Are endgamed players dead
- Alisae
-
Alisae lolbalance
- Alisae
- Gamma Emerald
-
Gamma Emerald AnySurvivor
- Gamma Emerald
Any- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 69101
- Joined: August 9, 2016
- Pronoun: Any
- Location: Hell on Earth (aka Texas)
Gonna toss in my two centsIn post 7, BNL wrote:
No. Endgame is ending the game when the game’s outcome is certain without playing out the game.In post 5, Cheery Dog wrote:Endgaming is just a forgone conclusion to the results (scum have the majority), it's skipping the remaining days and nights where the rest of town dies.
Consider a Mountainous 2:7 Mafia game where town lose on Day 3. All moderators who bother updating the OP post-game will write “Player, Townie, endgamed Day 3” or similar somewhere in the OP. Pay attention to “endgamed Day 3”; this shows that the townies have already lost on Day 3. The game does not autojump to the point where all townies would eventually be killed by the Mafia, or it would say “died Night 3”, “died Day 4” for the 2 endgamed townies.
Ergo, being endgamed is not being killed.
On my wiki I list Endgamed as it’s own event in the same section I list whether I’m Lynched, Nightkilled, or Survived. So there’s a distinction imo.
Another thing I want to mention is whether endgamed town live could also be a flavor thing. In the recently ended the worst Idea Mafia, I had the plan that if the scumteam won, the resolution of the flavor conflict would be the surrender of the town to the scumteam and submission to their will. This would result in the remaining town being spared.
I’m aware that’s probably not very important but I think it could add something.<Embrace The Void>
“A flipped coin doesn't always land heads or tails. Sometimes it may never land at all...”- Gamma Emerald
-
Gamma Emerald AnySurvivor
- Gamma Emerald
Any- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 69101
- Joined: August 9, 2016
- Pronoun: Any
- Location: Hell on Earth (aka Texas)
I mean I’d be down for this tbhIn post 21, Firebringer wrote:i don't get why this matters in any real sense.
unless u want to write some fan stories about mafia games.
We need more people dedicated to spicing up games<Embrace The Void>
“A flipped coin doesn't always land heads or tails. Sometimes it may never land at all...”- Flubbernugget
-
Flubbernugget Survivor
- Flubbernugget
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 11751
- Joined: June 26, 2014
- Irrelephant11
-
Irrelephant11 HeJack of All Trades
- Irrelephant11
He- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6276
- Joined: April 9, 2018
- Pronoun: He
- Location: My dog's eyes
I lol’dIn post 25, Alisae wrote:You die in the game you die in real life- Irrelephant11
-
Irrelephant11 HeJack of All Trades
- Irrelephant11
He- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 6276
- Joined: April 9, 2018
- Pronoun: He
- Location: My dog's eyes
In post 19, RadiantCowbells wrote:i'm not understanding the significance of this distinction- Persivul
-
Persivul Survivor
- Persivul
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 10042
- Joined: May 4, 2015
Yes, they're dead. They should be in the dead section and noted as endgamed.
Regarding that spoiling the outcome of the game for people reading the thread later: The alive/dead sections should be and usually are hidden by spoiler tags. If a reader doesn't want things spoiled, they shouldn't be clicking on the spoilered dead sections anyway.- Zachrulez
-
Zachrulez Jack of All Trades
- Zachrulez
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 8550
- Joined: December 5, 2008
- Location: Minnesota
- mutantdevle
-
mutantdevle Mafia Scum
- mutantdevle
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3731
- Joined: October 21, 2017
- Location: Hell
I agree with you hypothetically BNL. I see being endgamed as essentially a permanent pause in the game because the result is inevitable as you stated in the OP. That said, I do think that endgamed players belong in the 'dead' tab for the sake of post-game views of the thread. But I suppose that depends on a mod to mod basis considering I don't even use dead and alive spoilers in my own games.I mostly just lurk now.- vonflare
-
vonflare doot
- vonflare
- doot
- doot
- Posts: 3093
- Joined: January 1, 2014
- Location: Blue Gatorade Factory
In post 23, RadiantCowbells wrote:@Vonflare
Hello yes as a member of the Council of Mafia Fan Fiction I can objectively state that townies that are endgamed are dead and should be put in the dead spoiler however the player must list the game as 'survived' on their wiki.
Thank you for your attention.THIS POST IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT.- Varsoon
-
Varsoon Scatman
- Varsoon
- Scatman
- Scatman
- Posts: 18738
- Joined: February 18, 2013
I'm of the mind it entirely depends on the win condition present.
I often use equal numbers sort of wincons, so in my games, the last town players aren't dead, but they have lost. I do this mainly because I think if you're a vig or a bulletproof townie left at the end of a game you've otherwise lost, your role doesn't save you from having lost the game of mafia.
However, I am under the impression that most games use a 'No remaining town players or nothing can prevent this' wincon, in which case, yes, the end-gamed players ARE dead because 'nothing can prevent this' endgaming is just hitting a fast-forward button to an eventual outcome.- Varsoon
-
Varsoon Scatman
- Varsoon
- Scatman
- Scatman
- Posts: 18738
- Joined: February 18, 2013
For purely flavor reasons, I also like the idea of the villains subjugating the culled population instead of just murdering the rest of them.
For stuff like Protomen Mafia, this was fairly integral to the flavor--the town represented an uprising of the population against oppressors; once properly quelled, that uprising would be done with and there would be survivors, but they lost.- Kublai Khan
-
Kublai Khan Khan Man
- Kublai Khan
- Khan Man
- Khan Man
- Posts: 5278
- Joined: August 5, 2008
- Location: Sarasota, FL
Honestly, the only reason mods stop the game with and endgame announcement is because mafia usually can't be trusted to majority vote themselves to victory. Even if they have 50%+ of the vote, some idiot will still be trying to bus their teammates or submit a NK on themselves for the lulz. Maybe we should let it run to conclusion and have the mafia kill the townfolk.In post 20, BNL wrote:The game ends when the Mafia can inevitably kill everyone else. This does not mean that the Mafia have actually killed everyone else.Occasionally intellectually honest
Black Lives Matter
Get vaccinated- Mulch
-
Mulch Gotta Go Fast
- Mulch
- Gotta Go Fast
- Gotta Go Fast
- Posts: 16940
- Joined: April 23, 2017
- callforjudgement
-
callforjudgement Microprocessor
- callforjudgement
- Microprocessor
- Microprocessor
- Posts: 3972
- Joined: September 1, 2011
The reason mods stop the game when the result is inevitable is to avoid wasting the players' time playing it out. Mafia games last long enough as it is; you don't want to put a lot of commitments on your players' activity when there's no reason to do so.scum· scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn ·town- funkybike1
-
funkybike1 Goon
- funkybike1
- Goon
- Goon
- Posts: 468
- Joined: September 19, 2011
- Mulch
-
Mulch Gotta Go Fast
- Mulch
- Gotta Go Fast
- Gotta Go Fast
- Posts: 16940
- Joined: April 23, 2017
This isn't true, but survivors/jesters/unjesters cannot be endgamed.In post 40, funkybike1 wrote:For wincon purposes (Survivor/Jester/Unjester) they are alive. From a gameplay perspective the game is over so it doesn't matter.Amrock#3784- callforjudgement
-
callforjudgement Microprocessor
- callforjudgement
- Microprocessor
- Microprocessor
- Posts: 3972
- Joined: September 1, 2011
Unjester and Jester can both definitely be endgamed, it's right there in the definitions on the wiki.
A Survivor can be thought of as a player who wins from being endgamed. (In practice, mods tend to play a situation like 2 scum + 2 town + 1 survivor out, but IMO they shouldn't; this is just a straightforward scum win, as scum have the numbers to lynch all the townies – the survivor has no wincon reason to stop them.)scum· scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn ·town- vonflare
-
vonflare doot
- vonflare
- doot
- doot
- Posts: 3093
- Joined: January 1, 2014
- Location: Blue Gatorade Factory
this is objectively wrongIn post 42, callforjudgement wrote:In practice, mods tend to play a situation like 2 scum + 2 town + 1 survivor out, but IMO they shouldn't; this is just a straightforward scum win, as scum have the numbers to lynch all the townies – the survivor has no wincon reason to stop them.THIS POST IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT.- callforjudgement
-
callforjudgement Microprocessor
- callforjudgement
- Microprocessor
- Microprocessor
- Posts: 3972
- Joined: September 1, 2011
Playing for a town win in this situation would violate the Survivor's win condition, as they have no way to guarantee they won't be killed overnight (and scum won't believe they're a Survivor, because if they were they would vote with scum for the win).scum· scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn ·town- Not_Mafia
-
Not_Mafia Smash Hit
- Not_Mafia
- Smash Hit
- Smash Hit
- Posts: 23476
- Joined: February 5, 2014
- Location: Whitney's Gym
Endgaming is done based on mechanical guarantees, not betting on people making the logical choiceAlso, what is NM doing? Worst play I’ve ever seen.I can't remember the last N_M post that wasn't bland, unimaginative and lame. Some shitposters are at least somewhat funny. You are the epitomy of the type of poster that nobody would miss if you were to suddenly disappear. You never add anything of value.I'm guessing you haven't read the game and probably never will? Why even sign up to play?- callforjudgement
-
callforjudgement Microprocessor
- callforjudgement
- Microprocessor
- Microprocessor
- Posts: 3972
- Joined: September 1, 2011
But endgaming in, say, the 2 scum 1 town case also relies on scum playing to their win conditions. If they didn't, they could quicklynch each other and then the remaining scum could NK themself overnight.
I don't see how 2 scum 2 town 1 survivor is any different; if every player plays to their win condition, scum will win, and if players aren't playing to their win condition, they're cheating.scum· scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn ·town-
-
Not Known 15 Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3744
- Joined: September 15, 2017
It depends if the number of scum is known, though.In post 44, callforjudgement wrote:Playing for a town win in this situation would violate the Survivor's win condition, as they have no way to guarantee they won't be killed overnight (and scum won't believe they're a Survivor, because if they were they would vote with scum for the win).
If nobody but the scum know the number of scum then it does not violate the Survivor's win condition to keep silent(if they erroneously think that they are only facing one remaining scum), and the Mafia will keep silent if they don't know that there is a survivor.
Then it is not a mechanical endgame.
Other roles might also be at work even if the number of scum is known(e.g. a dayvig) that would make claiming Survivor dangerous or that could change majority during the day.Last edited by Not Known 15 on Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.- callforjudgement
-
callforjudgement Microprocessor
- callforjudgement
- Microprocessor
- Microprocessor
- Posts: 3972
- Joined: September 1, 2011
OK, that's a good point. If the survivor doesn't know there's 2 groupscum, they'll stay silent and try to stay alive. So the Survivor can lose if they get lynched that day, and if scum is lynched that day instead, we reach an endgame where the survivor votes someone at random, asks the nonvoted player to hammer for the win, if they don't (say they're town who don't believe the Survivor claim) the Survivor changes vote and asks the other player for the win. So no faction has an inevitable win in that situation.
(Agonising over which faction to give the win to as a Survivor is one of the worst things you can do in a 1:1:1 ending, because it casts doubt on your Survivor claim. Just keep voting people until someone quickhammers.)scum· scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn ·town- BNL
-
BNL Micro Madness
- BNL
- Micro Madness
- Micro Madness
- Posts: 3338
- Joined: September 15, 2015
- Location: EDT+12
All right, some follow up questions:
1. What do you call the time between the Mafia having a certain victory, and the time where all townies are killed? I call this the endgame, and thus use "Players alive in the endgame" to refer to the surviving Mafia and endgamed townies, but the site disagrees with me, so what is the proper name for it?
2. I see "endgamed" as shorthand for "survived but lost". This shorthand is also used for e.g. traitors, jesters, and losing unlynched scum in White Flag. So why do endgamed townies have to be explicitly dead, and what would be a concise definition for "endgamed"? - BNL
Copyright © MafiaScum. All rights reserved.
- callforjudgement
- callforjudgement
- Not_Mafia
- callforjudgement
- vonflare
- callforjudgement
- Mulch
- funkybike1
- callforjudgement
- Mulch
- Kublai Khan
- Varsoon
- Varsoon
- vonflare
- mutantdevle
- Zachrulez
- Persivul
- Irrelephant11
- Irrelephant11
- Flubbernugget
- Gamma Emerald
- Gamma Emerald