Open 755: Two-Fold C9++ (GAME OVER)

[skitter30]

You know, thats actually really green. Terrible, but green

yeah i don't think scum suggest that here really

[skitter30]

Persivul – 4/9 – Skygazer, Shoshin, Vorkuta, Irrelephant11

i still townread everyone on here except maybe irrel but i don't really think persi is scum here so

[skitter30]

@mod:

Vla till monday. Limited access today and tomorrow, no access saturday or sunday

[skitter30]

@mod:

Vla till monday. Limited access today and tomorrow, no access saturday or sunday

Noted! I'm sure we'll be lenient over the Easter weekend

Well passover but sure

Also can penguin be prodded again?

[skitter30]

Skitter said she townreads Buj for non-consensus reads and I pointed out that if your slot is scum, buj can kinda have whatever reads will make the slot look towny, since you’re the hydra head more people are listening to. That’s the only reason I brought up your reads being kinda consensus-y, which for you I’m not sure is AI in this context

again, i kinda townread buj but i dont' townread the slot holistically

[skitter30]

?? why

Im just trying to pick irre's head. If chem flips red in multiball, is chen more likely town to irre?

Is chen being oppurtunist?

If chemist flips red, Chen is probably not red
Could be green, could be orange, idk

why? because of how he either l-1'd or l-2'd chem earlier?

[skitter30]

Sheep the duck!

you realize that he's voting you, right?

[skitter30]

@mod:

Vla till monday. Limited access today and tomorrow, no access saturday or sunday

Noted! I'm sure we'll be lenient over the Easter weekend

Well passover but sure

Also can penguin be prodded again?

ftr i think that penguin repeatedly flaking/lurking for very long periods of time (ie on the order of 3 or 4 days) is scum-indicative for him

[skitter30]

I can see why you and a couple others are townreading him, though I think the reasons are kinda meh (iirc you're townreading him for being upset that you scumread him based on false meta? I've gotten genuinely upset about that as scum before. And others are townreading him for hunting, which, multiball)

well a few things:

1. i think that he reacted to pressure differently than how he did in prey, namely that he was super *not* survivalistic here, which i associate with town (and i think survivalism is a tell that ought to work just as well in multiball as in singleball)

2. he literally wanted to start a 1v1 with me at a time when i was already highly townread, for the purpose of analyzing how his wagon built - and in the process he didn't mind getting lynched!. i don't think that after prey scum!him ever thinks that he's winning a 1v1 with me here (and he even recognized that here and said he didn't really think that he was going to and that wasnt' even the goal; he wanted to see how the resulting wagon played out)

3. he's actually, like, scumhunting here, in comparison to prey, where a lot of his questions/thread-presence felt a lot more like busy work

all of this together makes me find scum!percy unlikely. i'm not really interested in joining the wagon rn *even if* i townread everyone on it because i don't, like, actually scumread him

[skitter30]

Putting all of that^ another way, if Persivul is town why does his wagon stall out after four townies?

skitter wanna do an experiment with me and vote persivul for a bit?

idk why the wagon is stalling, but no

[skitter30]

would anyone like to wagon penguin with me?

[skitter30]

VOTE: penguin

[skitter30]

Did u really not check the thread since sunday ...

[skitter30]

VOTE: Percy

And no

[skitter30]

No offense but popping in half an hour after getting wagoned for lurking for four days is not a good look

[skitter30]

I'm like getting on a plane so i'll have tp continue this later but i'm incredibly dubious that you havent opened the thread this whole time; you havent posted since sunday, and, like, you know yhat this site usually has 2 day prod timers (this game 3 days i think but whatever)

[skitter30]

I kinda tbink that the speed of the wagon was kinda sketchy but i also think that penguin's reaction was god-awful so. Like the game has been going on for two weeks, he's been inactive for half of that, and i think his reads are .... incredibly underwhelming given the stage of the game and the amount of content we have at this point

A lot of lurkers coming out of yhe woodwork to vote him is ?????? Tho; i agree with irrel that there's probably scum in the like five or so votes

Iirc they were: dave, sky, beazu, dunn, fuscosco

I think i like them in this order: fuscosco > dave > sky > dunn = beazu

I kinda changed my mind on fuscosco and i think he might be town now actually

[skitter30]

Sure it was. No new solid read atm.

I have two questions out that I still want answered.

I think I have one for chenn but not sure how to phrase it atm.

Also:

A) i feel like this flashwagon is something of note, and is something he can def use to form reads - i dislike that it hasnt really impacted his reads much at all. I feel like town getting flashwagoned tries to find if any scum are pushing it but he's not. Like it hasnt seemed to have any impact to his approach to the game

B) why are these two questions important

C) i feel like scum!you is significantly more likely to lurk and/or go inactive and/or deprioritize this game

[skitter30]

Lol why was no one playing until a Penguin wagon showed up
UNVOTE: i don’t trust scum to not get trigger happy

Hi PP
Got any new reads? Your wagon was intteresting

If scum is on the wagon where's the scum that are going to lolhammer?

[skitter30]

Your confidence and ability to scumcase town
Also I think we distanced well in our scum game together

I'm coming around to you being more likely town (or skitter's scum) but I don't think you're someone who's an easy read

Why are you coming around to town!persy?

[skitter30]

Diffusion of power for town!you

The game i modded for scum!you

[skitter30]

that reaction from pp is crap

I agree with this, but on the other hand wouldn't scum... you know... try harder?
Man I'm gonna look scummy if Penguin flips red but

I just feel really bad about the way this wagon has gone down so far,

page 60 is like the definition of opportunism
I guess there's enough scum in this game that this speedy wagon isn't

necessarily

town indicative for Penguin, but it still feels like it

probably

is

... what did you think was going to come out of a pressure flashwagon?

[skitter30]

@mod:

Vla till monday. Limited access today and tomorrow, no access saturday or sunday

Noted! I'm sure we'll be lenient over the Easter weekend

Well passover but sure

Also can penguin be prodded again?

No need

Also sorry, I meant no disrespect for anyone's beliefs of course! I just don't know all the holidays and their names.

All's good!

[skitter30]

I think i like them in this order

Which form of "like" in this case?

I dont know what you're asking, sorry

[skitter30]

Point C is correct though, but I can't help it when that's not the reason why.

And in diffusion of power u got *soooo* annoyed that you were the day1 compromise wagon (tbf at least in oart because u were a n2 doc iirc) but like there's none od that annoyance here. (And that's why i stayed off the wagon there, i thought the annoyance was townie)

And you're also not addressing how none od your reads seem to be affected by the flashwagon

[skitter30]

I think i like them in this order

Which form of "like" in this case?

I dont know what you're asking, sorry

like for town, like for scum, like the vote etc

Like for town, sorry

[skitter30]

i thought the outrage was coming from a place more like 'wow you guys are all idiots for scumreading me here', not at that he actually had to claim

@penguin: i remember you being incredibly annoyed at getting lolwagoned there

[skitter30]

Ok...well, I'm telling you why I was annoyed.

Ok. So do you think the wagon on you has merit rn?

[skitter30]

Well it was based on your absence, now i think it's a real vote.

And so we're circling back to: i'm kinda surprised at the lack of annoyance you're exhibiting here- you're saying you were annoyed there because not mafia was leading a lolwagon on you but you dont think this wagon has merit either

[skitter30]

Ok, i get that you're trying to say now wrt annoyance - you werent annoyed that you were getting wagoned so much as notmafia managed to get you to be wagoned

Still dont like ur lack of reads or the fact that your wagon hasnt seem to have impacted them much

I didnt read the pedits and i gotta bounce now. Might be around later, if not wont be around till sunday night

[skitter30]

Hello i'm on vacation and limited access today and tomorrow, no access friday and saturday, and then again limited access sunday and monday.

I will def be able to post between now and monday, but not necessarily regularly

I'll be around at some point (probably much) later today

[skitter30]

ok catching up now, i'll try not to spam

[skitter30]

Let's mass claim today yeah?

why are you so adamantly pushing massclaim?

==

VOTE: dunnstral
I am ambivalent about massclaim
I’m not sure how we’d decide an order though

Why dunn?

Because imo dunnstral and penguin were playing the same lurky game for most of D1
When we wagoned Penguin, every scummy lurker came out of the woodwork to vote him (including dunnstral)
When we wagoned Dunnstral, we couldn't get a third vote and chemist almost immediately got lynched

overnight i was actually thinking that i wanted to start today voting dunn

i feel like he's lurking through the game but is involved enough to know when to hop onto happening wagons (both penguin and chemist). i don't like that a major part of his play this game has been bandwagoning

i don't remember dunn getting wagoned tho

==

dave, penguin, creature, persivul, skitter, Vorkuta, please vote dunnstral

btw I've decided persivul might be scum but I would heavily scumread skitter if so
their d1 play actually reminds me a little of how persivul and I used our meta history to distance as scum, and persivul didn't know for most of d1 that I would rep in and see it, so it's plausible he'd repeat what worked for him then
but also maybe they're both just town and that's what I'm gonna go with for now

a) remind me of your reads on dave, penguin, and creature?

b) persy's town; i don't think he interacts with me this way if he's scum (ie picking a 1v1 with me earlier that he thinks he's going to lose so that he can analyze how his wagon builds as he goes down).

(i also don't think that scum!me has ever really strongly townread a teammate. at least, if i have done so it's not coming to mind rn. i tend to want to bus and/or heavily distance)

or even reading on: the way he keeps deferring/referring to me and creature is just .... a really weird way for scum!him to approach this game tbh

==

dave, penguin, creature, persivul, skitter, Vorkuta, please vote dunnstral

I'd like to see what creature and skitter have to say about this.

i was thinking pretty similarly to irrel overnight wrt dunn actually

==

FTR the fact scum makes up 42% of the game on D2 after a successful nightkill block of some sort is really annoying
I usually trust open setups but I might just not like this one
Even if we lynch correctly the nightkills could bring us to 6v3v2 tomorrow which is even more stupid
Yeah I'm annoyed, but
I'll suck it up I guess

yeah i kinda operate under the assumption that open multiball games aren't particularly balanced and that town could get screwed on sheer numbers despite playing well.

==

a successful nightkill block of some sort

Or both factions targeted sky.

sky's a pretty weird double nk here given yesterday's gamestate

==

how do you feel about the fact they both wanted the chemist lynch

Not warm and fuzzy. Seems like they both should have been calling chemist LHF rather than pushing him.

i thought he was scum
disliked his reads, and disliked how he kept promising content and never delivering. disliked how he didn't seem to know what his own opinions were.
his posts were all tonally awful.
many of his observations were incredibly surface-level to the point that they didn't feel real
i most probably would have voted there eod yesterday if i was around and not on vla

==

ok got up to the chenn cop claim, new post

[skitter30]

I fucking told you guys.

VOTE: rosterfoster

I am one-shot cop and I got MAFIA!

That’s funny. I’m a 1-shot seer and I got NOT HUMAN

VOTE: Chenn

chenn's claim is about a bajillion times more believable than this

also fuscosco is pretty townie imo

[skitter30]

Oh look you all disappear when you realise Chenn is fakeclaiming.

i mean, really?

[skitter30]

It's still possible they're co-scum doing the hardbus btw
I'm also staring at the setup list to see if they could be opposing scum and the answer is yes (if, say, chennis is a werewolf role seer who saw that roster has a mafia-only role)

i would be pretty surprised if they were scum together actually

they could be opposing scum i guess but i'm not really feeling it either

[skitter30]

Or Maybe Chenn is just scum who rolecopped me?

i mean, fine. suppose chenn is a wolf who rolecopped town!seer!you.

he decides to fake-claim a guilty on you because .....

if the above scenario is true and he manages to get town!you lynched he's just going to eat a lynch for his trouble tomorrow (and trading 1v1 is always a horrible idea for scum)

[skitter30]

Especially since I’m only a 1shot. I would have crumbed a result today though if Chenn didn’t try to steal my thunder.

Also Chenn would have known that I was going to target him, so it makes sense to try to get the jump.

Makes sense actually.

uh if you're 1s you just claim a guilty, literally no reason to crumb the result. and why would chenn have known that you were going to target him

[skitter30]

Ultimately roster I need you to recognize that you're dying this gameday and that the most useful thing you can do regardless of your alignment is find scum

eh this is kinda townie from irrel

[skitter30]

Both could be scum.

Yeah I pointed this out a page or two ago and I feel like it might be true

still not vibing this really.
kinda think chenn is town now

[skitter30]

meant dunnstral :/

Now this just looks like really bad damage control

pedit- I was just about to ask that again

elaborate

[skitter30]

Prodge. I'm too tired and sick to catchup. I understand we have two conflicting claims, so everyone should be voting for one of them eventually.

-BuJ

i'm sorry to hear this, i hope you feel better soon

[skitter30]

rosterfoster – 5/8 – Fuscosco, chennisden, Persivul, PenguinPower, Baezu

VOTE: roster l-2

i think roster is infinitely more likely to be scum than chenn here.

before the day ends we should definitely make sure everyone checks in, and probably talk about the nk and the implications thereof. i kinda want to force dunn to talk about the game and give reads because atm i am not particularly liking his play thus far.

[skitter30]

Gg everyone!

Kinda sad that i couldn't figure out how to not get myself nk'd

[skitter30]

I did not

I had no idea who the traitor was, actually

Also aside i'm p sure that the interscum balancing needs some work in this setup, which i've mentioned elsewhere

[skitter30]

[skitter30]

The game needs a proper Night 0 phase for confirmation and power choices. Also, the number of confirmations shouldn't be publicized until said phase ends. Doing otherwise opens the door for people to angleshoot alignments based on timing, which isn't good; scum are at an inherent disadvantage in such a situation.

yeah you started the game i think *minutes* after i said i wanted the gf-equivalent - it was pretty obvious to me that you had just been waiting for me so i think that if i really wanted to i could have at least partially done some research and some angleshooting to try to figure out who else had to make n0 choices

[skitter30]

There should be mutual knowledge between the Traitor and mainscum. This game alone is probably the strongest case for why. There's always gonna be revealing mechanics in a ++ setup, but Traitor/Defector as they stand are way too likely to be a keystone for their team due to the unique associatives they create –

making them a liability instead of the help they were intended to be.

what do you mean by 'mutual knowledge' here?

i talked about the bolded in one of the pt's i was in for this game at some point

[skitter30]

The Roleblocker/Role Cop choice doesn't seem to really be a choice; RB wins the day. As discussed in the Mafia thread, Roleblocker looks objectively superior, as in a multiball setup not only are you able to nullify claimed roles, but also possibly the opposing kill. This is borne out in offsite runs of this game too; in all the ones I was able to dig up I don't think I ever saw a Role Cop choice. Not sure could replace it to make for a legitimate option, though...my first thought is Watcher, but I'd like to hear your ideas too.

i think a shot-limited watcher could work in this setup imo

[skitter30]

This suggests Watcher is more powerful than RB; could you elaborate on this? Knowing relative power is critical in judging how many shots to give.

i feel like they could find a bunch of prs (and/or killing!opposing!team scum) in one night, which is pretty powerful
i really have no idea how to judge comparitive balance, saying i think shot-limited is better was kinda gut

[skitter30]

Subject: Open 755 – The Skittish Diary of Skitter30

so in this setup i think having a traitor is really, really, really tricky - i'd almost prefer for that to not be a thing. eh maybe not. trying to decide
but basically in single-ball with a traitor i'd assume that a scummy person was my traitor. in multiball i'd assume that a scummy person is scum
here i have to diffrentiate between different types of scumminess - i found someone scummy - are they my traitor or on the other team? should i be trying to lynch them or prevent them from being lynched? the traitor could maybe signal back to me but it adds an extra level of complexity in how i'm trying to read this game.

i need to identify townies, mafia, and my own traitor, so there's like three levels i need to be trying ot read this game on.

[skitter30]

yeah i was kinda thinking that a 2way traitor is basically a goon who can't talk at night - it's not like we had daytalk anyways

[skitter30]

from my pov playing with an unknown traitor was p hard beause i couldn't tell if scummy people were: scum on my team, scum on the other team, or scummy town

the other team didn't have to worry about that