[CHALLENGE] July Challenge

This forum is for discussion of individual Open Setups, including theoretical balance.
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Post Post #1 (isolation #0) » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:59 pm

Post by chennisden »

Pick A Neighbor

(a 13 player setup)

Mostly mountainous, with one fun powerup!

During
any day,
you may vote to give the
Pass-it-On-Neighborizer
power to someone.
Make sure that the scum don't get it!


If you are the
Pass-it-on-Neightborizer,
you target someone during the night and you give them your power. They become your neighbor for the following
day-phase
ONLY. If you are killed, the power still passes to the other person. They just don't get a neighborhood. If your target is killed, you keep your power, but you don't get a neighborhood.
Last edited by chennisden on Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #2 (isolation #1) » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:00 pm

Post by chennisden »

probs rly townsided but who cares! it is great fun!

also i tried this time (which is why i made the power role be a vote which is objectively better)

does it satisfy the 3rd requirement?
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Post Post #4 (isolation #2) » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:40 am

Post by chennisden »

argh ANY DAY PHASE

ok ez

You CAN do it on D0

And any other day as well
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Post Post #5 (isolation #3) » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:41 am

Post by chennisden »

I also didn't try to satisfy req 1, the req just gave me the idea (and since conf towning a slot is bad i just did shenanigans)
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Post Post #26 (isolation #4) » Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:42 pm

Post by chennisden »

In post 14, Ircher wrote:
Surviving Ropes and Guns

13p setup: 9 Town, 3 Mafia, 1 Neutral Survivor

This game is night start, but there is no kill n0. During night zero, the survivor must choose how many lynches the town gets the following day (think like Double Day). After n0 ends, the town gets to play through that many days. Then, the game enters an equivalent number of nights. At the end of the last night, the neutral survivor (if still alive) gets to choose how many lynches town gets like on night 0. This process continues until the town or mafia have won. If at any point, the survivor is dead, the game goes back to a normal day/night cycle.
Survivor outs themselves and chooses 12.

Lynching survivor doesn't help

No matter what survivor wins.
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Post Post #27 (isolation #5) » Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:45 pm

Post by chennisden »

i guess the setups at this point are

{tl chen}
{nk15}
{rest}
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Post Post #28 (isolation #6) » Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:47 pm

Post by chennisden »

sorry nk 15 but that is way too complicated
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Post Post #30 (isolation #7) » Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:55 pm

Post by chennisden »

In post 1, chennisden wrote:
Pick A Neighbor

(a 13 player setup)

Mostly mountainous, with one fun powerup!

During
any day,
you may vote to give the
Pass-it-On-Neighborizer
power to someone.
Make sure that the scum don't get it!


If you are the
Pass-it-on-Neightborizer,
you target someone during the night and you give them your power. They become your neighbor for the following
day-phase
ONLY. If you are killed, the power still passes to the other person. They just don't get a neighborhood. If your target is killed, you keep your power, but you don't get a neighborhood.
Changed to 13p because 9p doesn't let the power really do stuff.

Should the power die if the target is NKed? I am leaning towards yes to give scum some power
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Post Post #31 (isolation #8) » Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:56 pm

Post by chennisden »

In post 29, Ircher wrote:By definition, lynching the survivor causes them to lose as they did not manage to survive.

Still, here's a somewhat modified version:

Surviving Ropes and Guns
v2.0.0.0
13p setup: 9 Town, 3 Mafia, 1 Neutral Survivor

This game is night start, but there is no kill n0. During night zero, the survivor must choose how many lynches the town gets the following day (think like Double Day). This number must be at least one and cannot exceed three. After n0 ends, the town gets to play through that many days. Then, the game enters an equivalent number of nights. At the end of the last night, the neutral survivor (if still alive) gets to choose how many lynches town gets like on night 0. This process continues until the town or mafia have won. If at any point, the survivor is dead, the game immediately shifts to night if the death occurred in the day and to day if the death occurred at night. The game then proceeds with a normal day/night cycle.
There's no reason to lynch the survivor. If the town and survivor can agree that they'll turn it into the townsided nightless and town can agree not to lynch the survivor then gg ez

And survivor can just decide to turn on town when mafia+1 = town
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Post Post #32 (isolation #9) » Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:57 pm

Post by chennisden »

I could probably still break it, I'll get back to you on that.
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Post Post #33 (isolation #10) » Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:58 pm

Post by chennisden »

Yeah wasting the nightkill on the survivor is stupid and wasting the lynch on the survivor is also stupid.
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Post Post #34 (isolation #11) » Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:59 pm

Post by chennisden »

If you use the mechanic but take out the survivor that would be better.
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Post Post #36 (isolation #12) » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:01 pm

Post by chennisden »

wait here's a rly good shitpost

9p "invite the neighbors"

there is a neighborhood thread containing all alive players. ONE neighborhood. there is also a neighborhood containing all the scum.

if u die you go to this exclusive 'hood called the dead thread! wow!

lol i just broke it

EDIT:

This is a joke post BLEASE BLEASE See which is not a jokepost and is valid (I changed setup so it would be valid after STK commented.)
Last edited by chennisden on Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #37 (isolation #13) » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:02 pm

Post by chennisden »

In post 35, Ircher wrote:In that case, I'd have to make the number of phases random? I dunno; seems like that defeats the purpose of the setup.
No, maybe alternate between town voting and mafia choosing.
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Post Post #38 (isolation #14) » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:02 pm

Post by chennisden »

But I don't see any reason town doesn't choose {max} and mafia doesn't choose {1}
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Post Post #40 (isolation #15) » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:07 pm

Post by chennisden »

But I think the setup is inherently broken.

With the survivor, you get someone who is already guaranteed to win and doesn't care whether town/mafia win who gets to call all the shots. Without survivor there isn't really a point to anyone deciding.

(Also survivor optimal play is to always choose 3 and make it nearly impossible for mafia to win, so they wont waste your shot on you, and town wont lynch you. But I dont think survivor ever dies anyways.)
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Post Post #41 (isolation #16) » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:11 pm

Post by chennisden »

Survivor always wins no matter what.

Let's say they choose 3. Best case for mafia is that all of them are town lynches

9 town 3 mafia 1 surv

3 town 3 mafia 1 surv

then surv can just scum side.

Let's say they kill 1 scum.

4 town 2 mafia 1 surv

Again, survivor just chooses 3. Town must get all the mafia to win and they wouldn't waste a lynch on the survivor.

Let's say they kill 2 scum.

5 town 1 mafia 1 surv

Again, survivor chooses 3. If town doesn't get the mafia they lose, so see above. Survivor wins.

And let's say they kill all the scum

Well town wins.
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Post Post #42 (isolation #17) » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:13 pm

Post by chennisden »

In post 9, Irrelephant11 wrote:
Open Box of Silver9p,
7
v
2


During the day phase, scum must split all players into 2-person neighborhoods without overlap. These neighborhoods take effect during the night, and only last one night. Scum also have continuous scumchat, but scumchat is not considered a neighborhood.
Scum
must
also choose one neighborhood to give a Watcher action to.
Scum
may
also choose one
other
neighborhood to give a Jailkeep action to. If scum ever choose to give the Watcher action to a neighborhood with two scum in it, they must also give out the Jailkeep action that night. If scum ever choose to give the Watcher action to a neighborhood that has one scum in it for the second or third night in a row, they must also give out the jailkeep action that night.

Within each neighborhood that has a night action, both members must choose a target for the night action. The two neighbors may choose the same or different targets. At the end of the night phase, mod will randomly choose one of the neighbors to enact that night action on their chosen target.

On Day 4, the game becomes nightless.


Let's see if this can become an open :P :D
How? 2 does not divide 9.
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Post Post #43 (isolation #18) » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:16 pm

Post by chennisden »

Also I think the random action is silly

Just let the neighbors choose
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Post Post #47 (isolation #19) » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:21 pm

Post by chennisden »

Even if it isnt technically broken it is still unfun for everyone except the survivor.

And I feel like even the survivor would be rly bored
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Post Post #48 (isolation #20) » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:23 pm

Post by chennisden »

Rc what do you think of TL setup
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Post Post #49 (isolation #21) » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:24 pm

Post by chennisden »

I feel like the challenge is in a way unfun because neighborhood setups tend to be annoying.
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Post Post #52 (isolation #22) » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:28 pm

Post by chennisden »

it's hard to design a good open.

i also think TL's setup is probably like the best suggested so far and I think that's because challenges inherently tend to have stupid restrictions.

it's really hard to design the challenges so the challenges end up sucking and the setups end up sucking.
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Post Post #53 (isolation #23) » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:39 pm

Post by chennisden »

uh, yeah

all of these setups are either

1) broken or extremely linear (see ircher)
2) an english essay (nk15)
3) not mafia (popsofctown)
and you just need to come to a consensus on who scum is. then force them to self vote

if they're scum they lose and if town then you still have a 25% of winning.
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Post Post #57 (isolation #24) » Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:31 pm

Post by chennisden »

In post 55, Ircher wrote:
The Four Seasons

9x Vanilla Townie
1x Town 1-Shot Seasonal Sensor
3x Mafia Goon

During a special pregame/Dawn phase (after everyone has received alignment; mafia can chat during this phase), players privately choose one of the four seasons: winter, spring, summer, or autumn. Players that do not pick in a timely manner are automatically assigned to Winter.

Once the Dawn phase ends, players become neighbors with players that chose the same season as them. Who is in what neighborhood is not publicly revealed. The game then continues like a normal game.

Once per game, the Seasonal Sensor can choose a season. They will learn how many scum-aligned players (both living and dead) are in that season's neighborhood.
nice!
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Post Post #58 (isolation #25) » Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:33 pm

Post by chennisden »

In post 56, OkaPoka wrote:
1 of N/2+1
9 Players
(though possible to upscale, probably should be 1ofN/(#ofScumMembersAtGameStart)+1

7 Vanilla Town

2 Mafia Goons


Standard Mountainous 7v2 Game (daytalk up to moderator discretion) with one hitch.
Town have another vote option they can reach by majority, which is using their 1ofN/2+1 ability.
They may use this ability only once.
Upon selection of this ability, the day phase will be paused, votes will be reset and the Mafia will have a full night cycle of time to select N/2 living players+1, but at least one of them must be Mafia aligned.
This list will be published at the start of the day, and the deadline will be unpaused.
Mafia have access to the nightkill.

Inspired by liars v millers by psyche and the 1of4 ability in gameshow mafia by BNP

With one mafia dead, it clears effectively half the playerlist upon selection of the ability.

also please criticize
esp balance i dont know how to calculate balance
force it to be used before first mafia dies.

or it's really really toxic.
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Post Post #76 (isolation #26) » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:30 am

Post by chennisden »

Let Mafia assign the neighborhoods pregame.
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Post Post #77 (isolation #27) » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:34 am

Post by chennisden »

In post 67, Cinnamon wrote:
Group Investigation
13 Players
(not entirely sure what playercount this would work best at)

10 Vanilla Town

3 Mafia Goons


This is a mountainous game with one twist. Each night, if there is a lynch, all players that voted for the lynch are put into a neighborhood and all players that did not vote for the lynch are put into a separate neighborhood.

Each player then submits a name (privately by PM) of a player they wish to investigate, and may choose themselves.

If all players in a neighborhood chose the same player, the alignment of that player is revealed in that neighborhood at the start of the day. If town, that player is protected from night kills both that night and the following night. All neighborhoods are only for that night and are locked upon the start of the day.

This effect lasts until there is only one mafia goon left, at which point the game returns to regular mountainous.

Thought it would be fun to do one of these, let me know how it looks. Not positive this ratio is best for balance.
In addition to NK15's strategy, each neighborhood should decide on an investigation target. If it fails you know your hood has mafia and if it succeeds... well, that's self explanatory.

I suggest removing the "that player is protected from night kills" provision.
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Post Post #83 (isolation #28) » Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:39 pm

Post by chennisden »

Is it balanced? Yes

But the central mechanic is pointless
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Post Post #95 (isolation #29) » Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:01 pm

Post by chennisden »

In post 93, Carl Tuckerson wrote:
In post 92, popsofctown wrote:Innocent Child
I don't get the verb form of that. I got what IC was but not "ICed"
Sorry that's on me

What I was trying to say was

Don't have people be confirmed town through mechanics, or almost-always-confirmed-town, or something scum has to CC to win, or something. (See "Follow the Cop" for an example)
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Post Post #96 (isolation #30) » Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:04 pm

Post by chennisden »

In post 90, popsofctown wrote:
String of Disappearances Mafia

8 Vanilla Townies
2 Mafia Goons

On Day One, the town may give up to one player Night 1 Bulletproof. There isn't a lynch day 1.
Night One, the mafia can neither no-kill nor target the bulletproof player.
On the verge of the nightkill victim's death, that mod has that player investigate another player, then vig another player (this can be compressed into one PM with an if X then Y statement).
If the vig victim is mafia aligned, this is over, but if the vig victim is town-aligned, this chain repeats indefinitely.
Sucks to be the nightkill victim

Also what happens after

Like, doesn't this guarantee a mafia dies

Does the vig victim die
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Post Post #97 (isolation #31) » Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:10 pm

Post by chennisden »

Nick "Doc" Holliday is also v stupid

If you're an IC activating will just deny town a flip and confirm "the IC is town aligned" which is v bad
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Post Post #106 (isolation #32) » Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:10 pm

Post by chennisden »

oooh fun
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Post Post #108 (isolation #33) » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:00 am

Post by chennisden »

Wouldn't that mean having 2 mafia flip make town auto win
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Post Post #109 (isolation #34) » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:01 am

Post by chennisden »

So

D1/N1 Person A flips mafia
D2/N2 Person B flips mafia

reset

Then lynch A/B???
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Post Post #111 (isolation #35) » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:16 am

Post by chennisden »

oh, i see
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Post Post #130 (isolation #36) » Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:05 am

Post by chennisden »

it's a neighborhood PT yes.
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Post Post #131 (isolation #37) » Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:06 am

Post by chennisden »

In post 1, chennisden wrote:
Pick A Neighbor

(a 13 player setup)

Mostly mountainous, with one fun powerup!

During
any day,
you may vote to give the
Pass-it-On-Neighborizer
power to someone.
Make sure that the scum don't get it!


If you are the
Pass-it-on-Neightborizer,
you target someone during the night and you give them your power. They become your neighbor for the following
day-phase
ONLY. If you are killed, the power still passes to the other person. They just don't get a neighborhood. If your target is killed, you keep your power, but you don't get a neighborhood.
Uh TL I have a non-joke setup pls look

I think this is actually a semi-decent setup but ig my joke setup didn't help it be seen

I think it's obvious but
This is the Actual Setup I'm Submitting
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Post Post #133 (isolation #38) » Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:09 am

Post by chennisden »

In post 121, Ircher wrote:In order from most favored to least favored setup:

1. The Four Seasons (Ircher): First of all, it is my own setup. Though it may be swingy, I really like the choose your neighbors-type mechanic in it. It also reminds me of another game I played here that actually did feature that part of the mechanic.

2. Group Investigation (Cinnamon): While a simple setup, I like the idea.

3. Take Two (mith): It's an interesting setup, though it may be a little frustrating since there are no flips.

4. Open Box of Silver (Irrelephant11): I think it's a cool setup, and I like how you model it after a series of closed games. That said, I don't think randomness is that great of a thing, and I also think watcher abilities tend to lead setups that swing too wildly against scum. Jailkeeper is also apparently a strong power to give out as well, so I think the balance of the setup may significantly favor town.

5. 1 of N/2 + 1 (OkaPoka): Having played Liars and Millers by Psyche, which was very similar to this, I'd say this mechanic is pretty fun. The only concern I have is again balance--in Liars and Millers, the setup swung wildly in town's favor. This version seems to be even more swingy especially the longer people wait on doing this power.

6. Dance Party Mafia (Carl Tuckerson): The setup seems interesting, but not one that I'd personally like to play.

7. Don't Gooch Your Neighbor (Boonskiies): This seems like a wild and fun setup, but I'm not sure I fully understand it. If I did, this setup would probably have been higher in my list.

8. Divide and Conquer (Skygazer): A simpler setup that seems to be balanced. (It's a lot less fun though when scum get to choose neighborhoods.)

9. The Scythes (popsofctown): This setup just didn't really interest me that much.

10. Job Application (Oversoul): This setup doesn't look balanced at a glance. It also didn't interest me that much, sorry!

11. Soul Gem Mafia (TemporalLich): While I like the mechanic, this setup is basically 7-2 mountainous, and the site as a whole agrees that pure mountainous setups are bad.

12. Council Infilitration (Not Known 15): While you tried your best to shorten it down, it is still too long and complicated for me to really even try to understand it. I could if I had unlimited time, but I do not. Furthermore, I think that will be a large problem when running the setup in practice--people will not understand how it works because it is so long and so complicated.

13. Invite the Neighbors (chennisden): This setup does not fit the spirit of the rules and should be disqualified.
also re: my setup i think it's obvious that was a joke setup/not my entry and i have a legitimate setup - "pick a neighbor"
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Post Post #134 (isolation #39) » Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:09 am

Post by chennisden »

In post 132, TemporalLich wrote:gonna edit that in and change my vote... I swear I thought singletonking disqualified that setup but it is a valid setup.
He did but I changed it slightly to make it work.
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Post Post #142 (isolation #40) » Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:04 am

Post by chennisden »

In post 140, mith wrote:
Spoiler: chennisden, Carl Tuckerson
chennisden (Pick A Neighbor) - This isn't actually a complete setup description (how many scum?). I'm not sure the mechanic adds much to the game beyond Vanilla (see comment on TemporalLich's).

Carl Tuckerson (Dance Party) - I'm going to limit this to the 12 player setup for my sanity. So this is basically 3:9 with a one-shot dayvig and a whole lot of "census" information due to the initial pairings. It's not clear whether the bouncer has to use his ability publicly or not, though I don't think it matters much for EV. It should be used immediately for parity reasons, and there is a not insignificant probability of reducing to 2:9 with 3 ICs, and a 4th if the first lynched scum's partner isn't already dead. A miss is probably rough, even with all the information; might be reasonably balanced overall, really. But it's a lot of swing on that first decision.


Final list [edit]including setup names, and some rearranging within "tiers"[/edit]

Take Two (mith)
1 of N/2+1 (OkaPoka)
Group Investigation (Cinnamon)
The Four Seasons (Ircher)

Dance Party (Carl Tuckerson)
Descent Into Madness (popsofctown)

Divide and Conquer (Skygazer)
Soul Gem (TemporalLich)
Open Box of Silver (irrelephant11)
Council Infiltration (Not Known 15)

Pick A Neighbor (chennisden)
Job Application (Oversoul)
Don't Gooch Your Neighbor (Boonskiies)
oh right 3 scum
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