I took a quick look at the data on this setup vs the data from a matrix newbie setup I found from 2014. Replacement rates look to be a bit lower across the board. I'm not sure if single point movement in replacements is statistically significant. (There are going to be fluctuations and then there's the question of what caused them.)In post 99, Ircher wrote:But hasn't daytalk reduced the number of scum newbie replacements? I remember that being a thing back when Mina did the daytalk trial in the Newbie Queue.
Sure, maybe it is not 100% needed, but it is so desirable that to exclude it would truly be a huge shame.
The Newbie 2d3 stats thread (upd. 2019-05-28, 87g)
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Sure--it's notIn post 98, Zachrulez wrote:Daytalk is definitely not required for a smooth and enjoyable game experience. Need to be careful not to confuse between being 'desirable' and 'needed'required.
But it makes it happenmore oftenandmore consistently.
Youcanhave a smooth/enjoyable game experience without daytalk.
You'remore likelyto have a smooth/enjoyable game experience with daytalk.- Toomai
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Update complete, Dropbox issue subdued (whatever it was), hopefully can pay more attention to it in the future.
I think this is the most telling stat so far:
Excluding day 1 (well, excluding all 7:2 lynches),halfofalllynches are on scum (51.0%). Even including D1 makes this 44.9%. For Matrix6 newbie games, it was only a third (32.7%).
Spoiler: Matrix6 graphThis should be required reading for...everyone for anything, really.- implosion
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Consider, however, what happens when you look exclusively at day 1; with a still decently solid sample size, 31% of lynches now are on mafia, compared to 20% before. Can this be easily explained with only setup differences? (To be clear, this may be a real question if there are very widespread d1 claim strats, I don't know as I haven't played newbies recently). If not then the differences as a whole are likely also not explained only by setup differences, and may have to do with changing meta in some way.- TTTT
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.... or scum has been getting worse.In post 104, TTTT wrote:It feels like towns have been getting better in Newbie games- PenguinPower
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The Rookie KillerIn post 107, u r a person 2 wrote:if TTTT took a break from newbie queue, scum win rates would jump 10% at least, and he never rolls scum =/
guy needs a title like "newb-hunter" but more clever
(love ya buddy)
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Okay I think I've changed my mind for most telling stat; this one is significantly more specific (if a bit less in sample size).
(X:Y-Z = X-day D1, Y-day D2+, Z-hour prods)
The shorter deadlines have wrecked scum. (p=0.0703)This should be required reading for...everyone for anything, really.- mastina
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Obligatory reminder there's a thread for that.In post 107, u r a person 2 wrote:guy needs a title like "newb-hunter" but more clever- Zachrulez
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My experience was pretty even both ways honestly.In post 101, mastina wrote:
Sure--it's notIn post 98, Zachrulez wrote:Daytalk is definitely not required for a smooth and enjoyable game experience. Need to be careful not to confuse between being 'desirable' and 'needed'required.
But it makes it happenmore oftenandmore consistently.
Youcanhave a smooth/enjoyable game experience without daytalk.
You'remore likelyto have a smooth/enjoyable game experience with daytalk.-
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Ah, yes.In post 109, Toomai wrote:Okay I think I've changed my mind for most telling stat; this one is significantly more specific (if a bit less in sample size).
(X:Y-Z = X-day D1, Y-day D2+, Z-hour prods)
The shorter deadlines have wrecked scum. (p=0.0703)
That makes perfectly sense(and it is actually something I warned about before...).- Irrelephant11
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Yeah the deadline thing makes a lot of sense. Part of some scum wins in the newbie forum is apathy and time for newbscum to gain their footing. The shorter deadlines have cut back on both (potentially a good thing in the case of the former, potentially a bad thing in the case of the latter)
I think Creature's complaint in a recent newbie is also a valid one on behalf of scum
If we're okay with doing things we wouldn't do elsewhere on the site to maximize the amount of fun newbies have, I'm kinda okay with a townsided setup - makes for more newb winners per game.
But some setups do feel less like mafia and more like a semi-broken PR puzzle, which is antithetical to MafiaScum's emphasis on dayplay and should probably be fixedHey all! Excited and nervous to play my first game with you!
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Someone suggested my recent Choose Your Own Adventure semi-open could be a newbie setup. I'm not sure, but I thought I'd share it here anyway in case it can somehow add to this discussion in a helpful way.
I think this setup might be lightly townsided (to balance for MS's oft-scumsided dayplay meta), but here it is anyway:
Hey all! Excited and nervous to play my first game with you!
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that's a really cool setup. Let me know if you run it as a micro.The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Immediate problem that comes to mind is that a lot of the game's discussion is inevitably going to get around "who chose what letter" and if you think about it in terms of a game that's supposed to help newer people get into the game that doesn't sound like a good idea. Perhaps a generation of sorts would solve the problem?- BNL
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That's a good setup but I don't think it's suited for a newbie setup- Irrelephant11
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Oh I agree that if the setup I just posted is used in anyway it would have to be overhauled for newbie friendliness (remove the letter picking in favor of random generation, make the scum 1-shots factional, etc).
Are there any open setups that aren't semi-opens that could just *be* the newbie setup? Something like a micro Watchers Wanted or Marked for Death?Hey all! Excited and nervous to play my first game with you!
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The answer to the question of "what should the newbie setup be" REALLY depends on "WHAT is the purpose of the newbie queue?"
You gotta ask the right questions.ShowHave retired for good; Life is too busy to have time or energy for mafia. It was fun~
And then, a Miracle, a Dance Game and a flight of fancy struck, one more game into the abyss
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Hey guys I have a question
WHAT is the purpose of the newbie queue?Hey all! Excited and nervous to play my first game with you!
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- Introduce players to forum mafia - more specifically introduce them to how mafia is played on our siteIrrelephant11 wrote:Hey guys I have a question
WHAT is the purpose of the newbie queue?
- Create an experience that leads to them returning for more games, eventually branching out to other queues/areas of the site and retaining them long term.<(") | (")>- Cabd
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In post 121, PenguinPower wrote:retaining them long term.ShowHave retired for good; Life is too busy to have time or energy for mafia. It was fun~
And then, a Miracle, a Dance Game and a flight of fancy struck, one more game into the abyss
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Stacking the setup in favor of town achieves "eventually branching out to other queues/areas" but not "retaining them long term". If we're giving out majority wins because some players only have fun when they win, they will be the sort to replace out of games they are losing, leading to full site flake or, worse, not leaving the site and replacing out all the time.
Keeping powerful roles like sane cop in the newbie setup isn't a good strategy either. I just got out of Krazy's large theme and it was super wacky and yada yada but there was 1 three shot investigative in a large theme with only one of the abilities as strong as sane cop, and that is in a large. So running 9 player games with an ungated cop is not actually representative of site play even if these players are going to move onto our stuff on the role-madnessier end of the spectrum. The simplicity of these setups works against them, we can't have millers because it's not a closed game and the miller would become named, so as a result we are literally putting a role in the game where every game after that the player is never going to experience a role as powerful as that. And it's supposed to be representative for discerning which players are going to fit well here long term?"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"- Irrelephant11
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I think this ^ (making scum abilities factional rather than assigning them to a slot) would be a good simple change if we're looking to keep things relatively similar to the way they are but help scum out a bit.
--> You could alternatively add a rule like "all power roles stop working after night 2" because scum PRs on night 3+ are usually too little too late to be helpful and town PRs past N2 are often gamebreaking in town's favor
If we're looking to really overhaul the setup somewhat to represent how MS likes diffused/complex town and scum power (because swinginess and follow the cop are bad), then I think it could be interesting to, say, make next month's setup challenge a "design a new newbie" challenge and see if that gets us anywhere helpful.Hey all! Excited and nervous to play my first game with you!
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