Open 73 - Assassin in the Palace (Game Over!) before 595

[jtdyer]

I knew it! I was wondering if the whole 'Oman isn't getting in trouble thing' is because Oman was the assassin, and I was surprised he floated the whole game; but there wasn't really enough for me to get him voted, he just 'felt' scummy, and everybody said no about instincts. I don't want you guys to have to look back too much, but any tips on how I could have played better?

[PokerFace]

I think you did fine jtdyer.

I suppose I kinda wish you had followed your instincts or pushed with me on oman on day3. instincts are not really bad in this game, its a matter of how you convey them in order to decide which information gets out. Hell you could have just said "I agree with poker and dahill, vote oman" and we wouldn't have gone at you. Thats how the quick wagons work in this game.

Only things you did wrong was lurk a little and some of your comments toward dahill looked like buddying but that may have been a good thing since he wasn't the king. Still you got to mess with wifom in respect to all players. 178 doesn't just make you look like the king since you weren't voted, it also makes everyone else look more like guards so the wine is being equally distributed. MCD fosing and not voting you made me think he thought you were king. And anybody that thought you were the king could not know the real king. I guess the real reason he fosed was who all got on your wagon then.

My last in game post also says 3 players were guilty of setuping lynches. I was throwing suspicion equally everywhere. Thats what you got to do you can't single anyone out of just attack one person if you are using wifom. I should have never said "Why is farside lurking" without voting her and dahill should have never said she was next after jester while he was voting me. Him not following through with setuping that lynch i'm sure sent up a red flag for Oman on who was king.

I think you did pretty good jtdyer. We should not have lynched you that quickly. Heck in AITP in theme park yosarian says you should let all players check in before you do the quick lynch. We certainly should have been doing that more too in this game.

[Rishi]

Final Vote Count

dahill1 - 2 (farside22, Oman)
Oman - 1 (dahill1)

dahill1, Guard, Lynched Day 7

The king stabbed the last guard furiously. "All dead," he cried! "I win. I mean, we win. Good job, man. You were with me to the end." The king put a firm, yet comforting hand on the assassin. Soon the affectionate gesture was turned sour as the king needed the assassin's shoulder for support. "Why? You were so loyal. If it was about the money, I could have given you the gold." The assassin smiled and said, "Who said it was about the money?"

farside22, King, Killed in Endgame

Oman, Assassin, Wins!

[Rishi]

Well, since some people have addressed some of the comments about the modding, you have to look at it from my perspective. I had looked at the earlier incarnation of AITP, but didn't really notice the rule about discussing the king's identity. I was in a bit of a bind when Oman blurted out that farside was the king. If he was a guard, I would have considered modkilling him for discussing his role PM, but I knew that wasn't really an option. I could either let the game continue as-is, reboot the game with new roles, or try to do damage control.

The damage control, in my opinion, was the best solution. I agree that the rule about not discussing the king's identity should have been in place since the beginning, but it wasn't. It's easy to say, in hindsight, that the rule should have been in place. But, you all had a chance to look at the rules in pre-game, and a couple people PMed me with rules suggestions, which I happily implemented. No one had really talked about the king's identity rule, though, until farside PMed me telling me the game had been ruined. At that point, I had to do something.

The funny thing is, if you got Oman earlier, the guards/king would have won. Oman PMed me on Day 3 or 4 telling me he was convinced that Shamrock was the king.

Anyway, I think it's easy to blame yourselves or to blame me for your loss, but you have to admit, Oman played fairly well. Anyway, congrats on your victory. Hope you all had fun.

[PokerFace]

I don't see how Oman ever thought Shamrock was the king. Didn't we run him up to L-1 on day 1. Why would we do that to the king? Oman was second on that wagon not the one that put him at L-1.

Is that what he pmed you when he mentioned pming you about me? Your responce to his comment felt out of rythm some but not really troublesome.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 22#1078622

I would have gone with a game reset since things had just started. That would be best damage control since things had just begun. I considered the option of you not modkilling him because he was assassin thing but kind threw it out. Him saying farside was king on irc would have been considered something between a null to scum tell on IRC. Probably would have been called an act of foolishness since guards shouldn't have a need to confirm themselves.

I told Rishi about the no fake suicide bombing and another rule I can't remember right now. I didn't mention the say kings name rule since that is allowed on irc and that thing did not phase me much at that time considering how I went at oman day 3. Dahill unvoting him is what phased me then. So i got some doubts because of other suspicions and people's reactions. I should have responded to that better I guess.

All in all I guess you did just ok under those circumstances, but I think I would have prefered the reset.

[Oman]

Yep its true, you guys would've won if you'd speedlynched me when you suggested it.

The game was ruined at that point,

No it wasn't, I made a play that was not against the rules, and you guys cleared me too early. There were a few areas when you should've lynched me, but I got away from them.

At least you know I was noble when I was trying to get Oman modkilled for cheating. Distinction my ass.

There is a heavy distinction! Korlash said "Poker IS the king" I said that "Korlash could've been fakeclaiming guard as king. Not saying he is or isn't, only that he could've" it was more a game theory discussion than what he did.

We should have lynched Oman back on day three when I brought that stuff up on him.

Yup!

but if I had I feared I would let too much out especially after dahill unvoted him.

Yeah! I said Shamrock should chime in and dahill unvoted.

Dahill: why did you unvote me there?

It was 3 to lynch and Oman just put Farside at L-1 on day 6. No guard would ever put the King at L-1.

Damn straight! I would have gone after me right then and there.

The shenanigans rule should have been around from the start.

Yep, but it wasn't. I wasn't even aware that that was a rule on the other games.

Poker: you said you caught me with a trap there, what was that?

Oman I'm nominating you for best single killer. (or whatever comes close to that discription) for this game.

YAY!

In general I don't think I'll support Oman's nomination only because he got lucky in some respects with game rules.

Total Bullshit! I played this game well! There were times where I could've been lynched but I played out of them. Don't take this away from me because you're upset about this.

Hey Oman what did you PM rishi about earlier in the game? Rishi acknowledging that comment threw things off a bit too in your favor.

I PMed him Korlash's one, to get him modkilled.

[Korlash]

Naw rishi. Don't blame you for our lose. As mod your allowed to do whatever you want. i actually blame myself for not following the stupid rule in the first place.

Oh well next time ill be the assassin and poker will be the king and he'll have to let me win cause he owes me ha ha ha ha... >.>

[Korlash]

I PMed him Korlash's one, to get him modkilled.

You dirty bastard lol...

Eh i woulda done the same to you I suppose... >.>

[Oman]

I PMed him Korlash's one, to get him modkilled.

You dirty bastard lol...

Eh i woulda done the same to you I suppose... >.>

If you were the assassin you would've.

[dahill1]

Dahill: why did you unvote me there?

it was pretty much the farside comment and this

Especially because starting a wagon on a king can give away an assasin in a heartbeat. Even though it could be a guard throwing the scum off.

which i thought was an obvious crumb that you were attempting to throw off the assassin by pushing a farside lynch

[Oman]

Ha! Nice.

[PokerFace]

Poker: you said you caught me with a trap there, what was that?.

The trap was partially meant as disorientation to confuse you as I lynched you to keep kings identity secret. And partly because of the following statement. I apoligize if the logic here is confusing. The trap MCD walked into made it look

like

he thought jtdyer was king. You never reacted to said trap in the first place. You saying you understand could not have meant you understood because you never acknowledged that there was a trap, and therefore set a trap for yourself that you were clearly supporting a reasonless lynch without acknowledging the fact that MCD did not appear to know who the king was. And you not realizing his actions gave the impression on not knowing the king meant that

you were really the one who did not know who the king was!

If you can't understand that logic it is cool especially when you consider there must have been other reasons why MCD just fosed.

In general I don't think I'll support Oman's nomination only because he got lucky in some respects with game rules.

Total Bullshit! I played this game well! There were times where I could've been lynched but I played out of them. Don't take this away from me because you're upset about this.

You misunderstand I am not upset. You did play well. I already said gg to you. You did deserve to win considering some of the various ways we let things slip. Read this thread again and see alot of things that should have told you Farside was king ahead of time. BUT luck was a factor in your victory. You said you said that as a gambit and it working to your advantage was luck. Had you won without some luck at your side, I'd be more than happy to support your nomination. Real champions worthy of recognition crush their opponants easily without difficulty or luck to save them.

Getting Korlash modkilled was shrewd. I would have waited for the mod to step in and not pmed him imediatly. The mod didn't imediatly kill you. Even though that rule wasn't around back then. Getting him imediatly killed was kinda hypocritical. Pot calling kettle black
http://ganjataz.com/general-bollocks/im ... -black.jpg

And Korlash I think I'd look forward to a game like that. I owe you for Loser Mafia and I should have pushed for an Oman lynching day2 over your lynching. I guessed Dahill unvoted you for those reasons and therefore was torn about staying on you. I made the wrong response to dahill's action. I wonder if I could have made the right responce to get you then without allowing you to dwell on the fact you were voting farside. Most likly dahill would not have supported my lynch of you for those reasons and if I can't get others to vote you I can't get you lynched. There is no I in lynch or in team. oh well

[The Jester]

No distinction. In a sense there is, you say something tastes good, I say it's delicious. Still the same thing.

Could've vs. Is. It's still talking who could be or not be the king.

Poker is the king. Or. Poker could've been fake-claiming guard as king.

Key point: Saying King. If you mention king in that aspect it's WIFOMing who the king is/is not. Both of those go against that added rule.

I concur that we should have started over, re-shuffled and fixed the rules.

Very simple. Also the luck part. I admit, I thought people would lynch me for trying to get Oman modkilled, but I think it's unfair to not modkill someone for doing in general the same thing. Even if it's the assassin. That just means they have to make their attack at that point anyways.

[mith]

I'm not sure I understand the reason that rule was in place at all. There's no reason the guards/king shouldn't be able to WIFOM the assassin regarding the identity of the king directly. They do so at their own risk - they might give the assassin information. The only reason I can think of to have that rule is so a player doesn't ruin the game by throwing a tantrum and revealing everything he knows - but that's a danger anyway, the threat of modkilling isn't really going to deter it. If someone does it, we ban them and move on, but all games have to operate under the assumption that players aren't going to ruin games like that; Mafia doesn't work at all, otherwise.

Maybe pj will weigh in on this, I'd be interested to hear why it was a rule in his game.

That said, adding that particular rule after Oman's gambit and continuing the game was probably a bad idea.

[Rishi]

That said, adding that particular rule after Oman's gambit and continuing the game was probably a bad idea.

I did check with Thesp at the time the incident occurred, and he said that the way I handled it was probably the best thing to do. It's not like I could've asked the players at that point if a reset was proper.

[PokerFace]

Hmm. I just thought of something. There is another way to look at that situation...

Farside PMed you and said game was ruined. As a result you made a rule. Because you responded to her claim you partially acknowledged her claim the game was ruined. Every action has a reaction. You gave her the impression Oman was a guard by responding to her claim. And making the rule kinda swayed others to thinking that too. Had Oman been a guard the town would now have the advantage of having 2 confirmed players as non-assassins. Oman being assassin gets bigtime advantage because some people thought he was confirmed. Sure I didn't consider him confirmed because of that one action but other players did. Responding with that rule part way was guaranteed to tip the odds in someone's favor. Reset was the way to go regardless of oman's role.

But don't take this the wrong way Rishi. I think you did ok because that indeed is a tricky situation. I still blame myself for some aspects of this loss.

[Oman]

BUT luck was a factor in your victory.

Isn't luck a factor in all victories?

Getting Korlash modkilled was shrewd. I would have waited for the mod to step in and not pmed him imediatly. The mod didn't imediatly kill you. Even though that rule wasn't around back then. Getting him imediatly killed was kinda hypocritical. Pot calling kettle black

I didn't break a rule, I make sure that all my gambits are within the rules. Korlash, however, made the play AFTER the rule came in, with full knowledge of consequences.

It wasn't hypocritical as I was unknowingly breaking a non-retroactive rule that was to come in a later date, where he was know exactly the penalty for his actions.

I did ask Rishi to sit on it for a while, I wanted to see it play out.

No distinction. In a sense there is, you say something tastes good, I say it's delicious. Still the same thing.

No, its really not. I made it very VERY clear that I was not suggesting Korlash's role, whereas Korlash came right out and said that someone was the king.

Key point: Saying King. If you mention king in that aspect it's WIFOMing who the king is/is not. Both of those go against that added rule.

Read the rule again:

Shenanigans that I won't stand for include:
1. Making a real or fake claim about someone being the king.

I did neither. I said that just because Korlash claims doesn't mean his is a guard.

To tell you the truth, Korlash could've been fakeclaiming guard as king.

NOTE: I am not saying he is or isn't, just that he could've.

I made it quite clear that it was a theory discussion and not a unique player discussion.


I applaud Rishi for having the head to ask Thesp, though I agree a reshuffle might have taken away this hollow victory.

Now it feels pointless.

[PokerFace]

BUT luck was a factor in your victory.

Isn't luck a factor in all victories?

Getting Korlash modkilled was shrewd. I would have waited for the mod to step in and not pmed him imediatly. The mod didn't imediatly kill you. Even though that rule wasn't around back then. Getting him imediatly killed was kinda hypocritical. Pot calling kettle black

I didn't break a rule, I make sure that all my gambits are within the rules. Korlash, however, made the play AFTER the rule came in, with full knowledge of consequences.

It wasn't hypocritical as I was unknowingly breaking a non-retroactive rule that was to come in a later date, where he was know exactly the penalty for his actions.

I did ask Rishi to sit on it for a while, I wanted to see it play out.

Did you or did you not imediatly pm Rishi and suggest a Mod killing of Korlash? You said you did and thus you were making a judgement call that the mod should have soul privlage to control. And in retrospect asking him to sit on it for awhile is like saying "I want him to be alive longer to tell me more." You should have sent Rishi no message at all and let him deal with it by himself.

Luck is not involved in all victories. There are some games on this site where scum have won without being voted outside of random vote day. And all scum got run up with perfect town wins. BUT despite not supporting you for a scummy I will acknowledge that you put some hardwork into this game. Good job.

[Oman]

Did you or did you not imediatly pm Rishi and suggest a Mod killing of Korlash? You said you did and thus you were making a judgement call that the mod should have soul privlage to control. And in retrospect asking him to sit on it for awhile is like saying "I want him to be alive longer to tell me more." You should have sent Rishi no message at all and let him deal with it by himself.

It was an assassin move. I will not say that as a guard I would have done that. I certainly wouldn't've. I took on the role of the assassin, and while it was probably arrogant I just wanted to point it out. As a mod, sometimes I don't read every word in a post like that, and I like it when players PM me and make my decision easier.

The Jester made the same play trying to get me modkilled

Luck is not involved in all victories. There are some games on this site where scum have won without being voted outside of random vote day. And all scum got run up with perfect town wins. BUT despite not supporting you for a scummy I will acknowledge that you put some hardwork into this game. Good job.

Luck in mafia is so my next mini-essay.

[PokerFace]

Well it is my personal opinion that no player should suggest a modkilling so I guess Jester was wrong too. I made some posts that suggested other players were the king too, but I did not flat out say X is king. So yes there is a difference between what you did, what I did, and what Korlash did. Clarification is the only thing Jester should have gotten facts on. Overall suggesting any action to a Mod during a game will effect a game in some ways.

I may actually take the time to read that essay for there have been times where luck has saved my ass aswell.

[PokerFace]

PMing a mod to say ____ has happen or a vote count is wrong is ok.

Saying I suggest you should respond by doing ______ is wrong. Especially if _____ is go on a mod killing.

[Oman]

This was the PM:

1. Making a real or fake claim about someone being the king.

so unless someone screws up and tells him/her poker is the king

PLEASE don't attach my name to this. And if you can sit on this for a day or so so that I can pull some info from it.

I see what you mean about no player suggesting it though.

[Voodo]

Hmmmm. Seemed like a good game. Too bad I was lynched Day 1. XD

[The Jester]

The only reason I suggested it was from what I remembered of the rule it felt to be the same way. I should have re-read the rule first, but I had the gist of it. It seemed like the same thing to me. So we can all just say, should have reset.

Sorry Voodo.

[Rishi]

If the powers that be agree, I am okay modding this game over again with the same players and new roles.