Mini Theme 2083 - Vengeful Ghosts Endgame

[Pine]

VOTE: Chickadee

Stoopid birb

[Pine]

VOTE: Chickadee

Stoopid birb

Worst fox.

My vote just became real.

We're breaking up as friends over this game.

[/hate]

[Pine]

I haven’t played with Pine before, does he usually try to have more of a presence early as scum?

Eh, I used to be tryhard as either alignment, but I’m old and regardless of alignment I usually coast through D1 until the gamestate settles a bit. I loathe the early frenzy, and really like the midgame.

The Binary Star TR on my RVS banter with Chickadee is strange. It deserves some pressure.

VOTE: Binary Star

[Pine]

Here’s how you know if I’m scum: if I look Towny, be suspicious.

[Pine]

Here’s how you know if I’m scum: if I look Towny, be suspicious.

Very towny post

-The Joker

Shit does that make me scum?

Halp

[Pine]

@Flavor Leaf: you’re striking me as Town. I can get behind the gut notion that one of the hydrae are scum. Hard to put my finger on it, something to do with all flash/no substance or distracting control of the conversation without real content. Which it occurs to me are essentially two ways of saying the same thing, by YMMV

[Pine]

Hard to put my finger on it, something to do with all flash/no substance or distracting control of the conversation without real content.

So you believe we made the decision to shitpost and meme *after* reading a scum role PM, and not something we'd do anyway when we formed the hydra?

You've not had this feeling till FL made that post?

-The Joker

A) No, and don’t put words in my mouth please and thank you.

And B) Just because FL said something which made sense and I decided to agree with him doesn’t invalidate either opinion.

[Pine]

Debby doggie dog, claim Not VT for me

I know FL is a fearless player

but does scum!him actually role fish so blatantly

Yes

-B

Would he do it as town though?

As a rule, if you're going to do something as scum, do it as Town. There are behaviors you can do as Town which you wouldn't as scum, but not the other way around.

FL is pro enough to know this.

[Pine]

Noooo Chickadeeeee

[Pine]

If I die today, pay attention to all the flimsy jumps on this wagon.

Awww, Chickadee...are you actually scum here? This martyred attitude does not match Townadee.

[Pine]

If I die today, pay attention to all the flimsy jumps on this wagon.

Awww, Chickadee...are you actually scum here? This martyred attitude does not match Townadee.

No, I'm not.


Just ~reasons~

Ok

I trust you fren

[Pine]

The Chickadee wagon is suspicious as fuck.

[Pine]

Noooo Chickadeeeee

inb4 Chickadee is 3*Hated

These are really weird and really weirdly timed posts

How so? They're pretty transparently flippant sarcasm.

[Pine]

No, they are

The timing of the pop ins themselves just feel weird instead of like, actually hopping on the wagon

It just feels like a way to blend into the rapid wagon building without actually contributing or doing anything

Except not only did I not join the wagon, I later did a gut check on her and declared a TR on her. It helps to consider the whole context before making broad and flexible statements like "this is weird."

I tend to coast D1 if nothing catches my eye. Nothing really has yet. I tend to play the midgame.

[Pine]

That big ass Arkham post is way too long, scummy vibes from long posts for sure.

Yeah, this post pings me. That long post was one of the only things I've liked out of AA, and your objection is "too much content?"

[Pine]

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Except not only did I not join the wagon, I later did a gut check on her and declared a TR on her. It helps to consider the whole context before making broad and flexible statements like "this is weird."

I did find your later posts considering the wagon better than I found your earlier posts

That was just my gut reaction to seeing those posts upon catching up

Fair enough. This is why I like to do stream-of-consciousness catchups in a single post, rather than the Creature style. Lets you see the whole picture.

[Pine]

I feel like I (regrettably) picked up a towntell from Arkham.

Also, the hydra dissonance from Binary Star comes off as contrived. That comment about “we have a stated TR and I want to be concordant” especially set off alarm bells. If you have a disagreement, you either figure it out in your PT or you outright state “we don’t agree on this.” Binary Star is hedging their bets depending on how things go.

Keeping my BS vote.

I agree with rising suspicion of DEB, but having a hard time pinpointing the problem. Tonal, maybe? Overall tactical impression? Dunno.

[Pine]

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I think whoever said second that the big hydras had a scum is probably a wolf here

Read Pine's ISO, temme what you think.

-TJ

Well shit, my new post was poorly-timed.

I was probably the second one on, but never committed to it. Besides, the scum!hydra looks like BS now anyway.

[Pine]

If I die today, pay attention to all the flimsy jumps on this wagon.

Awww, Chickadee...are you actually scum here? This martyred attitude does not match Townadee.

The Chickadee wagon is suspicious as fuck.

I don't really like the overall disconnect between these two posts.

It's because you're leaving a shit ton of posts in between. You can probably go through anyone's ISO and cherry-pick two posts to make that argument.

[Pine]

VOTE: Chickadee

Stoopid birb

VOTE: Chickadee

Stoopid birb

Worst fox.

My vote just became real.

We're breaking up as friends over this game.

[/hate]

I haven’t played with Pine before, does he usually try to have more of a presence early as scum?

Eh, I used to be tryhard as either alignment, but I’m old and regardless of alignment I usually coast through D1 until the gamestate settles a bit. I loathe the early frenzy, and really like the midgame.

The Binary Star TR on my RVS banter with Chickadee is strange. It deserves some pressure.

VOTE: Binary Star

Noooo Chickadeeeee

If I die today, pay attention to all the flimsy jumps on this wagon.

Awww, Chickadee...are you actually scum here? This martyred attitude does not match Townadee.

If I die today, pay attention to all the flimsy jumps on this wagon.

Awww, Chickadee...are you actually scum here? This martyred attitude does not match Townadee.

No, I'm not.


Just ~reasons~

Ok

I trust you fren

The Chickadee wagon is suspicious as fuck.

Actual progression of my modest TR on Chickadee.

Seriously, if you're going to frame me, make it harder to rebut.

[Pine]

In other words, Chickadee's post 293 has what I suspect to be a pretty solid Towntell in it. Fakeable? Sure. But I don't think that's Chickadee's MO here.

[Pine]

Besides, 242/251 were joking posts near the start of her wagon, while 334 is a serious one after a really suspect wagon formed.

What about this doesn't make sense?

[Pine]

I agree with rising suspicion of DEB, but having a hard time pinpointing the problem. Tonal, maybe? Overall tactical impression? Dunno.

He had around 3 serious posts amongst a ton of other fluff posts. We thought the serious posts were scummy, and his rebuttal was a non-answer (jokingly?) lying that they were fluff too.

Can you look over at just those posts in context and tell me what you think? I'm on mobile, else would've quoted them myself.

-TJ

Hard to do without you identifying which posts you're referring to, but I can do a general ISO dive to explore my new read on DEB.

[Pine]

I have a bad snap wolfread on Easy Bake for copying my RVS reasoning

I mean I didn’t copy you. I planned my RVS once I saw the player list. Didn’t read your reasoning till you just mentioned it.
I think you’re the one copying me by way of time travel! So you should already know my alignment!

Planning RVS is hella scummy.

I'm not. You're all fools.

But I would not mind having to not deal with the gimmick posting so much.

I’m really not digging the ‘tude you’ve got going here VOTE: Chickadee

This comes off as self-serving and a fluffy reason to slime his way onto the Chickadee wagon.

That big ass Arkham post is way too long, scummy vibes from long posts for sure.

This was the first thing that actually vibed me about DEB.

Also, the ISO in general makes me want to consider a policy lynch, but for-reals PLs are so 2013.

PE: Yeah, BuJ, I'm already done

[Pine]

Shit, it's a no-flip ghost-posting game, so a PL wouldn't help much anyway

[Pine]

AA - can you guys keep chatter between each other in your PT?

Disagree, I think?

Having some insight into internal deliberations informs my read on them.

[Pine]

Y’all are way too paranoid about my playstyle. Sorry only one of you knows what I’m like (possibly more depending on who’s in the hydras) but that doesn’t mean I’m scum. I’m here to have a good time, so that’s what I’m doing.

Why do you reckon play style is the only reason people are suspicious of you?

I haven’t really seen any reasoning otherwise. People want to policy lynch me lol

That is not what was said. Mischaracterizing my reasoning like that is pretty much guaranteed to turn my weak SR on you into a full, raging murderlynch boner. I detest dishonest arguments.

[Pine]

Why is Pine town?

Easy, because I called him scum.

That's pretty open-and-shut.

[Pine]

To be honest.
With better writing (and by better writing I don't mean less puns, puns can be rather endearing), a tighter more coherent script less reliant on stupidity and downplaying rather than upplaying the sheer ridiculousness of comic books--with a more proper narrative?

The Mr. Freeze of that movie would be a

magnificent

villain. That aesthetic is actually kinda terrifying, and yet actually looks somewhat reasonably plausible. It's the sort of getup that would

almost

not be out of place in the Dark Knight trilogy. Almost. (It's a little more "out there" than, sayyy, Bane, but not by much.)

Like, looking at that image, the actual look of it is like a well and true, proper, villain--and the aesthetic of a villain permanently encased in ice pretty much was

magnificently

captured. A villain with that look, making puns, in of itself? Not a bad thing. It would actually be terrifying, and send

chills

down your spine. A casual, cool, calm, collected, deep, professional, yet cheesy line coming from a smooth-talking villain.

If that's what we got.

Then that film would've been AMAZING.

And if the problem was less "Batman slipping on ice" and more presenting the actual threat he posed.

Then the film would've been great.

You can clearly see the flashes of brilliance in the film, there, it just...wasn't quite...y'know. All...THERE. The writers, the director, the producer, took things in a different direction, ruining what was a really neat concept that could've been killer. (Plus, Mr. Freeze has pretty much always been a tragic villain, and having a tragic villain who still provides a source of actual real conflict, is an actual VILLAIN in spite of the tragedy and can play the part of one? Would've been so nice to see.)

But I digress.

That's a worthy digression. Arnold's Mr. Freeze was absolutely squandered on that movie.

[Pine]

I’ll be in my bunk.

[Pine]

Because you're weak, stoopid birb

[Pine]

There, all better? Moving right along.

(<3)

[Pine]

[Pine]

Vote-parking isn’t helping.

VOTE: DEB

L-2

[Pine]

Vote-parking isn’t helping.

VOTE: DEB

L-2

Jingle tells me there was a VC error and this is actually L-1. I stand by it.

[Pine]

Vote-parking isn’t helping.

VOTE: DEB

L-2

Spoiler:

What's vote-parking?

You know, it’s not the fluff that I find objectionable, it’s that you’re not taking this seriously.

[Pine]

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You haven’t answered my question tree baby.

Seriously? That's what you want to spend your time talking about?

Aside from the fact that it's obvious in context, vote-parking isn't even coded. It's having a vote parked somewhere, and is generally considered unproductive when it isn't accomplishing something.

[Pine]

I don't agree. He's not really being confrontational at all, he's being cavalier, barely acknowledging it. There's a significant attitudinal difference.

[Pine]

I don't agree. He's not really being confrontational at all, he's being cavalier, barely acknowledging it. There's a significant attitudinal difference.

Would you like me to be more confrontational?

That is...pretty distinctly not what I said.

Town!DEB should be getting proactive, finding someone else scummy, and prosecuting them. Dicking around just looks like you don't care, and are either burden on Town or caught scum who doesn't think they can pull it off, or at least thinks they can bluff their way out of it.

Also, Pinecone is how I refer to my daughter. I am a mighty and powerful pillar of the forest, not a child.

[Pine]

Is it just me or is mastina acting weird? Like not scummy but just very outside any meta I'm familiar with.

She's being weird site-wide, afaict

You know, it’s not the fluff that I find objectionable, it’s that you’re not taking this seriously.

I find this very amusing considering the one game I've played with you.

A) One game is pretty poor evidence for meta
B) Which game was that, so I know what you're talking about?

TL;DR don't hammer yet until we get more content out of the slots that haven't given much

So pure. So towny.

So fakeable.

I don't have a SR on Chemist, but don't give him credit for something so easily faked.

[Pine]

I have a bad snap wolfread on Easy Bake for copying my RVS reasoning

I mean I didn’t copy you. I planned my RVS once I saw the player list. Didn’t read your reasoning till you just mentioned it.
I think you’re the one copying me by way of time travel! So you should already know my alignment!

Planning RVS is hella scummy.

I'm not. You're all fools.

But I would not mind having to not deal with the gimmick posting so much.

I’m really not digging the ‘tude you’ve got going here VOTE: Chickadee

This comes off as self-serving and a fluffy reason to slime his way onto the Chickadee wagon.

That big ass Arkham post is way too long, scummy vibes from long posts for sure.

This was the first thing that actually vibed me about DEB.

Also, the ISO in general makes me want to consider a policy lynch, but for-reals PLs are so 2013.

PE: Yeah, BuJ, I'm already done

These three posts stood out to me as scummy, aside from fluff.

And what you're calling Townish stubbornness, I'm calling scum bluffing.

[Pine]

This game

Ok I think Pine has a good(s) point(s).

VOTE: DEB

Oh fuck, that game.

Umm, two things.

First, Product Placement was rather meme-y. It didn't lend itself to being taken seriously, and IIRC the balance of the players didn't either. This is a more typical game, and most people are taking this seriously. Yes, there's a gimmick, but it's not as meme-y and hasn't actually kicked in yet.

Second, look at the damn page count. I'm an old school player. Five, six, seven years ago, it was rare for a Mini to break 40-50 pages or a Large to break 100. Most were in the 30-40/70-80 range. That's over the course of a whole game. People didn't shitpost nearly as much, and when they did, it was usually a lot funnier. This game is pretty slow and sedate by modern standards, thank Mith. Today's games are

hard to read

. There are easily 3-4 times as many posts as are actually needed, and most of them are low-content. Gone are the days of thoughtful, considered wallposting. Hell, it's considered a little scummy to do so now, like "what's his angle?" Umm, gamesolving please and thank you. I digress. Where this affects me directly is

interest

and

effort

levels.

I am not an early game player, I like the midgame. Once there's a flip or two out there, some wagon analysis to be done, a few claims and maybe a PR result, that's where I shine. I loathe the early game. There are exceptions, where I get a hunch on D1 and hang on tight, but they're less common than a "Can we just get through this" attitude. Even in Product Placement, a meme-y, high traffic game where I wasn't really engaged, I lampshaded what I was doing. I followed along, and I made an effort to care. And when I saw something that I needed to address, I stated an opinion, slapped down a real vote, and did shit. I can't quote it because the thread's locked, but look at this progression of posts. They might be a little cherry-picked to prove my point, but prove it they do. Perhaps not coincidentally, your obvious scumminess was what pulled me into the game (even though I was wrong, and it was TvT. IIRC I eventually realized I was wrong before end of D1, though maybe that's because actual-scum Vecna turned my head.)

In contrast, I see zero evidence of give-a-fuck from DEB. Either he's scum trying to bluff his way past suspicion, or he's an actual detriment to Town. Either way, I'm happy with him as a D1 lynch unless something significant changes the gamestate (like a Vecna or w/e).

[Pine]

Ummm, that waxed long, but it was a good question deserving of a serious answer. And I do like talking about myself.

*smokebomb*

[Pine]

He *thinks* he acts the same, but there’s differences, like the aggro fluff.

This is just defensive.

Almost everyone thinks they're the same as Town and scum

[Pine]

I'm definitely different as scum and Town. The trick is to never do something as scum that you wouldn't plausibly do as Town. The other way around is fine, though. Town meta constrains scum meta, but not vice versa.

I don't think DEB bluffs like this as Town. I think he hears the objections and at least makes a modest good-faith effort to course-correct. His tone is all about, "Shit, how do I get out of this," not "Shit, how do I prove myself?"

[Pine]

Mixed in with him getting ran up early, I think it’s town.

*shrug*

It's really hard to say, especially in a flipless game where the dead can talk. I want to say that the mechanic takes a lot of pressure off of scum - the Town will remain uninformed until endgame. I think that engenders a cavalier attitude.

[Pine]

DrippingGoofball:

Paraphrasing a role PM takes seconds, fabricating a good fakeclaim takes an eternity.

Some of the sagest advice I've ever heard for this game.

And also, come the fuck on. That's at least the second ham-handed PR soft. You can't effectively say "I'm a PR" then tremble over the notion that it'll get you targeted. This is a classic appeal to anxiety.

[Pine]

Being a huge ponce and galloping around your REALLY COOL ROLE YOU CAN'T CLAIM BECAUSE THEY'LL KILL YOU FOR IT is functionally the same as CLAIMING except it denies town info.

This.

-B

And yeah, that's a great way to put it.

Shit, don't I scumread you? Stop making sense, you'll ruin things.

[Pine]

Still, I think the claim saves him. Scum will have to kill him sooner or later.

UNVOTE:

[Pine]

Hmmm

Indeed

Not sure if DEB is a good save, though.

[Pine]

Not sure if DEB is a good save, though.

Who else would you save?

Pretty much anyone. Not only do I think there's a better than even chance DEB is lying, it may also be a setup for a scum Watcher.

Further, if the alleged Doctor protects the Doc Enabler in order to keep Doc powers, in order to just use the power on a predictable target...that gets recursive in the first iteration. It essentially neutralizes the Doctor.

[Pine]

Good protects would be the AA hydra, Flavor Leaf, and mastina. All of them, if Town, are likely to be more productive as the game goes on, but may lose interest without an ongoing stake. The same is true for my own motivation, but I doubt I draw the kill.

[Pine]

It’s been DGB’s signature for longer than either RC or I have been around. RC was likely paraphrasing her, or at best developing a parallel maxim.

[Pine]

Second extension request

[Pine]

VOTE: DEB

Nope nope

Nakedly self-serving votes need to be responded to.

[Pine]

Doctor Enabler is the stupidest terrorist claim I've ever heard.
Don't lynch me guys
I ENABLE THE DOCTOR
Yeah like you won't TRACK ME to any ACTUAL WORTHWHILE RESULTS
bUt I eNaBlE tHe DoCtOr!
Who has EVER, EVER, willingly DESIGNED a game in which there was a DOCTOR ENABLER
And what kind of SADIST would design a NO FLIP GAME with a DOCTOR that needs an ENABLER in it?
Ya'll aren't thinking this through at all.
VOTE: Dr Easy Bake

-White

Look, I warned you against this whole "making sense" thing before. If you make me rethink that scumread any more, it'll really ruin my self-esteem.

(But srsly I like your reasoning and you can be Town for now)

[Pine]

Would you rather he claimed scum doctor enabler?

That is however the best reasoning for it that i’ve Seen.

I don’t believe he makes that claim up, though, so regardless of alignment, i feel he is a doctor enabler.

Actually, scum doctor enabler would be a really cool role.

His slot is self-sorting. We established that the doc doesn't target DEB, so he's a prime target for the NK as town regardless of claim validity.

If scum wants to keep him around as a later day mislynch, and he's saying the truth - at least we had an active doctor till then.

Claiming "town" doctor enabler isn't weird. Move off DEB.

-The Joker

The problem is that the game is flipless - we'll never get any kind of confirmation.

[Pine]

Scum is either on DEB or shading his claim.

~Harley

I don't agree.

[Pine]

DEB doesnt come up with that here on his own; he’s either true claiming as town, has that role or scum, or somebody coached him into it

Goodposting

Unless you can tell me why it's a bad idea to leave the slot and lynch it later if it survives, it's valid logic.

-The Joker

Plenty of good reason--DEB was widely scumread enough to be put at L-1. DEB hasn't contributed anything meaningful to progress the game state, develop reads, or make reading his slot easier. There's no indicator that DEB will do any of this if left alive. It only behooves us to lynch scum. The same 'well we can lynch it later if it survives' logic could literally be applied to ANY lynch on ANY slot on D1, too. Someone needs to eat the rope and I'm perfectly fine with the risk of losing a Doctor Enabler against the chance of catching scum here and now.

DEB doesnt come up with that here on his own; he’s either true claiming as town, has that role or scum, or somebody coached him into it

Why not?

-White

Hmmmm also goodposting.

Have you ever seen a playerlist not too chicken to kill or lynch FL anyway? It's not impressive if he's bussing

I'm pretty sure I've gotten it done before. That's the advantage of being a tree, and not a tasty semi-flightless avian.

[Pine]

Mastina - make this a priority? I want your input, even if you’re likely to call me scum.

[Pine]

ANNOUNCEMENT: I have done a meta deep dive (for certain values of "deep") on DEB and it significantly weakened some of my concerns about him. I can't go into too many details for ~reasons~.

I still think he'd be a good lynch in a typical game, for policy/instructive/flip purposes, but in a flipless game where he'd be able to keep talking, it's no longer attractive to me. FL and AA are also making good points about the slot being self-sorting.

UNVOTE:

With the demise of my Binary Star scumread, I'll have to give this some thought.

[Pine]

Not really.

[Pine]

As have I. DEB isn't happening today, though when he starts playing the game we might revisit it.

[Pine]

It is, but I believe it. This explains a lot.

VOTE: DEB

[Pine]

Lol am I dead? Just remember who kept flipping and flopping on my ass. In one page Pine has said my lynch wasn't happening and now he votes me. I'm a bit buzzed and a little bit drunk, and a little hot off of some sweet wrestling action. But I've had a blast here, if I;m dead whatever y'all will feel me with my votes. Booyaka Booyaka 619 bitches, its time to play the game bayyybeeeee

Something significant changed. Don't misrepresent my pivot.

[Pine]

How are ppl reading Binary rnow

Unassailable Town

[Pine]

I have information softconfirming that DEB was scum.

I will not be elaborating.

So let’s move off of the “if DEB was scum” angle.

[Pine]

Scum has practically no reason to bus.

DEB’s EOD wagon was likely 100% Town, though it’s possible someone was bussing out of habit.

[Pine]

Hmmmmmmmmm okay that’s fair.

[Pine]

You would have to full claim what you have before I can take a "soft innocent" seriously, and you should probably do so given how much you've already said.

-B

I think pine should try to explain more sbout his soft guilty also.

No.

[Pine]

Prodded. I'm here, I swear, but I'm a little behind.

Today is the first full day of summer camp, after a week of intensive staff training and preparation. I should have some time this afternoon, and from here out should be settling into a more regular schedule.

I'm been *trying* to keep up, but never seem to make it to current. My chief recollection is that Flavor Leaf is looking hella scummy lately, largely due to the way he's approached the DEB lynch and daystart, and his desire to see a massclaim. I can give more detail on this read when I've got more than five minutes to post.

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

[Pine]

For what it's worth I didn't ask pine to claim more details just for the lols. I wanted to gauge the strength of the soft guilty.

I'm no where near as confident as FL about it but I still lean towards DEB being town.

I'm like 90% confident. It's plausible I'm misreading the slip/tell I caught, but the lack of a night kill really seals the deal. Either the scumteam no-killed (entirely possible) or DEB was not a Doc Enabler. You don't have a save N1 if the Doctor is switched off.

Here’s how you know if I’m scum: if I look Towny, be suspicious.

Well you definitely do look townie in this game. Are you suggesting we should sr you for it?

~HQ

Let's dance.

Not sure how I look Townie-but-really-scummy by just coasting through the early game, I do that as often as I can. A notable exception was in Mini 2082 (Hall of Mirrors), but that's because I had really solid role information. I'm just going on reads here.

Pine, Chemist, Cheeky, chicks?

I could see this being a solve but only because deb was probably scum. Would be surprised to see 3 scum in that list even if that turns out to be wrong, since I'm still pretty sure Chickadee is town

Your math is bad and you should feel bad. You just effectively called out five scum. Not sure if this is a Town thing to do or a scum thing though.

[Pine]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Pine]

+DEB was probably scum
+I could see {Pine, Chemist, Cheeky, chicks} being a solve

Sooooo what am I misunderstanding about your numerical ineptitude?

[Pine]

This game is

10

:

3

.

[Pine]

@BuJ: Fuck if I know. I’m coasting hard rn

[Pine]

AA is 100% locktown

[Pine]

No one is 100% lock anything, that kind of language is utter lunacy.

no u

[Pine]

this game is really something isn't it

~ Poison Ivy

You know what else is “something”? Everything. Including raw sewage.

[Pine]

Between all current wagons, my lynch preference is
mastina > Pine > BStar ~= Leaf > Asylum

Yeaaaah, not sure I like this.

"I'll vote any of these wagons if you give me a pretext to!"

[Pine]

No, it isn’t. “I’ll lynch any of these five people” is not Towny. It’s opportunistic.

[Pine]

Flavor Leaf is really the only lynch I'm gung ho about right now. Most of my other scumreads have turned it around.

I'll focus on this game over the weekend/night phase.

[Pine]

BS and AA, can you consolidate on Mastina so i don’t get mislynched?

Scum is on my wagon, and chemist isn’t sole scum on my wagon.

These really rub me the wrong way.

[Pine]

I will compromise on Mastina. While I don't have a strong SR, she's a difficult read and it's better to be sure.

VOTE: Mastina

(<3)

[Pine]

Better to be sure that Mastina isn't slipping in under the radar. As bad as she is at reading me, I'm not much better.

I was trying (and failing) to reference this:

[Pine]

I don’t hate a JJH lynch, but a deadline crusade isn’t going to work

[Pine]

For all we know, something happened in ghosttown that stopped a kill

If that were possible, then Doc Enabler is even more unlikely

[Pine]

Like scum are clearly okay with mastina lynch going through or else it wouldn’t be going through.

It also explains the pacing of the lynch whilst still looking like it was gonna happen.

Wildly false premise.

For starters, it hasn’t gone through yet

For another, most of us, by definition, are still Town. Scum can slow a lynch by not participating in it, but they can’t stop it. By your alleged logic, no lynch would ever go through without scum approval, and that’s demonstrably preposterous

[Pine]

I'm not sure it's worth arguing with Boon

I’m not. I’m pushing the scumcase on him.

I’m compromising on Mastina at deadline, but he’s the lynch I want.

[Pine]

I’m conftown at this point. That’s just basic mafia.

[Pine]

What is CFD?

[Pine]

Honestly, be my guest. I'd love to be out of this clusterfuck.

Mastina or Boon are my only choices.

[Pine]

The context was JJH being bad at math, and giving a scum solution set of five people (those four plus DEB).

The only one of those four I'm inclined to look deeper at is Chemist, because I think that {DEB, Boon} is 2/3 of the scumteam. The third is probably in {Mastina, Chemist, JJH}, but I'm not prepared to case any of those three. I'm only open to Mastina as a deadline compromise.

[Pine]

Oh hell yeah

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

[Pine]

L-1

2 hours to go

We need a hero

[Pine]

Yay! Now FL gets to condescend to and insult the dead thread!

[Pine]

I’m treating DEB as confirmed scum and AA/Dann as confirmed town

I concur

[Pine]

In general, it’s a hard rule to not discount any cop guilty.

While there are additional liabilities to n this game due to lack of flip, I don’t see any reason to think scum would wildly risk a blatant false claim, especially with the likelihood that someone has a coroner-type role and could reveal the bluff

VOTE: Arkham

[Pine]

I am against massclaim. I don’t feel this is the right time.

[Pine]

I’m a VT. Massclaim is bad

[Pine]

Wait did you really think you were calling my bluff there?

Please. Even as scum I don’t post that without a plan. I have nothing to hide, but others do.

Fuck off.

Massclaim is bad.

[Pine]

Guilty

Is

Guilty

Is

Guilty

Your reflexive OMGUS is all the surety I require.

[Pine]

I am not retracting my vote. It may have been a questionable-motive guilty, but AA’s response is all scum.

Halt the massclaim.

[Pine]

I don't really get how anyone could not TR AA

I did, but then they did wildly scummy shit.

Scum can fake being Town for a while, but when a TR starts acting really scummy, you don't ignore it.

[Pine]

Mastina

I run a summer camp

We’re in season

I missed the clues that it was a fake guilty

However

AA’s response to getting pushed has been

Pure

Fucking

Scum

[Pine]

I did re-evaluate. The re-evaluation found the original reason to be bad, but the secondary reasons damning.

I’ve been clear about this, and I don’t appreciate you misrepping me so boldly

[Pine]

Wtf? When have I ever turned things into a personality conflict? Boon wasn’t about personality, it was about him not acting to his Town meta. I am making the rational observation that your behavior (or more likely your more volatile hydramates) responded with classic scum flailing when accused, attacking anyone and everything they could plausibly go after.

The initial accusation was bullshit. I was too distracted with camp to recognize that.

My observations are entirely independent of that.

Besides, I’m not making an argument to you; you’re scum. I’m making an argument to the rest of the players.

Even the “hey c’mon, you’re just confused town” thing you’re doing is classic scum recovery tactics. I am not one to be flattered with “you’re better than this” or threatened into submission. Your mates gave up it up when they flailed, and that’s not going to change.

[Pine]

1602 had nothing to do with my case on Boon, don’t even pretend that shit.

[Pine]

OK, and why are we supposed to believe that you are not trying to recover from being baited by boon's fake guilty? Right now how am I supposed to separate your play from scum that got caught in a reaction test and is now trying to downplay it?

-Kat

Consistency is the difference. Recovery would be blaming it all on the fake guilty and disavowing my position. I’m standing by it and giving original thought here.

1602 had nothing to do with my case on Boon, don’t even pretend that shit.

Sure, but how do you think Boon would respond to that when he enters the dead thread? My problem is that you put zero thought into how Boon would respond to being lynched as either alignment but took a claim from him at face value. That is jarringly at odds with your town play in other games, even when you are distracted.

-Kat

I don’t give a shit how he’d respond. I still think he may be scum.

I hate flipless. I want to know if I was right.

I’m done engaging with you tonight. It’s past 11 and Pinecone won’t sleep. Driving her around the countryside with her now.

[Pine]

Sorry, one more thing. I didn’t realize the claim was from Boon at first. Hurried reading. Later it didn’t matter because it looked like it was getting a scum reaction, and now it’s irrelevant because my reasons are my own.

PE: Get the fuck out of here with that shit. That post is from the previous game day, the fake guilty is from today. At least make your bullshit defensible.

[Pine]

I never AtE this bluntly. I have a screaming toddler, you can fuck right off.

[Pine]

—DONE—

[Pine]

Prodding jjh 927 and Pine.

Nnnngh fckoff jingle

At least I’m taking hard stances when I’m present, unlike the fence-sitting active lurkers

Fite me, bellboy

[Pine]

VOTE: Chemist

[Pine]

Pass

[Pine]

I feel like I'm missing something.


regardless, I'm waiting for Binary to come back and claim.

I think you are, yes.

[Pine]

VOTE: Chemist

VOTE: chemist

Check the time stamps and try again, jackass

[Pine]

I still have a TR on Binary Star from a D1 tell.

I’m not going to vote them.

I think this is scum Chemist

[Pine]

Is the tell a meta thing?

No. I know at some point we figured out who all the various hydra heads were but I forget

[Pine]

BS > JJH > Chemist maybe Pine if game ain't over

Would not be surprised if this entire list is town.
(VT btw. Setup has no investigative apparently :/)

Wait no

What

The thing I saw looked like a counter to the DEB claim - as in BS was >very< quietly softing a non-Doc protective. It’s the WHOLE REASON I turned face heel turned on DEB

VT claim blows this out of the water

[Pine]

Doctor Enabler is the stupidest terrorist claim I've ever heard.
Don't lynch me guys
I ENABLE THE DOCTOR
Yeah like you won't TRACK ME to any ACTUAL WORTHWHILE RESULTS
bUt I eNaBlE tHe DoCtOr!
Who has EVER, EVER, willingly DESIGNED a game in which there was a DOCTOR ENABLER
And what kind of SADIST would design a NO FLIP GAME with a DOCTOR that needs an ENABLER in it?
Ya'll aren't thinking this through at all.
VOTE: Dr Easy Bake

-White

And what kind of SADIST

Let me stop you right there.
No but really I don't buy the claim either.

-B

Doctor Enabler has plausible deniability and still potentially outs a doctor while also potentially drawing doc shots.
Whereas something like COP ENABLER would be a really shitty scum fakeclaim.
So really
It's bad.

-White

This stuff right here

[Pine]

BS came out *hard* for DEB after the Doc Enabler claim. Combined with the wording of posts, I took that to mean they were Bodyguard or Babysitter or some other non-Doc protective. I took note, followed suit, and shut the fuck up to not draw attention.

But now VT?

Nope.

Intent to hammer.

[Pine]

TMI bus attempt.

I don’t do that.

[Pine]

Oh.

Yeah that sounds right.

[Pine]

You just “admitted” to an unforced error. Not buying the “vindicated post game” AtE

VOTE: Binary Star

[Pine]

Damn it birb

I never get to hammer

PE: Whoa there. Regardless of outcome here, we’re playing a game. It’s not personal - whether I caught your partner in a lie or an ill-advised gambit, it’s enough to revoke the unearned Townread with prejudice. That’s the nature of the game. Deal.

[Pine]

Ostentatious ridiculously obvtown at this point

[Pine]

VOTE: Chemist

Scum meta

[Pine]

Setup spec hot take: Dead thread can’t kill if scum outnumber Town in it

PE: Yeah...I don’t like AA’s confidence that there’s only one scum left in a flipless game. I tend to agree, but I’m hardly certain. Between this and their awful response to the fake guilty D3, I’d lynch the shit out of them too

[Pine]

Actually, 2031 feels like a hardcore scumslip. Town should never have that degree of confidence here

VOTE: AA

[Pine]

Have you played with Nancy previously? Her confidence and the way she is projecting are town indicative.

That would be interesting. I had thought the opposite. (it is a risky additional scum kill if they get off to a rocky start).

I haven’t played with her much previously, but simple overconfidence doesn’t explain it

[Pine]

I am focused. Chemist is scummy, but AA as a whole reacted badly to the push against them, and they continue to take opportunistic/predatory positions, plus what I see in 2031

I think this may be the answer

PE: Your “Nancy is overconfident” angle just expired, btw. Ank’s too good to have irrational overconfidence, but is entirely susceptible to an information slip

PE2: Cite the Doc inno?

[Pine]

okay

I'm the doctor, as far as I know my action went through last night

I targeted AA, and I assume that's why there were no kills

thus, a soft innocent on AA and a soft guilty on DEB

another explanation is that scum no killed specifically to draw these kinds of assumptions but that seems highly unlikely

Okay, I missed this entirely. It's really irritating that no one brought it up (at all afaik) around the fake guilty, as it appears to completely exonerate AA.

With the venge kill mechanic it's likely better to lynch in 4p.
Today, we lynch chemist. Tonight, ghosts kill Cheeky.
Tomorrow, lynch Pine. If the game continues, ghosts kill AA.

Unless we are being stomped by Mastina or Chickadee (or scum wincon is highly irregular), town wins.

Would prefer to kill generally-highest scum equity slots today. Risk of 2x scum alive which shouldn't be ignored.

I'm good with that solve.

~ Poison Ivy

I think I am too.

VOTE: Chemist

[Pine]

Because you just let venge kill go to jjh so cheeky I think is more likely to actually keep it on chemist.

Anyway @pine I feel like it was mentioned several times? On multiple days? I'm kinds at a loss as to how you missed all of the posts that mention it...

-kat

...I may have skimmed a bit more than usual.

TBH this game has struggled to keep my interest. It seems like an interesting setup, but I didn't count on how frustrating the flipless mechanic was going to be.

[Pine]

Why are we rushing this?

“Rushing things”, esp after D1, is a new notion in the last couple of years that I’m not a fan of. Forcibly slowing down the game just gives people time to second-guess themselves and get talked around by scum. Time was, you could do a large theme in a month or so, and individual days might be measured in a few pages. Lots of great old games were 20-40 pages long, most of it D1.

If you’ve got something to say, say it. If you’re ready to go, don’t hesitate. Pull the trigger.

[Pine]

+Chemist is scummy
+Cheeky I’m ambivalent about

End of list

[Pine]

I have information softconfirming that DEB was scum.

I will not be elaborating.

So let’s move off of the “if DEB was scum” angle.

I'm confused rereading this, didn't Pine claim VT?

I explained this. I picked up on what I thought was a soft protective claim from Binary Star, then there was no N1 kill despite alleged Doc Enabler death. It seemed obvious to me that a N1 no kill meant that Binary Star protective was active, disproving the DEB claim.

It’s not a gambit per se, but it is overstating things.

uhh so I was kinda like "hey I'm gonna let Pine think he has a shot" in the dead thread because for a moment i forgot the last scum can probably still talk to DEB and jjh

so that was kinda dumb

@Pine, you do look the worst here. would you mind letting me know when you're around? I need your 2p PoE now we have the flips.

I’ll be off and on around all day. Catching up.

[Pine]

Nah, not Chickadee.

I honestly don’t have anything other than PoE against cheeky. I’ve been unfocused and disinterested in this game, which just isn’t my scumgame. So there’s that.

[Pine]

For what it's worth, I very unironically think it's just Cheeky but I have to appease my constituents and they want you.

Are you happy with lynching you, vigging Cheeky?

Sure, but I don’t really have confidence that the vig will happen as planned. There’s been some...inconsistency there

[Pine]

VOTE: Cheeky

[Pine]

Technically it does eliminate the possibility that we’re in a 3:2 LYLO with AA and Duckie as scum.

But that was such an edge scenario it really didn’t need to be said.

[Pine]

It’s a damn shame. Engaged!mastina is great at endgame.

[Pine]

What reaction did you want, Duckie? It doesn’t help much. The only relevant info is that DEB is scum, which we knew, and JJH is scum rather than one of the others. JJH doesn’t really have much in the way of associatives going on, so it has little impact beyond confirming that we’re in 4:1

[Pine]

If there were roles attached, then we’d have something to work with.

[Pine]

Pretty sure you are, Duck friend

I’ll be super honest, though, I have this nagging microsuspicion that you’re faking the entire dead thread thing

[Pine]

I did forget you’re stumped

As far as I’m concerned, this IS solved. You’re Town (and stumped). AA is Town. I’m Town, though I understand suspicions to the contrary.

That leaves Cheeky and Chickadee. Of the two, Cheeky is far more likely scum than birb. Bob’s your uncle.

[Pine]

We did not “ran through” the Chemist lynch. Chemist was legit scummy.

My vote on him was based on nearly-identical behavior in Mini 2084: Pokemon Ruby, which just ended and I can finally talk about.

Getting Chemist lynched get like pulling teeth most of the time.

I have no idea what the antipathy towards “rushing things” is. That’s a recent phenomenon in the last year or two. When you’re in endgame with no real surprises, vote your best reads and see who wins.

From my POV, it has to be Cheeky or Chicka. Period.

My decision’s made.

[Pine]

it's relevant to note that from your PoV the game is very simple, but from ours and the duck's, it's not as simple

~ Poison Ivy

*shrug*

Just speaking my truth

[Pine]

And...?

[Pine]

Oh fuck this

[Pine]

Ha

Eat it

I told you to ignore the WIFOM