Micro 870: Lynch Happy

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VOTE: Vex Vience
Everybody should sheep me on this.

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VOTE: Elsa Jay Everybody should sheep Vex on this.

@Vex, I await with bated breath.

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VOTE: Vex Vience
Everybody should sheep me on this.

everyone in this thread so far is town btw

UNVOTE:

I am dubious about whether this is town.
Otherwise, generally I agree.

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VOTE: urap2 guess who's here and hasn't checked their role pm yet

Do not do this.

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VOTE: Vex Vience
Everybody should sheep me on this.

VOTE: Elsa Jay Everybody should sheep Vex on this.

@Vex, I await with bated breath.

so obviously this is the least strong of the reads because only two posts

BUT

"I await with bated breath" is pretty passive aggressive and I think that comes from town more than scum this early in the game

It's like, "yeah, yeah, you're going to do setup spec. That's definitely going to help us solve this game /s"

It feels like someone who is just speaking their mind. like, i'd expect scum to be happy wasting time on setup spec, or to ignore someone who is about to delve into setup spec

I also think early aggression is slightly town indicative, generally

It was not passive aggressive and I do not believe I have been aggressive at all. Why are you townreading me for this?

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@nl i can explain why i find urap townie in a min if you want
@urap elsas 46 also kinda feels townie, but its a bit of stating the obvious + some faulty logic (imo)

Yes, please.

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pleasure to see you again, btw

likewise.

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It was not passive aggressive and I do not believe I have been aggressive at all. Why are you townreading me for this?

Really? You were actually waiting with bated breath for setup spec?

Yes, I was excited for this setup speculation. Specifically from Vex Vience.

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Vex's opening posts are actually all talk about setup and actions, and most of it is wrong. Vex you seem so unwilling to get into a good ol' RVS, why is that?

Vex is town. Please find somewhere else to focus.

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Iconeum, are you mafia or tp?

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I do not intend to approach this setup with my usual level of curiosity and enthusiasm. Would anybody be interested in explaining why I am being voted?

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Vex provided faulty setup spec and math… this is town?

Yes. I believe I have been transparent about that.

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Thoughts so far? Ico is definitely acting suspicious ngl. Setup discussion makes you slight townlean for me since I think that sharing that info around (in a setup like this that's being played for the first time - correct me if I'm wrong) helps us more than RVS

Thank you for stealing my two reads.
Iconeum is conspicuously not town. Vex is conspicuously town.

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i think you and ico are mafia together. ico got caught, so youre jumping in to defend him.

This occurred to me, as well. Sadly in such a setup I do suspect it will not be so easy.

PvtUrist's posting presents as somewhat real, tonally. I would feel comfortable treating them as more likely town.

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For whatever reason I had thought there was a jester in this setup. My apologies. u r a person 2 and Iconeum remain the players I have found the least likely to be town so far.

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Alright, fair enough
UNVOTE: nl
What makes you suspect urap if I may ask?

I do not see a purpose for unvoting me in 172. Why did you do this?

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Did we?
I work in mysterious ways.

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PvtUrist is not mafia.

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Hello, Austerity. Nice to meet you. I will not be asking for your identity, if you are an alt account. I believe alt accounts are too often held under expectations based on their mains.

I also agree that u r a person 2 is more likely to be mafia than my other scumreads. But he feels different from what I would expect (noting my experience with him is slightly dated).

What did you consider particularly genuine, coming from u r a person 2? I do like the confidence in his pushes. However, when he has shown moments of wavering from them, I am not sure that I am seeing thoughtful reconsideration. Rather, just backing off.

I will admit I have not been following particularly closely so allow that this is closer to an immediate impression, than a weighted consideration of his choice.

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Clemency could be the other scum. 9 posts of which 8 are fluff, and 1 vague statement about not scumreading anywhere

I had sincerely forgotten that Clemency was in the game.
VOTE: Clemency

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Datisi has been replaced, Iconeum. You may recall I asked her much the same question, and am therefore fairly disappointed.

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My mistake. I had thought he suggested u r a person 2 sounded genuine. I withdraw my attempt to reach out.

VOTE: Austerity

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I will allow you your methods, PvtUrist. If I need you to correct your read on me, I will give you some notice.

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Chaos and confusion.

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VOTE: u r a person 2
I am comfortable resuming voting Austerity, as well.

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PvtUrist, I am legitimately not sure what part of my presentation makes you think I am aligned with the mafia.

I have three non-town reads in a game with three non-town players in it.

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{clem, nmsa} can check these two, but results here probably wouldn't be too reliable. Sort them D2.

This is the perfect pair of players for the town cop to be looking into.

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plz giv readlist nl

It should already be obvious through reading my posts in isolation what my reads are.

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u r a person 2 (and PvtUrist by extension), I have limited time currently. I am not deeply enough engaged in this game that I can give you a read list off the top of my head. I will need time to think through it.

My reads in my ISO are my most considered reads. I do not remember all of them off the top of my head. If you have issue with a read I have stated, say so. Otherwise I will give a read list if and when I am ready to give one.

PvtUrist, please take a moment to consider that 262 is more likely to come from non-town than from town.

Additionally, I am starting to suspect that I am the lyncher target. Either that, or I am appearing substantially more scummy than I intend to. But the only forthcoming case has been PvtUrist's, which was far closer to a list of grievances than a consideration of how I am approaching this game as a member of the mafia.

As I said previously. If and when. I will solve this at my own pace. If you have issues with me, attempt to engage me in a conversation. Do not try to position me, and do not shame my playstyle merely because I do not use my time to please other people.

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Incidentally, consider that your mutual approach to me over the last two pages makes me feel that I need to waste time writing up posts like this, rather than making an effort to solve the game.

Lynch somebody who is unlikely to be town aligned. Do not lynch the person who people you and your townread are annoyed with.

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i s2g no lunch is just throwing his vote everywhere to look like he doesnt have a target

Would you please quote the votes I have made which substantiate this post? I frankly disagree that I am "throwing my votes everywhere".

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Additionally, I am starting to suspect that I am the lyncher target.

like why would you say this if you're actually town in a game where the entire point is for mafia to bluff being lynch target

I had not considered that the point of this setup is for mafia to bluff being lynch targets at all. There are some very dubiously motivated posts regarding why I should be lynched, and very little sorting of my slot happening.

Do you disagree with this assertion? Why did you elect to shade me and suggest my gamestate read is alignment indicative rather than focus on the alignment indicative parts of my posts?

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Aight, I tr Clem now.

Would you please explain your Clem townread?

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yezh, okay, except you're just lecturing us and telling us we should "lynch somebody who is unlikely to be town aligned" instead of posting a readslist.

You could have posted a readslist 10 times over in the time it took you to make these two posts! No one is asking you to go into a brand new game and craft reads from scratch. Like you said, you HAVE reads, already. You just would rather throw around paragraphs of ate rather than give them.

Is it really so hard to see that NL is scum here?

Why is any of this scum indicative?

I acknowledge that I am a prime target for white knighting in this gamestate. However, Austerity is the only person who is sorting rather than voting me from frustration.

I will be reconsidering this positively but suspect I am more grateful than certain of him being town.

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re:bolded - why tf would you wanna appear scummy to begin with nl? i dont see any benefit to townies, (unless youre the cop), to appearing scummy in the first place. the only way itd make sense is if youre the cop and you dont wanna get nk'd, but even then, youre such a low-profile target imo that mafia would be stupid to shoot you.

so why purposefully look scummy?

I believe you misunderstood my implication.
I am not intending to look like I am mafia. Therefore if I am looking as though I am mafia, I have made an error. I do not believe others are pushing me for alignment indicative reasons.

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and also, id like to mention that these reads feel extremely safe. it feels like he doesnt wanna dedicate to anything extreme and just wants to stick with the safe reads. thats not a townie thing to do imo because i think town is more likely to take a more extreme stance than scum.

Do you believe there are non-safe stances to adopt in this gamestate? This game has not been interesting.

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u r a person 2, how well do you remember northsidegal's Geriatric Half Mast Nightless?

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u r a person 2, how well do you remember northsidegal's Geriatric Half Mast Nightless?

I remember correctly reading you and then losing that read, but I don't remember why.

I actually only just recalled out interactions, which is making me second-guess my read on you. Revisit that game and report back, please.

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Okay. Please don't be upset if I misread you here, but your play has been transparently forcing an agenda. My concern is I cannot tell whether your agenda is personality-driven, or win condition driven.

Would you please summarise in 100 words or less why you think I am mafia?

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Elsa Jay - lurker.

Clemency - lurker.

NotMySpamAccount - lurker. When he did post he took very safe stances. This is a red flag, from my perspective. I will revisit this.

Iconeum - almost certainly town.

PvtUrist - he has been pushing some very under-considered reads very assertively. This is very likely a town tell. My only concern is that he may be playing this game in a way which makes him present as town-aligned, rather than one which furthers the town win condition. Provisionally town.

Austerity - this player has won the "most interesting read of the game" award. His predecessor was transparently not engaged. Provisionally town, but he has set a high bar for himself.

Vex Vience - this player looks like town, at face value. I like the fervor of his posting. I like the way he is tossing reads around. He feels like a storm of effort. A lot of his work his rather nitpicky, and I am not sure his actual sorting mindset is particularly difficult to fake. So likely also town, but I suspect I will struggle reading this player.

u r a person 2 - as said.

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{Iconeum, PvtUrist}
{Austerity, Vex Vience}
{Clemency, Elsa Jay}
{NotMySpamAccount}
{u r a person 2}

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I believe you lied about actually being interested in the setup spec because you never returned to it after this post

Vex Vience is usually very easy to read later in the game, as long as he posts. I was interested in him starting up momentum in his posting. Not in setup speculation. I believe I explicitly stated that I was only interested in this because it was becoming from him.

This was a misunderstanding; otherwise, I would like you to read this post and then take a step back, and reread your case with an open mind. From where I am sitting, your reasoning for me being mafia presents as almost entirely inductive. I doubt this is intentional (as either alignment) but I do hope it assists you in seeing where I am coming from.

I found Iconeum's opening non-town indicative, and acted accordingly to bait his response. Since, I believe he has showed town motive.

I would explain most of the rest of the posts which you have taken exception with, as coming from another perspective:

This game is not exciting. Not a lot is happening, and I am generally far weaker at finding mafia whilst also needing to defend myself. The exception to this is when some players very clearly believe I am mafia, and others are along for the ride. PvtUrist is the only player who has shown a concerted effort to sort me, and then came to the wrong conclusion. I am defending myself from people generally not paying attention to my posting. That is weakening my ability to solve this game.

I am not sure what else you deem non-town indicative. There was motivation in me requesting a 100 word summary.

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Town
NMSA
urap2
PvtUrist
Vex Vience
Null
Clem
Ico
Elsa Jay
Scum
Austerity
nl

Please consider the levels of safeness possible. I do think it is challenging to have highly nuances reads in this game. These reads feel as though they are for fashion.

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You asked for me to indicate where I see your play being agenda-driving. I am explaining why I find your read on me unbelievable, and watching how you react.

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And the point of this was that you can't in good faith imply that there are no non-safe stances AND also call it a red flag that someone has taken safe stances

I think that context is vital.
To say it another way, I believe that NotMySpamAccount posted for the purpose of being viewed positively by most people.

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real quick: nl, do you have a scum-game?
urap, can you re-link me your town games, but also link some scum games?

even though i hate meta, i really wanna meta these two. i have the tinfoil thought of urap v nl being tvt and i really wanna try to figure it out.

Here is my egosearch.
(I was not a part of the newbie game; I enjoyed the moderator's use of "lunch" in place of "lynch", and so decided to immortalize myself within its dead thread)

I have not rolled scum on this site yet and am not comfortable with offering off-site games. If you have meta-related questions I am comfortable answering them within reason. Though I know you have no reason to take my word for it, it will also help me to read you.

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Vex, check the dates of Fork Bomb against this game for additional context.

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yes i know. it was the other day. but it still doesnt really excuse the difference i spotted.

How so?

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This game is a slower burn than Forkbomb was, and so I focused my energies there first. I have called things out here as they have stood out to me and my recent engagement with u r a person 2 is my town meta to a 't'. Accounting for divided attention, your take is premature.

Even not accounting for divided attention, could you please explain why you are less comfortable with my play here when compared with other games?

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How would you describe my play in this game, when I have been present?

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Why am I not the lyncher target in any universe? I actually feel as though my wagon popped up more quickly than I would expect. Cop is more valuable as a late game utility in any micro.

I actually think I have been engaging and asking questions, when present. In fact all I have really had to react to was pushes on me and Austerity's defence of me. Could you please show me, specifically, what is missing from me?

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bro if someone asks for a readslist, save them the time of isoing you and just give them the readslist. if you're town, you're on the same team, so why work to be difficult?

It did not occur to you that this post was either u r a person 2 tunnelling me for clearly non-alignment-indicative reasons, or him implicitly pocketing PvtUrist?

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If I am the lyncher's target, it is certainly an easy win for them to coast here or otherwise make a final "nail-in-coffin" push (for instance, it is currently occurring to me that you may easily be the lyncher; hence why I am asking you to be accountable for your reads).

I have already explained why I did not post a poorly constructed read list on the fly... It does not help the town. It helps me look more like town, but without me having an opportunity to reassess my read list before posting, it does not help with sorting anybody except for me.

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Considering you think I am non-town, I am going to suggest you may think I am mafia aligned. Where is my team mate? What are anti-town forces doing to muddy the gamestate while I am being wagoned?

Pedit: I am happy to post on the fly. I believe I have made the offer: if you are uncomfortable with me for a tangible reason, talk to me about it. But when I have not been interested in the game and do not have a strong feeling on many things, posting a read list entirely to satisfy PvtUrist's demands would be me making up content so that I look more town than I am.

You think that is malicious? I would suggest me promising to deliver when I could, and then later delivering is one of the more transparently town motivated actions taken in this game.

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what benefit do i get from trying to actively sort you rn? sure, i could get an easier time lynching you, but if i can take the path of least resistance here, and not bother pushing you and letting you be lynched due to plurality, why dont i bother doing that?

I do not think you are the lyncher, no. It just crossed my mind earlier to ensure I ask you to heavilu qualify your scumread on me. Your read on me shifted from town to scum very quickly, and you then found convenient supporting evidence via a surface-level meta dive.

At the start of this conversation, I was concerned about being positioned. At this stage my feeling is indeed that you are trying to sort me.

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i think youre the lyncher, not mafia. however, if i had to call out someone as your scumbuddy? aust. 100%.

Let us work with this.
Austerity has defended me for what he viewed as a town tell (please read it again, as it was against the grain, nuanced, and not at a time when I was imminent threat of being mislynched). He has not made any effort to manipulate the gamestate in any way which is beneficial to mafia.

That is a town slot, I am quite certain.

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because i went back and re-evaluated your posts. they felt townie on the surface, but scummy deeper down. thats why im scumreading you.
also nice to know youre just lurking elsa.

Could you please show posts which exemplify this? I believe I have not posted once in an effort to be viewed as town aligned...

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That is not what I am saying.. :/

You said I am posting with the intention of appearing town aligned (surface level town posts which are deeply anti-town indicative). I do not think I am posting that way at all. I have been calling out what stuck out to me as pertinent while my attentions were more focused on Forkbomb. I have not been approaching this game with anything deeper than "what you see is what you get" posting. I simply cannot understand where you believe you saw me posting to look surface level town.

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For what it is worth, I agree entirely. Those who lurk or otherwise play poorly as town intentionally are sub-par mafia players, by default.

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I think yourself and u r a person 2 have written excellent cases on why you don't like me. I would also like both of you to take some time to reevaluate those cases for valid scum tells because from my perspective, the tunnelling here is equally as clear as it was in northsidegal's Geriatric Half Mast Nightless. The difference here is that u r a person 2 is not committing to pushing my lynch as aggressively as he did there, nor willing to reevaluate his read. He is committing to the non-town indicative parts of his read, yet refusing to follow through with town-indicative reasoning or enthusiasm.

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Both of these have been arguments I am absolutely unable to win. When I provide answers, I am told of another reason or why my answers are invalid.

This has gone from a matter of determining perspectives to a matter of sheer debate. I truly think both of you need to consider that I have produced as much content as I could possibly be expected to in this situation.

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VOTE: NotMySpamAccount
This is where my vote is going, regardless of anything else.

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I explicitly did not interact with him to convince him I was town. I interacted with him to try and discern his alignment based on the way he pushed me. I am satisfied he has produced enough content for me to read him correctly, but not that I townread that content yet. I will obviously be actively reevaluating him.

NotMySpamAccount has not been pressured enough.

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Intent does nothing in this setup, though I appreciate the sentiment.

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I should have a better idea of who scum is right now but I don't feel very confident. My wagon has been the only exciting part of this game and I do not believe the town aligned players on it have attempted to sort me rather than surrendering to bias.

Good luck, if I am hammered.

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Vex Vience argued that I am non-town in a more town-indicative fashion than u r a person 2. Iconeum is still likely town, and just making bad decisions. PvtUrist is wavering but if he continues to push with the level of passion he has, he is likely town; just continue to torment him.

NotMySpamAccount is playing to be read as town, or to coexist. He is an open wound. Apply pressure or bleed out.

And, good luck.

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Also be very, very careful in sorting Austerity. His read on me is three levels further than any of you are playing. It was either excellent or "too much information".

Spend the time you have not spent sorting me, sorting him. With luck, this will be what wins the town the game.

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Actually I would suggest more caution in sorting Iconeum, as well. This read was premature.

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Austerity is town.

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u r a person 2 may be town. Arguing is not outside of his scumrange, and he is not outside of his scumrange currently. Keep him under pressure.

PvtUrist, on reflection, is also not outside of his scumrange.

I very strongly doubt that all lurking players are mafia (i.e. all mafia are lurking players). My wagon is also not entirely town.

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Vex is town (or, possibly, lyncher. Town is more probable. If he is the lyncher, his target is not me).

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Once again, I find myself wishing I could analyse the votes on my wagon and discern alignments from there. But this wagon is overwhelming with malicious intent. I am more suspicious of those on it who have not engaged with it (Clemency, NotMySpamAccount) than I am with those who have pursued me more ambitiously (u r a person 2, PvtUrist). Iconeum's intentions in being on my wagon I am not entirely sure of and may boil down to frustration.

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I am finding myself nodding at Austerity's point regarding Clemency's vote on me. It is not strong, but I also am starting to feel as though Clemency may feel more inclined to do something if he were not towned aligned.

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All roads, from my perspective, are leading to wanting NotMySpamAccount wagoned as immediately as possible.

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I do not trust u r a person 2, and I do not trust any of you to sort him correctly. What he has been pushing is within his scumrange. He is lacking a human element which points towards it being a real thought with a legitimate process behind it. All he is displaying is arrogant argument, and casing of elements of my play which are non-alignment indicative as scum indicative. When I confront him about this case, he backs off. No reconsideration is shown. He is not actively pushing for my lynch because he believes I am not town aligned. He is pushing for my lynch because it is well supported, and he is proud of his case on me.

This is correct, regardless of alignment. When I tried to engage with him earlier, I received less empathy or humanity in response than I would from attempting to converse with a sock.

If you are townreading u r a person 2, reconsider it heavily. If you are not townreading u r a person 2, pressure him heavily tomorrow and do not let him survive unless you see an unambiguous towntell. He has not towntold.

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I don't understand why you're working hard to

convince me

that you're town when you think that I am scum.

As to what I think is scum-indicative. I just gave you a comprehensive case. Are you really going to shade me for making it too long? lolol

#flailing

Responses in this fashion are, to steal his turn of phrase, in extremely bad faith.

Reread our conversation. See how I addressed each of his points, and explained everything I have done. See the way he does not budge, and when I call for reconsideration, he disappears only to reappear and call for my hammer lately.

He is not trying to sort me.

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Please refrain from hammering pending an answer to this.
Vex, what is your level of confidence in u r a person 2 being town?
How much of the Draco Lucky scumgame did you read?

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VOTE: u r a person 2
I will not be claiming.

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Vex Vience, ask yourself why any respective slot in this game benefits from claiming. Think through each potential choice. Then you will divine why I am not claiming.

In the interim, I welcome you to pressure the players who will still be present after I am gone.

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honestly, im really tempted to hammer nl right now since theyre effectively claiming scum by voting urap and saying they wont claim. im just being nice and giving them a chance to claim

something

.

You do realize the only claims possible are "I'm Cop" which Scum or Lyncher hammer, VT which you hammer, or Lyncher which anyone would hammet, right?

I still have no idea how to read you, but I like you a lot for this post.

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Please refrain from hammering pending an answer to this.
Vex, what is your level of confidence in u r a person 2 being town?
How much of the Draco Lucky scumgame did you read?

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Apologies. I just saw your answer.

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I believe that he has tonally strayed, but his level of skill and approach and effort to lynch me in this game is identical to his skillset as scum evidenced in the Draco Lucky game.

He 'looks' town at a surface level, but has exhibited nothing outside of his scumrange.

Do you disagree with this assertion? If so please indicate where you believe he has broken his scumrange.

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In essence, anybody who read the first 50 posts of his in isolation in the Draco Lucky scumgame would likely agree with you. He is being less friendly, here.

Reading the entire game, I just note that he exhibits a narrow set of skills as scum, and wondered if that was something you had considered. Given your level of confidence and all.

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Once again, u r a person 2 pushes me in bad faith without reconsidering his stance nor reading what I am saying...

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You will note that I am querying with Vex Vience, not trying to engage with you. Please wait until I am satisfied.

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You said that you meta checked u r a person 2 and determined this is not his scum meta. Please show me why you have drawn that conclusion, citing things which have happened in this game.

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Having dwelled on the matter, whether me vs. u r a person 2 is town+scum or town+town is likely approximately random. My concern is he has not exhibited explicit town tells, and yet is being treated as though he is obviously town.

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you really want me to cite

everything

that leads me to believe this is uraps town meta compared to draco? you really want that?

You are welcome to. Otherwise, just show me where you believe that u r a person 2 had exhibited skills here which he does not have as scum.

We have time. You don't need to do a large write up. This will help to untangle the game.

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I do not wish to exist in this world anymore.

Hammer if you will. I will flip town. If you bank on u r a person 2 being scum, please ensure that you actually attempt to sort his alignment before lynching him.

You are a nightmare to be town with. Part of me wishes you were scum. But I do not feel it particularly strongly. I sincerely hope you learn something from this game, no matter the outcome.

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Just hammer him.

He's raising my fucking blood pressure with his tone and he's lying his fucking face off

This is all well and good to say when you have ignored nearly all of the context of my posts.

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Check NMSA. I am town.

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No. I am town, and your suggestions are terrible. Check NotMySpamAccount or Elsa Jay.

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u r a person 2 is required to indicate his alignment more poignantly at day start after I flip town. He is a very low value cop check.

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We can only hope.

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Clemency is always a troll. His claiming lyncher means virtually nothing.

I will not be engaging in post-game salt, but you have a lot to learn from this. Anybody who was town had numerous opportunities to engage with me about any of my reads. The vote count was a sudden wagon on me with no counter-wagon action until last minute votes against u r a person 2, who was refusing to engage with me and treating me like some kind of sub-human.

You all have a lot to learn from this. So do I. Commentary ends here, as there is no value in me letting my disgust show.

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yeet skeet evading the heat

This is also, undeniably, the best post in the thread.

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Anyway from this, u r a person 2 has a better chance of being town. Vex Vience is clearly town. Clemency would be likely town for the reaction test.

If the game continues, Elsa Jay is very likely mafia. Partner is Iconeum or perhaps (less likely) Austerity/PvtUrist.

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His reaction to this would be faintly repulsive if he is mafia. He does not strike me as repulsive. I might as well make some effort to take a guess at a scumteam.

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hot take nl played impeccably here with what he had

This means a lot to me, by the way.

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Clemency is always a troll. His claiming lyncher means virtually nothing.

I will not be engaging in post-game salt, but you have a lot to learn from this. Anybody who was town had numerous opportunities to engage with me about any of my reads. The vote count was a sudden wagon on me with no counter-wagon action until last minute votes against u r a person 2, who was refusing to engage with me and treating me like some kind of sub-human.

You all have a lot to learn from this. So do I. Commentary ends here, as there is no value in me letting my disgust show.

sub-human? Are you for real?

I INSIST that you report me to the listmods for whatever comments I made that were treating you as subhuman.

Not bothering to respond to my numerous attempts to reach out and bring out conversation to the next level is sadly not contained within a post.

Take some time to calm down. If you would like to talk about it further, you are welcome to PM me. I would suggest we make a mutual effort to avoid each other.

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"Treated me as though I was a human being whose opinions did not deserve any merit or any of your time" is more long-winded, yet more accurate. Accept that as a substitution if you will.

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I have not in my entire career felt more obviously town than I did here. I continuously tried to argue where I did not think that your reads were deep enough to catch an anti-town player, and you snarked back at me without considering my reasoning for a moment.

I feel absolutely justified in most of what I have said, though some has been somewhat hyperbolic. I will revisit this in some days' time and approach you if I feel the need to apologize.

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I'm not a "victim", I will take at least a portion of the blame due to my intentionally off-beat language choices.

But thank-you for taking a moment to see things from my perspective.

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Suggesting policy lynching somebody who is at L-1 due to making a play which you have spent absolutely no time thinking about, yet still consider anti-town, is certainly not town-indicative.

I would argue that NMSA's post was largely non-alignment-indicative; however, Austerity is correct that it is certainly not towny.

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Vex, you may need to reconsider the way in which you use meta. Otherwise I think you were fine.

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I have not in my entire career felt more obviously town than I did here.

I continuously tried to argue where I did not think that your reads were deep enough to catch an anti-town player, and you snarked back at me without considering my reasoning for a moment.

I feel absolutely justified in most of what I have said, though some has been somewhat hyperbolic. I will revisit this in some days' time and approach you if I feel the need to apologize.

Is it too much to consider that others don't view you the way you view yourself?

I do not doubt that they did (and did not suggest it was unfair for people to scumread me; only that it was unfair for those people not to play with me at all.

I agree, it is certainly obvious that others did not view me the way I view myself!

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not really. he couldve made a case to get off the stand if he claimed vt.

Everybody in the game should claim vt there. Except perhaps the cop, if they lack imagination.

If I was successful in steering a lynch elsewhere and survived, my claiming vt would have accomplished nothing except shrinking the pool of possible cops for the mafia to night-kill.

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Suggesting

policy lynching somebody who is at L-1 due to making a play which you have spent absolutely no time thinking about

, yet still consider anti-town, is certainly not town-indicative.

I would argue that NMSA's post was largely non-alignment-indicative; however, Austerity is correct that it is certainly not towny.

practically every player in every game on this site: claims at L-1
nl: doesn't claim at L-1
nl: is lynched
nl: suprised pikachu

You have a lot to learn, NotMySpamAccount.

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There are many situations where it is -ev for a townie to claim at L-1, even if it means compromising their self-image. If somebody is refusing to claim in an open game, there is usually a deeper motivation for them not claiming. Do you play a lot of opens? They are a very good experience. Players are required to operate at a level of utility which is far greater than a closed game. If there is one power role which can have a large effect on the outcome of the game, using a vanilla townie as a meat-shield for them is tremendously valuable.

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NL

Thank you for this - it does help me to see what your approach was. I trust that you also see what my approach was.

As I mentioned, I will revisit this in some days' time and reach out to you if I feel that an apology is appropriate. I genuinely do not believe that our conversation reached a deep enough level that I should have felt confident in you being town.

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not really. he couldve made a case to get off the stand if he claimed vt.

Everybody in the game should claim vt there. Except perhaps the cop, if they lack imagination.

If I was successful in steering a lynch elsewhere and survived, my claiming vt would have accomplished nothing except shrinking the pool of possible cops for the mafia to night-kill.

ok, but we have a greater chance of hitting scum then. the cop would be forced to out d2 if thats the case anyways, so it wouldnt matter who scum were hunting for.

But if you let every vanilla townie claim off the stand, then you are letting vanilla townies off the stand.

Do you play Town of Salem?

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Sorry: you are letting both vanilla townies and non-town players off the stand.

Claiming means virtually nothing when more than 50% of roles are vanilla townies.

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There are many situations where it is -ev for a townie to claim at L-1, even if it means compromising their self-image. If somebody is refusing to claim in an open game, there is usually a deeper motivation for them not claiming. Do you play a lot of opens? They are a very good experience. Players are required to operate at a level of utility which is far greater than a closed game. If there is one power role which can have a large effect on the outcome of the game, using a vanilla townie as a meat-shield for them is tremendously valuable.

fmpov, some of this post seems to support my point, and the rest appears to be gibberish. I can't figure out what you're talking about.

Would you be interested in hearing my full thoughts on the subject? I will PM you. Austerity is correct, there is no reason to assume that somebody not claiming is non-town. Additionally I do not think that not claiming is anti-town behavior.

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I genuinely do not believe that our conversation reached a deep enough level that I should have felt confident in you being town.

I don't understand how this is relevant. Not trying to be a dick. Just saying if there is a point you wanted me to glean from this, I'm not gleaning it.

I was engaging with you exclusively to glean your alignment. I feel that we got half-way there, and then you suddenly backed off. This left me with deep-seated concern.

I understand that you may have reached a point of frustration where you refused to see me as town, but I do not believe that you challenged yourself on this. (For example, did you undertake a biased re-read assuming that I was town and try to sell yourself on that read? I did this for you during our conversation and again afterwards, and found the counter-arguments intriguing yet not compelling. Hence my re-entry to the thread suggesting that we are not guaranteed to be town-scum).

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There are many situations where it is -ev for a townie to claim at L-1, even if it means compromising their self-image. If somebody is refusing to claim in an open game, there is usually a deeper motivation for them not claiming. Do you play a lot of opens? They are a very good experience. Players are required to operate at a level of utility which is far greater than a closed game. If there is one power role which can have a large effect on the outcome of the game, using a vanilla townie as a meat-shield for them is tremendously valuable.

fmpov, some of this post seems to support my point, and the rest appears to be gibberish. I can't figure out what you're talking about.

Would you be interested in hearing my full thoughts on the subject? I will PM you. Austerity is correct, there is no reason to assume that somebody not claiming is non-town. Additionally I do not think that not claiming is anti-town behavior.

go ahead. I will say that claims are the most important part of d1 for the way I scumhunt, because they can be logically proven true or false. There's no ambiguity to a cc.

I think there is great validity for straight-forward claiming in closed, and sometimes semi-open setups. The MafiaScum newbie setup is one where straight-forward claiming is optimal, for instance. I am yet to see a game in that setup where somebody not claiming has been +ev for town.

I will wait for things to cool down a bit, and then write something up for you.

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If you're saying I backed off last night, I went to dinner and then had to prepare with my team for a meeting that happened early this morning. It's a forum game and you do not have a guarantee of my time for any period of time. I'm not actually looking for unsolicited play advice here. I'm just looking for you to not walk away from this thinking that I somehow mistreated you because I did not.

Did you have no opportunity to engage with me in good faith afterwards? Because you were certainly around to encourage others to hammer me.

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Interestingly, if I was the cop I would not counter-claim a cop claim until day two. It would be better to counter-claim including one check, than to counter-claim without.

But I am indeed not the cop.

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I have two opportunities, assuming the claim occurs on day one.
1) I directly counter-claim, causing a dichotomy between us; either I am lynched today and then you tomorrow, or you are lynched today and then I am nightkills. I am able to exchange myself for one member of the mafia.
2) I do not counter-claim day one. You are now confirmed scum to me. That night, I check somebody else (looking for your partner). At the start of day two, I am more likely to be alive having not outed myself as the cop. Then I am able to out myself, still outside of LyLo, along with a technical guilty on you via my counter-claim, as well as a cop check. If I am lynched today, you are confirmed scum for lylo (a town check is likely night-killed, but it is functionally the same; I have one guiltied scum for lylo and have steered night kills off strong town players on night two). If you are lynched day two, I am night killed but we enter 5p with one cleared town or a second guilty.

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Well done with the cheeky cop distancing, Vex Vience.

Good game, Clemency.

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@nl you always cc the second you can. i had a newbie where one of the newbies waited a day before ccing, (iirc). they got hanged instantly. you wouldve been lynched instantly in this case.

That would depend on the skill level of the town!
But even if I were instantly lynched day two, I believe it forms a stronger LyLo gamestate.

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i wouldnt have ever called myself out as cop. i was also really hoping nl, you were mafia and you decided to claim cop just so i could hammer you and then say "youre not cop, im the cop. die scum"

This would have been funny, if nothing else.

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It is very easy to mention in-thread that you do not have time to finish the conversation. I do not believe that either of us were blameless in this.

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You are still tunnelled on me. I am not mafia in real life, and am not intent on a smear campaign against you. Back off, and we may resume this at a later time should you wish. In the interim I suggest we simply avoid each other in games.

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This setup is a testimony to why the linear approach to claiming we use here is sub-optimal. It is effectively a work of art. You should feel proud of your creation, Elsa Jay.

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It is also fairly easy to discern the lyncher/lynchee dynamic (to an extent) with too much information. I, for instance, had a very strong read that I was the lynchee due to being aware that I was town and observing the way in which my wagon took off.

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That is a reasonable. Perhaps I would be better spending my time praising Austerity for his out-of-the-box critical thinking. I do not "blame" anybody who disagrees with my opinion on claiming.

I do believe that anybody who wishes to become a better mafia player will do themselves a favor by reconsidering the frameworks which we drill into our newbies. But nobody is blameless for playing what they believe is an optimal game. There are only a finite number of people who play mafia in a way which is actively detrimental to their win condition; much of the rest of becoming better is learning from experiences.