911: What's Your Emergency? (Postgame)

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: tris

[GuiltyLion]

actually sorry, on second thought

VOTE: Baezu

tris your vote is still bad though

[GuiltyLion]

Henlo peeps meh name is Insomnia

VOTE: rosterfoster

His vote is ew

disagree

what was ew about it - who the vote was on or the way he expressed it?

[GuiltyLion]

@insomnia what's inherently wrong with sheeping onto a scumread? personally I think Baezu is a good vote at this moment. You shouldn't need everyone to have their own original unique reason for voting somebody

[GuiltyLion]

several people had already posted, you didn't engage with any of them or any of the page 1 content, instead voting somebody who hadn't gotten to the thread yet with an explanation that pinged me as awkward

[GuiltyLion]

@insomnia what's inherently wrong with sheeping onto a scumread? personally I think Baezu is a good vote at this moment. You shouldn't need everyone to have their own original unique reason for voting somebody

your vote is based on guts right now.

He has one post (Baezu)

Roster sheeped you on someone with 1 post.

and there's absolutely nothing scummy about that especially at this stage in the game

if anything, if he saw the same things I saw then I give him town points for it

[GuiltyLion]

Stacking votes in rvs on someone without posts is scummy tho

Plus, he mentioned “The Lion is onto something” not “I agree with GL’s read”, huge difference.

it's really not

there's no better way to get out of RVS than a good ol fashioned wagon

I also don't see the "huge difference" at all. Like the meaning of those two statements is pretty much effectively the exact same to me.

do you

really

think roster is scum and you've caught him on this or do you have some other reason for continuing this argument?

[GuiltyLion]

several people had already posted, you didn't engage with any of them or any of the page 1 content, instead voting somebody who hadn't gotten to the thread yet

with an explanation that pinged me as awkward

So you think it’s scummy to not place a vote on the people who had already posted?

yes, vaguely. it's play that doesn't generate any information. why aren't you trying to generate information? There were lots of posts you could have done something with, 9, 11, 12, 16. those are all potential starting points for engagement (or a vote) and moving out of RVS. the fact that you chose to vote elsewhere

and the way that you justified it

(you also left my bolded here out of your question) looks page 1 scummy to me, yes.

[GuiltyLion]

Inno until proven guilty, there’s nothing relevant for me to join / support this wagon

so Baezu is inno until proven guilty but Roster is now guilty enough to merit a vote?

how would you feel if someone who hasn't posted yet said "insomnia is onto something" and voted roster?

(also, join date doesn't invalidate scum indicative play. until I see town play from Baezu or someone else more strongly scum, my vote stays on what looks scummy to me)

[GuiltyLion]

GL what do you think of Elbirn’s 18

not a fan of it

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Rooster had a weird entry to the thread and I dont know why THAT wasnt the reason for insomnia's vote.

you think insomnia's town and there's yet another separate more valid reason to be voting roster

yet you are not voting roster?

[GuiltyLion]

well no that vote doesn't make me happy because I think roster's townie

I'm more just asking why you have to be prompted to vote an apparent scumread

[GuiltyLion]

Or why you think that he "saw what you did".

well at this point he has explicitly stated that he did:

several people had already posted, you didn't engage with any of them or any of the page 1 content, instead voting somebody who hadn't gotten to the thread yet with an explanation that pinged me as awkward

Ya. I thought the same when I read it so I was happy when you had the same reasons

and since his post 30 is consistent with this explanation, I don't see a reason to disbelieve that.

Why are you townreading him exactly?

I would say it's far more important to argue for scumreads than townreads right now. If you think rooster's scum because you think he's tonally awkward, the responsibility is on you to vote him and make your case to everyone else. I'm not interested in giving reasons for my townread, I expect you will argue with them and the result will be to drag this game into a noisy disagreement that's of no real value. further, he has ~75% odds of being town in the objective sense, so to calling him scum is the claim that's less likely to be true by default and the one that requires justification.

unless/until rooster's at risk of lynch, my focus is on finding scum, not defending town.

[GuiltyLion]

Maria - read on tris? She's worth a mention if you're gonna give that many reads

[GuiltyLion]

she's one of the more active slots and several of your townreads have stated townreads on her

so I don't know why she was left out

[GuiltyLion]

like if you're trying to townblock then tris should be in your townblock IMO, the fact that she wasn't is mildly sus

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Elbirn

[GuiltyLion]

she's one of the more active slots and several of your townreads have stated townreads on her

so I don't know why she was left out

And? I don't see how this is relevant. You can be active/have a lot of posts and not have a read on a player.

I'm not saying I don't have a read on tris

but the way you're going at this is strange.

if you have a read then give it. you can pressure me about why I'm asking for it and still give it at the same time - why are you being cagey about it?

]I never said I was trying to townblock nor was I

you gave townreads, why else give those if not to start working to form a consensus of townread players. if you weren't trying to townblock then what were you doing?

You're acting like if I townread x and x townreads y I should townread Y

yes, I generally believe this to be good play. if you don't townread Y then you should be talking to x about it.

most of all I just feel like tris is a game-relevant read, both because she's done Stuff ^TM this game and because you have townreads on players townreading her. I truly don't get why you left her out.

[GuiltyLion]

You said you find me not putting tris in my reads list sus right? Why'd you vote Elbirn then? Shouldn't you be voting me?

I think Elbirn is scummier than you, reasons forthcoming (though some of which are waiting on tris)

[GuiltyLion]

So you're satisfied that his reasoning is "uhhh yeah what he said"? I find it difficult to believe that he both shares your hackneyed reason for scumreading baez (not engaging enough by page 1? Uh-huh.) and that it made him "happy". Reads like justifying after the fact.

it's not hackneyed, but good try at a discredit

also unpack this for me: what do you think the interactions are between rooster and I, S-T or S-S?

like
- do you think we're scum together and we decided to open with him sheeping me, then us mutually agreeing it was a good vote? why is that likely, especially considering how unlikely it is a priori that we're both scum?
- do you think he's scum sheeping misguided town!me?
- do you think I'm scum and he's the misguided town? in which case your reasons for scumreading him were wrong to begin with?

I'm not really seeing which of any of these makes sense from a town!you.

No-no, I'm not having a semantic battle with you about burden of proof. Dont deflect. I'm asking you why you're townreading Rooster, because I'm trying to sort *you*. As it stands I think you're bullshitting, and yes it is up to you to show me if I'm wrong about your alignment.

I'm not trying to get into a semantic battle, I'm straight up telling you why I don't care to answer your question. Do you agree that faking townreads as scum is significantly easier than faking scumreads as scum? Because your question is a pretty bad way to sort me if that's your intention. If I'm scum it's easy for me to make up reasons why town!rooster is town. If we're scum together, I point you back to asking you why you think we're scum together and why we decided to open the game this way, because that's even more unlikely than the odds of one of us being scum to begin with.

If you can't see that I'm town and rooster's town, that says a lot more about your game than it does mine.

[GuiltyLion]

your hackneyed reason for scumreading baez (not engaging enough by page 1? Uh-huh.)

also just to be thorough and explain why this is a discredit

my reason was never "not engaging

enough

". it was more the fact that she straight up did not engage with any of the content before her with her first post.

it's pretty straightforward reasoning:
- town do not have the information and needs to probe people to figure out their alignments. this fact doesn't change if it's page 1 or page 20.
- scum have most information, are scared of making disingenuous looking pushes, and benefit from when town is chaotic/disengaged/not-reading-eachother

so who is more likely to make an empty vote on page 1 that does not generate information? town or scum? I argue scum, and that's why I saw baezu's opening as potentially a scum-indicative one. does that make her lockscum? absolutely not, I'm 100% open to re-visiting and I have already since done so. Is it worthy of making a non-random vote on page 2? Yes.

this is easy stuff, it's not hard to understand. and it's not hard to believe that roster felt the same way.

[GuiltyLion]

Why do you think she leaves me out if she's scum?

keep mislynch/scumread options open

committing to townreads early on is difficult for scum as it narrows trajectories for them over the course of the game

or another explanation, maybe she just didn't think it'd be important to fake a read on you at the time

I don't think it's more likely scum behavior than town behavior, overall it's probably NAI, but I did think it was worth pushing on - the fact that she still won't commit to a townread on you is meh

[GuiltyLion]

I took a look at some of Baezu's games, and her RVS's there seem pretty consistent with how she was here. Even sometimes when there was more relevant content to react to. UNVOTE:

You meta'd someone on page 3 about their RVS behavior?

also now that tris has answered this, I want to jump in - I also thought this was a fairly scummy/bad question from Elbirn.

tris already looked town to me at this point, and it isn't hard to believe someone could or would quickly meta RVS behavior for a slot when that behavior is specifically under contention. meta-ing RVS is easier/simpler than meta-ing entire games.

further, what's the scum!incentive or explanation for tris to do a fake "meta" and then unvote? why does Elbirn think this question will help him sort tris? If he thinks she's lying about it, why would he not just come out and say he doesn't believe it? There's no answer to this question from tris that would genuinely help read her, it reads more like a question meant to shade and fake engagement.

[GuiltyLion]

lets not do stuff like scum!incentive ok relegate that to talking about people because that makes things simple

also no? why is it bad that elbirn framed it as a question? don't you wanna like, try to get in other people's heads if you have no idea what they're doing?

also scum incentive is to look like you're doing stuff. its easy to do meta on rvs. (this is not me calling tris scum)

I don't understand what you're saying in the first point. I am specifically talking about tris and how I don't see a specifically scum-indicative motive for her play

certain questions are obviously genuine and other questions are meant to paint someone in a negative light. I think Elbirn's question is pretty clearly the latter. It's obvious that tris is asserting to have meta'd Baezu. That's literally what she said. Like, his question is asking her to repeat herself that she did that. He's not trying to get in her head, that's my point.

Yes, tris did a thing. There's two explanations, she did it as town because it's useful or she did it as scum to pretend to be town being useful. At best it's completely NAI, because town!tris would have done the same thing. There's nothing in that post that is

more

likely to come from scum!tris, therefore it's a worthless question. Unless he thinks she straight up lied about doing the meta. Which I would love to hear if that's what he really thought

[GuiltyLion]

kinda yeah

like I thought the vote was serious even if you were being jokey about it, especially cause you referred to a prior game and didn't move it

but then I thought for a minute and figured you would be less likely to open so forwardly as scum and it was generating info, that's why I switched

[GuiltyLion]

sorry yeah I see what you're saying, "scum incentive" is probably more clear than "scum!incentive", not sure why I did the latter tbh

anyway I feel I've been kinda dominating the past few pages so I'm out to play some Rocket League, catch you all later and hope to see some Elbirn votes on my return

[GuiltyLion]

At this point in the game, it’s fairly common for people to focus on coming up with independent scumreads (and for these scumreads to change later) and not really think about partners or the scumteam together. With this in mind, I don't see why the two bolded lines can't make sense?

This push seems reasonable on a superficial level but doesn't come off as arguing in good faith

I really didn't like the way Elbirn slid from roster to me. Either his scumread on roster was bad or his scumread on me is bad. Or both.

If he's not thinking about associatives between his two scumreads he's not really playing the game.

especially

as he's moving from one to another

I'm not interested in giving reasons for my townread

Is this a relatively recent change to your playstyle? I've played with you once (Trapped modded by mutantdevle), and I remember you being more open about explaining your townreads there.

nah, I can quote many posts extensively in past games where I say the exact same thing as town.

here's one from 2015 - "You are discrediting my townread on Kaboose at every corner. Town has no reason to do this. If you genuinely believe Kaboose is scum and I'm wrong, then you should be trying to convince me that he's scum, instead of using it as an attack on me for having an opposite read than you"
here's another from 2016 - "In a game where the vast majority of players are town, it should be your job to convince me that he's scum, not the other way around"
here's another from 2017 - seriously, read this entire post, it's exactly what I'm saying here only super polite-ified because I was IC in a newbie.

I just found these three from memory/searching discredit+townreads in my history, I'm sure I could dig up more with more effort.

there's a time and a place for explaining townreads, but when an early scumread is trying to poke holes in your townread on another player - another player who is not really under major scrutiny or lynch pressure - that is not the time.

[GuiltyLion]

I'm not really seeing the bolded? I think he stated a tr on roster and tris, but I'm not sure about forming towncores or even starting to

i am trying to form towncores

even if i am not being super obviously explicit about it

[GuiltyLion]

I don't even want this I just want my question answered

I was aggressive on the return but from my end part of this playstyle clash here is that I don't see why you care this much about an early game townread. I tend to just viberead people as town on D1 primarily for doing or saying little things that I don't think scum are as likely to think to do. roster's had a lot more than 2 posts here, he'd asked a few good questions indicating unfamiliarity with people's alignment, and I thought unvoting for insomnia claiming to be absent was a pure looking move. of course none of those things are impossible to fake as scum which is why I normally dislike bringing them into the thread, because I anticipate some contrarian or scum is going to come around trying to lawyer a townread instead of focusing attention on scumreads which IMO are more likely to be wrong and more likely to be alignment-indicative when you dig into them.

I have to feel like as town before you have also felt suspicious/exhausted with people challenging early townreads, especially given how you reacted to people scumreading early RVS posts, so I don't understand why my townread of roster has to be the thing that you're most eager to hear from me, how that could possibly be the most questionable or notable thing that stood out to you in reading this game

I do think the venom in this post/some of your other later questions ring more town
UNVOTE:

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: yes
ok this is a good vote

uh
Town -
Townlean - Elbirn, tris, GuiltyLion, rosterfoster, Baezu
Null - skitter30, Enigma, ofrhz, MariaR
Scumlean - Insomnia, volxen, Yes Mafia
Scum -
I can post reasons later when I don’t want to conserve battery but a lot of it is how I felt when reading posts i think trusting my gut is a more rational thing than I used to think so I’m not just straight up denyingg less concrete reads.

I'd swap Skitter/Baezu and these are pretty good reads

[GuiltyLion]

It’s town’s job to get rid of scum. Telling apart scummy town from scum is the most important job.

I want to revive your original wagon which should never have disappeared.

No, getting rid of mislynch bait, which scum want alive, is what town should do. Remember there is a possibility this is just scum. You'd argue on this with "he is so scummy that he must be town" which is plain dumb. look at his iso and tell me it's not scummy af.

tell me if you want this to get in lylo and fuck up all of your reads with only one post

tell me you want YM to place naked votes everyday without giving any reasons for them

people read lurking and scummy behavior as town on this website, which I can't get behind, sadly

I townread this

[GuiltyLion]

I got tris/roster/elbirn/ofrhz/skitter as very likely town

volxen I wanna think is town but his townreading me was almost a little too on the nose and I wanna see some scumreads. could maybe swap with skitter but skitter has been at least unwinding some other threads in addition to hardcore townreading/defending me as well
invis I've liked his reads so far, mindmelding on read of the game feels town-indicative
insomnia has had a few genuine sounding posts
baezu has felt kinda buddy-ish at times but some of the being lost/passive vibes pure to me and not a scum front

none of those four are totally out of scum range, just not where I want to look for now. wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong on one or a couple of them

MariaR/Yes Mafia feel like good scum candidates

Enigma isn't readable at this point

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Enigma

come play

[GuiltyLion]

Most townies try to narrow their lynchpool, not widen it

[GuiltyLion]

insomnia is off the wagon and argued for your lynch why did he move out of your lynchpool

[GuiltyLion]

sorry for my absence, I will be here tomorrow

haven't read anything at all but I see Maria calling me scum on this page and that's lol

[GuiltyLion]

yes mafia (i.e. not_mafia) is lynch bait and people are voting him because of his terrible play style rather than motive in this game

wait this is important though

is yes mafia confirmed to be an alt of not_mafia anywhere?

[GuiltyLion]

The other 2 reads are fence sitting town reads that he can easily flip back on when GL gets a mislynch and needs to go back on a dif vote.

this is that thing that scum frequently do where they assume that player [x] is scum first and then explain why their behavior

would make sense

if [x] were scum

unfortunately for Maria I'm not so the whole point here is invalid

also in what universe does giving reads on every player and trying to start forming a lynchpool become "posting for the sake of posting"

[GuiltyLion]

anyway i'm not actually gonna do a proper reread tonight but more to come tomorrow

[GuiltyLion]

reading up now

[GuiltyLion]

The other 2 reads are fence sitting town reads that he can easily flip back on when GL gets a mislynch and needs to go back on a dif vote.

this is that thing that scum frequently do where they assume that player [x] is scum first and then explain why their behavior

would make sense

if [x] were scum

unfortunately for Maria I'm not so the whole point here is invalid

also in what universe does giving reads on every player and trying to start forming a lynchpool become "posting for the sake of posting"

:squint:
i feel like there's something really wonky with this logic and i'm trying to figure out why

a) i'm not sure that this is something that i've seen scum in particular do? why do you associate doing this with scum? i feel like town scumreading people .... do the exact same thing. they think someone is scum and then explain why their actions make sense coming from scum.
like how do you distinguish between scum positing that player X is scum and then explaining how player X's actions come from scum and town believing player X is scum and then explainign how they think player X's actions come from scum?

b) like your logic is mariar posits that your scum and then explains why your actions come from scum, and your'e saying that this entire point doesn't make sense because you're not scum, and therefore it's wrong of her to push that your actions come from scum

but from her pov she doesn't know whether or not you're scum (or, at the very least, she has to say that she doesn't), so like dismissing her argument because from your pov it's invalid is kinda silly.

the thing is she's

assuming

that I'm scum and then making the argument as to why my play makes serves some agenda she made up

town don't do this as naturally because in the back of their minds they're fundamentally unsure most of the time (unless it's like a surefire super confident scumread), so the thought process doesn't go [x] is scum->"this is why their play is scummy", it goes "i feel this is sorta scummy"->maybe [x] is scum. It's subtle but it's definitely distinct. MariaR should know that

if

I'm town and just kinda not sure about my lighter townreads, I'd say exactly what I said. Fundamentally, she's stretching to make an argument that having weaker townreads is "so I can flip on them for later mislynch" instead of just thinking hey, maybe they're what they say on the tin and they're just weaker townreads. There's not really a reason to prioritize the former explanation over the latter if you're looking at it from an uninformed agenda-free mindset.

scum on the other hand tend to fall into the former because the agenda of the argument is decided before they start writing it.

[GuiltyLion]

rn im feeling lynching between skitter, baezu and maybe rooster

i kinda want to add gl to the scum pool, but cant read him due to not here

hi!

I actually think you are town now and have liked a lot of your play in my absence
UNVOTE:

[GuiltyLion]

okay so here's the deal on skitter

every now and then she makes a post that strikes me as too nuanced to come from scum

but when I

really

challenge myself to think "can scum!skitter truly not post that", I come up empty, they're not totally unfakeable. and she's making a lot of good sounding arguments but some of her conclusions (like the tris push/scumread) I strongly disagree with and have to consider that it could be scum-indicative bc I don't see how you could not be townreading tris here.

i'm a little scared I feel she flips town here like 40-50% of the time but she definitely

could

be scum, and a lot of my townreads are voting there and I totally see their reasons for doing so

and if Enigma/Volxen are town then I'm kinda in "too many townreads" world

nyehhhh

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: skitter

Elbirn/ofrhz/tris is like my never-scum tier here
Enigma/insomnia/invisibility are like likely town and def don't want to visit until we get several flips and things are obviously borked
Volxen/Baezu still haven't done enough but just kinda feel town - mayybe scum here
MariaR couuulldd be town just axiomatically reading the game wrong/differently than me, but I also still feel like fairly good odds of scum, haven't liked anything she's said this game
similar feelings about Yes Mafia

roster... idk I still want to townread him but he's kinda a question mark with my latest game state review. the hop from skitter to tris felt unnatural, I agree with Enigma