micro 858: silver 3 (ended game)

[Ankamius]

rip me I guess

[Ankamius]

idk

scum having a watcher and a bus driver sounds a bit ridiculous unless they maybe don't have multitasking while they're both alive(?)

[Ankamius]

idk

this setup is bonkers enough that it could be a thing

I just don't think both can be used the same night if it's an actual thing

[Ankamius]

I'm just going to go and claim VT here.
Just do the lynch if you don't believe it since it's no loss to town.

Its obvious that trying to have fun during games is just something that can't be done weather I try to Scum hunt or not.

[Ankamius]

Vedith was gambiting \o/

[Ankamius]

:V

[Ankamius]

My brain is saying we should keep draco alive but my heart says he's just the most likely scum here

[Ankamius]

It's anukets skitter all over again

[Ankamius]

I would say it's very likely jungle is legit yes

[Ankamius]

Let me do some crunching first please

[Ankamius]

This game night just be locked regardless of who's scum tbh

[Ankamius]

VOTE: Vedith

Sure, this is fine

Draco on jungle please

[Ankamius]

I'm pretty sure the watcher is genuine

[Ankamius]

I'm pretty sure the watcher is genuine

Ew

what's ew

it makes more sense for it to exist with my role than otherwise

[Ankamius]

oh dear.

[Ankamius]

we can sort gemini tomorrow I think

[Ankamius]

...:/

[Ankamius]

case me pleeeeeeeease

[Ankamius]

uhhhhhh why am I claiming again

[Ankamius]

To help scum, of course.

your write

[Ankamius]

haha you get an edit mark

et tu

[Ankamius]

u2

if you believe I am conftown

then what's the problem with me not claiming

[Ankamius]

about 90%

[Ankamius]

@Mod: V/LA until 4/27

it shouldn't drastically affect my ability to be here but I can't guarantee I'll be here mentally

[Ankamius]

:D

[Ankamius]

No more claims are needed actually

[Ankamius]

the game is solved

[Ankamius]

let me double check something first

[Ankamius]

maybe draco is the best lynch

[Ankamius]

Gemini

Do you have a roleblock available tonight?

[Ankamius]

The game is literally solved if you do.

[Ankamius]

If you have the ability to block, block whichever of draco and vedith we don't lynch

Jungle will be investigating me and I will be targeting you.

I don't think this ever loses as long as Starwing is confirmed to not have killed last night

[Ankamius]

Perfect.

Who do you prefer lynched today?

[Ankamius]

I think scum have 2 prs to nerf my role :V

[Ankamius]

I think draco is higher scum equity tbh

[Ankamius]

VOTE: Draco

[Ankamius]

When was the last time slaxx paid any attention to the thread?

[Ankamius]

Enjoy your edit mark

[Ankamius]

this day phase feels a lot longer than it actually is

[Ankamius]

what do you mean

[Ankamius]

with what though

the game overall
the solve
the roles

what

[Ankamius]

Is it because of my role not being public info gemini

[Ankamius]

It's role stuff u2

[Ankamius]

He claimed watcher

[Ankamius]

Ugh might need a change of track

let me think

[Ankamius]

I'm thinking whether to claim or not

[Ankamius]

Is there any way that jungle and Gemini are BOTH scum?

I got played like a fiddle if that is the case

[Ankamius]

Or I guess the better way to say that is I played myself like a fiddle

[Ankamius]

Oh it's confirmed 2 mafia LOL

[Ankamius]

Nice

Gemini is conftown

[Ankamius]

Gemini cannot kill.

Jungle cannot stop actions and is neighborized.

[Ankamius]

Jungle is VT covering for me

[Ankamius]

No

I have two investigative roles

One has a neighborize attached to it

[Ankamius]

That essentially is it

I can see if someone can kill
I can see if someone can stop night actions and strongwilled neighborize them

first was on Gemini
Second was on Jungle

Both were negative results and Jungle joined my neighborhood

[Ankamius]

Check the set up notes lol

And no it doesn't, I was trying to make jungle the nk target because vt

[Ankamius]

I didn't want to give the deception away since my role is... kind of important :V

[Ankamius]

Probably yeah

Now that it's confirmed 5v1 it's obviously jungle

[Ankamius]

VOTE: jungle

[Ankamius]

jungle why were you inactive for most of the day

[Ankamius]

jungle why were you inactive for most of the day

I've said everything I've needed to say about who the scum are.

Why is it inherently inferior to lynch to today?

[Ankamius]

you*

[Ankamius]

you block whichever of {Vedith, JM} isn't lynched today

I'll check Draco

[Ankamius]

like

even if you don't think I'm necessarily town, that will, in the worst case scenario, narrow the game down to exactly two slots

and mine is literally confirmable via neighborhood

[Ankamius]

technically the other two thirds of my role isn't confirmable but :V

[Ankamius]

Starwing it's more of a thing about what exactly would I be trying to achieve here by claiming the way I did as a neighborizer lol

The other two pieces of my role make some sense as a scum role but neighborizing on top of that is ehhhhhh

[Ankamius]

Jungle is like 80% the last scum here due to the disinterest

Draco is about 15%

Vedith 5%

[Ankamius]

I'm pretty certain the watcher is real, it makes sense for why roster would have a night action at all

[Ankamius]

Jungle I told you what I need already

A reason that keeping you alive is better than vedith or draco

Because from my perspective, the game is a town win regardless of who we lynch

[Ankamius]

edit mark

[Ankamius]

Draco is scum.

[Ankamius]

VOTE: Draco

[Ankamius]

The game is literally a 1v1 between us now

Draco did not mention any ability to kill when I claimed that's what the nature of my results are so it's not a false positive

[Ankamius]

Btw I am just going to note

Every single town PR has had complexity and multiple parts to it.

You can see my claim is genuine because of Jungle not saying any of my claim was wrong (meaning I DID neighborize them and their turnaround on Gemini at the start of day two is strong evidence of knowing about the innocent result). I never once was called out by them for fakeclaiming, instead I was outright called and treated as conftown by them until the very end.

Note that this exact trend is NOT KNOWN during day one because our only points of inference from there is rosters double role and merrys single role. It's reasonable to expect that roster has a role that is not indicative of what town has in the setup because the night action is very weak and the vengeful is just as likely to be antitown than protown.

Now.

Draco claimed a watcher. We can believe this is the entirety of his role because he was pushing so hard for fullclaims towards the middle and end of yesterday. Now look at Merry And Pippins role. These are very interestingly similar are they not?

[Ankamius]

Vengeful + Redirected Detector
Jailkeeper + One-Shot Doctor
Kill Ability Detector + Action Failing Ability Detector Strongwilled Neighborizer
Named Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie

vs

Bus Driver
Watcher

sounds really elegant doesn't it

The cop role can only get a positive on town for the second role, which helps potentially disrupt the two from working together despite the neighborize ability (ESPECIALLY if the neighborize was his driven away) which helps keep the two roles in check

having two strong PRs is kept in check by the vengeful potentially removing a mislynch, the bus driver causing people's actions to be moved around (with the vengeful there to make this public info), and the watcher to catch one of the uses of the role.

[Ankamius]

geminitwin12 died in the night!

welcome to micro 858! you are a

town oligarch

! each night, you may visit a player to protect them from any kill at night and prevent their night actions from working, should they perpetrate any. additionally, once, at night, you may appoint another player as Sovereign Safety Manager, protecting them from the first kill targeting them; this is effective on the night you use it and the protection will not be spent if the SSM is protected by another source when a kill attempt targets them.

Who still thinks a watcher and bus driver don't work as scum here?

You cannot use this argument anymore, Jungle proves via their actions towards the start of the day that I claimed my Gemini result near immediately to them. Draco and Jungle together PROVED my neighborhood ability is genuine.

I originally was going to lie about my role and Jungle claimed my result for me while locktowning me. That is strong evidence of us talking together in the neighborhood and me claiming there is more to my role than the neighborhood.

This is enough proof that I have an investigative role, so scum have an investigative regardless of who is scum here. This type of reasoning no longer works.

[Ankamius]

Right about what

[Ankamius]

Now I'm confused

[Ankamius]

eventful game

[Ankamius]

My understanding of Ank's town play, as described by Ank is that she tries to manipulate the game state in such a manner that her town reads find their way to the scum reads that ank thinks are correct

This was not the style we got this game. D1, she posted one read list and a couple of questions and then made this "oopsy" post at the start of day 2 which pings me in retrospect.

Spoiler:

I am caught up!

Merry Pippin is town! I believe the Pippin head has been quite transparently town, and I do not believe the Merry head has been playing to a scum agenda so far.

Jingle Medicine is town! I do not have too many thoughts on this slot, but some specific posts have given me a strong basis for a townread. I also believe that there is enough background focus on that slot for scum looking to work around them to be a viable strategy.
Draco Lucky is probably town! I believe the way both heads entered the game is more likely to be from a town mindset, and I have not seen an issue with their content that would indicate they are pushing an agenda so far.
Vedith is probably town! His tone is believable, and I do not think that scum would have blatantly lighthearted content like this for so long in the game!

Iconeum is somewhat town! This read is shaky, but I thought that the way he handled the rosterfoster case showed he believed in it. I also believe that the wagon on him was interestingly fast, although that admittedly does not change my read around very much.

StarwingBeauvoi is the slot I am least sure about! I do not have a townread nor a scumread on them.

GeminiTwin12 is somewhat scum! The only things I have gotten reads out of for this slot is from a couple of posts, mostly the tone.

rosterfoster is probably scum! I admit, the scumread mostly comes from his hop onto the Iconeum wagon. However, that vote was strange enough that I find it hard to believe it was natural.

VOTE: rosterfoster

I am quite embarrassed! =(

You saw me play on that account in Catloaves

firstly, I play on that account differently than I do on this account specifically because my playstyle is really uncommon and it would be kind of hard to keep a secret alt secret if I used all the same tricks and style choices that I do on this account.d

secondly, my strategy and tactics change to fit the game. what I stated about my town play is ultimately the goal of what I try to do; the exact method changes from game to game and in this specific game, I was trying to get into RCs head which was very blatantly unsuccessful if you go back and look

my playstyle depends a lot on my approach and my approach failing causes a lot of problems for my overall interest in the game (which really didn't get helped by the fact that alacrity is a walling/logic-focused alt which is always hard for me anyways).

my d1 ISO really isn't indicative anyways, plus why would I replace in and immediately apathy out when I'm in a scumteam with RC and skitter?

[Ankamius]

Her instinct during D2 is again very passive. Ank fence sits on her reads, and makes no moves to push the game in the direction they prefer.

Spoiler:

idk

scum having a watcher and a bus driver sounds a bit ridiculous unless they maybe don't have multitasking while they're both alive(?)

idk

this setup is bonkers enough that it could be a thing

I just don't think both can be used the same night if it's an actual thing

My brain is saying we should keep draco alive but my heart says he's just the most likely scum here

It's anukets skitter all over again

VOTE: Vedith

Sure, this is fine

Draco on jungle please

it was because

the game was literally solved

It was literally ANTITOWN to say too much and risk giving away the deception

and when I have the ability to solve the game mechaniclly, I'm going to play to solve the game mechanically. Nonreviewed singlehandedly proves that because I abandoned my really strong reads to play the mechanics game and ended up wasting time lynching all the herpaderp town fakeclaimers before scum lost because the setup was broken.

[Ankamius]

This absolutely contradicts ank's later claim. I wish I had seen it sooner.

Spoiler:

Gemini

Do you have a roleblock available tonight?

The game is literally solved if you do.

If you have the ability to block, block whichever of draco and vedith we don't lynch

Jungle will be investigating me and I will be targeting you.

I don't think this ever loses as long as Starwing is confirmed to not have killed last night

um

the original plan was for jungle to absorb the NK while we clear two people

That's kinda what a neighborhood allows you to do

[Ankamius]

That essentially is it

I can see if someone can kill
I can see if someone can stop night actions and strongwilled neighborize them

first was on Gemini
Second was on Jungle

Both were negative results and Jungle joined my neighborhood

At first I thought this was a likely town role because of the strangeness of the double investigative, but it always had to be scum.

Think about the possible setups

Jailkeeper
Watcher
traffic guru with venge kill
neighborizer + kill check (supposedly)
Bus driver

Scum has two prs and one of them bus, driver, is strong, but countered by confirmed!town traffic guru and jailkeeper. The neighborizor ction is confirmable and nothing about the role makes it red checkable by any of the other roles, so there is a good balance. One role can be countered pretty heavily but is strong. The other can't be countered, but is weaker. The utility is entirely based in the ability of the scum to use the neighborize to their benefit.

Consider if ank is town

Jailkeeper + traffic guru with venge + neighborizer that can check for the ability to roleblock + a check on the ability to kill vs watcher and bus driver

How does this make sense? The bus driver would not only be countered by the traffic guru and jailkeeper but also by both investigative actions from ank's slot, and the scum!watcher would be checkable by ank's slot, and the jail keeper's slot. The watcher ability, if it got a result, would have a 1/3 chance of pushing scum to lynch the venge slot (bad for scum), while a false positive from town!ank would also result in the free venge for town. It's simply too much town power + the ability for prs to confirm one another

This game is clearly more balanced with town watcher rather than town whatever ank is claiming.

incorrect.

1. Town only has two mislynches by default and if the vengeful is killed, most of the time it will EAT one of them. This can easily put town into MyLo on DAY TWO, which is absolutely insane for most setups. Town needs a backup plan for this to not singlehandedly break the game in favor for scum,

ESPECIALLY WITH SCUM BEING ABLE TO BUS DRIVE THEIR NIGHT ACTION TARGET TO AVOID DOCTORS AND WATCHERS

, which ensures that the scumteam can kill the strongest town N1.
2. The amount of power has with my role being town and yours being scum makes a lot of sense.

2a. scum can busdrive the jailkeep away from their NK target (which I would expect 99% of the time most scumteams would be using with a bus drive on N1). This puts doubt on the JK claim and/or the Doctor claim.
2b. the vengeful's night action is not likely to have any impact on the game since just knowing that somebody had a redirect used on them is not exactly very useful to the game unless another PR (namely only Gemini since I would know I was redirected) also targeted the same target. This is... not exactly very likely!
2c. my role has two parts, one of which is gated by a false guilty target (the vengeful), and the other of which can ONLY get a guilty on town (gemini). the neighborizer being strong-willed means that my claims of being redirected are inherently suspicious, especially if my result was redirected off the target I neighborized.
2d. Effectively,

the game is based around town's power roles being able to paint a pretty good picture of what's going on with enough context, but the individual parts are not confirmable.

Town having a Jailkeeper+OneShotDoctor and a double investigative is really strong for a 9p game,

that's why town was also given an anti-town role in the vengeful and scum were given the watcher in order to have very good odds of detecting at least one PR on night one.

The town was ALSO purposely designed in a way that a massclaim wouldn't singlehandedly break the game since the bus driver screws with results, the watcher helps scum build a narrative to help counter it, the vengeful redirection detector is also sketchy enough to be mislynchable in that scenario, and town is

specifically

designed in a way that makes it very hard to consolidate information accurately since none of it is technically confirmable as town.

So yes, town makes a lot more sense with my role as town over yours.

It fits the design of the game.
It's

REQUIRED

to counter the massive amounts of swing that the vengeful adds to the game if it's lynched D1 and vengekills town.
It's built into the setup that even if something goes wrong, my role is just as likely to even the odds with a really unlucky check as it is to end the game with a lucky check.

Watcher does

NOT

have these same interactions.
Watcher being town here means that the scumteam have the ability to detect two of the three PRs, AND can kill whoever the fuck they want via the bus driver, AND an extra possibility of getting full role info that town would not have via the neighborhood. And town in return gets the JK+Doc, the anti-town vengeful role, and... the ability to catch the bus driver! And every other PR in the game! The ability to be able to out PRs to the town or to the scum neighborizer!

That's absolutely ridiculous and not at all congruent with the rest of the town PRs like my role is.

[Ankamius]

Jungle is like 80% the last scum here due to the disinterest

Draco is about 15%

Vedith 5%

This turnaround doesn't make sense from town. Ank was pretty solidly reading JM as town. Additionally, if ank was town, she would have been motivated to use her neighborize on the person she was most confident was town because hitting scum confirms her as a pr. So JM starts to lurk, just like he did at the end of day 1, and that reverses her top town read? Ank never cared who the lynch was all through d2

I switched to scumreading Jungle on a dime because the sudden burst of effort looked town enough and it made me realize that jungle had said very little despite a reasonably strong start to day 2 (and even later said that they weren't following along with the game when I posted in there that I was suspecting gemini of being a traitor)

I thought at that point the game was an auto-win and I could easily see Jungle realizing the game was an auto-win and just giving up, so I decided that lynching them was the better choice in case it was that specific scenario.

[Ankamius]

Btw I am just going to note

Every single town PR has had complexity and multiple parts to it.

You can see my claim is genuine because of Jungle not saying any of my claim was wrong (meaning I DID neighborize them and their turnaround on Gemini at the start of day two is strong evidence of knowing about the innocent result). I never once was called out by them for fakeclaiming, instead I was outright called and treated as conftown by them until the very end.

Note that this exact trend is NOT KNOWN during day one because our only points of inference from there is rosters double role and merrys single role. It's reasonable to expect that roster has a role that is not indicative of what town has in the setup because the night action is very weak and the vengeful is just as likely to be antitown than protown.

Now.

Draco claimed a watcher. We can believe this is the entirety of his role because he was pushing so hard for fullclaims towards the middle and end of yesterday. Now look at Merry And Pippins role. These are very interestingly similar are they not?

This is all nonsense wifom. Ank is basically trying to meta-read the mod here talking about how all town roles would likely have the same format. I know it's wrong, but it's also not in good faith. It's worse than trying to analyze flavor. If alignment could so easily be determined by roles, we'd see people calling for D1 mass claims in closed games.

@ank what are you basing this meta read on?

schadd's oddball setups, in my experience, are very deliberately made.

very. deliberately. made.

[Ankamius]

Vengeful + Redirected Detector
Jailkeeper + One-Shot Doctor
Kill Ability Detector + Action Failing Ability Detector Strongwilled Neighborizer
Named Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie

vs

Bus Driver
Watcher

sounds really elegant doesn't it

The cop role can only get a positive on town for the second role, which helps potentially disrupt the two from working together despite the neighborize ability (ESPECIALLY if the neighborize was his driven away) which helps keep the two roles in check

having two strong PRs is kept in check by the vengeful potentially removing a mislynch, the bus driver causing people's actions to be moved around (with the vengeful there to make this public info), and the watcher to catch one of the uses of the role.

note how ank is calling a venge shot anti-town =/

That takes serious suspension of disbelief. It's not like a normal vig, either. The person shooting gets to have just watched their mislynch get pushed through and is more likely to be in a position to clearly see who was acting in bad faith

this really should just say it all right here

town has the ability to be town's first mislynch and take away the only other mislynch town has.

and (U2?) is saying that the venge-shot is not anti-town.

[Ankamius]

You cannot use this argument anymore, Jungle proves via their actions towards the start of the day that I claimed my Gemini result near immediately to them. Draco and Jungle together PROVED my neighborhood ability is genuine.

I originally was going to lie about my role and Jungle claimed my result for me while locktowning me. That is strong evidence of us talking together in the neighborhood and me claiming there is more to my role than the neighborhood.

This is enough proof that I have an investigative role, so scum have an investigative regardless of who is scum here. This type of reasoning no longer works.

all this is evidence of is Ank successfully pocketing JM. He also called Ank locktown, but he had no good reason to do so. His bad play yesterday is not a reason to make a bad play today.

you can say I pocketed jungle all you like, the sudden switch on Gemini is still evidence that I

claimed

an innocent result on Gemini early on in the day, and the way we both played after that is pretty significant proof that we were working together mechanically at that point.

this is strong evidence that my role is genuine. I've also already shown that my role is much more elegant for town to have than the watcher.

[Ankamius]

happy birthday vedith!

take the time you need <3

[Ankamius]

I think you're forgetting that the game was autosolved because jungle and I were DECEIVING everybody else

the game was not actually solved once I outed my role

[Ankamius]

well yeah that's what I was trying to do?

I wanted to sort all three slots by pushing you to kill the fake cop lol

[Ankamius]

and yet

town also needs my role in the situation where the vengekill eats both of town's mislynches by itself?

[Ankamius]

...and yet scum have a bus driver to fuck with any solves

[Ankamius]

weren't you arguing for the vengeful not being very anti-town despite the fact that it will cause that scenario 75% of the time that it gets lynched N1 and the scenario we are now in 25% of the time?

[Ankamius]

I'll go into more detail on this tomorrow when I'm less tired

[Ankamius]

what

town having a role that literally deletes a mislynch is antitown

[Ankamius]

scum have a bus driver, therefore they can delete whoever the fuck they want n1 with a much higher than normal odds

combine that with a vengeful that puts the game into mylo on day 2

what part of that is NOT anti-town

[Ankamius]

and you're sitting here telling me that a WATCHER is supposed to balance that? a role that has a check for the kill and potentially SIX ACTIONS?

[Ankamius]

well yeah the setup is swingy

double investigative/neighborizer + jailkeep/doc is broken strong

that's why scum have the ability to fuck with their results
that's why scum have the ability to see what town's PRs are so easily via the watcher
that's why town have an extra slot that's literally there to reduce the amount of night phases there are

and because it's very hard to confirm all these roles directly?

the vengeful doesn't have a good PoE mechanically to shoot in, so it's just as likely to hit one of the town PRs as the scum ones.

the watcher also is less likely to find the vengeful because it's only one of five town actions available,

the town investigative has HALF of the every night abilities, so it's much more likely to be caught

plus

the neighborizer being strong-willed means that there's more credence to the scum bus driver in case we ever have to 1v1, because it's

not intuitive

to everybody else that the bus drive would affect the neighborize differently from the investigative

[Ankamius]

ftr

I'm going to bet that Draco's going to try to clear himself through associatives with RC

which is really funny because RC is very good at manipulating associatives as scum

[Ankamius]

if anything about M&Ps associatives is AI, it's the fact that they tried to stage a future scumread on the Draco slot while basically ignoring my reach outs

[Ankamius]

I guess whether that's compelling or not depends on how you think RC would approach a game where he rolls a 2p scumteam with two power roles

I really think that in a game with enough town power to warrant a BUS DRIVER and an INVESTIGATIVE ROLE, he'd be working to try to fake associatives with his partner to avoid an autolose if one of them die

[Ankamius]

oh believe me U2

I believe you would be able to towncase yourself based on that

which is exactly the type of strategy that I know RC would like to go for

[Ankamius]

btw

vedith
starwing

really just one thing that should heavily cement why I'm the town half of this exchange

...why would I set up a 1v1 against draco lucky, the slot that had just put in a lot of effort right before I made that night action order
...instead of lynching draco when there was a lot of support there and instead dragging the lynch over to jungle... you know, the slot that wasn't even paying any attention to the thread?

which endgame do you believe I would willingly go for?

this is especially to YOU Vedith, you just saw my scumgame not too long ago and saw exactly the type of thought processes I have when trying to win the game as scum.

I specifically plan these things out to give myself the best odds in MyLo/LyLo so that I don't have to rely as much on my less strong 1v1ing skills to win the game

[Ankamius]

and btw

I know exactly who jungle medicine is and I know I would have way better odds against them than against u2 who is actually putting up a fight against me

this is extremely evident even without knowing who jungle is just by how yesterday went

I literally made the game a lot harder for myself by swinging the lynch over to jungle as a scum play

[Ankamius]

idk u2

I very strongly doubt that RC wasn't coaching you through some of this theatre

it's not exactly a secret that most of the site is horrendous at theatre and RC is one of the few scum players that aren't.

[Ankamius]

If I had to guess, you saw how hard locked onto his scum read vedith was and decided it would be easier to let JM be the lynch then push against me onto vedith. In retrospect, if we lose here it's because I helped dig my own grave by not letting vedith get lynched.

uhhhhhh no

you have the ability to talk your way out of it

jungle is far less likely to be able to

[Ankamius]

Why does scum!me stop the lynch on the slot that is hard tunneling me - and this is before I knew anything about your neighborize and pocket on JM - when it would just mean I'd have to convince them in mylo?

it doesn't make sense.

you needed to stay alive

you were 100% getting lynched without convincing people to look elsewhere

and look who you managed to convince

me!

[Ankamius]

yes it was

[Ankamius]

and yes knowing that you can fall back on a forged town case is a pretty good morale boost for when you really need it

plus it's not exactly hard to tell something was up with the claims considering I never even claimed anything other than that your watch result was correct, pushing through that specific hole doesn't take a genius

[Ankamius]

Fire on the mountain ended so now I can tell where this is going to go

[Ankamius]

all I can really say is that RC and my interactions with each other look nothing like that game, if anything they look the opposite

RC was ignoring me all game while I spent all of day one reaching out to him

That's not SvS

[Ankamius]

what is that referring to

[Ankamius]

Ahhhhh gotcha

We were scum together in that forest game too this year so it's actually happened twice this year so far

[Ankamius]

I side with Schadd \o/

[Ankamius]

I'm too cute to be scum

[Ankamius]

ftr

scum!me would always put somebody in the neighborhood last night

[Ankamius]

probably starwing

[Ankamius]

I think I'd feel like starwing would be harder to convince of my side since they know less of how I play than you do

so I'd need that extra edge in order to make sure I can get them onto my side

[Ankamius]

but tbf if I had gone the optimal scum!me route, I would've brought nobody into the neighborhood because then jungle would have an extra avenue to convince the other neighbor against me

[Ankamius]

btw that's literally all I have for a towncase against myself

every post I made throughout the game is well within my scumrange to make

the only thing that isn't in my scumrange is the strategy I took to get here

[Ankamius]

plus schadd_ setup = poetic setup

and the setup is much more poetic with my slot being town than draco's.

if town had a redirective type town role, then it would probably be the opposite

[Ankamius]

probably starwing

:<

scum!me plays the odds game

town!me plays the odds game too

[Ankamius]

that's really informative isn't it

[Ankamius]

-This is not Ank's town game, even after switching to the ank account

what?

[Ankamius]

-Rather than help town find their way to the correct reads, ank was perfectly content regardless of who in {Vedith, JM, me was lynched}. Rather than correct me about multitasking, she let herself be clear for roughly a week obviously set town back since she is scum. And it wouldn't make sense for her to do this if she thought I was scum because then from her perspective, I had to be faking it. So from town!ank's perspective allowing that to continue only hurt town

vedith is well aware that I play mechanically when mechanics can win the game

and staying mostly silent when I'm gambiting being much weaker than I already am makes perfect sense with that mindset

[Ankamius]

-The setup doesn't make sense without some way for scum to counter the venge and that's ank

this is a nonissue, vedith

the vengekill is in the setup specifically to nerf my role so that I don't have a full what... 30-40% chance of getting a confirmed guilty immediately n1?

[Ankamius]

28.5% chance actually

with a scumkill d2, I have a 25% chance of getting a guilty n2

and that's with RANDOM checks

and IGNORING the fact that I have a second check attached to my role which also neighborizes

[Ankamius]

which btw can easily happen solely from the fact that there's a doctor shot in the setup that can prevent a NK on me night 2, which just skews things for town's favor further, ESPECIALLY if I hit the right target N2

[Ankamius]

-This is not Ank's town game, even after switching to the ank account

what?

This is a post I had remembered you making while we were playing that NSG game together, and it jived with what you were doing that game, but I don't see any kind of that active playstyle from you in this game regardless of the name you were playing under

Two of my favorite strategies:

1. If I think the top wagonee is town, I will appeal to the wagoners that I believe are the most town and most likely to agree with me to move off them. Sometimes this also means outright shielding them or purposely acting scummy to drag the wagon to myself and then playing to obvtown. This is very effective if town is deathtunneling town.

2. Directly attack what I believe scum are trying to do. If I think scum are mostly lurking, I will try to engage and form wagons on the lurkers. If town is being led by scum, I will look to shield every single one of their mislynches. If scum looks like they're afraid of a townblock, I will try to form a townblock. Figuring out stuff like this is a lot more difficult a question and I'm not sure I could ever explain it adequately.

EDIT: Quick disclaimer, care should be taken with shielding townreads. You do not want to BREAK town and their spirit, you want them to shift their mindset. You'd be very surprised how close even players with very bad reads can drastically have improved reads just from a minor shift in how they think about the game.

It's from this thread in MD viewtopic.php?f=5&t=78988

none of this is applicable when a potential mechanical solve is on the table

or when the thread is so dead that nobody is really pushing anything

[Ankamius]

tbh I think I don't even go that route in micros generally

but the only micro I played recently was a scumgame so who knows

[Ankamius]

oh right

BoP2 had a gamestate focus because I knew exactly what to look for in order to catch scum solely because of the specific complexities of that setup

[Ankamius]

It's not too strong when one half only gets a guilty on a town role and the other has a false guilty on a town role : )

[Ankamius]

I'll shut up until you need me :V

[Ankamius]

See I'm the more attentive parent

[Ankamius]

Hi edit mark

[Ankamius]

That's incorrect vedith

I'd have to push on jungle since gemini was on you

[Ankamius]

Fire on the mountain proved that I can overcome that with a well timed push, specifically the bujaber lynch

[Ankamius]

but that does show I'm capable of lynching Draco, especially since there was a lot of support there yesterday

[Ankamius]

Bujaber lynch was actually a lot less likely to succeed, I had to leverage my credibility to push it through and even then I think it only worked because of the name attached to me

[Ankamius]

when struggling for a magic grain,
we throw life to the wind like rain, for goodness sake
spare your failins and take
the ability to strengthen our spirit can stimulate all minds
blossom the days to come
bonobo & bajka - days to come

Vote count 2.4

Draco Lucky (2):

Vedith, Ankamius

Vedith (1):

Jungle Medicine

not voting (3):

GeminiTwin12, StarwingBeauvoi, Draco Lucky

with 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. day 2 ends april 19th at 04:15 central US time; in (expired on 2019-04-19 04:15:00)

mod notes

• lmirrt

[/area]

yup totally

actually nothing to suggest when jungle was willing to vote draco as well

I could've swung gemini over

it was already a done deal.

[Ankamius]

just noting ftr

we were about ready to end the day with a Draco lynch before U2 came in and posted a bunch of stuff

and then I got cold feet and changed track onto fullclaiming and pushing Jungle instead

we had 4 votes willing to be on Draco at that point, the one that ultimately stopped that push was

ME

[Ankamius]

doesn't matter, the jungle lynch doesn't happen without my influence

and 1v1ing jungle makes more sense than 1v1ing you in mylo

[Ankamius]

um

I swung the lynch towards you on page 45

and then later swung it to jungle

lol

[Ankamius]

I have a guilty on Draco, Vedith.

[Ankamius]

and no, u2

I'm not that stupid as scum.

[Ankamius]

it would not have been hard to spin Jungle as scum wanting to 1v1 me instead of Draco, especially after a watcher flip making my role really doubtful

I was specifically spinning a narrative of me being a result copier + neighborizer which I was heavily considering claiming at several points specifically because it makes the most sense with two investigatives, one of which is town and one of which is scum.

I had enough cred to take that gamble and I was very well set up to go that route

and yet I literally abandoned that to full claim my actual role and then lynch jungle instead to push a 1v1 with draco

[Ankamius]

my 'official' story was actually that I copied Jungle's role to an innocent result on myself and that the gemini townread was because of their early interactions

[Ankamius]

I mean am I sure? No, but like fuck if starwing correctly manipulated gemini's check night 1, and both ank and mine n2 then I don't see how town was supposed to win this game lol

You don't know how relieved I am to hear you're leaning town on me vedith

I think more than wanting to win this game, I really just do not want to be the reason town loses this game

um

lol

[Ankamius]

please tell me either of you see how tonally off this is

[Ankamius]

I'm arguing

that I'm a more competent scum than to put myself in this position (:

[Ankamius]

your d2 was forced

you had to survive at all costs

[Ankamius]

AND you needed my role in order to know how to play N2

and it's no surprise that the game ended up in exactly the only way that you could have any chance of winning

[Ankamius]

>scumteam with RC
>think that scum!rc would let not wanting his scumpartner to die stop him from pushing his scumpartner up to the lynchblock
>realize that RC tends to get the lynches he wants

[Ankamius]

I'm arguing

that I'm a more competent scum than to put myself in this position (:

Like, I'm not going to call you bad!scum because I don't think it's true, but I do think that you maybe got a little complacent. =/

I got complacent

...therefore I townled?

[Ankamius]

AND you needed my role in order to know how to play N2

and it's no surprise that the game ended up in exactly the only way that you could have any chance of winning

lol I'm pretty sure everyone had already at least softed by the time I put the breaks on Vedith's lynch. but it does bring up that I harped on everyone to full claim for a WEEK while people get annoyed at me for it! That is not my scum move. That's my, I need more information to solve this game move

VEDITH

This is the decisive evidence that Draco Lucky is scum.

look back at the d2 situation

1. Jungle Medicine specifically said that I was conftown.
2. Draco Lucky TRACKED me to Jungle Medicine, so it's very reasonable to assume that I did something that confirmed myself as town to them.
3. In that same breath, Jungle also claimed that Gemini was conftown.
4. Later on, Gemini confirmed that Starwing was conftown.

The situation here from an outside PoV is this:

Jungle says I am conftown.
Jungle says that Gemini is conftown.
Gemini says that Starwing is conftown.

Then I come in and immediately push a solve that will sort ALL THREE slots in a single night.

Check what you did. You were

fine

with this solve.
Check was Starwing did. Starwing was

fine

with this solve.

DRACO LUCKY WAS NOT FINE WITH THIS SOLVE.
HE SPECIFICALLY PUSHED FOR ME TO OUT MY ROLE.

Town do

NOT

need to know the specifics of my role in order to be reasonably sure that the solve is valid, just the knowledge that the solve itself is valid from that slot.

Jungle confirming that both myself and Gemini are both confirmed town LITERALLY SOLVES THE GAME.

That
Is
A
Scum
Approach
To
A
Solve.

I pushed for a mechanical town win once I knew for a fact that Gemini was hardclaiming that Starwing was conftown and that the setup did not allow for Gemini to be a traitor.

Draco pushed for me to out my role.

Which is the more town-aligned approach to the game?

[Ankamius]

Draco

does NOT

need my role in order to solve

If he is town, he just needs to know the solve is valid in order to be willing to go along with it, because town will always win in that situation

regardless

of who is lynched.

[Ankamius]

literally does not matter

Jungle confirming that there are two conftown slots when there's only one scum means that the PoE is in three people, including themselves.

[Ankamius]

literally does not matter

Jungle confirming that there are two conftown slots when there's only one scum means that the PoE is in three people, including themselves.

[Ankamius]

I have never once seen someone in this situation as town try to dissect a solve with this many people when there literally are not enough scum to cover all the slots.

Never.
Once.

[Ankamius]

"hey we have three confirmed towns"

"we should massclaim"
vs
"is the solve valid?"

[Ankamius]

Draco why did you watch Gemini?

[Ankamius]

literally does not matter

Jungle confirming that there are two conftown slots when there's only one scum means that the PoE is in three people, including themselves.

I couldn't know any of that to be true without the claims lol.

And frankly, you couldn't have assessed whether gem was likely clear without them claiming, either

[Ankamius]

I couldn't know any of that to be true without the claims lol.

[Ankamius]

AND you needed my role in order to know how to play N2

and it's no surprise that the game ended up in exactly the only way that you could have any chance of winning

lol I'm pretty sure everyone had already at least softed by the time I put the breaks on Vedith's lynch. but it does bring up that I harped on everyone to full claim for a WEEK while people get annoyed at me for it! That is not my scum move. That's my, I need more information to solve this game move

VEDITH

This is the decisive evidence that Draco Lucky is scum.

look back at the d2 situation

1. Jungle Medicine specifically said that I was conftown.
2. Draco Lucky TRACKED me to Jungle Medicine, so it's very reasonable to assume that I did something that confirmed myself as town to them.
3. In that same breath, Jungle also claimed that Gemini was conftown.
4. Later on, Gemini confirmed that Starwing was conftown.

The situation here from an outside PoV is this:

Jungle says I am conftown.
Jungle says that Gemini is conftown.
Gemini says that Starwing is conftown.

Then I come in and immediately push a solve that will sort ALL THREE slots in a single night.

Check what you did. You were

fine

with this solve.
Check was Starwing did. Starwing was

fine

with this solve.

DRACO LUCKY WAS NOT FINE WITH THIS SOLVE.
HE SPECIFICALLY PUSHED FOR ME TO OUT MY ROLE.

Town do

NOT

need to know the specifics of my role in order to be reasonably sure that the solve is valid, just the knowledge that the solve itself is valid from that slot.

Jungle confirming that both myself and Gemini are both confirmed town LITERALLY SOLVES THE GAME.

That
Is
A
Scum
Approach
To
A
Solve.

I pushed for a mechanical town win once I knew for a fact that Gemini was hardclaiming that Starwing was conftown and that the setup did not allow for Gemini to be a traitor.

Draco pushed for me to out my role.

Which is the more town-aligned approach to the game?

[Ankamius]

scum-me has a huge advantage against Jungle in this scenario where I have to 1v1 Jungle instead of Draco

WHY DO I NOT PUSH DOWN DRACO WHEN I HAD THE ADVANTAGE

[Ankamius]

True, Draco wasn't the likely lynch.

Why are people forgetting that draco literally was inches from death yesterday and only didn't die because I got cold feet

Are people even reading the same game I am?

[Ankamius]

And that's why the kill detecting makes more sense for town. False guilty for town as opposed to a way for scum to find a vengeful they don't know about.

like, I hate this setup spec. But they need that counter play to reduce the swing.

Think of it the other way. Let's say ank is town and I'm scum, and let's say the venge had hit Vedith instead of RC. Given the checks, which wouldn't be great because no guilties,

Town would enter day 2 with the ability to confirm Gemini, You, and use the neighborhood to help deduce JM's alignment.

That would leave town with a lynch pool of 3, JM + RC + me. All town has to do is find town JM and they have the game solved.
That doesn't make any sense in a scenario where town mislynched a pr D1 and that PR missed his vengeshot, and no investigatives hit a guilty. That's a scenario where scum should be winning, not on the verge of being auto'd.

The advantage for scum here is that two scum PRs is really hard to wrap your heads around as town.

It took a bit for people to accept it this game.

[Ankamius]

Alright well

Sorry for being so much of a fuckup that I can't even realize that maybe to avoid scum outcharismaing me in lylo that I should've just gone for the play I suggested above since I'm realizing all over again that I've still never once won a single 3p or 4p game in my entire career on this site

This game is just reminding me again of the game one conftown scumread me for not writing any walls and the other for not realizing that claiming a role that is confirmed town in the setup is not the same thing as becoming obvtown by play despite me explaining it twice

I'm not dealing with it anymore, feel free to blame the inevitable loss on me because really the game would've been a town stomp if I hadn't fallen into the trap of thinking jungles absense was AI and just lynched the obvscum like I was going to yesterday

I'm prodging until the game is over, I've said everything I really need to for why Draco is scum here via setup, via play, and via associatives with the RC slot. I've said everything I really need to for why this play is hideously stupid for me to make as scum when I have the game in my hands, why I can't be scum with RC, and why my role makes far more sense as town

If that's not enough, then town didn't have a chance in this lylo in the first place and I'm wasting my time

[Ankamius]

@Ank

please don't give up. Right now, I don't know who to believe. I'm in the contradictory state of wishing I could beleive both of you. But I want to win. And to do that I need to listen.
Don't keep arguing with Draco since it's doing no good. But please pay enough attention that if Vedith or I have questions, we'll be able to reach you.

fine

[Ankamius]

I'll do the check if I'm told to, I really don't care either way

[Ankamius]

Would proving my neighbor action is strong-willed help

[Ankamius]

It's an opportunity cost

It obviously removes the possibility of seeing whether the watcher has something extra u2 does not want to share

But it also shows that my claim was 100% real

[Ankamius]

Mine is :

Systems Analyst

One action detects whether the target can kill. It will get positive results on targets that have already killed.

One action detects whether the target can stop night actions. It also has a strongwilled neighborize attached to it.

I got a negative on Gemini being able to kill N1.
I got a positive on Draco Lucky being able to kill N2.

I got a negative on Jungle Medicine being able to stop night actions and neighborized them N1.
I got a positive on Gemini being able to stop night actions N2.

[Ankamius]

Prodge

[Ankamius]

It's just image tags with a full link to the pic

[Ankamius]

Although I'm guessing your role legitimately has more to it than just a watcher

I can't think of any other reason why you would be that reluctant to rolecop yourself

[Ankamius]

:/

[Ankamius]

At this point it's obvious lol

[Ankamius]

Meh

We have a week, nbd waiting for it

[Ankamius]

it's kinda obvious you have a second part of your role

and if it was a killing role, you would have claimed it long before now

soooooooooooooooooooo

[Ankamius]

well gg I guess

[Ankamius]

sorry for almost throwing the game guys

[Ankamius]

what

[Ankamius]

WAIT WERE YOU ACTUALLY TOWN?

[Ankamius]

ok good

I would've flipped my shit if you were an actual town vengeful that never claimed it

[Ankamius]

but yeah roster pretty much hard carried this game

[Ankamius]

I think I played badly enough that you could've done it tbh

I'm horrible at 1v1s

[Ankamius]

it made more sense from a design perspective than a balance perspective :V

[Ankamius]

wat

I swear the neighborize was strongwilled

[Ankamius]

Subject: Replacement Requests (except Newbie Games)

mar 28 -

micro 858: mystery box of silver 3e

moderator:

schadd_

status:

day 1, page 26

replacing:

Brassherald

Hi!

I'd like to replace if this is still open! =)

thank you! brass's PM:

welcome to micro 858! you are a

town systems analyst

! each night, you may investigate a player to see if they have potential to perform a kill; you may investigate the same or another player to see if they have potential to prevent a night action from succeeding. if the latter action succeeds, that player will be added to a neighborhood with you

(the neighborhood will still open with your initial target if the action is redirected).

you win when all threats to the town are eliminated. please confirm by telling me what the bold green text says.

schadd pls

[Ankamius]

I thought the town roles were just designed in a way to be really hard to coordinate properly because nobody can actually prove that they got redirected to anybody else