911: What's Your Emergency? (Postgame)

[Baezu]

Or why you think that he "saw what you did".

well at this point he has explicitly stated that he did:

several people had already posted, you didn't engage with any of them or any of the page 1 content, instead voting somebody who hadn't gotten to the thread yet with an explanation that pinged me as awkward

Ya. I thought the same when I read it so I was happy when you had the same reasons

and since his post 30 is consistent with this explanation, I don't see a reason to disbelieve that.

Why are you townreading him exactly?

I would say it's far more important to argue for scumreads than townreads right now. If you think rooster's scum because you think he's tonally awkward, the responsibility is on you to vote him and make your case to everyone else. I'm not interested in giving reasons for my townread, I expect you will argue with them and the result will be to drag this game into a noisy disagreement that's of no real value. further, he has ~75% odds of being town in the objective sense, so to calling him scum is the claim that's less likely to be true by default and the one that requires justification.

unless/until rooster's at risk of lynch, my focus is on finding scum, not defending town.

Maria- GL is town, moving on
Also, are you planning on supporting any of your reads?

In other news- I’d like to hear more from the people who have made less than 5 posts please.

[MariaR]

she's one of the more active slots and several of your townreads have stated townreads on her

so I don't know why she was left out

And? I don't see how this is relevant. You can be active/have a lot of posts and not have a read on a player. I'm not saying I don't have a read on tris but the way you're going at this is strange.

like if you're trying to townblock then tris should be in your townblock IMO, the fact that she wasn't is mildly sus

I never said I was trying to townblock nor was I. I don't see why if my townreads have tris as a townread that I must have her in a townblock. Why is she not being in there sus to you? You're acting like if I townread x and x townreads y I should townread Y. Sometimes that theory is decent if you have a lot of games with them or it's really late into the game but this early is just ???

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Elbirn

[MariaR]

Maria- GL is town, moving on
Also, are you planning on supporting any of your reads?

This statement is so ironic that I laughed a little thank you. Imson posting is obv town, the wagon on him was trash. ofthz I had a mindmeld with. Not explaining the rooster read for reasons. Invis early posts are really bad along with his vote on Imson.
Why I voted Guilty? Well where's the fun in explaining that one so soon

[GuiltyLion]

she's one of the more active slots and several of your townreads have stated townreads on her

so I don't know why she was left out

And? I don't see how this is relevant. You can be active/have a lot of posts and not have a read on a player.

I'm not saying I don't have a read on tris

but the way you're going at this is strange.

if you have a read then give it. you can pressure me about why I'm asking for it and still give it at the same time - why are you being cagey about it?

]I never said I was trying to townblock nor was I

you gave townreads, why else give those if not to start working to form a consensus of townread players. if you weren't trying to townblock then what were you doing?

You're acting like if I townread x and x townreads y I should townread Y

yes, I generally believe this to be good play. if you don't townread Y then you should be talking to x about it.

most of all I just feel like tris is a game-relevant read, both because she's done Stuff ^TM this game and because you have townreads on players townreading her. I truly don't get why you left her out.

[MariaR]

if you have a read then give it. you can pressure me about why I'm asking for it and still give it at the same time - why are you being cagey about it?

Mostly because I find this way of interaction much more entertaining than the simple black and white way you play the game. Not that playing the game ina black and white manner is a bad thing per se. I just find this way more interesting. You said you find me not putting tris in my reads list sus right? Why'd you vote Elbirn then? Shouldn't you be voting me?

you gave townreads, why else give those if not to start working to form a consensus of townread players. if you weren't trying to townblock then what were you doing?

A lot of people already seemed invested in the game and I'm not the type to just jump in randomly. So I wanted to give some townreads to get some reactions and get talk going. I'm not going to give you a 20-page essay on why you should tr the people I tr. I like everyone getting there own set of reads at first to see who I can poke and prod about it later. It's hard to poke at people if they just say 'oh I agree with x reasoning on y'

yes, I generally believe this to be good play. if you don't townread Y then you should be talking to x about it.

most of all I just feel like tris is a game-relevant read, both because she's done Stuff TM this game and because you have townreads on players townreading her. I truly don't get why you left her out.

Sure I can see where you're coming from.
Maybe I left tris out for a reason. Let's keep letting tris do 'her stuff' if the people I tr want to keep tring her go for it. I'll just keep doing my thing.

[Baezu]

This seems like TvT, tbh

UNVOTE:

[Baezu]

VOTE: yes mafia

[Elbirn]

well at this point he has explicitly stated that he did:

several people had already posted, you didn't engage with any of them or any of the page 1 content, instead voting somebody who hadn't gotten to the thread yet with an explanation that pinged me as awkward

Ya. I thought the same when I read it so I was happy when you had the same reasons

and since his post 30 is consistent with this explanation, I don't see a reason to disbelieve that.

So you're satisfied that his reasoning is "uhhh yeah what he said"? I find it difficult to believe that he both shares your hackneyed reason for scumreading baez (not engaging enough by page 1? Uh-huh.) and that it made him "happy". Reads like justifying after the fact.

I would say it's far more important to argue for scumreads than townreads right now. If you think rooster's scum because you think he's tonally awkward, the responsibility is on you to vote him and make your case to everyone else. I'm not interested in giving reasons for my townread, I expect you will argue with them and the result will be to drag this game into a noisy disagreement that's of no real value. further, he has ~75% odds of being town in the objective sense, so to calling him scum is the claim that's less likely to be true by default and the one that requires justification.

unless/until rooster's at risk of lynch, my focus is on finding scum, not defending town.

No-no, I'm not having a semantic battle with you about burden of proof. Dont deflect. I'm asking you why you're townreading Rooster, because I'm trying to sort *you*. As it stands I think you're bullshitting, and yes it is up to you to show me if I'm wrong about your alignment.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: GuiltyLion

[Invisibility]

Insomnia and ofrhz are town.
Rooster is towny
Invisibility is a valid vote as well
hm well, that was easy.

who is the other valid vote

[Invisibility]

i feel like someone comes out scummy in this gl elbirn thing but my mind literally cannot compute whats happeenenign

[GuiltyLion]

You said you find me not putting tris in my reads list sus right? Why'd you vote Elbirn then? Shouldn't you be voting me?

I think Elbirn is scummier than you, reasons forthcoming (though some of which are waiting on tris)

[GuiltyLion]

So you're satisfied that his reasoning is "uhhh yeah what he said"? I find it difficult to believe that he both shares your hackneyed reason for scumreading baez (not engaging enough by page 1? Uh-huh.) and that it made him "happy". Reads like justifying after the fact.

it's not hackneyed, but good try at a discredit

also unpack this for me: what do you think the interactions are between rooster and I, S-T or S-S?

like
- do you think we're scum together and we decided to open with him sheeping me, then us mutually agreeing it was a good vote? why is that likely, especially considering how unlikely it is a priori that we're both scum?
- do you think he's scum sheeping misguided town!me?
- do you think I'm scum and he's the misguided town? in which case your reasons for scumreading him were wrong to begin with?

I'm not really seeing which of any of these makes sense from a town!you.

No-no, I'm not having a semantic battle with you about burden of proof. Dont deflect. I'm asking you why you're townreading Rooster, because I'm trying to sort *you*. As it stands I think you're bullshitting, and yes it is up to you to show me if I'm wrong about your alignment.

I'm not trying to get into a semantic battle, I'm straight up telling you why I don't care to answer your question. Do you agree that faking townreads as scum is significantly easier than faking scumreads as scum? Because your question is a pretty bad way to sort me if that's your intention. If I'm scum it's easy for me to make up reasons why town!rooster is town. If we're scum together, I point you back to asking you why you think we're scum together and why we decided to open the game this way, because that's even more unlikely than the odds of one of us being scum to begin with.

If you can't see that I'm town and rooster's town, that says a lot more about your game than it does mine.

[GuiltyLion]

your hackneyed reason for scumreading baez (not engaging enough by page 1? Uh-huh.)

also just to be thorough and explain why this is a discredit

my reason was never "not engaging

enough

". it was more the fact that she straight up did not engage with any of the content before her with her first post.

it's pretty straightforward reasoning:
- town do not have the information and needs to probe people to figure out their alignments. this fact doesn't change if it's page 1 or page 20.
- scum have most information, are scared of making disingenuous looking pushes, and benefit from when town is chaotic/disengaged/not-reading-eachother

so who is more likely to make an empty vote on page 1 that does not generate information? town or scum? I argue scum, and that's why I saw baezu's opening as potentially a scum-indicative one. does that make her lockscum? absolutely not, I'm 100% open to re-visiting and I have already since done so. Is it worthy of making a non-random vote on page 2? Yes.

this is easy stuff, it's not hard to understand. and it's not hard to believe that roster felt the same way.

[tris]

I took a look at some of Baezu's games, and her RVS's there seem pretty consistent with how she was here. Even sometimes when there was more relevant content to react to. UNVOTE:

You meta'd someone on page 3 about their RVS behavior?

I did it to see how much her meta lined up with what she was saying in 59.

Insomnia is overly defensive but probably town

Rooster had a weird entry to the thread and I dont know why THAT wasnt the reason for insomnia's vote.

I get the impression that insomnia is enthusiastic tryhardy newbtown who demands substance for everything but he'll grow out of it I hope. I dont really agree with his reasoning but i get it from a newbtown perspective

I think I'm leaning towards this with respect to insomnia.

like if you're trying to townblock then tris should be in your townblock IMO, the fact that she wasn't is mildly sus

Why do you think she leaves me out if she's scum?

Or why you think that he "saw what you did".

well at this point he has explicitly stated that he did:

several people had already posted, you didn't engage with any of them or any of the page 1 content, instead voting somebody who hadn't gotten to the thread yet with an explanation that pinged me as awkward

Ya. I thought the same when I read it so I was happy when you had the same reasons

and since his post 30 is consistent with this explanation, I don't see a reason to disbelieve that.

Why are you townreading him exactly?

I would say it's far more important to argue for scumreads than townreads right now. If you think rooster's scum because you think he's tonally awkward, the responsibility is on you to vote him and make your case to everyone else. I'm not interested in giving reasons for my townread, I expect you will argue with them and the result will be to drag this game into a noisy disagreement that's of no real value. further, he has ~75% odds of being town in the objective sense, so to calling him scum is the claim that's less likely to be true by default and the one that requires justification.

unless/until rooster's at risk of lynch, my focus is on finding scum, not defending town.

Maria- GL is town, moving on
Also, are you planning on supporting any of your reads?

In other news- I’d like to hear more from the people who have made less than 5 posts please.

This is strange to say when you'd only expressed one read at this point.

Insomnia and ofrhz are town.
Rooster is towny
Invisibility is a valid vote as well
hm well, that was easy.

who is the other valid vote

She voted for GL in the post before.

i feel like someone comes out scummy in this gl elbirn thing but my mind literally cannot compute whats happeenenign

This post feels towny.

-----------------------------------

I think there's a lot of clashing of playstyle going on with GultyLion and MariaR. I think I just have to hear more from them.

-------------------------------------

UNVOTE:

Let me think.

[Invisibility]

ok

[GuiltyLion]

Why do you think she leaves me out if she's scum?

keep mislynch/scumread options open

committing to townreads early on is difficult for scum as it narrows trajectories for them over the course of the game

or another explanation, maybe she just didn't think it'd be important to fake a read on you at the time

I don't think it's more likely scum behavior than town behavior, overall it's probably NAI, but I did think it was worth pushing on - the fact that she still won't commit to a townread on you is meh

[GuiltyLion]

I took a look at some of Baezu's games, and her RVS's there seem pretty consistent with how she was here. Even sometimes when there was more relevant content to react to. UNVOTE:

You meta'd someone on page 3 about their RVS behavior?

also now that tris has answered this, I want to jump in - I also thought this was a fairly scummy/bad question from Elbirn.

tris already looked town to me at this point, and it isn't hard to believe someone could or would quickly meta RVS behavior for a slot when that behavior is specifically under contention. meta-ing RVS is easier/simpler than meta-ing entire games.

further, what's the scum!incentive or explanation for tris to do a fake "meta" and then unvote? why does Elbirn think this question will help him sort tris? If he thinks she's lying about it, why would he not just come out and say he doesn't believe it? There's no answer to this question from tris that would genuinely help read her, it reads more like a question meant to shade and fake engagement.

[Invisibility]

I took a look at some of Baezu's games, and her RVS's there seem pretty consistent with how she was here. Even sometimes when there was more relevant content to react to. UNVOTE:

You meta'd someone on page 3 about their RVS behavior?

also now that tris has answered this, I want to jump in - I also thought this was a fairly scummy/bad question from Elbirn.

tris already looked town to me at this point, and it isn't hard to believe someone could or would quickly meta RVS behavior for a slot when that behavior is specifically under contention. meta-ing RVS is easier/simpler than meta-ing entire games.

further, what's the scum!incentive or explanation for tris to do a fake "meta" and then unvote? why does Elbirn think this question will help him sort tris? If he thinks she's lying about it, why would he not just come out and say he doesn't believe it? There's no answer to this question from tris that would genuinely help read her, it reads more like a question meant to shade and fake engagement.

lets not do stuff like scum!incentive ok relegate that to talking about people because that makes things simple

also no? why is it bad that elbirn framed it as a question? don't you wanna like, try to get in other people's heads if you have no idea what they're doing?

also scum incentive is to look like you're doing stuff. its easy to do meta on rvs. (this is not me calling tris scum)

[GuiltyLion]

lets not do stuff like scum!incentive ok relegate that to talking about people because that makes things simple

also no? why is it bad that elbirn framed it as a question? don't you wanna like, try to get in other people's heads if you have no idea what they're doing?

also scum incentive is to look like you're doing stuff. its easy to do meta on rvs. (this is not me calling tris scum)

I don't understand what you're saying in the first point. I am specifically talking about tris and how I don't see a specifically scum-indicative motive for her play

certain questions are obviously genuine and other questions are meant to paint someone in a negative light. I think Elbirn's question is pretty clearly the latter. It's obvious that tris is asserting to have meta'd Baezu. That's literally what she said. Like, his question is asking her to repeat herself that she did that. He's not trying to get in her head, that's my point.

Yes, tris did a thing. There's two explanations, she did it as town because it's useful or she did it as scum to pretend to be town being useful. At best it's completely NAI, because town!tris would have done the same thing. There's nothing in that post that is

more

likely to come from scum!tris, therefore it's a worthless question. Unless he thinks she straight up lied about doing the meta. Which I would love to hear if that's what he really thought

[tris]

actually sorry, on second thought

VOTE: Baezu

tris your vote is still bad though

When you asked this, did you think I was serious?

[GuiltyLion]

kinda yeah

like I thought the vote was serious even if you were being jokey about it, especially cause you referred to a prior game and didn't move it

but then I thought for a minute and figured you would be less likely to open so forwardly as scum and it was generating info, that's why I switched

[Invisibility]

ok i get that
also i was saying that its kind of weird to conjoin scum incentive like scum!incentive because that can be confused with saying things like, scum!invisibility

[GuiltyLion]

sorry yeah I see what you're saying, "scum incentive" is probably more clear than "scum!incentive", not sure why I did the latter tbh

anyway I feel I've been kinda dominating the past few pages so I'm out to play some Rocket League, catch you all later and hope to see some Elbirn votes on my return

[tris]

kinda yeah

like I thought the vote was serious even if you were being jokey about it, especially cause you referred to a prior game and didn't move it

but then I thought for a minute and figured you would be less likely to open so forwardly as scum and it was generating info, that's why I switched

By the way, what I was referring to there was a vote I made in RVS in my last game where I simply said "This is scum" with no actual reasons to back it up.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Invisibility:

lean town

insomnia:

lean town

rosterfoster:

I like what I've seen so far. Lean town.

Ofrhz:

Hasn't done much, but I'll say nulltown.

Baezu:

While I think her RVS behavior was NAI, I haven't really seen anything all that town from her. Null maybe nullscum.

Volxen:

I didn't comment at the time, but I agree with skitter that 11 is a bit LAMIST. A smidgen nullscum.

MariaR:

Don't really have a read here. Pending.

GuiltyLion:

His processes seem natural enough. I'm always paranoid about someone like this being scum though.

These three are just null. Need to hear more from them.
skitter30
Yes Mafia
Enigma

VOTE: Elbirn I think GuiltyLion has some good arguments. I'll join this.