Lil Uzi Vert's Large Normal Review, June 2019

[Something_Smart]

Ego.

Why the mafia visitors?

[Something_Smart]

I don't think it's hugely scumsided or townsided. I think it's pretty swingy and overly nightplay-focused because all of town's power is either crucial or useless. Whether the watcher gets taken out without getting a guilty and how long the hider lives are likely going to determine whether town crushes or gets crushed, and that feels kinda bad.

Also, for a setup that's based around mafia visitors, you have a whopping one town role that can interact with them.

I know I'm supposed to suggest a change that can be immediately passed. I'll do that tonight, but I would recommend you not take it so we can talk through this a little more, because my personal opinion is that it's an interesting idea not yet at its full potential.

[Something_Smart]

Not saying this is at all good, but it would be my first thought at how to balance this and make it somewhat interesting.

Town Bulletproof Enabler
Town Bulletproof
Town Macho x2
Town Mason
Town Ascetic Mason
Town Mason Mailman
Town Macho Watcher
Town Tracker
Town Backup Tracker
VT x7

Mafia Bulletproof Traitor
Mafia Informed Visitor (There is a full watcher)
Mafia Informed Visitor (There are players that can communicate privately, other than the mafia factional communication)
Mafia Macho

[Something_Smart]

Tracker + Watcher isn't too much because they don't really do the same thing at all. Tracker is about having accurate scumreads, watcher is about guessing who will die.

It would be cool to inform scum of both a tracker and a watcher. That way they have to balance sending their scummiest member in case the watcher sees them with sending their member least likely to be tracked.

Splitting the watcher into even odd is too powerful. It's conceivable for one watcher to get a guilty and then get killed while watched by the other watcher who promptly gets ANOTHER guilty which is almost certainly game over. I don't want there to be the possibility for more than one watcher guilty... in the original setup as well as my revision, after a watcher claims, scum should know that they're safe to kill it because they weren't given any tools to stop a protective.

I also don't really like mason hider; that's pretty much mason commuter because you just hide behind scumreads who won't die at night, and that's extremely powerful.

[Something_Smart]

Sorry busy few days.

The neighbors feel really flat and uninteresting here. Is there a point to them, other than to confuse the "there is private communication" scum informed?

[Something_Smart]

With the removal of the traitor, the tracker is almost never going to provide any value unless town is already crushing. Its primary utility will be becoming conftown if the backup tracker claims or flips.

That basically means town has 4-5 conftowns with a chance of a watcher guilty against scum which can potentially fool all of town's investigative power (and the town investigatives will NEVER catch scum in a lie unless they see the kill). I think town needs more power.

I take it from all the red herring macho modifiers you don't want a protective?

I feel like something funky that's loyal/disloyal/simple/complex could help. Those are investigative but depending on the role, not overly so.

Disloyal doc + watcher is a pretty funny combo.

Voyeur could also be interesting, because the scum visitors will show up as "miscellaneous," I believe.

[Something_Smart]

Sorry, I haven't forgotten about this.

What are party animal and cowardly? I don't recognize those, and greylist roles aren't allowed anymore.

[Something_Smart]

Party Animal is a bit of a shame, that is a cool role. For Cowardly Rolecop, I think that's just a Traitor Combined Hider Rolecop, which is normal.

...That said, I wouldn't recommend using it. It will feel terrible for both the scum and the traitor if they kill the traitor's target.

[Something_Smart]

Town Backup Tracker
Town Loyal Fruit Vendor
Town Macho Innocent Child
Town Macho
Town Mason Ascetic
Town Mason Voyeur
Town Mason Mailman
Town Macho Watcher
Town Tracker
Town Weak Vigilante
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT

Mafia Traitor Rolecop
Mafia Informed Visitor
Mafia Informed Visitor
Mafia Macho

Man, you really like hardclears, don't you. 3 masons + IC + tracker will likely be cleared + vig + God knows how many loyal FV clears. I think this setup would be won or lost entirely on how good scum are at killing PR's.

I would recommend you remove some of the hardclearing roles and replace them with ones that muddy the waters a bit. I wouldn't recommend you make all three of these changes, but one or two of them might be cool:
Loyal Fruit Vendor -> Loyal Simple Fruit Vendor
Macho IC -> Macho N3 IC or Macho N4 IC
Weak Vigilante -> Disloyal Weak Vigilante

Just some changes to make these roles more strategic, situation dependent, and possible to play around for scum. If you have any other ideas feel free to bring them up, ideally we can get the setup to a place we both like without having tons of confirmed town.

[Something_Smart]

You should check this out, it will tell you what is and isn't normal.

I agree that, from the earlier version, town needed more power, but I think the power needs to be more subtle and ambiguous than loyal fruit vendor (which is basically cop) and weak vig (which is only a bit less strong than regular vig, which is insane in a large).

Pedit: this was written before I saw the most recent draft. Let me check it out.

[Something_Smart]

I just always thought disloyal fruit vendor was such a rude role, to be honest. It's like a cop, but with the extra added humiliation of being complicit in guiltying yourself, and it's paranoia inducing if you get an inno.

A Disloyal role like that can only get guilties, but town already has two trackers and a watcher that can get guilties but not innocents. I don't think it's necessary.

That said, I would approve of you changing it to a disloyal simple fruit vendor, something which can confirm a player isn't a mafia goon but in this setup can't actually get a guilty. It combos nicely with tracker seeing someone go nowhere. I think, with that change, town will have about the right amount of power.

Also, I don't know if this is something you'd want to change, but it would be interesting to make the scum informed visitor who knows about private communication into a traffic analyst. Obviously they will then know about private communication without even needing to be informed, and they can catch the masons but they can also catch their own traitor by accident.

I'm not saying you have to-- suggest a setup you like, of course-- but if you did make those two changes, I would pass it.

[Something_Smart]

Visitor is still way less useful to scum than an actual visiting role would be, since those can also be seen by trackers/watchers, obviously. I definitely think scum need something to help them deal with the masons, because with all the potential craziness I'm afraid of all three of them living until pretty late and making it unwinnable for scum. Maybe just turn the mason voyeur into a regular voyeur? Would you be opposed to that?

[Something_Smart]

Town Backup Tracker Neighbor
Town Disloyal Simple Fruit Vendor
Town Loyal Simple Fruit Vendor
Town Macho
Town Macho N3 Innocent Child
Town Mason Ascetic
Town Mason Mailman
Town Voyeur
Town Macho Watcher
Town Tracker
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT

Mafia Traitor Rolecop Neighbor
Mafia Informed Visitor (there are players who can privately communicate, other than in the mafia PT)
Mafia Informed Visitor (there is a town watcher)
Mafia Macho

I officially approve this setup.

However, if you don't mind, I would like to see the role PM's just to double-check that you explained all the modifiers and stuff correctly.

[Something_Smart]

Any update on the role PM's?