Not Known 15's Large Normal Review, April 2019

[mhsmith0]

So single ball large normal games…
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=37208

208 – scum win, 14/4, 3 scum survived
Motion detector, 2 masons, 1-shot vig, jailkeeper
Against 3 goons and a 1-shot strongman

207 – town win, mylo, 14/4
Weak roleblocker, tracker, non-consecutive jk, willbooster (?)
Against 2 goons, roleblocker, odd night Neapolitan

205 – scum win, 13/4, 3 survived
Jk, bp, bp enabler, gunsmith, macho IC, rolecop
Against 2 goons, a 2-shot cop (nice troll role btw), bp traitor

203 – scum win, 16/4, 3 survived
1-guilty cop, weak vig, IC, non-consecutive doctor, 2-shot vig, plus some hood coordination potential
Against 2 goons, gunsmith, rolestopper

202 – scum win, 13/4, 1 survived
Weak vig, joat (rolecop, vanilla cop, Neapolitan), motion detector, joat (commuter, friendly neighbor, neighborizer), gunsmith, universal backup
Against 2 goons, universal backup, ninja

199 – scum win, 13/4, 1 survived
Vanilla cop, mason, mason bg, vig, gunsmith
Against 2 goons, loved traitor, motion detector

198 – town win (sweep!), 12/3
Macho day 3 IC, Neapolitan, even roleblocker, doctor, joat (track, voyeur, follow)
Against goon, encryptor, stalker (??)

197 – scum win, 13/3, 1 survived
Night 3 vig, night 1 vig, bp enabler, 1-shot bp Neapolitan, rolecop, 1-shot bp night 5 vig, 1-shot bp odd night doc
Against goon, 1-shot bp, night 5 strongman

add in
218 - scum win, 13/4, 4 survived
jk, ascetic jk, 3 masons, n2/3 gunsmith
against 2 goons, watcher, 3-shot rolecop

216 - town win, 15/4, 5 survived
IC, JOAT (commuter/cop/disloyal vig), N2/3 rolestopper, 2-shot loyal fruit vendor, multitasking joat (bg/jk/motion detector/rb/tracker/voyeur) x2, ascetic disloyal ninja babysitter
against multitasking joat (same as the town role), n1 motion detector, informed (of what???), goon
(also no daytalk)

215 mod too lazy to update OP but i found it on a postgame post
scum win, 11/4, 4 survived
informed gunsmith, jk, odd vig, even vig, JOAT (motion detetor, follower, voyeur)
vs 3 goons, traitor
shitload of town roles, plus one wolf was a traitor, but #s more scum-friendly than typical

214, 212, 211 sk game, skip
209 multiball game, skip

213 - town win, 19/4, 7 survived
vengeful neighbor, 2 masons, activated IC neighbor, UB, neighbor+2-shot friendly neighbor
against vanilla cop, backup vanilla cop, UB, vanilla cop enabler
#s WAY skewed towards town compared to standard setups, can kind of ignore, just seems like lolbalance mainly

210 - 12/5 - game was cancelled for i forget what reason
3 masons, odd cop, even cop, 2 shot vig
vs even night rolecop, 4 goons

[mhsmith0]

definitely a strange setup, need to think on balance implications
i forget if it's legal to have a scum alignment cop or not, will look into that as well

[mhsmith0]

I got a touch busywith rloverweekend will touch base later today.

[mhsmith0]

Notes/thoughts

1) The scum cop makes it MUCH likelier that they will be able to find their traitor, or at least create a decent list of people
who are NOT the traitor, and that really cuts down the odds that scum accidentally shoot the traitor (n1 cop = green, shoot them n2, etc)
This doens't QUITE make it the equivalent of a true 14/4... but it makes it a whole lot closer.

2) Can the commuter/cop use the cop while commuting? My intuition is "no" but this needs to be clear.
Ditto whether a particular scum can commute+night kill at same time. My suggestion: change the commute language to
Commute: You cannot be targeted by any means. You may not take any other actions while using this ability.
KEY NOTE: if wolves CAN commute+act otherwise, then the setup is pretty trolly, as vigs can ONLY shoot townies and the whole thing becomes "does the traitor
die and remove the commuting"

3) Overall this setup is EXTREMELY swingy on the fate of the traitor. So long as he lives, the scum are very nearly immune to dying at night, and the vigs
are profoundly damaging to town (though they can't kill each other)

Proscum scenario
D1 vt lynch
N1 2 townies die
D2 vt lynch
N2 2 townies die
D3 vt lynch
N3 2 townies die

It's POSSIBLE (though very unlikely) that MYLO/LYLO happens on d4.

Protown scenario
D1 vt lynch
N1 2 townies die
D2 vt lynch
N2 townie + traitor die

9/3, with 2 vigs, a basically cleared town (backup), and a bunch of scum who are extremely vulnerable at night

That said, i'm pretty sure plenty of towns could crap out at 9/3 with 3 prs against 3 goons so... lolol

4) I read the odd/even bp as being FULLY bulletproof, i.e. if they're shot by vig AND scum, then they still live. If this is wrong, role PMs need to be clarified.

5) I tend to think it's mildly wolfsided, in large part because of how OP the traitor role is, and how scum have substantial protection against accidentally
killing their traitor early on.
SUGGESTION: adjust the traitor role, so that it stops enabling the commuting at some point (after n3 seems okayish off the cuff, i.e. it enables results through n3, but n4+ the commuting stops [maybe work thorugh n4, then n5+ it stops?])

I forget if it's normal for a mafia commuter enabler traitor to be build to STOP enabling the commuting at some point, but if that's reasonable, then I'd be somewhat inclined to roll wtih that
I guess an alternative would be to turn one of the mafia into a goon, so that the traitor has a bit less power, but I'm not sure that really goes in line with your intentions here.

[mhsmith0]

Yeah, making it n1 - nx commuter, rather than "surprise it's no longer enabled but traitor didn't die" is a better fix

[mhsmith0]

So I've kind of rolled this around in my brain for a while, and I think it's passable, but I do want to warn you that there is pretty extreme likelihood of severe swing impacting the game substantially.

If the traitor dies early, and scum get unlucky and shoot against the BPs, then scum probably get stomped pretty hard.
If the traitor lives a while, and vig shots are wasted on scum commuters, town is going to have relatively little power to work with.

I think you're going to have salty people on the losing side. I think that's something I'm ok with existing, but I want you to walk into this with eyes wide open because you've focused power on both sides on a very limited number of EXTREMELY powerful roles.

Other notes:
I still recommend that you clarify "commuter" to be that they can't act. It's possible that they'll misinterpret the rules and be upset when their orders fail due to them not understanding their role. This is PARTICULARLY important if you plan on having role PM flips instead of just role name.

I'd rework your town PMs to read like

Abilities:
Even-Night Vigilante: You may attempt to kill another player. You may only use this ability on even numbered nights.
Odd-Night Bulletproof: You cannot be killed on odd numbered nights.
Win Conditions:
You win if all enemies of the town are eliminated or nothing can stop this from happening.

(and reverse for the reverse of it)

I'd rework your wolf PMs to read like

Abilities:
Activated Night 1-4 Commuter: If you elect to commute, you cannot be targeted by any means and you cannot take any other actions, including the factional night kill. You can only use this ability on Night 1, Night 2, Night 3 and Night 4.
Factional Communication: Each night and day phase, you may talk to your group here [LINK].
Factional Kill: Each night phase, you may send a member of your group to target another player in the game, attempting to kill them.
Win Conditions:
You win if all enemies of the Mafia are eliminated and at least one Mafia survives or nothing can stop this from happening.

Abilities:
Activated Night 1-4 Commuter: If you elect to commute, you cannot be targeted by any means and you cannot take any other actions, including the factional night kill. You can only use this ability on Night 1, Night 2, Night 3 and Night 4.
Night 1-2 Investigate: On Night 1 and Night 2, you may target one player in the game to investigate them. You will receive a result of "Town", "Anti-town", or "No Result".
Factional Communication: Each night and day phase, you may talk to your group here [LINK].
Factional Kill: Each night phase, you may send a member of your group to target another player in the game, attempting to kill them.
Win Conditions:
You win if all enemies of the Mafia are eliminated and at least one Mafia survives or nothing can stop this from happening.

etc

[mhsmith0]

wrt commuter, "they should know how this works" is a thought that's nice to have, but it's dubious (you may also want to clarify this on the investigative as well)
the role PMs also just kind of read clunky as is, which isn't horrible but isn't really ideal. Better to clean them up and make them easier to follow to make the reads not have to work as hard to understand what you're trying to do.

Also do you have draft opening posts / rule posts / etc?

[mhsmith0]

im good with this

[mhsmith0]

yes

[mhsmith0]

good luck!