, but I also think Tek is scum. I'm beginning to this a Tek-farside team is plausible. Tek has met the textbook (or wiki, anyways) definition of lurking. He pops in to say a couple words that don't further the game at all and then disappears for a few pages. Here's where I see the farside-Tek connection:

I'm starting to see why farside is L2.

- Distancing, and then defense, which comes from post 255, quoted above in this post.

The distancing - defense model of scum partners is a fairly common tactic. Tek distances but does not vote her when she's near a lynch, then begins to defend her when people start to fall off her wagon.

So anyways,

unvote - vote: Korts

[icemanE]

Keep in mind that the scum partner idea in the above post only works fully if farside is scum - however, as I've said, I think she has an equal chance of being either, so it's definitely something to keep in mind. Regardless of farside's alignment, Tek is lurking, hard.

[icemanE]

As far as my calling people out who are attacking me, I'm going to respond to people who throw baseless accusations around.

Yes, definitely, I agree, it's vital for the town for this to happen. This, though:

You'll noticed that in Korts' mess he did raise a few legitimate points that I didn't feel required a response.

...not so much. I would think the legitimate points would be your first priority, as they are the ones that are, you know, legit.

[icemanE]

You need to make up your mind about how you want me to act. When I'm responding to every little nitty gritty point I'm being OMGUSy. When I back off I'm hiding. Which is it?

I think, like in everything, it's more about the way something happens than the event itself that's important. Everyone in the game is responding to points against them - that is the nature of the game. My latest biggest thing with you is that you're now acting to satisfy me, apparently. YOU need to make up YOUR mind on how to act - as I've said, it's the inconsistencies that bug me.

Votecount as of post 275

farside22 - 4 (Roflcopter, Mr. Blonde, Grimmy, dcorbe)
dcorbe - 1 (Celebloki)
Korts - 3 (farside22, Pokerface, icemanE)
Mr. Blonde - 1 (Rishi)

Not Voting - 3 (Surye, Korts, Tekkactus)

7 to lynch

[icemanE]

@dcorbe

- I agree on Korts
- I agree we have been back-and-forthing too much. However, if you find something someone does scummy, there's no reason to hold back from pointing it out. Perhaps its the fact that you and I seem to be on at the same time, or just have more free time than th others, that is to blame for this, but whatever the cause, if someone does something scummy I'm going to post about it.
- I have said I don't want you lynched today. I still don't, but collecting and filing information on day one is great for making decisions day two, so I want to get as much as I can down today to build a case tomorrow.

[icemanE]

Gee, thanks for the tip - I don't know, according to our joined dates it looks like I've been playing a little longer than you have, not that either of us have been playing for long enough to justify giving "tips".

You seem very worried about important things getting "lost in the noise", I've heard that more than a few times. Do you sum up all arguments against you as noise? I've made a very similar argument to this one before - you tend to try to shrug off and dismiss arguments against you as insignificant, when they really aren't. I've explained why I think Korts is a good day one lynch. If for some perverse reason you WANT me to try to get you killed today, I guess I can try, but I'd rather wait and make a more sure bet to get off on the right foot.

[icemanE]

There's nothing anti-town about exposing scumminess.

This:

It's is a most valid point that we're drowning stuff out. You'll see...

Is bogus. You'll see... is totally bogus. Stall tactics, implying delayed release of important information that you feel you need to conceal, is bogus.

FoS: icemanEGo ahead and keep pressing issues against someone you've stated that you have no intention of wagoning today. It really makes you look super pro town.

I'm not trying to LOOK pro-town, I'm BEING pro-town. There's an important difference - that is, unlike Korts, whose PBPA's are relatively shallow attempts at DEMONSTRATING protownness, and youself, dcorbe, who feels entitled to be a dick because you're under pressure, I am actively and consistently searching for and exposing scumtells as they appear. I'm not going to write a list so I can make a big, important LOOKING post somewhere down the line - if I see someone doing something scummy I'm going to say HEY, THAT'S SCUMMY. If I feel like I NEED too I can come back and pull all those posts into one big one later on - there's no noise, all analysis is of value, as it tells something about both the analyzer and the analyzee. If you keep dropping tells I'll keep picking them up - do you think your strategy is better? Namely, to both look AND act anti-town?

[icemanE]

First off, don't even post a response if you don't want a response to your response. You know you'll get one.

Thanks for trying to correct my misguided attempts, though they're neither misguided nor attempts (what, might I ask, am I attempting that I'm not succeeding at? Getting you lynched? That's not my priority).

1 - Pressure and wagons are two different things. Wagons are better pressure, of course. But I feel it would be fairly easy to reform a wagon on you, if for some reason that's what you want. However, that wagon would be filled with people I find scummy, like Korts and Tek, so I don't see much of a point at this stage in the game.

2 - I don't think I've been a dick. Several players have noted that you have.

3 - If you'll notice, I'm sometimes satisfied with your points when they pertain to other players I already find scummy (makes sense, doesn't it?) but that's about it.

4 - It's actually classic Here's who I think is scum and why, but hey, you read the textbook, so you must be right, since you have an official term for something you've probably actually seen in action once or twice in your extensive two month mafia career. Please, I'm not trying to act like a high and mighty know-it-all, you should think about being a tad more humble. That's clearly your playstyle, but act your age.

[icemanE]

OK.

[icemanE]

Thanks for your contribution, Rishi.

Anyways I'm starting to agree that this is becoming completely unproductive. The discussion helped me, though, decide that dcorbe is probably not scum.

[icemanE]

For scum pairings I'm now thinking:

Tek - Korts

farside - ??? (perhaps Rishi for lurking and almost no contribution thus far)

[icemanE]

farside - ??? (perhaps Rishi for lurking and almost no contribution thus far)

WTF?

You really think I'm worse than Mr. Blonde, Celebloki or Surye in terms of lack of contribution?

Are you even reading the thread? Maybe you should post less and actually pay attention.

Your last post - you hadn't posted in awhile and then you came in and said one line about how you thought we were off track - and that was it.

[icemanE]

I am leaning Iceman, Korts. I think they may be on the same side especially seeing Iceman defend him.

Hmm... I actually want to lynch him. That's pretty poor defense on my part, eh?

[icemanE]

Hmm... this looks stunningly similar to the muffinhead i just finished a game with where he was town - it's not a killer meta but it's enough to make me switch to my second suspect in line.

unvote - vote: Tek

[icemanE]

@IcemanE: Last I knew I was #3. When and why did I go up?

When muffin replaced Korts my suspicion of him went down a bit, because I just finished a game where muffin was town. I was expecting something that felt different if muffin were scum this game but he sounds just like his town self. For now I think it's a good enough reason to put him on the backburner and wait to see if he starts dropping scumtells.

So since I moved him down on the list, you moved up to #2. That means my lynch candidates are:

1. Farside
2. Tek
3. Muffinhead

I guess it makes more sense for me to

unvote - vote: farside

since she's still on top of the list. I still feel she is the safest bet, as I explained earlier in the game. I also liked your reaction enough that I feel justified in removing my vote for the moment.

Votecount as of post 350

farside22 - 4 (Roflcopter, Mr. Blonde, Grimmy, icemanE)
dcorbe - 2 (killa_seven, farside22)
Muffinhead - 1 (Pokerface)
Surye - 1 (Rishi)
Tekkactus - 1 (dcorbe)

Not Voting - 3 (Surye, Muffinhead, Tekkactus)

7 to lynch

[icemanE]

The same applies for icemane. How is she the safest person to lynch? I cant find where you said that and dont have time for a proper look.

Just a reminder that anyone can explain to me the why farside is scummy, if not then there is no chance i will join in.

I think a full reread would put everything in way better context and make you a much more useful part of the town.

This is from post 250 where I explained my reasons for voting farside:

3. Voted you because I consider you to be the safest bet - as far as I can tell you have an equal chance of being scum as you do being town, and since you didn't claim one of our three power roles it's not a big risk in day 1.

[icemanE]

Okay, you've been jumping from bandwagon to bandwagon giving very little reasons - and defending by saying "my words make no sense". My post 338 points out how:
- dcorbe jumps from one vote to another very quickly, giving whatsoever no reasons besides "others must be right"
- worries about his imago (post 230)
- wants to lynch anybody besides himself, and actually accuses me of this

You're very right about that. I have questioned his motives and methods of voting all along and they continue to be suspect.

[icemanE]

@ Muffin - You have set up a strawman with the way you frame the above quotes. You turn everyone's reason for voting farside into "she had one scummy post". That is inaccurate and is not representative of the way that part of the game unfolded. There were three seperate reasons provided for the votes. Blonde's was the closest to what you give as a reason, but it is still inaccurate, as Blonde states that he was voting her for the purpose of bandwagoning. Bandwagoning and lynching are two seperate things. Grouping all three players votes into one category and giving a single reason for it is a clever way of subtly pinning suspicion on players without actually having to come out and say it.

The use of this tactic returns you to the realm of scum, in which your predecessor, Korts, dwelled.

unvote - vote: Muffinhead

[icemanE]

Additionally, you come very close to contradicting your own reasoning in your post.

Now I understand how this caused a wagon due to the fact that farsides vote was based on the fact he doesnt doesnt have an aviatar which has nothing to do with this game.

then people decide they vote him for a wagon

Now surly we cant lynch farside based on that one scummy post.

[icemanE]

Well first of all can you give a clear reason to why you are voting me as it doesnt make sense to me.

It isn't all you. More than half of it is Korts, who you replaced, who I wanted to lynch before you replaced in. You can refer to my reasons for wanting to lynch him on previous pages. Your latest post is what drew my vote back to you/Korts.

First of all what are you going on about when you say I use tactics? I explain my oponion of the scnario and you say im using tactics with those 3 quotes. I couldve used a couple more different quotes but those were the first ones I saw.

What I'm saying is that the way you frame those three quotes implies something. You say

then people decide they vote him for a wagon

which is more or less accurate. However, after you cite the three votes, you say:

Now surly we cant lynch farside based on that one scummy post.

That implies that the reason all three of those people voted for farside was because we thought she was scum based on one post, which is inaccurate. It's providing your own reason for other people's actions. It not only ties those three people in together, but it also implies that they had a bad reason for voting, when in fact, you provide the bad reason. It's a fallacy.

The point of the quotes were to show that there was only one scummy post which got farside on L-1 for and that NOT ONE person had a good long proper reason to lynching farside. Yet there were people ready to end the day.

There is a difference between putting someone at L-1 by way of bandwagon and actually wanting to lynch that person. People form bandwagons to put pressure on someone. They don't necessarily want to lynch them when they place their votes, but people tend to drop more scum tells when they are under pressure - so lynching is not always the end goal when a vote is placed, yet your post attempts to make it seem as it that was the intent of all the votes when in fact you've invented that intention yourself.

[icemanE]

A logical fallacy I've begun to see as recurrent through both rofl and dcorbe's posts is:

Argument from repetition: A simple but sometimes effective technique which simply requires a player or faction to repeat its (essentially false) argument so many times, usually in virtually identical words, that the group begins to see it as an assumption and acts on it. This can be an especially effective technique in the endgame when the scum are aware that they just need to confuse a floundering ProTown player, and the Town is unaware that they are actually facing a Lynch-or-Lose situation.

It works well when a player has an established reputation for excellent logic or play, and even moreso when faced with lurking or newbie players on the other side. The sheer weight of posts may prevent anyone from making an effective argument against them, and they may begin to believe "well, what harm can it do to test the idea?"

I'm wary of both the charges rofl tends to lead by repeating a simple idea over and over again briefly but authoritatively and the similar tactic employed by dcorbe, especially highlighted in his most recent post.

[icemanE]

word, my bad im here.

This deserves a vote. You need to play the game, not just be here.

unvote - vote: killa

[icemanE]

i have my opinion but i wanna see yours first.

Why?

[icemanE]

don't want to unduly influence you on it.

Won't we be unduly influencing you by telling you first?

[icemanE]

K7 would be my first choice with Surye as a close second.

[icemanE]

What would be the case on me?

I'm just answering rofl's question, there's no particular case on you. Of the lurkers I think K7 is the worst and you are second - though you've begun to post now, which is good.

[icemanE]

Any reason you left out Mr. Blond, with his lovely "Checking in, nothing to add"?

Good point. I completely forgot he was even playing, that's how bad he's lurking. I still put K7 on top of the list though.

[icemanE]

Any reason you left out Mr. Blond, with his lovely "Checking in, nothing to add"?

Good point. I completely forgot he was even playing, that's how bad he's lurking. I still put K7 on top of the list though.

OK. K7 < Blonde.

unvote - vote: Mr Blonde

[icemanE]

@ Muffin - masons are our only power roles, and the only power they have is the knowledge that their fellow masons are townies. The last thing we want is for them to claim. If one mason claims, another will need to claim to verify it, and then we only have one mason left hidden - and if there's only one mason, he's essentially a vanilla townie. Rather then claiming, masons should be doing what rofl says:

i seriously doubt a mason will be lynched, as there would be at least two other people strongly campaigning against the lynch of that person, and masons are not about to bus one another.

Mr blond is still the way to go today.

[icemanE]

Pokerface, Mason has been eaten! (Kibbles and bits even!)

This seemed like an obvious choice. Poker was way protown - I was actually a little suspicious of him, but it makes sense now.

Rishi, Werewolf has been shot! (With silver bullets no less!)

This doesn't seem like such an obvious choice. I'm gonna look back at some day one interactions real quick.

[icemanE]

i was wrong about farside yesterday btw, she's probably town.

Why's that?

[icemanE]

@ icemane- Why were you suspicious of poker? Also why doesnt rishi seem like an obvious choice to you?

I was suspicious of poker because of what I mentioned yesterday - that whole thing about scum wanting the other team dead, so they have extra incentive to be protown. Poker was far and away the most protown yesterday, so I was a bit suspicious, nothing I was going to act on on day one though. The fact that he was a mason explains all that, though.

Rishi doesn't seem like an obvious choice because he didn't stick out to me as being particularly protown or awfully scummy yesterday, just middle of the road.

[icemanE]

So you thought that poker was scum for acting incrdibly protownish? No offense but that has to be one of the craziest theories ive heard of. Definatly the most scummiest post ive seen from you this game.

I explained this yesterday. This game is different than others - there are two scumteams. So the scum want scum lynched just as much as the town does. Like I said, I wasn't nearly suspicious enough to act on anything, but I believe I mentioned my suspicions yesterday. I'll look for the quote after this post. Anyways, my theory was that he might have been hunting so hard because the scum probably have even more motivation to find scum since they're competing. Obviously that theory is out the window.

[icemanE]

Yeah, here it is, post 248:

Though I've also become slightly wary of Poker's large, helpful posts (it sounds funny to say that, but the whole two scum team thing needs to be taken into account here), I don't see that as enough of a reason to take any action whatsoever against him currently. Additionally, if he is scum, he's still doing a good deal to help the town, so he will be beneficial as time moves forward. I will look into him on day 2 at the earliest.

I'm still looking at Rishi on Day One, got distracted. Probably won't be able to analyze that until tomorrow morning.

[icemanE]

OK, after a reread my suspicions are pretty similar to yesterday's.

Tek, K7, and muffin are highest on my list.

Tek, for the possible distancing connection rofl mentions, and for yesterday's events, seems like a possibility for Rishi's partner.

vote: Tek

However, a couple questions:

1. Rofl, I'm still curious why you suddenly decided farside is town - that's a 100% turnaround from yesterday. For no reason that I can see. Talk about distancing...

2. @ the town: Do you think it's a better idea to try to hunt down Rishi's partner today to get rid of one scumteam, or to try to find the other - the reason I ask is because, like we saw last night, there's the possibility for a crosskill with both teams alive. Personally I think we should just kill whoever seems scummiest regardless of what we think their faction is, but I'm curious what you all think.

[icemanE]

I disagree with IcemanE about Rishi. Even though Rishi wasn't all that active I still didn't think anything scummy about him.

???

[icemanE]

speaking of wolf's I think the only person Rishi didn't really mention or buddy up with or say really much about was Iceman.

Vote: Iceman
You wolf's scum buddy?

No. I'm curious why you think a lack of interaction is a sign of a scumteam - in this setup especially I think bussing and distancing are much stronger scumtells in terms of finding teams - the scumteams each have a nightkill so the obvious play for a scumpartner would be to bus in order to set himself apart from his partner and thereby avoid both town suspicions and the NK. I'm still in the process of looking at Rishi yesterday - sorry, haven't had time to do a full readthrough yet - but I'm going to be looking more at those he voted for with poor reasons than those he ignored.

@K7 - I really disliked your playstyle towards the end of day one. The obviously intentional lurking was scummy as hell.

[icemanE]

Rofl, for the reasons stated,

The meta I have on rofl is that he is very fond of bandwagons and likes to lynch quick. The game I played where I got that meta, he was a serial killer. He's playing similarly here, and combined with that insanely abrupt turnaround on farside, I'm becoming suspicious of him quickly.

Killa 7, for his lurkiness combined with that preemptive hammer yesterday,

I agree with this.

Grimmy, for being active in the thread without having actually contributing anything. Additionally, he's defended numbers one and two by using meta-reasoning, which I got blasted for on D1.

I kind of agree with this, I have no read on Grimmy right now. Which thereby makes me suspicious of him.

[icemanE]

iceman: expand your sample size. my one completed game as anti-town is not a complete view of my overall playstyle. you'll find it to be pretty much exactly the same in my completed games as town.

mmkay

[icemanE]

I'm fairly certain IcemanE will be one of tonight's kills. The other one will probably be Dattebayo or roflcopter.

Well, that's enough to make me certain we've found a bad guy. String him up!

[icemanE]

BAH!

[icemanE]

Good game everybody, that was a fun one