Large Normal 221 - Endgame

[Kublai Khan]

VOTE: Kirari Momobami

Obvious.

[Kublai Khan]

Sorry sorry sorry sorry

Why the apology?

[Kublai Khan]

Eh. VOTE: Vorkuta

Scummier.

[Kublai Khan]

Yeah, but playing a character is just a lie in a game of lie detection. The sooner he drops the gimmick the better.

[Kublai Khan]

Eh. VOTE: Vorkuta

Scummier.

This is going to be a fun game

Not here for fun. I'm here to win. Just admit you're scum and make it easier on everyone.

[Kublai Khan]

lol, you think a gimmick alt is going to drop his gimmick?

Eh, new rule says I can't ask them to quit. So it's all I can do.

[Kublai Khan]

VOTE: Kirari Momobami

First instinct was correct. Shouldn't doubt myself.

[Kublai Khan]

We all know he's an imposter

Oh, I get it now. Because of the avatar.

[Kublai Khan]

The idea that there is a "random voting stage" is mafia is the dumbest most enduring myth on this site.

[Kublai Khan]

The idea that there is a "random voting stage" is mafia is the dumbest most enduring myth on this site.

Why? There is one.
At least I do it. I don't know about you.

Aw, there's a town attitude.

Scum's opening votes aren't random because they already know who is friend and who is foe. So they have to fake it.

Always scumhunt from post 1 onward.

[Kublai Khan]

Sure I get that. I still think it exists because town does it. Not saying you can't scumhunt in it, but I felt some of the reaction from Nero was excessive. 101 in particular

I don't find either of your reactions weird. At most, you're a little defensive.

[Kublai Khan]

@Nero Cain, how did you pick your "scum list" anyways?

[Kublai Khan]

@Nero Cain, how did you pick your "scum list" anyways?

just a bunch of players that hadn't posted. TBF, OFrhz did post while I was typing but I didn't feel like changing it for him.

Eh.. ohrhz and rosterfoster had both already posted, but the other two hadn't.

[Kublai Khan]

Kublai pushing NC list seems opportunistic imo.
VOTE: Kublai Khan

Irony.

VOTE: Kirari Momobami

Obvious.

Are you counterclaiming?

Are you fishing?

People that make exaggerated claims in their first post are slighly more likely to be excited scum.

Eh I mean I was probably bothered by that

Yes let’s just say I was

If I write my book about how not to play mafia, stuff like this will get it's own chapter.

Your cageyness is obnoxious. Say what you mean.

[Kublai Khan]

@Mod - Could you post a vote count please?

[Kublai Khan]

Yeah, I'm hip to be square.

VOTE: RedFlavor

He's in my top 4.

[Kublai Khan]

Kublai pushing NC list seems opportunistic imo.
VOTE: Kublai Khan

Mostly this

I didn't think the sorry thing was scummy though

I think many of you are misunderstanding the meaning of push here. I feel like Red is obviously referring to 132 and 137.

No, I think we all got that. But placing a vote for it and calling it opportunistic was itself sketchy and opportunistic af.

I never voted for Nero Cain or even called him scummy. I was just asking a question because it was a weird grouping of 4 in the LIVS (I like your term).

[Kublai Khan]

Red youve got 8 or so votes on you. its 10 to lynch.

Well, 6 votes before ofrhz blanched and bailed.

[Kublai Khan]

Add me to the group of people that sense strong scum-vibes coming off Montosh.

[Kublai Khan]

Ugh. It's been a while since my last game. Is this the part of the game where he have a lull where nobody wants to push anyone hard enough for a claim, so we just kind fluff and meekly limp along until a deadline starts to coalesce?

[Kublai Khan]

Eh. We still have 12 days til deadline and a couple people to join the game yet.

Yeah, I'm hip to be square.

VOTE: RedFlavor

He's in my top 4.

Who else is in your top 4?

It's early, but..

Kirari Momobami
- Silly fakeclaims as first post
- Over-meta
RedFlavour
- Jumping on self-voter bandwagon in second post
- Ignored mason claim.
- 147 - states confusion over NC's list. But doesn't vote for me until ater an exchange with pisskop where he votes RedFlavor. Feels like RedFlavor's KK vote is more distraction/deflection.
Montosh
- Ignored mason claim.
- Anti town-tells
- Anti RedFlavor-wagon for the sake of being against a wagon.
Vorkuta
- Jumping on self-voter bandwagon
- Weird Post 22.
- Weird Post 238.

Outskirts:
rosterfoster
- Just don't understand his reasoning for doing things.
EvilDeanius
- Totally Beetlejuiced in with fluff.

[Kublai Khan]

Im mason

Anyone who has played with Saudade before knows not to take this seriously. So anything about this is NAI IMO.

If RedFlavor and Montosh knew that Saudade always said that and it means nothing, then decided to keep this information to themselves as other players blasted Saudade, then it is Alignment Indicative. It advances the scum's goal of keeping town against town.

[Kublai Khan]

- Anti town-tells

The post I think you’re referring to I know is personal opinion because *reasons* so isn’t scummy in the slightest

It refers to Post 99.

Is there a reason that you've appointed yourself as Montosh's lawyer and/or spokesperson?

[Kublai Khan]

- Anti RedFlavor-wagon for the sake of being against a wagon.

Where? I don’t see much of that at all. If you’re talking about his latest post then I see that as not liking the people on the wagon.

I don’t see why any of your reasons make Montosh scummy.

Montosh's actual latest post:

The way the Red wagon built up was just not right.

How do you read that as "not liking the people"? He specifically says "the way".

I think you’re town and you’re just completely on the wrong track with Montosh, so I want to fix you <3

So I should just trust you because of your assumptions based on vague *reasons*? That's iffy.

If you're sticking your neck out, then give me more reason to trust you.

[Kublai Khan]

Im mason

Anyone who has played with Saudade before knows not to take this seriously. So anything about this is NAI IMO.

If RedFlavor and Montosh knew that Saudade always said that and it means nothing, then decided to keep this information to themselves as other players blasted Saudade, then it is Alignment Indicative. It advances the scum's goal of keeping town against town.

It could also mean that they thought the average player wouldn’t believe anyone claiming mason the way Saudade did.

Sure, this whole game is based on interpretation of actions. rosterfoster is telling me that he has reasons beyond what I can see. He's being vague so at this point I can only assume why.

This game feels smaller than it actually is.

There are outskirts people. That's their folly. I think that if strong town players discuss strongly now, then we can form a town block. Non-participating scum are going to be the first picked off.

[Kublai Khan]

How do you read that as "not liking the people"? He specifically says "the way".

Presumably he likes the way the Swim wagon built up because it was him and his town reads (this is basically coming from him posts)

If you don’t like the way a wagon built up them it would probably be due to the people on it. I know some people don’t like it when a wagon goes too fast but that tends to be bs especially D1.

In what other way could you not like how a wagon built up?

Man, if only there was a way to understand Montosh's thoughts on this. I mean, I could put it out there and wait to see how he reacts and explains himself. Since he's alive and totally capable of explaining his actions. That's certainly one way that makes total sense.

But naw, it's obviously much better for a separate person, who conveniently thinks I'm town, to totally answer for Montosh by presuming every action Montosh does is town for vague undefined *reasons* and have him ask me really weird hypotheticals to away me.

You're really not convincing me that Montosh is town. You're only convincing me that you either have a vested interest in keeping Montosh alive or... you're really bad at using meta.?

[Kublai Khan]

Vote Count 1.2

Creature(0)Vorkuta,

@mod - is this an error?

[Kublai Khan]

Feel like Red is still scummy.

He is. It's a goddamned shame that we're moving on.

I dont really get the Swims SRs. Maybe Ill iso them after.

Did you get around to ISOing HeWhoSwims?

Kirari is the weakest read here imo. I don't know how a silly fakeclaim is AI at all, and I'm not sure what you're seeing that you're calling "over-meta"

I agree with M that ignoring the mason claim is NAI. If anything ignoring fakeclaims and getting back to business is slightly town-indicative

I'm not seeing what is particularly weird about Vorkuta's posts. I don't see Red's and Vork's joining the pisskop wagon as the same.

I agree on EvilDeanius. If we're going to be voting lurkers I'd rather go here right now over HWS

It's really just impressions to maybe kickstart some discussion, but I think that was only marginally successful.

I still feel that rosterfoster is weird for the hard defending.

I'd join on the EvilDeanius wagon, but I think turning up the skillet on HeWhoSwims is best.

VOTE: HeWhoSwims

P.Edit: Oh hey, a vote count. Timely.

[Kublai Khan]

2 posts.

Youre going to vote HWS over 2 posts?

Yeah. C'mon, join us.

[Kublai Khan]

Feel like I need to find town in some of the active slots, otter, vorkuta, montosh, jesus, alchemist, luv, nero. Solve seems impossible with this many missing slots but we can start townblocking. who wants to sell me town on one of those 7?

I'd add Lil Uzi Vert to the townblock.

[Kublai Khan]

pedit: @KK, why's that?

I mean, I've got a higher townread on him than I do you.

[Kublai Khan]

I mean, I've got a higher townread on him than I do you.

Yeah but the question was "why?" What do you see as AI from that slot? I wasn't even undercutting your read I just don't know what you're seeing

At times, he's writing things that I'm thinking. I've got a mental groove with him. Same with pisskop, LuckyOtter, Nero Cain, and Alchemist21 to a lesser degree.

To me, that's the important part of a townblock. So if one of them start pushing bad logic, they stick out more as scum.

Right now, I don't think you and me are on the same page enough.

[Kublai Khan]

RedFlavor is just

bringing

that game content.

[Kublai Khan]

Interesting townblock, can you expand on where you're mindmelding with otter?

No specific place. He seems to be asking questions and following up. He's not jumping to conclusions, but he's probing for more information.
-
Reading the Jesus Louisus /pisskop interaction.. Jesus Louisus is coming off as scummy in that I can't understand his reasoning from a town persepective.
-

I mean alignment. Role is what we call to alignment in our language often.

What language?

I'm town-reading RedFlavor a lot more after that stretch.
-
Vorkuta is trying really hard to push that pisskop self-vote flub as a scummy thing
-
Vorkuta pushing a Creature wagon out of nowhere feels opportunistic af. I've been in two games with town!Creature and I was convinced both times that he was scum based on the content of his posts.

I've got no read on Creature currently, but I'd much rather be stringing up Jesus Louisus, Vorkuta, or HeWhoSwims.

[Kublai Khan]

I don't think self-meta clears you quite as much as you think it might.

[Kublai Khan]

-
Reading the Jesus Louisus /pisskop interaction.. Jesus Louisus is coming off as scummy in that I can't understand his reasoning from a town persepective.
-

Will you keep this opinion when I flip town?

Right. It's questions like that that I just don't get. Obviously I won't keep my opinion that you're scummy if you flip town. How in the world is that helpful to you?

[Kublai Khan]

I wonder what's the resistance to HWS seeing everybody softed a scumread on them but never pulled a train on him like they did to me

Are you going to break down this thought or are you throwing it out there for someone else to do it?

[Kublai Khan]

Vorkuta pushing a Creature wagon out of nowhere feels opportunistic af. I've been in two games with town!Creature and I was convinced both times that he was scum based on the content of his posts.

I think this is cherrypicking - why is Vork starting a creature wagon opportunistic but not the people who jumped on the wagon after him?

Well, it's Vorkuta's second attempt at a wagon on Creature without anything beyond meta. Creature is low-hanging fruit who hasn't done much and I think Vorkuta is either scum or really lazy town for going after him.

[Kublai Khan]

Vorkuta pushing a Creature wagon out of nowhere feels opportunistic af. I've been in two games with town!Creature and I was convinced both times that he was scum based on the content of his posts.

I think this is cherrypicking - why is Vork starting a creature wagon opportunistic but not the people who jumped on the wagon after him?

Well, it's Vorkuta's second attempt at a wagon on Creature without anything beyond meta. Creature is low-hanging fruit who hasn't done much and I think Vorkuta is either scum or really lazy town for going after him.

sure it's his second time calling for a creature wagon but i think you can just as easily chastise the rest of the wagon for being scum or lazy

Not as much. I think there's a malaise happening now and people are eager to kick up a big wagon to see if something happens. I do think Creature had a good idea to look into who hesitated to jump on a HeWhoSwims wagon, but jumped at a Creature wagon. I'll try to look into that at some point later today).

[Kublai Khan]

@rosterforster - Why are you so indecisive with your vote?

[Kublai Khan]

Ugh.

VOTE: Niko

[Kublai Khan]

I could go for Kublai + Eyes + LuckyOtter right now tbh

Look at that.. You're OMGUSing two of the three people voting for you.

Kublai changes his vote on hws to me for ??? reasons, it`s almost like...i`m scum reading his buddies.

You didn't even throw a "hey, why?" my way before declaring me scummy for voting you. You're not trying to read anybody, you're just justifying positions.

Niko is obvscum.

[Kublai Khan]

I could go for Kublai + Eyes + LuckyOtter right now tbh

Look at that.. You're OMGUSing two of the three people voting for you.

Kublai changes his vote on hws to me for ??? reasons, it`s almost like...i`m scum reading his buddies.

You didn't even throw a "hey, why?" my way before declaring me scummy for voting you. You're not trying to read anybody, you're just justifying positions.

Niko is obvscum.

1. I voted eyes before he voted me, so it`s not omgus, upsy-daisy kublai
2. I call scummy people scummy because that's what they are. I don't like to engage with my scum reads and the only reason i'm engaging eyes is to show to everyone how wolfy he is.

"You're not trying to read anybody"

Wtf? What should I do in your opinion? Engage my scum reads so that they make up excuses for their scummy behavior or something?

I did that entrance to purposely put myself in a easy position to scum hop in/suspect me, and the proof i'm not simply omgusing is that although I had read the anime alt vote on me as scummy at first, I reconsidered and now I'm kind of town reading it.

I did the same reconsideration about Montosh.

I'm not interested in excuses though, so that's why i'm not interested to whatever you've to say about changing your votes from guys like redflavor/hws...to me.

Okay, first, for my reference, "the anime alt" refers to Kirarki Momobami.

And it completely is OMGUS. I say "Ugh. Vote: Niko" and you assign scummyness to me and back-reason it's because "i' m scum reading his buddies". You didn't ask. You didn't check. If you were town, you'd try to see what it was about before you assigned reason, not makeup some fluff.

Refusing to engage a scum-read means that you have absolutely no doubt as to what my alignment is. The only people with no doubt in this game are scum. You... are scum.

[Kublai Khan]

By the way notice that kublai didn't explain why he voted me actually, since he essentially says he has a problem with me calling his vote scummy before engaging him but that was AFTER he already had voted me.

I'm foreseeing some bs reason about my entrance being scummy for ??? reasons.

Are you assuming nobody reads my posts. This is such fakeness.

[Kublai Khan]

Achi-haul is town

Who is "Achi-haul"?

[Kublai Khan]

VOTE: Vorkuta

I really don't like how Niko has established himself as someone who won't always tell the truth.

[Kublai Khan]

also nero, why do you think I'm bulletproof?

For fuck's sake..

VOTE: Niko

Niko is the lynch today.

[Kublai Khan]

For fuck's sake..

VOTE: Niko

Niko is the lynch today.

But nooooooo when I do it, it's scum!vork

Not the same, Vorkuta. Don't equate.

[Kublai Khan]

Still okay with lynching Niko.

[Kublai Khan]

rosterfoster scumminess reading has been rising again.

[Kublai Khan]

@pisskop - You seem to be dancing around trying to find a counter wagon without making a definitive read on Niko. The most you seem to have made is a wishy-washy "tone is town, but content is bad" (paraphrased). Could you give a definitive read on Niko? (preferably sober)

@DeasVail - How can someone who has been here as long as you have just through their hands in the air and say you can't read a situation and decide to vote a wagon you're going to have no company on and who is V/LA? You really seem like you're looking for a safe spot where you don't upset anyone.

@RedFlavor - Comment on Niko. Stop avoiding.

[Kublai Khan]

Seriously people are saying an otter wagon won’t happen but why not? The people saying that are the ones stopping it from happening

Your case on LuckyOtter is that their posts make you feel empty. It doesn't seem like you're fighting for a wagon to happen. You're just limply putting a vote where others have expressed distrust and are hoping that a spark hits kindling. Whether or not it does, you seem indifferent.

Your posts give me the distinct impression that if I hadn't called you out, your plan was to coast on that vote then switch to whoever was getting lynched if needed to avoid a NL.

In other words, you're playing like someone trying to keep their hands clean.

[Kublai Khan]

Its not like we will suddenly forget niko/eyes was a vig and let them into lylo.

Yeah, but Niko has already "haha, that's not my role" twice. If we leave it and wait to ask Niko days later "hey, what happened with your vig shot?", he's just going to be "haha, no. I was never a vig. just a clever gambit!". Again.

[Kublai Khan]

VOTE: Niko[/votr]

VOTE: Niko

Why the scramble?

[Kublai Khan]

@DeasVail - What happened to your LuckyOtter vote and case?

Creature is not known for his reliability at submitting night actions

Would you mind listing your history with Creature?

I'm not saying you're wrong, but you also sound like a possible annoyed teammate. (Like, couldn't a town roleblocker be possible?)

Trying to get caught up. I'm really not liking the flashwagon on Jesus yesterday because of his "do you have a gun" comment. Like, did you all really think that was rolefishing? @LUV, roster, redflavor.

It could be role-fishing. Creature was role-fishing early on. What town reason does he have to ask?

I've mostly been TRing Kublai but I don't like his asking roster why he's moving his vote around. Votehopping D1 is obviously a thing and a lot of people were doing it in this game especially. Like, did you see roster doing it more than others, or more opportunistically than others? If you followed up on this I'm not seeing it.

Yes, he seemed to be doing it more than others. It's my general opinion that those who vote-hop weaken the pressure their vote imparts. In this case, nobody felt threatened or pressured by a rosterfoster vote, because he'll probably move it anyways. Flippant voters tend to be flippant because they have other ways to remove playes (NK) and a wide spread of votes keeps their association tells down. It's personality dependent of course, but I've never played with rosterfoster and don't know him.

Also, here is where I'm sitting after a re-read.
Lil Uzi Vert is likely town.
Nero Cain is likely town.
Alchemist21 is likely town.
LuckyOtter is likely town.
Nero Cain is likely town.
ofrhz is likely town.
nomnomnom is townside.
rosterfoster is townside
Montosh is townside
Jesus Louisus is ???.
DealVail is ???
RedFlavor is scum suspect.
Vorkuta is scum suspect.

[Kublai Khan]

What I'm getting at is that roster is feeling like lynchbait and that worries me, about your slot in particular.

Why? I'm not after rosterfoster. He's on the townside of my reads.

[Kublai Khan]

What I'm getting at is that roster is feeling like lynchbait and that worries me, about your slot in particular.

Why? I'm not after rosterfoster. He's on the townside of my reads.

You're still implying there might be something scummy about his voting pattern, though. Otherwise, why make the 'scramble' comment at all? Was his response to that sufficient for you?

Neat. You ask me why I ask questions. I respond with the reason behind asking it (generally because there could be a scummy explanation), and you start accusing me of "still implying there might be something scummy".

Are you going to ask me if I've stopping beating my wife next?

[Kublai Khan]

For example, here, wouldn't it have made much more sense to wait and see if I was actually going to "coast on that vote then switch to whoever was getting lynched if needed to avoid a NL", before mentioning that it's what you're assuming I'm going to do? I was unlikely to be lynched Day 1 even if that was what you wanted, so why the rush to tell everyone about how my plan was to coast on the Otter vote so soon after I first mention my interest in lynching Otter? It would be a much more compelling, and logically sound, argument to wait until the Day ends and then, if I do as you expect, tell everyone about how I did a bad thing or whatever.

Did you not notice I asked two other people about their position on Niko at the same time? I was convinced that Niko was scum and was worried that the wagon would stall out. If Niko flipped scum then I wanted to know how strongly you felt about your last-minute counter wagon attempt.

What the flying fox?

It's approx. 12 hours into the day phase at the time of your post, it doesn't take much effort to notice that I'm in Australia and realise that the Day started at 1am my time or whatever, and I made a single post questioning a post made shortly after night ended at 8:30amish my time...

So why are you asking that question? Why would anything have "happened" to my LuckyOtter vote and case?

Why did you react to a prompt like it was an accusation? I legit want to know more about your case because I had just finished re-reading the game and I noted that I never really got a satisfactory resolution to something I wondered about 5 RL days ago.

Instead, you seem desperate to fling dirt at me before the dirt has even materialized. It's as if you're using whatever you can to build a scumread on me, but are not actually ready to commit to it (if your ??? read on me is anything to go by). And why not? To use your line, you've been around long enough to probably know that I was considered a strong town player back when I played more regularly. Have you been hesitant to go all in on me because of that? Have you been hoping that your ethereal dirt would get others to scumread me and do the work for you?

Convince me that I'm wrong.
(And also please explain your townread on Otter. My next post will be about him)

That was a big post of over defensive horseshit. I just finished a big re-read of the game with the flips in mind. One of the last things was me noting your wishy-washy play and nothing that I don't really understand where you're coming from. And since I don't understand your motivations, you make me feel uneasy. I don't have a case on you (and I'm not trying to build one), but you're a wild card of "could go either way".

Let me put it another way, since you asked me about my LuckyOtter townread. I see LuckyOtter making questions/inquiries/observations that serve to inform him or note something. It feels like town building a small knowledge base or which to inform themselves of future reads. He's asking "why?" questions about reasonable things to ascertain motivation. He's working to piece together the puzzle of this game and build some footing in the middle of unknown miasmas. That's solid town behavior.

On the other hand, your posts play up your uncertainties about things. They are packed with what you are unsure about or don't know know or how helpless you feel about things. You seem to hide behind the vagaries of "feelings". Now, you could be town and totally honest about your apprehensions, but you don't seem to have much drive to confirm or investigate them. To me it just seems like you are hedging and putting out weak reads where you can't really be nailed down, because there's no concrete feeling. Your latest posts are over-defensive and totally self-centered. "HOW DARE YOU ACCUSE ME!?" is the strongest and most genuine position you've taken all game. It's stronger than your LuckyOtter case, which is now about what LuckyOtter didn't do post-vote. Nothing about why you voted for the first time. Are you moving the goalposts?

[Kublai Khan]

What I'm getting at is that roster is feeling like lynchbait and that worries me, about your slot in particular.

Why? I'm not after rosterfoster. He's on the townside of my reads.

You're still implying there might be something scummy about his voting pattern, though. Otherwise, why make the 'scramble' comment at all? Was his response to that sufficient for you?

Neat. You ask me why I ask questions. I respond with the reason behind asking it (generally because there could be a scummy explanation), and you start accusing me of "still implying there might be something scummy".

Are you going to ask me if I've stopping beating my wife next?

Lol. I'm trying to figure out your intent behind the question and what you intend to do with the information. It's not lining up.

1. You ask roster why he's moving his vote around so much, and you ask him if he's scrambling (which if you want to talk about loaded questions, there you have one)
2. I say I don't really like this line of questioning because of how common votehopping is D1, but I ask you if you think roster's votehopping is more likely to come from scum than town.
3.

You say that you do, but that you're also townleaning him

. This is where I'm confused about what you're trying to accomplish here. Your questioning and reasoning for those questions imply you think he might be scum, but you're still townleaning him, and I'm not seeing how you've reconciled that. I even gave you a possible out here ("Was his response to that sufficient for you?") but instead you get defensive.

And it's weird because given your last post I'd think you would see where I was going with this.

It's a bit aggravating because otherwise I agree with a lot of your reads and approaches this game.

First, I'm town-reading him for a different reason. I noticed something on the re-read and it may be bunk, but if it's not then it's stronger than any gut-twitch I may have.

Both of the voting-based questions were based on minor gut-twitches that are enough to ask a question, but not really follow through with.
1-Vote hopping could be a little scummy if it's to hide a scumtrail.
2-The "scrambling" just stood out as weird because it was a correction followed by "mea culpas". It just felt like it negated the sincerity of the regret. Probably nothing, but it popped into my brain at the time.

Neither of those things are "a-ha scuM!" (by themselves or together) and I never even connected them until you posted about it. I had forgotten about the first and was on the way to forgetting about the second before you chimed in that I was "still going on about his voting habits". So I got defensive because I think you're barking up the wrong tree and painting me as scum.

[Kublai Khan]

Yeah, okay.

VOTE: RedFlavor

[Kublai Khan]

Wait, Vorkuta has a vote already.

VOTE: Vorkuta

[Kublai Khan]

Oh. Well.. okay. Either way.

[Kublai Khan]

Current read on nom is leaning scum.

Why?

[Kublai Khan]

Current read on nom is leaning scum.

Why?

I wasn't very fond of the HWS slot to begin with.

That is an answer, but that doesn't answer my question. What has the either HeWhoSwims or nomnomnom done to make you think that they have a scum role?

Because right now I'm siding with them in that you're evasive.

[Kublai Khan]

kk-can you please give me your opinion about 1116

It's a hard sell. You're pulling a quote from first few day posts where someone not posting in the first 12 hours (or whatever) is a "case".

If I take it at face value, it means that you think Montosh is the type of player to out a scum-partner, then call attention to it with the "I'm semi-serious" comment. Which is weird play.


Unrelated and @everyone:

Iirc, Creature is one of those who hate bus'ing

Creature pretty much always does some low-grade bussing/distancing day 1 as scum right?

Anyone else have strong meta on Creature-scum? I feel like Kirari Momobami is more accurate, but I've only played a couple of games with Creature where we were both town.

[Kublai Khan]

Current read on nom is leaning scum.

Why?

I wasn't very fond of the HWS slot to begin with.

That is an answer, but that doesn't answer my question. What has the either HeWhoSwims or nomnomnom done to make you think that they have a scum role?

Because right now I'm siding with them in that you're evasive.

I wouldn't say I'm being evasive, I think of it more like being speculative. Is there anything wrong with that?

Speaking of you being evasive, why do you have a scum read on the HeWhoSwims or nomnomnom slot?

[Kublai Khan]

Man this game is so hard to get into. People keep writing quote walls

Join me on the Vorkuta wagon.

[Kublai Khan]

Why not Jesus? I think Vorkuta’s early vote on Creature was towny

I think if he were SvS with Creature, he would’ve played it up more?

Fine. Eyes without a face makes a good point. Something still feels really off about Vorkuta. He's faking something and maybe it's just the fake-stupid thing he's doing. He'd be townier if he stopped.

VOTE: Jesus Louisus

[Kublai Khan]

I think Vorkuta is more scummy than Jesus fwiw, and I also have serious concerns about Lil Uzi Vert

Disagree about Vorkuta and Jesus

I do think that LUV has kind of flown under the radar thus far

Lil Uzi Vert is being replaced.

So far under the radar that he's literally been grounded and taken out of the plane.

[Kublai Khan]

Why nom? I kinda liked her interaction with Jesus

that whole "I only have one strong scum read" just looks like scum that's keeping their options open.

Without looking, who does Vorkuta have a scum-read on? (Difficulty: You can't say Creature).

I know I said I'd let that drop, but I have a townier read on nomnomnom than Vorkuta.

[Kublai Khan]

Prodging. Sorry. Had a fun day at the beach today and have a lengthy dr. appoint tomorrow. If I don't get caught up tonight, then it will be tomorrow night at earliest.

[Kublai Khan]

Current read on nom is leaning scum.

Why?

I wasn't very fond of the HWS slot to begin with.

That is an answer, but that doesn't answer my question. What has the either HeWhoSwims or nomnomnom done to make you think that they have a scum role?

Because right now I'm siding with them in that you're evasive.

I wouldn't say I'm being evasive, I think of it more like being speculative. Is there anything wrong with that?

Speaking of you being evasive, why do you have a scum read on the HeWhoSwims or nomnomnom slot?

Speaking of you being very evasive and scummy, why did you have a scum read on the HeWhoSwims or nomnomnom slot?

[Kublai Khan]

Rosterfoster dropped to my scum list. His reads are incomprehensible and it feels like he's just taking contrary positions to pocket townfolk.

Welcome, popsofctown.

[Kublai Khan]

Waiting to vote RedFlavour after he inevitably fails to explain his lie.

[Kublai Khan]

Ah, so he did.

VOTE: RedFlavor

[Kublai Khan]

I'm gonna guess there's a serial killer this game given the flip.

Um.. How do you know that Eyes without a Face isn't the scum kill?

[Kublai Khan]

Same question to rosterfoster..

What do you guys know that I don't?

[Kublai Khan]

Oh, that makes more sense.

[Kublai Khan]

I'll do my re-reading tomorrow.

[Kublai Khan]

I'm going to agree with you that the alignment cop sorta points to a SK (maybe tratior) Although part of me is also thinking that it could just be standard boilerplate.

I'm thinking it's more of a mod mind-fuck. Like having a Mafia Strongman in a game with no protective roles. Or a Town Universal Backup in a game with no power roles.

Unrelated,

My town-tell on rosterfoster dissolved. So..

VOTE: rosterfoster

[Kublai Khan]

You can't be serious

I am. Why shouldn't I be?

[Kublai Khan]

Mind telling me what the town tell is so I can use it in future scum games? <3

You had a super-secret reason for calling Montosh 100% town. You were so certain that I thought it might be an informed read. But now it's nothing. So without that town-tell, I'm back to scum-reading you.

[Kublai Khan]

You can't be serious

I am. Why shouldn't I be?

Because he doesn't work very well as a partner to the flipped scum, as far as I can tell

Yeah, but RedFlavor didn't really post much connection to anyone. He mostly hopped on wagons. He even hopped on a Creature wagon. JesusLousius gets a slightly town tick, only because RedFlavor kept hopping back on him a few times.

Therefore my set of scum reads mostly stays the same: Vorkuta, DealVais, JesusLouisus. But I had ignored both rosterfoster and Montosh because I thought I read a solid towntell from rosterfoster declaring Montosh to be town with such certainty and explaining all his actions as town. I thought maybe there was a town reason. But now he's voting Montosh. It's a flip-flop that I don't understand, so I want to push in that direction.

I don't have a scumread on either ofrhz or LuckyOtter.

[Kublai Khan]

Pops is basically conf not mafia for the Red push, I think the flip implies a SK is likely? Or possible a traitor. But the 2 kills N1 make sense for SK.

Nero was also kind of opposed IIRC

The 2 kills on N1 could be explained by there being a backup that took over Nikos role.

Can we take a minute to jump back and realize that the logic of this post makes no sense?

[Kublai Khan]

Pops is basically conf not mafia for the Red push, I think the flip implies a SK is likely? Or possible a traitor. But the 2 kills N1 make sense for SK.

Nero was also kind of opposed IIRC

The 2 kills on N1 could be explained by there being a backup that took over Nikos role.

Can we take a minute to jump back and realize that the logic of this post makes no sense?

It kinda does in a dumb way.

How? Niko was an even-night vig.

[Kublai Khan]

Pops is basically conf not mafia for the Red push, I think the flip implies a SK is likely? Or possible a traitor. But the 2 kills N1 make sense for SK.

Nero was also kind of opposed IIRC

The 2 kills on N1 could be explained by there being a backup that took over Nikos role.

Can we take a minute to jump back and realize that the logic of this post makes no sense?

It kinda does in a dumb way.

How? Niko was an even-night vig.

Yeah but couldn’t a generic backup vig just become a full vig if an even-Night died? Or even have its own separate modifier?

That sounds crazily specific. Have you seen that sort of thing before?

Also, why are you answering for Jesus Louisus?

[Kublai Khan]

Oh man what would happen if I were to hammer without doing ANYTHING at all this day?
That would suck wouldn't it?

Got so much scum-vibes from this comment.

[Kublai Khan]

KK I'm ready to hear about rosterfoster!scum now

You've got the gist. He adopts extreme positions without much transition.

[Kublai Khan]

Where were you town when Jesus Louisus needed hammering?

I'm willing to hammer. Any last business we need to do before night?

[Kublai Khan]

Alright..

VOTE: Montosh

[Kublai Khan]

That's an actual hammer.

[Kublai Khan]

If were going to do setup spec, then let's do it logically as far as killing and mafia-cop roles go. 4 person mafia team assumed for a large and Mafia Cop only has the usefulness of detecting either a SK or a Mafia Traitor.

3 Mafia, 1 Traitor, 1 Half-Vig (doesn't explain extra kill N1 & N3)
or
4 Mafia, 1 SK, 1 Half-Vig (doesn't explain lack of N2 kill)
or
3 Mafia, 1 Traitor, 1 SK, 1 Half-Vig (doesn't explain lack of N2 kill)

If we add in the possibility of a mirroring Odd-night Vig:

3 Mafia, 1 Traitor, 2 Alternating Half-Vigs (Even Night dead, Odd night alive) (nothing not explained)
or
4 Mafia, 1 SK, 2 Alt. Half-Vigs (Feels like not enough kills to explain.)
or
3 Mafia, 1 Traitor, 1 SK, 2 Alt. Half-Vigs (Feels like not enough kills to explain.)

It seems only the middle one has no "doesn't explain" caveat. Assuming a SK exists is only the second most plausible. Of course this is likely moot and a waste of time because so far our mod enjoys adding in a variety of Conditional Night elements.

Also strongly notable is that there's been 2 Mafia Commuters flips and I'm hoping that the other Mafia aren't also N1-4 commuters as well because that sounds really over-powered unless there's a limitation to stop the majority of the team of commuting for 4 straight nights. If the setup is 2 alternating half-vigs with 3-4 mafia commuters, then I can see an interesting "vigs use the lack of kill as a cop guilty" setup idea.

(Though thinking about it now, Kirari Momobami's D1 targeting invite as it appears to be a little scum-cheekiness.)

Also, since I'm setup speculating, can I return to the weirdness of JesusLouisus and Alchemist13 casually insisting that a Town Backup is a strong possibility without anything to base that on? (No N2 kill)

[Kublai Khan]

KK does your analysis above make you think we should massclaim today or tomorrow?

Tomorrow probably.

I'll drop a nugget of info though. I have an informed role and I know who the other vig is.

So given that I can see no SK kills over the first 3 nights. I'm gonna squelch the idea that there is an SK and I guess confirm that it must be a traitor.

[Kublai Khan]

There wasn't a pressing need. The only reason I'm bringing it up today is to kill the SK talk.

[Kublai Khan]

what night were you informed? N0?

From N0 on. I understand that it wouldn't come out in my flip, but I weighed that against them being a powerrole and targeted early.

[Kublai Khan]

Still I don't see why you would say you're informed today and not claim the info

I mean, if the confirmed town gets voted up, then I'd say something. No need to say any more.

I'm confirming the game has two alternating night vigs.

[Kublai Khan]

It's also a significant gain to do this for a SK because the conversation changes significantly and the way you hunt for scums changes significantly. It's not something you do with no reason. KK!SK has legitimate reasons to do this so I want to stop the paranoia and make him claim his information. It shouldn't be a problem given the massive advantage town has right now and it would mean we literally just win.

Right now the strongest piece of evidence you have is that you *feel* that there should be a SK in the game.

How about you claim something that justifies that feeling? Any reasoning at all. Anything.

[Kublai Khan]

It's also a significant gain to do this for a SK because the conversation changes significantly and the way you hunt for scums changes significantly. It's not something you do with no reason. KK!SK has legitimate reasons to do this so I want to stop the paranoia and make him claim his information. It shouldn't be a problem given the massive advantage town has right now and it would mean we literally just win.

Right now the strongest piece of evidence you have is that you *feel* that there should be a SK in the game.

How about you claim something that justifies that feeling? Any reasoning at all. Anything.

Scum cop.
Weird nightkills.
The fact that 3 scums - 1 traitor would be hella weak.
It just makes more sense to have a configuration with a SK.

Scum Cop -> Mafia Traitor
Weird nightkills -> On Odd Nights.
hella weak -> What other Town powers have flipped?
If the two vigs die in the first 1-2 nights, then the game is basically a mountainous.

The SK paranoia only weakens the vigs.

[Kublai Khan]

IDK what that means.

The night after the counterclaim would be an odd night, so we could actually no lynch or lynch outside of the claimed vigs and let the counterclaimed vigs crosskill if there are competing vig claims tomorrow.

Literally, there can't be vig crosskills.

[Kublai Khan]

The SK paranoia only weakens the vigs.

Then just claim who the vig is

It ain't you.

[Kublai Khan]

The SK paranoia only weakens the vigs.

Then just claim who the vig is

Seriously, nomnomnom. Stop being scummy.

If I'm right about the game's setup, then my claiming now would take out all of the town's remaining power. Scum usually win mountaneous. All I'm done is promise that SK is off the table. You can still hunt scum. Right now it sounds like you're super pissed you can't control the gameplay to SK-hunting.

[Kublai Khan]

Jesus christ you're an idiot.

Just claim your vig so I can stop losing my time with thinking about SKs for fuck sake.

You've gone through denial, anger, and barganing. Just move on to depression and acceptance.

I'm town and my outing the knowledge I know hurts town. You are not hunting scum by pursuing this crusade against me. You're being anti-town. Do you understand this?

[Kublai Khan]

You can already stop thinking about SKs. KK has claimed informed-that-there-is-no-SK. He dies in massclaim if he is anything but a nonkilling role in massclaim roster where we get an odd night vig claim. There is no conceivable scenario where there's an SK unless SK!KK is conceding in a fancy ostentatious manner

Exactly. We massclaim tomorrow. If you still feel like lynching me then, then we can lynch me then. If I am SK, I have ZERO chance of surviving until endgame.

[Kublai Khan]

VOTE: ofrhz
so much fucking idiocy

why do you scumread ofrhz again?

Why did you invite targetting D1 again?

[Kublai Khan]

Vote: Vorkuta

Hey, wake up.

[Kublai Khan]

I can dig that. nomnomnom has been the one pushing the idea of SK the hardest, which makes sense if he's the traitor.

But right now, Vorkuta is hella lurking. More votes should be on Vorkuta.

[Kublai Khan]

Not in normals, vork, but thanks for townslipping

Is this a true thing? If so, cool.

[Kublai Khan]

Join on otter kk?

I'm looking into it.

[Kublai Khan]

I don't see LuckyOtter as being scum.

[Kublai Khan]

so KK, why did you vote Niko if you knew he was a vig?

There's a reason. Tomorrow.

[Kublai Khan]

Aight. So what's next?

I'm reading. Looking for connections.

[Kublai Khan]

Not in normals, vork, but thanks for townslipping

Is this a true thing? If so, cool.

Hey, Checking for consensus on this. Reading through, I see that the "traitors get endgamed if all mafia die" was already posted in thread before Vorkuta "slipped" by mentioning it. My gut is telling me that it's a legitimate slip and Vorkuta actually is just kinda lazy town who isn't hard-reading the game.

Does anyone have meta with Vorkuta where he showed signs of extreme cleverness/deviousness?

[Kublai Khan]

@ LuckyOtter, nomnomnom, Jesus Louisus - Is there anything outside of ofrhz's reaction to popsofctown's RedFlavor catch that signals scum to you guys?

[Kublai Khan]

still I think he's safely not traitor given his 'slip' earlier

Hmm, maybe true.

I was hoping to eliminate him from scum altogether. My assumption is that scum would talk about the normal rules of a traitor in their private topic. Especially with a Mafia Cop.

[Kublai Khan]

if vorkuta is groupscum who just legitimately traitorslipped I would still want to lynch that.

No, no.. The question was whether or not Vorkuta faked a townslip where he didn't know how Traitors worked in a Normal game. This assumes the mafia group would be familiar with normal rules about traitors.

Right now I'm leaning towards it not being faked and therefore am clearing him from my suspects.

[Kublai Khan]

What's the LuckyOtter evidence? Because I'm not seeing it.

[Kublai Khan]

ugh.. Okay, I've been segmentally reading this game in chunks over and over to look for connections and I think I need to sleep to digest and hopefully have an epiphany.

Right now the weirdest thing in my mind is the fact that both Creature and RedFlavor voted each other on Day 1:

RedFlavor's votes:
pisskop
ofrhz
Kublai Khan
pisskop
Creature
Jesus Louisus
Creature
Jesus Louisus
Vorkuta
Jesus Louisus

Creature's votes:
Vorkuta
HeWhoSwims (now: nomnomnom)
RedFlavor

Creature's RedFlavor vote in particular was super random as he was the leading wagon and RedFlavor wasn't even on his wagon. The only overlap is Vorkuta (who also voted Creature).

Also, neither were on the Niko townlynch wagon. Which is weird, because it seems really improbable for an all town town-mislynch. The living lynchers from that were: Kirari Momobami, ofrhz, Nero Cain, Kublai Khan, Lil Uzi Vert, & Jesus Louisus

Fun tinfoil hat thought: the it's 3 scum + a traitor and they scum are informed that a traitor is in the game, so nobody in the scumteam wanted to vote Niko because they interpreted the scumclaim entrance to the game as a traitor claim.

That group would include: Vorkuta, LuckyOtter, nomnomnom, & DeasVail.

[Kublai Khan]

You thought roster was scum kk i'm not gonna try to explain things to you

Rude.

[Kublai Khan]

Yeah, I'm waiting to see how the LuckyOtter claim goes as well.

[Kublai Khan]

Still not really feeling the LuckyOtter and would lean more towards ofrhz of the two top wagons. But neither feels like scum and people like DeasVail and JesusLouisus just seem happy letting their vote sit and aren't really pushing anything while they wait for time to pass. Neither has ever explained their votes or reads.

[Kublai Khan]

KK are there enough vigs in the setup for me to leashkill both nom and nero cain

please say yes

so hurtful nom

i went so far as to make up a pronoun specifically for you and that's what i get back

I had a tinge about nomnomnom being maybe scum for the some of the things that Kiraki Monobami mentioned, but I think she's just going too hardcore sirens blazing for a scum not in any danger. If it's a scumgame, kudos, but I'm not getting that feeling.

KK happy birthday dude

Thanks. It's a round number this year.

[Kublai Khan]

Quick question for anyone keeping track.. How long was LuckyOtter at L-1 for and was ofrhz around during that time?

[Kublai Khan]

Nevermind. Got a bust of energy and checked myself.

LuckyOtter was at L-1 for about 26 hours-ish until he checked in and claimed. ofrhz posted during that time and directly after the claim with scum-read on LuckyOtter, but no vote. So that's a point in the town column. It's circumstantial and weak, yeah, but he's not being opportunistic.

Yeah, I really don't like either major wagon. I'd rather pull a 180 and do a hardcourt press against DeasVail.

VOTE: DeasVail

[Kublai Khan]

My general impression throughout the game is that Otter has played it fairly safe. There have been thoughts expressed, some questions here and there, getting involved with the game were he can. It's reasonably okay play. It's nothing flashy, but it gets the job done.

Eh... With all due respect, this is the exact same way I'd characterize your play.

[Kublai Khan]

These lynch choices are so underwhelming.

[Kublai Khan]

Unofficial VC:

LuckyOtter (4) DeasVail, popsofctown, Vorkuta, Jesus Louisus
ofrhz (2) LuckyOtter, nomnomnom
HeWhoSwimsnomnomnom (2) Kirari Momobami, ofrhz
BodhiSmith13DeasVail (1) Kublai Khan
Kirari Momobami (1) Nero Cain
Not Voting (0)
SaudadeLil Uzi Vertpopsofctown (0)
Vorkuta(0)
Jesus Louisus(0)
Nero Cain(0)
Kublai Khan(0)
No Lynch(0)

With 10 alive it is 6 to lynch.

[Kublai Khan]

These lynch choices are so underwhelming.

spoken like the man who leashed the vig on to flipping rosterfoster

More distracting than helpful right now.

[Kublai Khan]

"These lynch choices are so underwhelming" isn't actionable information itself, KK, there's no flashwagons only vanity wagons.

You guys were supposed to flash onto my vanity wagon.

If you could leash a vig tonight, where would you aim?

[Kublai Khan]

So let's all vote DeasVail?

[Kublai Khan]

I don't think there is enough active people for nomnomnom at this point.

[Kublai Khan]

It looks like the active-ish people right now are LuckyOtter, popsofctown, Kirari Momobami, nomnomnom, and me.

Hmm. nomnomnom could happen with everyone (but nomnomnom) agreeing. But ofrhz doesn't seem possible.

P.Edit: Yeah, DeasVail isn't happening. Shame.

[Kublai Khan]

At this point I have townreads on you, ofrhz, and nomnomnom, so I'm really not happy about the situation.

[Kublai Khan]

I mean, DeasVail or Jesus Louisus.

[Kublai Khan]

Naw. Unless more people show up, there's not enough numbers to push into new territory.

VOTE: nomnomnom

[Kublai Khan]

Unofficial VC:

LuckyOtter (4) DeasVail, popsofctown, Vorkuta, Jesus Louisus
HeWhoSwimsnomnomnom (3) Kirari Momobami, ofrhz, Kublai Khan
ofrhz (2) LuckyOtter, nomnomnom
Kirari Momobami (1) Nero Cain
BodhiSmith13DeasVail (0)
Not Voting (0)
SaudadeLil Uzi Vertpopsofctown (0)
Vorkuta(0)
Jesus Louisus(0)
Nero Cain(0)
Kublai Khan(0)
No Lynch(0)

With 10 alive it is 6 to lynch.

[/quote]

[Kublai Khan]

I almost wanna vote jesus, he's definitely the least whelming vt claim rn

Complete agreement. Casual VT claiming at L-2 should be universally considered a scum move. I don't know why it isn't.

[Kublai Khan]

VOTE: JesusLouisus

In a heartbeat.

[Kublai Khan]

Just need 1 more. Nero Cain? ofrhz?

[Kublai Khan]

vigleash on DeasVail, I guess.

[Kublai Khan]

Yeah I’m still here and I’d be willing to hammer

It's in your hands.

[Kublai Khan]

Did we win yet

Man, I hope so.

[Kublai Khan]

I'm fine with that claim order.

I'm the even-night bulletproof, odd-night vig. I was informed that Saudade (now popsofctown) was a Town backup. I shot Creature and rosterfoster.

Vorkuta, you're up.

[Kublai Khan]

Go ahead and claim now then.

[Kublai Khan]

Alright. DeasVail is next.

[Kublai Khan]

@Vorkuta - Are you going to post anything today?

[Kublai Khan]

KK can I say that your new choice in avi is pretty dope

Thanks, it's an old classic.

[Kublai Khan]

I've skimmed over yesterday again but would it be fair to conf!town otter based on his behavior yesterday?
Or are we going to keep tinfoiling scum theater?

Didn't "known mafia traitor" nomnomnom keep insisting on calling LuckyOtter lynchbait to dissuade his lynch?

[Kublai Khan]

I just realized we're actually missing a kill N2

Yeah, that was popsofctown's night.

I tried to figure out who he might have targeted, but I don't know.

[Kublai Khan]

oh shit, that's a good point.

[Kublai Khan]

Oh also this is more out of interest than anything else, but KK how come you were informed about the vig thing? I didn’t see anything in the posted PMs that would indicate it. Was it just part of your role PM? Apologies if I’ve missed something obvious.

It was part of the role PM.

[Kublai Khan]

I think if we can agree on a 3-person lynch pool then this game is on autopilot win?

Obviously harder with nero not agreeing with me being town but other than that, I think the likelihood we win today or tonight should be 66%

Yeah, I'm going to iso HeWhoSwims and nomnomnom given the traitor flip. But yeah. We have today's lynch. I have a shot tonight, then I'll likely be dead.

[Kublai Khan]

Ugh.. Been reading. I still suspect you all. (prod dodging post as I continue to read.)

[Kublai Khan]

LuckyOtter - HeWhoSwims/nomnomnom calling him town or lynchbait all game.

Nero Cain - "Random" First vote of HeWhoSwims. nomnomnom never gave a read.

ofrhz - nomnomnom was partial to ofrhz lynch over LuckyOtter lynch.

Vorkuta - Barely mentions Vorkuta.

BodhiSmith13-DeasVail - nomnomnom calls DeasVail town for hesitating on the RedFlavor lynch.

Kirari Momobami - Went from town read to scummy in a sort of self-preservation fashion.

I think Kirari Momobami and ofrhz are off the table for today.

I think a traitor generally tries to signal the groupscum not to kill them, and tries to protect them by calling them town.

So.. I think LuckyOtter is the strongest contender for lynch and failing that, DeasVail for vig-shot. I would strongly reccomend Nero Cain for lynch following that.

[Kublai Khan]

LuckyOtter - HeWhoSwims/nomnomnom calling him town or lynchbait all game.

Nero Cain - "Random" First vote of HeWhoSwims. nomnomnom never gave a read.

ofrhz - nomnomnom was partial to ofrhz lynch over LuckyOtter lynch.

Vorkuta - Barely mentions Vorkuta.

BodhiSmith13-DeasVail - nomnomnom calls DeasVail town for hesitating on the RedFlavor lynch.

Kirari Momobami - Went from town read to scummy in a sort of self-preservation fashion.

I think Kirari Momobami and ofrhz are off the table for today.

I think a traitor generally tries to signal the groupscum not to kill them, and tries to protect them by calling them town.

So.. I think LuckyOtter is the strongest contender for lynch and failing that, DeasVail for vig-shot. I would strongly reccomend Nero Cain for lynch following that.

Reading through nom’s ISO, I felt as if they were getting ready to change to a “scumread” on me, but hopefully it doesn’t need to come to that.

Well...

1) feelings aren't evidence.
2) Why would you iso nomnomnom for how it might make you look scummy if you're town?

[Kublai Khan]

Yeah, okay. I think you got a scum role and were checking to see if nomnomnom outed you.

VOTE: DeasVail

[Kublai Khan]

Are you deliberately trying not to understand?

Looking through nomnomnom's ISO to find scum is a very town move.
Looking through nomnomnom's ISO to check to see if you can spin yourself as town is a very scummy move.

I did the first one.
You did the second one.

Therefore, you are scum.

[Kublai Khan]

Who is Gollum?

[Kublai Khan]

I think reading to towncase yourself after being propsed as a vig shot isn't intrinsically scummy

It would help if he was saying he was towncasing himself tho, ya

I mean, he basically did.

I went through the iso and post thoughts on possible connection. DeasVail did the same thing, except instead of looking for connections and offering an analysis (y'know, scum-hunting), he just offered that he thinks nomnomnom was eventually going to call him scum, so we shouldn't think he's scum.

[Kublai Khan]

Could nom have not voted her scumbuddy? I mean, a scum kirari that's trying to act all town leaderish and endear herself to town doesn't exactly seem like an impossibility to me.

If nomnomnom voted to lynch her scum-buddie, the game would have been over and she'd have lost.

[Kublai Khan]

Who is Gollum?

I'm guessing Nero Cain.

[Kublai Khan]

Lmao. Nom I fucking love and hate you. I don't even know what to do with this game anymore.

I'm off camping this weekend and won't be able to post til Sunday evening at the very soonest. I'll try to wrap my head around everything then.

This opening line still seems funky to me though

If LuckyOtter was group scum, he would not know that nomnomnom was the traitor.

[Kublai Khan]

I will say that Nom having a concrete reason to townread DV makes DV the likelier partner imo.

Nom just randomly claiming Otter is lynchbait when he was at L-1 with intent seems like a rather lackluster, half-hearted defense of Otter. I kinda think Nom would've been... even louder if Otter was her last partner. At that point, she had been flatly saying "lynch Ofrhz" for like several days with no one following onto her. I feel like maybe she would've changed her strategy if she was about to lose the game.

Yeah, I agree with this. LuckyOtter feels a bit obvious, while DeasVail is more sly, but both are the top suspects.

But given that we have a double-lynch today (lynch+vig). I think we have a good chance of nailing the last scum.

[Kublai Khan]

I think reading to towncase yourself after being propsed as a vig shot isn't intrinsically scummy

It would help if he was saying he was towncasing himself tho, ya

I mean, he basically did.

I went through the iso and post thoughts on possible connection. DeasVail did the same thing, except instead of looking for connections and offering an analysis (y'know, scum-hunting), he just offered that he thinks nomnomnom was eventually going to call him scum, so we shouldn't think he's scum.

I went through nom’s ISO a while back before I voted Otter.

Humor me. Quote yourself.

[Kublai Khan]

Could nom have not voted her scumbuddy? I mean, a scum kirari that's trying to act all town leaderish and endear herself to town doesn't exactly seem like an impossibility to me.

If nomnomnom voted to lynch her scum-buddie, the game would have been over and she'd have lost.

A single vote on ofhrz doesn't Lynch her

If ofrhz is the groupscum, then no.. it doesn't lynch her, but it's an unnecessary risk.
If LuckyOtter is the groupscum, then nomnomnom adding the last vote loses the game.

Also, could you post with your main? You haven't even confirmed who you are.

[Kublai Khan]

Lmao. Nom I fucking love and hate you. I don't even know what to do with this game anymore.

I'm off camping this weekend and won't be able to post til Sunday evening at the very soonest. I'll try to wrap my head around everything then.

This opening line still seems funky to me though

If LuckyOtter was group scum, he would not know that nomnomnom was the traitor.

The traitor flip was seen this morning so how could he not have known nom was a traitor

Oh, good point. I dunno. it's funky, but it's funky either way.

[Kublai Khan]

Oh?

Anyway, I've looked over some things again and I feel like everything points to

VOTE: LuckyOtter?

Okay, you've got nothing as a defense. Got it.

[Kublai Khan]

Gollum is nero

What did you think of my analysis and DV/LuckyOtter as the choices?

@Nero Cain - Same question

[Kublai Khan]

VOTE: lucky otter

Khan can just shoot dead tonight if the game isn't over

Eh.. flip it. If DeasVail doesn't flip scum, I'll shoot LuckyOtter.

[Kublai Khan]

Oh?

Anyway, I've looked over some things again and I feel like everything points to

VOTE: LuckyOtter?

Okay, you've got nothing as a defense. Got it.

I don't even know what I'm defending against tbh

Okay. Well, I guess you have until your lynch to figure it out.

[Kublai Khan]

To be fair I had the same thought about how signaling would work. My only defense is that nom clearly didn't use that strategy toward Red. And I was nom's first straight up 'townread' only after you, btw, so it's not like nom came in with the strategy of signaling just one of the scum by townreading them right off the bat, unless it's you somehow. I'm just thinking there was no signaling and nom was working associatives very carefully. So nom avoiding talking about Vork, for example, doesn't dissuade me from thinking he's scum.

I get what you're saying, but realistically you were at L-1 and nomnomnom absolutely would not hammer. She could have easily justified placing the hammering vote, but didn't.

If you were town, I don't really understand why she'd delay a hammering vote on a townie for so long and risk a last minute quick wagon on her actual partner.

If you were me, would you allow LuckyOtter to make it to LYLO?

[Kublai Khan]

Well, both DeasVail and LuckyOtter are amenable to their fates. Which gives me pause, because that's pretty townie. But I think we should go through with it.

If they both turn town and I'm likely dead as well. I think Nero Cain and Vorkuta are the next tier of suspects.

[Kublai Khan]

Yes it obviously looks that way, but my point is that when I flip and turn out to be the short stop (or something, I don't do sports analogies), you'll need to rethink what the play was.

You don't sound confident that DeasVail will flip scum.

[Kublai Khan]

So we either lynch Vork or DV today and vig me, or lynch me and let KK decide who to vig.

The lynch DeasVail and vig LuckyOtter plan is already a go.

And if Nero wants to show up and do something that'd be great too.

Seriously.

[Kublai Khan]

Well, I said a while ago. DeasVail today. LuckyOtter tonight.

Beyond that Vorkuta and Nero Cain are next tier of scummyness.

Kiraki Momobami and ofrhz are towniest.

I may be wrong, but nothing posted today has changed my mind. Anyone can hammer whenever they want.

[Kublai Khan]

Woo! Thanks for the game NK15!

Yeah, we got some early luck of Creature not sending in his commute. I had a gut-twitch from him about the rolefishing and I knew he'd be a constant suspect who many hesitate to lynch because they give him way too much latitude. The Red slip was top notch.

nom did a great job. Her push that an SK had to exist made me drop in that "informed" nugget to ward off the idea that there was a SK. And I tried to word it just right "I know who the OTHER vig is" to signal to pops. nom's frustration was the lack of full knowledge came off as town, but the insistence of a SK made me think she was the traitor. In retrospect, I think I was far too obvious, but nom really pulled the info out.

Speaking of "Informed", what a great addition to mafia. This is the first time I played with informed roles. It's such a double-think. Someone mentioned early on that Niko might be fishing with mafia informed knowledge of a vig or BP existing, and that info just stuck in my head. Niko's quibbling and backtracking, just made me strongly doubt him and my knowledge that there was a backup made it easy to rope him instead of exposing myself to try to quasi-confirm him.

[Kublai Khan]

Yeah, DV. You were in a tight spot. Just remember even fake scum-hunting looks town.

[Kublai Khan]

Yeah, you guys had many bad breaks. Plus I credit LuckyOtter and ohfrhz for looking town that day. It would have been amazing if I had led a lynch on DeasVail, but I couldn't articulate my feeling on DeasVail as a convincing case.

Still, the lynch on JesusLouisus wasn't totally bad (sorry JL!), he was a wildcard that I couldn't read and it was better to bring my townreads forward.

[Kublai Khan]

This was a mountainous setup in the sense that it had no investigative roles, is what I think people mean. If they mean that it's a mountainous setup in the sense that it has neither investigative nor protective roles, they're being silly, because vigs and doctors are actually very very similar.
I think it was a pretty good setup, and I think it seemed like the town played better than the scum. I would rather Creature bother to send in his night actions then get free wins though.

Yeah, once I figured out the likely setup, it got a lot easier.

Did you know I was the other vig, pops?

[Kublai Khan]

I strongly suspected it because you're the only one who would have killed rosterfoster
I didn't have it locked in though I was ready for you to claim something that made lots of sense the next day.

Heh. Okay cool.

Good job on nom. We rocked the vig roles.