Open 754: Fire and Ice (Game Over) Fire Mafia wins.

[pinturicchio]

Whoops sorry for being late, I had a looooooong day yesterday.

You know, there's a player who, in my eyes, is always scum.

VOTE: Ceejayvinoya

Nice playing with you again, vivi.

[pinturicchio]

Why not nice playing again with me? :<

I played with you my last game and I'm going to play with you my next game; I haven't played with vivi for some time, so it was a "long time no see" kind of thing.

It's always a plessure playing with you, which has been more times that you could know

[pinturicchio]

Of course I meant pleasure and my bad english striked once more.

[pinturicchio]

Whoops sorry for being late, I had a looooooong day yesterday.

You know, there's a player who, in my eyes, is always scum.

VOTE: Ceejayvinoya

Nice playing with you again, vivi.

Hey Pintu! Nice playing with you again too

Sorry for what happened back on vanilla 8-ball

Hope we can get along this time

Hey don't apologize, I played like shit back there. We're surely getting along as we always do!

[pinturicchio]

As long as you don't fakeclaim a guilty, you can do whatever you want

[pinturicchio]

Hey Allo, you're not scumreading Vedith yet, what's wrong with you

[pinturicchio]

Maybe that means he's scum now?

[pinturicchio]

Pintu maybe but I want more.

You want more from me? Oh Vedith, I thought you would never ask

[pinturicchio]

Yes!
Because now if I'm Scum Im killing you tonight no take backsies

This is town Vedith.

Now we can work together.

[pinturicchio]

VOTE: Allomancer

It's a fine vote

[pinturicchio]

Clemency is getting replaced I really like him

And speaking of likeable players, where's doctor worm?

[pinturicchio]

Clemency is getting replaced I really like him

And speaking of likeable players, where's doctor worm?

how do you like dr worm?

I read Merchant's Daughter and I laughed at every single post of Dr. Worm. Also, if you know how to read between lines, you could see he had pretty good reads too. Wasn't he the only one suspecting Nancy at some point?

[pinturicchio]

Clemency is getting replaced I really like him

And speaking of likeable players, where's doctor worm?

how do you like dr worm?

I read Merchant's Daughter and I laughed at every single post of Dr. Worm. Also, if you know how to read between lines, you could see he had pretty good reads too. Wasn't he the only one suspecting Nancy at some point?

everyone suspected nancy pretty early on. i don't find his posts funny, just obnoxious.

I clearly said "at some point"; that means at any point of the game, not the begining, so I don't understand the lowkey discredit of my comment there. And you not finding it funny it's ok; you asked me why I liked him, I just told you.

[pinturicchio]

Ah but am I town or scum?

Why did the chicken vote Allomancer?

[pinturicchio]

I had high expectations of my own Dr. Worm's nickname; I was not let down

[pinturicchio]

Lol Allo wasn't even close to L-1. His claim is townie in that case, since I expect scum being more self aware and checking how many votes there are on them.

UNVOTE: Allomancer

[pinturicchio]

I thought he was 'cause you said he was. Why not believe he thought he was? He claimed, after all.

[pinturicchio]

Lol Allo wasn't even close to L-1. His claim is townie in that case, since I expect scum being more self aware and checking how many votes there are on them.

UNVOTE: Allomancer

That's a VERY bad logic there.

What other choices did Allo have? Claim Doctor and be killed by the other scum team? Claim Scum outright? Or claim any other PR that doesn't even exist in this setup?? I mean, seriously; what other claim would you expect from ANYONE, including the Doctor themselves??

I would've expected a "I'm at L-3, jackass. I'm not claiming". So before you call my logic bad, you can always ask.

[pinturicchio]

Well that just shows the state of the game then which is pretty tragic.

I don't believe it though.
If Scum were more aware there would they not fake claim VT for credit knowing that it's not L1?

As I explained in my previous post, I wouldn't expect a claim at all. I would expect something like "I'm not at L-1" or not say anything at all on that matter. Why claim?

[pinturicchio]

Yes, I was expecting that too from a town Allo.

Yeah, could be. So you think he claimed as scum... Why?

[pinturicchio]

Why not?
As Eyes said, there's nothing else to claim this game.

Look at what Allo has done this game

Self vote joke
Nothing
Nothing
Nothing
Unvoted
Nothing
Claimed

Allo is a player that throws round suspicion. Decides who looks scummy early on and goes with me.
Not here.

Remember that I agree with you in all of those things since I was the one who called him out for not scumreading you on early game. I'm asking why he claims VT as scum instead of saying "I'm at L-3 jackass", not claiming VT instead of something else.

What I mean is: what do you think happened: did scum!Allo knew he was at L-3 but decided to claim VT; or did scum!Allo thought he was at L-1 and claimed?

If you think the former is what happened (which is the one I understand you believe), why do you think he claims VT instead of dismising your request?

[pinturicchio]

So before you call my logic bad, you can always ask

I'm sorry if you thought that was offensive to you. I assure you I meant not to brush on your feelings. I was just explaining why it wasn't the case from my own PoV. Nothing against you in person, my friend.

More than offensive, I've seen that this game in particular has some kind of heat that I'm not fond with (I think GrandWazoo calling the chicken scum was a little harsh, for example, iirc). I know it wasn't intended, I just wanted to note that there's a kind of aggressiveness that isn't necesarry. But thanks for apologizing!

[pinturicchio]

For town credit?
I don't know but I don't like him as town.

The way I see it now, we have a VT claim.
Allo never claims VT as doc there so we either lose a VT or get Scum (most likely) with this lynch.

So if we lynch Scum here it forced the single Scum to look for other Scum.
If we lynch a town then it forces both Scum teams to look for Scum.

Allo is giving 0 effort or content into the game.
Mechanically and read wise this is the best lynch.

In Allo's situation, do you think he thought claiming at L-3 would give him towncred instead of just dismissing? I don't know, it seems too simple.

I agree with you in that he's a good lynch, I just think that the claim thing is something to take in consideration. But don't you think there are plenty of players who qualify in the "giving 0 effort or content into the game" category? Like, I think I qualified into it until this discussion. Also, you're not considering that Allo could be giving 0 effort or content because of IRL reasons, and you should know what I mean by this.

[pinturicchio]

I'd like more to be happening in the game to be able to get better Scum reads.

I feel the exact same way, but I haven't contributed much myself so I can't complain.

[pinturicchio]

I posted 9 posts from Friday to Monday. Granted, it was a rough weekend, but my activity tends to be higher when I'm invested.

Anyway, I'll start my townbloc and make the scumteams shiver. Well only the firey ones, I'll make the others melt.

[pinturicchio]

roster's vote on BEF is more valid than BEF's vote on roster, seeing that BEF's vote was just a "pressure" vote and roster's vote is him calling out BEF for voting without good reason.

It was a pressure vote and a vote to get things moving along. And it seemed to get things moving along.

I knew that it would make me an easy target and I expected a wagon to form, a sort of scum bait if you will...

That being said I guess I would rather sacrifice myself in the name of progress the game than being tortured trying to be active in a stagnant game.

More than calling out BEF because of a pressure vote, I would call him out for saying it was thanks to his vote that the game got a better pace, like a martyr. I don't believe that's the case, it was Vedith who made that possible.

[pinturicchio]

VOTE: Eyes without a face

[pinturicchio]

VOTE: Eyes without a face

So I'm not allowed to have my own thoughts? I am assuming this is because I stated a TR on BEF. Otherwise I don't even know what's this about.

That was strike three, and it's not because the TR itself, obviously.

[pinturicchio]

So, what were the previous 2 strikes, and what exactly triggered you in my post if it wasn't the TR itself?

Strike one was the whole page for yourself. You don't look like a silly player; even if you explicitly said "I should try doing it", it felt like Mark Zuckerberg trying to act like a human being.

Strike two was the tone of some posts: 158 felt like buddying (and since I don't consider you a goofy kind of guy, that post doesn't seem like following Vedith's townbloc joke); 191 followed by 216 it's really odd. First, you join a wagon without giving much reasons other than "let's see where this goes". That alone is not enough to be scummy, since joining a wagon is pretty common. But then, when I give my reasoning for unvoting, you call me out for doing it? Seems inconsistent, joining a wagon with not many reasons but calling someone out for leaving the wagon; it's like you wanted a lynch for the sake of it and not because you thought Allo was a good lynch.

And strike three was your previous post. You said "this is probably a town post. Scum probably wouldn't want to sacrifice themselves or pretend to be willing to". The double use of "probably" shows that you're not taking stances, or in other words, fencesitting. Is it or isn't a town post? Would scum do that or not? You're not saying it, you're just saying that the post could be from town, and that seems like trying to apeace BEF who clearly wrote that post to get townread.

So that's it. Any questions?

[pinturicchio]

266 is actually reasons. Pintu-town.

There's no doubt about that. What do you think about the case itself?

[pinturicchio]

So that's it. Any questions?

Yes. Have meta dived me? I have 4 finished games on MS and I only won the first of them.. the one that I got lynched in D1 in. My reads are generally bad even when I'm close to certain (proven by me tunneling a townie for an entire game and rage quitting when I couldn't get them lynched, yet every lynch the town had was on town still).

So, excuse me when I try to boost my confidence by stating my own reads but asking for someone else's opinion. Someone I know that is. Vedith was with me in the last game (at least the last game) and I kinda think he is town in this game (he was scum in that last game).

Anyway, your case is understood. I think I can appreciate it for now, but liking it is another matter.

P.S. Why would I buddy you when I don't even know you. Isn't buddying meant to be towards strong players?

I think you were buddying Vedith, not me! By following Vedith and asking him "do you think this guy should be in our townbloc?" was like trying to be on good terms with someone who knows you.

I haven't meta dived you, but I read the game were you realized Slaxx was a Doctor and outed him that's a pretty solid read if you ask me. Do you think that, if I meta dive you, I'll get a different perspective about you?

[pinturicchio]

Both are lazy wagons, but both could flip scum. BEF, wanna work together or are you kinda defeated and/or not invested enough to avoid your lynch?

[pinturicchio]

I mean, of course you want to, I meant to ask if have the energy/time to do it. I'm asking you to cooperate in doing a wagonomics kind of analysis. Being a multiball is difficult to know who's town by votes on both leading wagons, but we can definitely get some insight on who could be scum in them. It won't be easy since either you or Allo are flipped, but it could help

[pinturicchio]

I wasn't trying to play 4D Chess or anything but after I made post 162, I thought this would be a good post for scum to get a wagon going. A vote on me after that post would not bring too much attention since the post was moderately scummy scum could feel safe jumping in early. That's why I think there is at least 1 scum in the first few votes on my wagon, ofr, roster and ceejay.

That's where my head is at right now.

Oh, I differ. Your wagon was formed when Allomancer's wagon began to lose traction; if your wagon formed right after you posted 162, I would agree, but the chicken's vote on you was pretty reactive and that could go either way. ofrhz voted before you posted 162, and ceejay I don't really know.

Instead, there are these two players who voted you and consolidated your wagon and made you a viable lynch: maadneet, who says that his gut's "been pegging BEF as scum for a while now" and to "give Allo a chance to put effort in"; and Springtrap, that only said that it sounds right voting you, making you the leading wagon over Allo.

The timing of this two votes is off: maadneet says he has you as scum for a while now, why not voting back then instead of doing it when your wagon is becoming a real thing? Why not doing it after 162, instead doing it now? Why doing it after I made a valuable case on a player, yet preffers to vote the option that is rising up as a viable lynch? Springtrap, on the other hand, has been in roster's wagon, which was the first leading wagon of the game with five votes, and now made you the leading wagon with his vote, without any kind of reasoning. I don't mind the lack of reasoning for joining a wagon, but two makes it suspicious.

Now, let's see maadneet's contributions to the game, shall we?

UNVOTE:

Ok, I've read through the thread.

@Springtrap haven't seen much from you, what are your reads so far?

@BrightEyedFish and @ceejayvinoya, any new reads since the Allo wagon?

I count 6, not 5.

my gut's been pegging BEF as scum for a while now
VOTE: BrightEyedFish

allo's been scummy but my gut says to give him a chance to put effort in

And that's it. Springtrap's contributions are almost the same thing, but at least he admitted that the game hasn't clicked for him.

So in conclusion, I tried to make an Eyes without a Face wagon going, but it was blatantly ignored, when it's clearly one of the biggest pieces of content on this game. It could mean that a) I hit the nail on the head, b) people didn't agree with it and just kept going with their own thoughts, or c) scum is taking advantage on the lazy gamestate and are just pushing the most convenient wagons, and Eyes' wagon didn't get the traction needed to get a lynch there.

I think it's a combination of the three of them, but I think maadneet falls in the letter c). So BEF, wanna follow there?

VOTE: maadneet

[pinturicchio]

Love the comparison, hate to be the middle child myself

[pinturicchio]

Goddamnit Allo

[pinturicchio]

Roster, I've posted two long posts about other two other players. What do you think about them?

[pinturicchio]

And Allo voted Eyes, one of my cases, versus voting the other leading wagon which would possibly save his ass

[pinturicchio]

You're judging a player that explicitly laughed at people reading him because of his lack of activity.

[pinturicchio]

Ok this game isn't going to get better clearly. I tried like three or four times engaging with people, even with the leading wagon player, and silence speaks for itself. Tomorrow we all get our heads out of our asses and play this game decently.

VOTE: Allomancer

[pinturicchio]

Talk me about maadveet and EWAF, whoever wants to

[pinturicchio]

I made cases on both of them before the day ended yesterday. I think one of them is scum. Which one is?

[pinturicchio]

Maad.

Agreed. And our fellow Worm agrees too. This is starting to look better.

[pinturicchio]

No VC tonight, on a date and also just got offered a new job, may have to go down to 1 VC per day for a little bit.

Congrats brass, I'm really happy for you

[pinturicchio]

I'll leave my ego behind for a minute and say that if everyone agrees on scum!BEF I'll vote him, but I really want s'more comments on why BEF and not maadneet, whose contributions have been atrocious. ofrhz was scumreading both BEF and maad, and reasoning behind BEF seems to be "join me on this wagon NOW" more than anything else.

[pinturicchio]

VOTE: maadneet

[pinturicchio]

I think BEF could be scum and I gave my reasoning behind that. My problem is how comfortable people seem to be towards scumreading BEF without dialogue and some counterpoints. We already mislynched Allo and everyone was pretty damn sure he was scum. Coming into D2 voting the same guy who was being wagoned on D1 seems like not only lazy, but awful town.

Vedith, be good town and tell me why BEF is scum. I'm not being condescending or anything here, I just want to here your points 'cause I don't remember them.

[pinturicchio]

Forgot to say: true that BEF seems to be looking for the ice scum instead of scum as a whole, but his point on ofrhz' partner is maybe the best thing he has on scum so ice scum>no scum.

[pinturicchio]

OK Dr Worm, I can feel your enthusiasm

I love his enthusiasm

[pinturicchio]

Omg hi skitter! And happy birthday to maadneet! UNVOTE: maadneet[/vote]

[pinturicchio]

I'll follow my instinct here instead of big cases that make the only PR claim

VOTE: GrandWazoo

[pinturicchio]

What? I don't get the "if we lynch in the fire mafia" thing you said

[pinturicchio]

I'm sorry Vedith I swear I know I'm the dumb here but could you explain it with context and everything? I really don't get it

[pinturicchio]

Ok ok got it thank you both!

[pinturicchio]

I have a counterpoint tho: if we kill the second ice climber today, the fire nation will absolutely attack the doc. If we focus on a fire scum today, there's a chance of the doc surviving since if both scumteams target the doc, the doc survives, so maybe they won't bother killing maad.

[pinturicchio]

Scuzie? Babadabupi?

[pinturicchio]

Take that back immediately. Dr. Worm is a national treasure

[pinturicchio]

Brassherald thought about how, despite only having one sibling, he is still somehow the middle child.

I can't believe I didn't notice this before, fucking brilliant

[pinturicchio]

DR WARM WHAT is PINTUCHEERIO IN YOUR HEART????

I fucking love the fact you tried to communicate in his language

[pinturicchio]

I have to say I’m really surprised by Vedith scum.

I'm not surprised at all. I had no wim to push him, but I fucking knew it

[pinturicchio]

Hey Allo, you're not scumreading Vedith yet, what's wrong with you

cuz he's not scummy

Maybe that means he's scum now?

Fuck Allo, we had him in page 5

[pinturicchio]

Right now Scum are most likely all among Allo BEF worm springtrap maad and Grand.
As it stands I don't lynch outside if these 5.

So! This is the most important post I found about Vedith, since I'm looking for associations. The living players:
maadneet, Ceejayvinoya, Pinturicchio, BrightEyedFish, insomnia, ‪Dr Worm, rosterfoster

maadneet, vivi, BEF and me out of the equation.

The interesting thing about the post I'm quoting is that our beloved Dr. Worm was a townread from Vedith, but out of the blue he says he doesn't lynch outside of those five players, including Worm. If Vedith tried to distance from his partner, Dr. Worm is most likely the partner.

Now, when I did my case on EWAF, Vedith jumped with a "Eyes is town" and didn't comment about that at all, and Eyes had some gross interactions with Vedith early game that could be taken as "town following a townread" or "scum scummying with his scumpartner". I'm inclined to believe the latter.

[pinturicchio]

Eyes, Rooster, Maad (if not CC), Pintu and Worm town.

Actually, at this stage it makes sense to remove a night kill since I'm confident in the town section.
If I'm wrong on a town, it's worm, but I don't think so.

VOTE: Ceej

UNVOTE: Ceej

I want to think first.

Also I was thinking about Orfhz. When we were Scum in donner party they distanced from me.
Same with Elsa and Orfhz, they distanced or just ignored.

I think that if Ceej is Scum they are from the team of 2.

So two more comments:

1. Vedith called Dr. Worm town again, but then says "if I'm wrong on town it's worm". I now think that what Vedith was trying to do is to set a mislynch for later when needed, like an ace under his sleeve.

2. Vedith voting Vivi, then saying that Vivi is probably from the team of 2 and that he would rather lynch the remaining ice mafia, and then changing his mind when I told him that the doc would survive with both mafia teams alive, and never go back to Vivi... Vivi could be Vedith's partner. The "Vivi is probably from the team of 2" seems like a cheeky scumfuck comment to me

[pinturicchio]

By the way, if someone starts having doubts about my alignment because I'm posting too much: I've been consistent during the entire game as the more engaged player, to the point of hammering a player I was townreading because of frustration with the gamestate. If you think I'm trying to derail town to a mislynch with hyper posting, guess what? Why would I do this instead of laying back and let you guys kill each other, why bother if even the doctor protected me?

So follow my fucking lead. If you don't agree with me, go on, give me your reasons and I'm all ears, but we haven't lynched even one fucking mafia and we're still winning, so let's take the opportunity.

[pinturicchio]

I'm too frustrated with lazy townies in this game. Impossible to solve the game if the town is doing exactly the same what scum is doing

[pinturicchio]

I'll read the game again (it's short enough to do that), recognize two other fellow townies along with maadneet and I'll just quicklynch whoever's outside of those 4 players. Pre reread, the three would be Vivi, insomnia and Dr. Worm, but more to come.

[pinturicchio]

No, I'm voting now

VOTE: insomnia

[pinturicchio]

You're really taking Dr. Worm's playstyle seriously?

The way of reading Worm is reading his reads and nothing else. If there's a scummy agenda behind them, he's scum. If his reads are good, he's town. Problem is, in a multiball, that's not easy to see.

Maad's got a point, but I see that differentiation in two ways: one, Worm was gutreading Vedith instead of having a good read on him; and two, Worm knows Vedith from Merchant's Daughter, so maybe it was a way of calling his attention.

Now, it could also mean what Maad is implying: calls his partner town in an obnoxious way when Vedith was being townread already.

But! I don't judge Worm for thinking Vedith was town. I thought that in the begining. But the way insomnia is trying to get the attention on Dr. Worm going confirms my suspicions. He's asking the mod if the scumteam(s) have daytalk in order to see if Vedith gave Dr Worm the instruction to call him town; but the real intention behind that question is trying to town himself up.

Join me in lynching scum, please.

[pinturicchio]

VOTE: insomnia just to be clear

[pinturicchio]

I'm glad someone else is doing some effort

[pinturicchio]

I'm quite sure that insomnia is scum and I think BEF will flip green, but I've been ignored before and I honestly don't care anymore

[pinturicchio]

VOTE: BrightEyedFish

[pinturicchio]

Vivi, I'm pretty sure you're scum, hope the other remaining scum shoots you. I don't think BEF flips scum honestly, but we'll have a better PoE tomorrow. I already saved BEF once, I don't think I could save him a second time

[pinturicchio]

Fucking called it on D1. No lynching today is getting me nightkilled and I would rather be alive today to win the game

[pinturicchio]

Pintu with the greatest of respect we have had 3 mislynches in a row while you’ve been the most townread player, managing to not get night killed and yesterday you hammered BEF despite opening thinking he was town, which could get well have lead to the possibility of 2-1-1 and virtually no way to win (Scum could at the very least force a draw if they wanted to). To cap it all off you are assuming that you are conf town and advocating the mechanically inferior approach.

If that doesn’t make me question my town read on you I don’t know what will.

Now shut up and vote no lynch.

I've not been nightkilled probably because the scumteams avoided both killing me. The argument of the 3 mislynches is fair, but not correct; I hammered both times saying that Allo and BEF were town and that you should listen to me, and I was correct on EWAF/insomnia. So not only I'm the most obvious town in the game, I should also be listened for having correct reads. So no, don't question your townread, there's no reason to it. And I'm not advocating the mechanically inferior approach: I want some discussion before finishing this day, 'cause now that there's only one scum faction, I'm getting nightkilled and I want to come to a conclusion before dying, 'cause as you said, there were already 3 mislynches and I was townreading 2 of those 3, so I don't trust the rest of my town members to win this game.

[pinturicchio]

BEF lynch was inevitable. This town is a chore to work with.

what's your reads pintu?

I still think you're the remaining scum. And the AtE you threw before the day ended doesn't help: I don't always scumread you, I townread you in Jungle Republic. Guess what: that was a multi ball, and you were scum. I've seen plenty of playstyle differences here compared to the games I usually scumread you wrongly, so now I think I wrongly townread you at the begining of this game. Reevaluating is nice, you know? But don't worry, I'll take my time, I'll read the game or some relevant ISOs, and I will read some other recent games of yours to see if this playstyle thing I see here is some kind of new approach you've been applying.

[pinturicchio]

@vivi work with me while I do my own thing. From your perspective, who's the remaining scum?

[pinturicchio]

Really! Wow, surprised by your answer I must say

[pinturicchio]

^Don’t like that post.

Ceejay what do you think about no-lynching today? And please tell me why.

You are coming my biggest scumread really really fast.

I didn't expect that answer 'cause I thought he would go into you since it's the easy lynch from a scum perspective. I think Vivi is the remaining scum, so I thought he would say you were the remaining scum. Instead, he says Succint, which I think it's less likely the easiest path to take as scum.

[pinturicchio]

Fair point. I'll just shut up until I reread the game, I'm not being useful

[pinturicchio]

I think you're right, roster.

VOTE: No Lynch

[pinturicchio]

Gg roster!! If you killed Succint I would've voted Vivi so you got it in the bag.

Even if town played shit, both Vedith and you avoided being lynched and did the correct kills, so good job!

[pinturicchio]

I mean, you changed your style, right? Do you agree with that? I swear I didn't want to scumread you