Mini 2084: Pokemon Ruby Mafia - Game Over

[Klick]

VOTE: Detective Pikachu

If you're just going to talk in 'Pika-pika!'s all day, we have no choice but to policy lynch you.

[Klick]

Oh wow I should change my avatar, it's far too similar to Pink Ball's

[Klick]

There, that works!

[Klick]

The TCG is where it's at. The Fossil expansion was legit

[Klick]

Here's one advice: we gotta start acting early if we want to have a shot of winning as town here.

Town that take too long to react tend to lose.

[citation needed]

Seriously, this has probably been said in every game I've popped my head into in the past five years, and I've seen no evidence that there's credit to it. We're here to have fun! It's been less than a day, there's nothing to be worried about just yet.

Though my vote on Detective Pikachu was semi-serious, and I'll give a cookie to the first person who can tell me why.

[Klick]

Incidental off-site evidence ???

Like, I agree with your basic point that we need activity fairly early on if we want stuff to get reads on later. But it's Page Three and it's been under 24 hours. I'm pretty content with the activity we've had considering that.

[Klick]

Can you see why I might have gotten an early scumread on DP based on their posting thus far?

[Klick]

Sorry: I have a light scumread on Detective Pikachu. Can you spot why?

[Klick]

Hello, partner!

VOTE: Klick

I like the memes of this list but I am also sad because I wanted to play with Dr Worm

I know it was RVS, but can you talk to me about why you decided to vote me here, Pikachu? Because your post doesn't have a reason, silly or otherwise.

[Klick]

Alright Creature, I'm starting to see your point.

Yo Chemist, there's been a fair amount of game discussion already. Any reads/thoughts?

[Klick]

Hello, partner!

VOTE: Klick

I like the memes of this list but I am also sad because I wanted to play with Dr Worm

I know it was RVS, but can you talk to me about why you decided to vote me here, Pikachu? Because your post doesn't have a reason, silly or otherwise.

This is why I have a scumread on Pikachu.

[Klick]

I'd rather get any response from Pikachu before laying all my cards on the table!

[Klick]

I voted you because a wagon with three votes is more interesting than a wagon with two votes.

Then why not say this at the time? I found your vote odd because there was zero explanation behind it. It seemed like it was placed with the intent of drawing no attention, as opposed to starting discussion.

[Klick]

No worries

Pikachu's my best lead atm. His response to my pressure hasn't been a good look.

[Klick]

Your pressure being you spamming the thread

Spamming? If anyone else feels like I'm posting too much, please let me know and I'll let other people have their say. But I don't think my activity has been unreasonable by any means.

asking someone on v/la why they voted you in rvs?

Your first post saying you're on V/LA is Post 93. I've made two posts since then (three if you count this one). And I'm not sure how you being V/LA even got brought into this conversation - it has nothing to do with your alignment.

That's not pressure that's fluffposting.

no u

You've basically been exclusively asking me one pointless question that has an obvious answer.

Post 94 is a very different question to the one I initially asked. And you still haven't responded to it. Unless you count quoting my ISO and voting me as a response?

[Klick]

Yeah, that's accurate. I started the Pikachu pressure mostly to try and engage discussion - there's very little to actually work with when it comes to RVS. His response to the pressure has been to aggressively push back/discredit, and that has me more comfy with my vote.

I don't care much about Tim's early vote on me though, his was fine.

[Klick]

Mhm. Not sure what the point of 95 is, and 101 is all over the place.

[Klick]

I agree with urap - I'm not convinced your efforts at moving the game forward are genuine. The posts you've quoted there as discussion-starters... really aren't. And you're not providing meaningful commentary on the parts of the game that

have

been worth discussing.

[Klick]

^^^

RP, if you already thought Pikachu and I was TvT, why not mention that before now? That's worth mentioning, that could start a discussion.
Why do you think that, anyway?

You're spending an awful lot of time doing things that you now say should have zero bearing on your alignment. And they're not engaging discussion - this is evident in the fact that no one engaged with them. So what are you actually doing?

[Klick]

I voted you because a wagon with three votes is more interesting than a wagon with two votes.

Then why not say this at the time? I found your vote odd because there was zero explanation behind it. It seemed like it was placed with the intent of drawing no attention, as opposed to starting discussion.

I'd rather get any response from Pikachu before laying all my cards on the table!

Why is it okay for you to hold your cards but not him?

Order of operations. I asked Pikachu a question in Post 74, and before he answered it I got a few questions about my question. I wanted the question answered before I went into great detail about why I asked it. That seems like a good reason to temporarily withhold reasoning.
Meanwhile, does Pikachu have a reason to not bring up his reasoning? That's what I want to find out. My proposed explanation is that he's scum who wanted to avoid drawing attention to himself.

Fair enough, RP. But sometime soon I'd love to revisit this.

[Klick]

Choo choo

[Klick]

Alright Creature, I'm starting to see your point.

Glad you're doing.

What should we do now?

I mean we seem to be on the same page with Pikachu, I'm happy with 'wagon him' as a decent plan from here?

PEdit: Post 94 is my post. Click on the link in the quote you posted.

[Klick]

dang

i feel like both CC and EP are pretty hard town after that last interaction

like i guess CC might just be playing super well but i think i'm pretty happy clearing them both.

It was nice reading their interaction and then reading my thoughts on their interaction!

[Klick]

I'm happy calling EP/CC/Chemist town. Creature I'm less confident on but I'd still call it a town lean. Of the more prolific posters in the last couple of pages, LUV isn't giving me particularly good vibes.

Can you share why/how you got to your scumread of me? As it stands, it looks like it's either a bandwagon read or an OMGUS.

Honestly? You're right. Sorry. I signed up for too many games and I've always been more miserable in games outside of Newbie queue. I hate being in the dark about reads. Your posting has actually been p towny and I OMGUS'd out of annoyance.

Thanks for the honesty. If you find the time over the next few days, can you drop a quick post on people who feel the most scummy? We can @ you with specifics from there.

UNVOTE:

Got my sights set on URAP and Cinnamon now. Hoping to see more content from them tomorrow.

I'm not really sure what more content you want to see right now. It's kind of weird that you say that when I've posted my reads and you haven't interacted with them at all.

I like this post, feels genuine

Talk to me about this? I had the opposite reaction.

[Klick]

@Clarity and @Cinnamon: you were both a pleasure to play with in the short time you were here

[Klick]

I'm not familiar with his particular Mafia meta - my read was based on this game. The only other time I've interacted with Chemist was in an LSG (and in that giant not-really-Mafia game). Any games in particular that support the fact that he hasn't acted differently than he does as scum?

[Klick]

Tim, you should vote Pikachu!

[Klick]

Hiiii

[Klick]

I would prefer not to wind up getting policy copped N1 and having someone claim what they want to see as a guilty with a no result on me.
I think the risk of that happening is greater than the advantage gained by baiting and wasting a single nightkill in a game that starts at odds.

Why would you get policy copped?

[Klick]

u r a person 2

Detective Pikachu

Cinnamon

Uzi

Creature

EspressoPatronum

Chemist1423

Pink Ball

Klick

ceejayvinoya
ClearlyClarity

Tim Goodman

On the subject of RP, I found this post in particular to be less of a game-solving list and more of a 'I crossed off everyone who made an impression on me'. The people left on his list were the players that had posted least, with URAP replaced by EP.

[Klick]

PB I'm interested in your townread on Tim! Could you explain it for me?

[Klick]

@Clarity and @Cinnamon: you were both a pleasure to play with in the short time you were here

This serves no purpose other than to look town.

???

[Klick]

You read that right. There’s no way to know whether both players are choosing to follow the game after replacing out and there really isn’t no good reason as to why that statement could’ve been made after the game. It comes off as overly polite and nice to me in an attempt to imitate how town should act.

[Klick]

Was it supposed to?

I posit that Clarity and Cinnamon are more likely to read the thread shortly after their replace-out than months afterwards.
I also posit that politeness and niceness are NAI. Your logic seems to be that I was doing it to look town, but those qualities have nothing to do with being town and everyone in this game should know that.

[Klick]

Fwiw I agree that Clarity's replace-out seemed more frustration-based. Cinnamon's seemed more about factors unrelated to the game.

[Klick]

I would prefer not to wind up getting policy copped N1 and having someone claim what they want to see as a guilty with a no result on me.
I think the risk of that happening is greater than the advantage gained by baiting and wasting a single nightkill in a game that starts at odds.

Why would you get policy copped?

People are usually paranoid of scum!RC

But when he said this, he hadn't alt-slipped. So it was Tim Goodman worried he'd get policy-copped. That's what I'm confused by.

[Klick]

In context, that post was about Tim's claim, which he made in Post 65:

I live outside of Ryme City and I commute on odd nights and possibly even nights as well, please don't target me with night actions!

[Klick]

^^^

RP, if you already thought Pikachu and I was TvT, why not mention that before now? That's worth mentioning, that could start a discussion.
Why do you think that, anyway?

You're spending an awful lot of time doing things that you now say should have zero bearing on your alignment. And they're not engaging discussion - this is evident in the fact that no one engaged with them. So what are you actually doing?

Do I really need to mention it? I'd rather not butt in and focus on other players while still monitoring your slots and my read on the both of you is before you both engaged each other and I'd rather not reveal why.

It's getting late in the day, RP - could you explain this?

[Klick]

Yes, but he claimed on Post 65. So that couldn't have been his thought process at the time of claiming.

[Klick]

This is the third time my questioning has been shut down by "I'd rather not say [yet]". At this point I'm going to assume at least one is scum who didn't have an answer for me at the time.

[Klick]

I feel like this is a game where town's general PoE is going to be really good but it's possible that we end up leading on the town in the lynchpool.

Reeeeally not getting good vibes from this post.

[Klick]

Well damn, that's a reasonably Townish post.

Why?

[Klick]

Everyone should read DP's ISO for the last five days (since the day after his V/LA ended) and then vote for DP.

[Klick]

Gamma is unlikely to get lynched today for very similar reasons to why you said it's a bad idea to lynch the potential scum in your town pool. Gamma's contributed a strong amount so far, and if he's town and gets lynched today we'd lose an important voice.

[Klick]

Gamma Emerald Cinnamon
RedPanda
EspressoPatronum
Chemist1422
Klick
Tim Goodman



Menalque u r a person 2
Firebringer Lil Uzi Vert, Dr worm
Detective Pikachu
Creature
Pink Ball
ofrhz ceejayvinoya
Pine ClearlyClarity

Swap RP with Pine and this is basically where I'm at.

[Klick]

I'm writing you off for today - I think you could fairly easily be scum here but there's more to gain from you being alive than not regardless of your alignment. And even if I wanted to consider you today, a lynch wouldn't go through on you.

Plus you keep making posts that are like semi-adjacent to where my head is at and normally I'd consider that a towntell. But I don't know that it means much in this particular circumstance.

Basically I don't feel confident reading you and I'm not bothered to find out today.

[Klick]

Gamma Emerald Cinnamon
RedPanda
EspressoPatronum
Chemist1422
Klick
Tim Goodman



Menalque u r a person 2
Firebringer Lil Uzi Vert, Dr worm
Detective Pikachu
Creature
Pink Ball
ofrhz ceejayvinoya
Pine ClearlyClarity

Swap RP with Pine and this is basically where I'm at.

So two scum slots suddenly replaced out? Did they have a fight in their scum PT?

That would assume specifically two scum in [Menalque, Firebringer, ofrhz], which isn't quite where I'm at.

As a more general point though, I don't think it's too much of a coincidence for two scum to have replaced out here for their own independent reasons.

[Klick]

Everyone should read DP's ISO for the last five days (since the day after his V/LA ended) and then vote for DP.

Seriously, everyone should do this. I'm rarely confident in early reads but I'm like 80% sure this is scum and that's huge for this stage in the game.

We have three days and little consensus - we need to consolidate somewhere. No one vocal seems to have a good reason to townread Pikachu, yet this wagon never actually picked up off the ground. We need to get a proper wagon going and I have a great deal of confidence in this lead.

[Klick]

What do you think of me Other Kirby?

[Klick]

Pink Ball is now 100% conf-town!!

[Klick]

umm i wasn't telling u how to vote. just telling u shouldn't be making associations between players this early as it often leads to blunders down the road. if u read me scum independently of anything anyone else has done then ur good. Just that ur associations between me and others could be corrupting potentially solid reads for really bad logic/reasoning that ruins u later.

Fwiw I've never bought into this argument and still don't see a valid reason to avoid association-based reads early on. But maybe I'm just bad.

[Klick]

fire has the same scum strategy in all his scum games, pretend to be nonchalant about being wagoned until people get second thoughts about it.

I wouldn't be surprised if this was his town strategy as well though, that's the problem I'm having with buying into FB-scum.

[Klick]

RP what are you doing.

[Klick]

Right, okay, reads list. Top is most town.

EspressoPatronum
Chemist
Gamma
Pine
Tim
Pink Ball
Creature
Menalque
RedPanda
ofrhz
Pikachu

[Klick]

Hard agree that his read on you was BS. Not confident that it makes him scum.

[Klick]

I don't think Tim being scum is impossible by any means - he's done enough to make me question - but right now I think he's best placed in the town pile.

[Klick]

fire has the same scum strategy in all his scum games, pretend to be nonchalant about being wagoned until people get second thoughts about it.

I wouldn't be surprised if this was his town strategy as well though, that's the problem I'm having with buying into FB-scum.

do you not find a selfvote with less than 2 days left and the other wagon with only 2 votes to be a wifomy gambit?

Of course it is. But that's not scum-indicative in this situation, and certainly not enough to justify a quickhammer.

[Klick]

Apologies for wasting time yesterday, Pikachu. My gut pinged at every other post of yours and I couldn't back down.

I need to reevaluate.

[Klick]

VOTE: Creature

You've used a lot of words and posts to say absolutely nothing on this page.

[Klick]

I'm... middling on Pink Ball? Vaguely leaning town, because I get the sense he's using his lack of doing things as his primary means of getting reads and I can see the theory behind it from a Pink!town perspective. But as a result, he hasn't done much that makes me think he couldn't be scum.

[Klick]

Someone please unvote before we get a repeat of yesterday.
Ive seen zero actual compelling reasons to scumread Gamma so far.

Regardless of your opinion on Gamma, today really shouldn't end yet

[Klick]

and that felt like TMI on my slot, as if you KNEW I'm town

I'm strongly townreading you.

I was about to ask what read you had on Pink Ball, thank you very much.

UNVOTE:

[Klick]

I'm pretty happy with the last page of interaction.

[Klick]

Creature, sell me on Menalque. I've really liked his content early today but yesterday he looked scummy to me.

[Klick]

I'm pretty happy with the last page of interaction.

Klick

Why should I keep townreading you?

Probably for the same reason you began townreading me in the first place?
My posts/read progression are coming from a town mindset. I believe the things I'm saying and that should be clear to see.

[Klick]

I'm multitasking, playing Smash Ultimate and posting between games. I'll take a break for a bit

But yes, I do. I think that's one of the only reliable ways of telling town apart from scum - town is actually thinking about who is what alignment. Most other things that are typically read into in Mafia are NAI imo.

[Klick]

Ofrhz and Menalque are pretty much scum.

Who do you want lynched first?

Tell me why. Because I can see it, but not with any real confidence.

[Klick]

Way better in what way? Menalque has already given a larger-than-average amount of content. Do you mean the accuracy of his reads? Because that's still up for debate.

[Klick]

Nothing in ofrhz's posts so far has given me any indication that he's town. I don't have a scumread per say but he has a higher than average chance of flipping scum.

[Klick]

(am I town yet? Tim where are you )

This post and the posts on this page put me off. He's being too performative (blatantly so in fact).

[Klick]

Chemist is town.

[Klick]

Activity tell? I'm unfamiliar.

[Klick]

What happened to using RC's reads as a Bible? Chemist was in his townlist.

[Klick]

I need to reevaluate.

Where did you?

I need to generally, because I think my reads are shit. I haven't made much progress on that because today's been particularly busy.

Also, I'm not prescribing to artificially decreasing the deadline.

[Klick]

Gamma Emerald Cinnamon
RedPanda
EspressoPatronum
Chemist1422
Klick
Tim Goodman



Menalque u r a person 2
Firebringer Lil Uzi Vert, Dr worm
Detective Pikachu
Creature
Pink Ball
ofrhz ceejayvinoya
Pine ClearlyClarity

Ugh, can't tell how Chemist went from 4th scum candidate to second strongest townread.

I didn't get the sense that this was ordered (I guarantee you I wasn't his strongest townread for example). If it was, I suspect it was ordered the other way round and he tacked his name to the end of it.

[Klick]

I more of need someone to take some initiative too.

Then stop spamming the thread, please! Seeing pages upon pages of 80% Totodile really kills my motivation to engage.

[Klick]

Mafia has turned into a activity oligarchy since then.

This is going to lead to a predictable D2 after an obvious conclusion to D1.

Firebringer is the type of player that would typically get himself mislynched early on as town - plenty of people should have seen that coming. He didn't do anything scum-indicative - he just did a bunch of Firebringer-indicative things and people took the bait. And now we're seeing a setup for a D2 Chemist lynch using what seem to be mostly tells based on how he would play the game as either alignment.

Serious question to everyone voting Chemist right now: do you actually, earnestly think he's doing anything differently to what he'd be doing as town in this game? Because this wagon looks extremely lazy to me. I disagree with the Gamma wagon but at least it looks genuine.

A few people's reads lists seem to be skewed with low-content posters at the bottom and high-content posters at the top. That's a bias that should be fixed.


In an hour or so I'll grab my laptop and look at this a bit. I'll start with Chemist - I remember getting strong town vibes from him earlier but I'll give it a detailed look.

PEdit: atm I don't know that I would love any of those lynches. The scummiest of the three to me is RP, but that's still not very scummy. I'll answer that again when I've had a better look at things.

[Klick]

The general thing giving me a townread on Chemist is his consistent level of engagement with the game. That's a complicated concept to extract out of my head, but I believe there's credit to it even if it's a bit out there.
The first post he made that gave me a townread on him was this:

Can you share why/how you got to your scumread of me? As it stands, it looks like it's either a bandwagon read or an OMGUS.

Honestly? You're right. Sorry. I signed up for too many games and I've always been more miserable in games outside of Newbie queue. I hate being in the dark about reads. Your posting has actually been p towny and I OMGUS'd out of annoyance.

Thanks for the honesty. If you find the time over the next few days, can you drop a quick post on people who feel the most scummy? We can @ you with specifics from there.

UNVOTE:

Got my sights set on URAP and Cinnamon now. Hoping to see more content from them tomorrow.

I'm not really sure what more content you want to see right now. It's kind of weird that you say that when I've posted my reads and you haven't interacted with them at all.

I like this post, feels genuine

I don't think he bothers making this post as scum. There's no motivation. Also, a quick read of Chemist's (mostly town) meta shows a pattern of making random comments on things whenever they ping him as opposed to consistent activity in a way that suits this post. His follow-up right after when I asked him about this post showed there was an actual thought process behind why he made the post.

Hi I’m here

I read into ofrhz and urap and I think ofrhz is worse, their reaction to pressure felt kinda off like they didn’t really care but were acting like they did. Urap is a solid null for me rn due to lack of content.

VOTE: ofrhz

I don't think these are fake reads. And his follow-up to prodding about them again shows town thought. I think scum at Chemist's level (and this is an assumption - I don't have a wealth of knowledge of Chemist's scum experience) have a tendency to make their thoughts look more concrete, while town can have weaker reads with a general theme like this:

So me asking "Why?" has nothing to do with how Tim perceives my posting?

I think you put more focus on the RP read as opposed to a basic explanation, if that makes any sense

Basically his entire interaction with ofrhz the night of June 29th looked like genuine town thought. His thought process reminds me of my own play. And I don't think he's faking it to look town - there are much more effective ways for scum!Chemist to look town to a wide audience.

And from last night:

Creature how confident are you that you can solve this game

This is lazy town focused on too many other things and having this game as low-priority.

Rereading has strengthened my Chemist townread - not happy with this wagon at all.

[Klick]

Can you share why/how you got to your scumread of me? As it stands, it looks like it's either a bandwagon read or an OMGUS.

Honestly? You're right. Sorry. I signed up for too many games and I've always been more miserable in games outside of Newbie queue. I hate being in the dark about reads. Your posting has actually been p towny and I OMGUS'd out of annoyance.

Thanks for the honesty. If you find the time over the next few days, can you drop a quick post on people who feel the most scummy? We can @ you with specifics from there.

UNVOTE:

Got my sights set on URAP and Cinnamon now. Hoping to see more content from them tomorrow.

I'm not really sure what more content you want to see right now. It's kind of weird that you say that when I've posted my reads and you haven't interacted with them at all.

When this post was first made I liked it, but I've mellowed - especially considering his initial reads were 'I like creature and Tim rn.' and sheeping Chemist's problems with EP's early posts. That's not giving much to work with, and it reads as less genuine and more 'the reason you've caught me is bad'. I don't know if it's scum-indicative though.

What I meant by that is that by pressuring me without adding any additional info you can make it look like you're trying to gamesolve without actually gamesolving.

The thing is this is the main problem I have with Cinnamon's own posts, but it doesn't seem to be a conscious decision on his part.

I'm going to write Cinnamon himself off as null and read this slot based on Gamma.

[Klick]

...50 posts into Gamma's ISO and I'm not getting anything pinging one way or another. And I feel like this should worry me.
As a general note I appreciate what Gamma did creating content when he replaced in. But I think it has zero bearing on his alignment.
Either I'm setting my expectations of Gamma!scum too high, or he's not giving me any town vibes because he's scum. I should meta him soon.

PEdit: I thought you were scummier than Menalque and Gamma, who I had townreads on at the time. And I read your points about Chemist, but they weren't explained in much detail/in a way that I could relate to. We seem to be making different points about why Chemist is town.
Tell me this, RP - what is the difference between your town game and your scum game? You would know better than anyone else.

[Klick]

It's like people don't understand that replacements catchup posts should not be over analyzed as scum or town. They have an advantage of no interactions and they can pick and choose what to talk about and be somewhat honest about old posts.

I both agree with this and think there was merit to pushing a narrative that Gamma was towny to encourage that level of contribution from others yesterday. Regardless of actual alignment I think Gamma's early posts were pro-town.
But now that I'm finished reading into Gamma's ISO I'm left feeling almost entirely null about him, which surprises me.

[Klick]

I don't know. I'm playing after 6 years so I can't tell if it will be the same, but 6 years ago I would say there's no difference.

That's why you were the scummiest of the three options presented. You're doing nothing differently from what you would do as scum, and I had a feeling that was the case. So why do you expect a townread from me?

[Klick]

Creature
Detective Pikachu
Pine
Klick
Pink Ball

That's 5/6 town already

Creature
Detective Pikachu
Pink Bal
Klick (trusting Arcy)
Chemist1422
0.5 Pine

5.5/6 town

My reads are heavily aligning with this atm.
Talk to me about Pine/CC?

[Klick]

Can you share why/how you got to your scumread of me? As it stands, it looks like it's either a bandwagon read or an OMGUS.

Honestly? You're right. Sorry. I signed up for too many games and I've always been more miserable in games outside of Newbie queue. I hate being in the dark about reads. Your posting has actually been p towny and I OMGUS'd out of annoyance.

This is the post I keep coming back to that makes me think this slot is town. I wholeheartedly believe this post is genuine.

[Klick]

I want to either lynch between Menalque/Gamma today or settle on ofrhz.

[Klick]

I'll reword it, how confident are you that you could win the game if you had control of every lynch?

Would say about decent chance. Can't guarantee I won't go wrong sometimes though.

Okay I’m willing to call creature town here

I think if he was scum he’d either say 100% or something that doesn’t match the level of confidence he seems to have

I disagree with that reasoning but don't have much of a problem with the conclusion.

[Klick]

Someone please unvote before we get a repeat of yesterday.
Ive seen zero actual compelling reasons to scumread Gamma so far.

Regardless of your opinion on Gamma, today really shouldn't end yet

Creature, sell me on Menalque. I've really liked his content early today but yesterday he looked scummy to me.

What did you think of menalque’s cases? Either on cinn or gamma

Menalque is laser-focused and has been since he replaced in. He seems to have started with the conclusion and found reasoning afterwards. His case isn't particularly convincing to me. Doesn't mean he's wrong/scum, but I'm not swayed.

[Klick]

It's like people don't understand that replacements catchup posts should not be over analyzed as scum or town. They have an advantage of no interactions and they can pick and choose what to talk about and be somewhat honest about old posts.

I both agree with this and think there was merit to pushing a narrative that Gamma was towny to encourage that level of contribution from others yesterday. Regardless of actual alignment I think Gamma's early posts were pro-town.
But now that I'm finished reading into Gamma's ISO I'm left feeling almost entirely null about him, which surprises me.

Okay no this looks like scum trying to find an excuse to walk back their town read on me
VOTE: Klick

Why did you just walk back your townread on me?

[Klick]

I don’t think menalque is just making up meta. A couple of cinnamons posts do seem like busywork. Cinnamon asking Tim for his townreads is a pretty general/vague question whereas cinn seems to only have asked questions about a specific player in his completed town games.

As in, I don’t see why you think “he started with a conclusion and found reasoning afterwards” in his cinn case. Can you explain that klick?

I don't think Menalque's reasoning is entirely fabricated, but I think the many things he quoted in evidence against CinnaGamma aren't the reasons he's pushing the slot. He replaced in and immediately scumread Cinnamon, and I doubt he had all those reasons in mind when he started scumreading him. Basically he seems to have confirmation bias, except he shouldn't have confirmation by any means.

[Klick]

There's not much I can say to that other than that's actually where my mind has been irt you. It's a thought process backed up by this post:

Gamma is unlikely to get lynched today for very similar reasons to why you said it's a bad idea to lynch the potential scum in your town pool. Gamma's contributed a strong amount so far, and if he's town and gets lynched today we'd lose an important voice.

[Klick]

I for one would love to see what you have right now, even if you disagree with it in hindsight.

[Klick]

VOTE: EspressoPatronum
Honestly everyone not Menalque that's voting me could be scum but I don't think scum just fucking dogpile their votes, I understand I argued otherwise before but that was from a VCA standpoint, here I just think stacking reduces ability to control the game.

So from that I feel like EP and Chemist have greater partner equity from a quick look around out of any pair I'd consider between (RP, Chemist, EP).

Chemist is also okay but EP's vote broadcasts the exact behavior I'm anticipating from scum here.

I'm confused - what does this mean?

[Klick]

Very happy with what I see from Pine's overnight post. Pine isn't on the scumteam that killed Tim last night.

[Klick]

I'm stuck in a situation where I see good reasons for everyone to be town.

[Klick]

Gamma who are you most confident in being town atm?
Could you explain how you decided Menalque is town?

[Klick]

Gamma who are you most confident in being town atm?
Could you explain how you decided Menalque is town?

'who' being multiple people if applicable - not just asking about your strongest townread, in case that was unclear

[Klick]

I'm curious about Gamma's reasoning and thought process though.

[Klick]

I think if you're town Gamma that we're on a pretty similar wavelength and could help each other solve this.

We agree on Pine. Other than Pikachu, the other person I most confidently read as town is Chemist. I can see your reasoning on Menalque and have been getting TvT vibes for a little bit.

Have you looked in any more detail about EP other than the thing that most recently pinged you? You seem to be mainly getting your reads based on behavior surrounding your wagon, but outside of that EP has seemed generally town to me all game. I struggle to see his approach to the game coming from scum - he doesn't seem to have much of an agenda in anything he does.

[Klick]

Very happy with what I see from Pine's overnight post. Pine isn't on the scumteam that killed Tim last night.

RP what do you think of this?

[Klick]

I can see how you might think the Gamma case was him conf-biasing, but what about his case on Cinnamon? I'm basically interested in your evaluation of his cases separately

So the crux of Menalque's case on Cinnamon on the 6th seems to focus on the fact that Cinnamon's behavior this game doesn't match with what he's seen of town!Cinnamon before. Specifically, most of Menalque's points seem to address the fact that Cinnamon has less rigor in his gameplay/seems lazier than he normally does as town.

I think most of this is NAI. Cinnamon was pretty obviously going through something IRL while playing this game based on his last few posts. That would sufficiently explain a change in behavior from active to passive and address almost everything in Menalque's case on him.

[Klick]

why tf is Pine doing a catchup without reading the flip first? who does that?

why would you ask someone to catchup without reading the flips...?

He says he wrote it last night. So it was less 'catchup without reading the flips' and more 'post the thoughts you have, even though they're not current'.

[Klick]

I don't think I'm happy with a Gamma lynch anymore today.

[Klick]

VOTE: ofrhz

His posts today have felt particularly 'empty'.

[Klick]

Can you quote what exactly you mean by 'shut down'? Because I'm not seeing it.

[Klick]

RP, I think that's a valid criticism of your push on Gamma. You're tunneling and I don't think you'll ever read him as not-scum. And I wasn't persuaded by your initial reasoning against him.

[Klick]

I read the post in question as Gamma being demotivated because he felt he was feeling ignored.

[Klick]

I read the post in question as Gamma being demotivated because he felt he was feeling ignored.

I'm playing after 6 years so I don't know what happened to the site. But I don't know ever remember strong players shutting down even if they were being ignored. I was confident before and now I'm not so I'm willing to follow your lead if you have the guts to take responsibility after the game ends. I just need to know If you're confident gamma is town.

Not every player is the same. This is definitely within the confines of reasonable town behavior and it doesn't seem out-of-line with Gamma's personality at all.

I'm still sorting through my own reads, but I'm confident enough in Gamma-town to be uncomfortable with his lynch today.

[Klick]

I'll save you some time, RP - I don't play often at all, especially not lately. This is my first serious Mafia game in a long time and I feel as though I have a completely different approach to the game than I did ages ago. And I've never been considered a particularly good player. If you're looking to sheep me due to some sort of prestige that's not what you're going to find.

But I'm town, and I feel pretty good about Gamma-town based on the last few pages. Take it or leave it.

[Klick]

EP are you here?

[Klick]

Fair.

[Klick]

What, specifically, did you like about Menalque's case on Gamma?

[Klick]

In other words, why do you currently think Gamma is scum?

[Klick]

Gamma I really would have unvoted if you said I was keeping my vote on and signalling to a scumbuddy to hammer before the wagon dispersed. cause that's the first thing I thought that you were thinking when you said it.

Wouldn't that be inconsistent with his recently-developed townread on you though?

[Klick]

How about this: you're both town because neither of you are considering the fact that scum have day talk.

[Klick]

All private threads that exist for this game will be open for day talk.

I agree that it's easy to fake, but it's difficult to make it look real and the odds of it being picked up on are rather low.

PEdit: Much, much happier with ofrhz between those two choices.

[Klick]

Yeah Klick I now you don't want Chemist lynched but that makes me want to lynch Chemist even more

But my reasoning is pretty solid!
If you're worried about me being Chemist's buddy that much why not consider me part of the lynch pool?

[Klick]

Also, thank you EP, much appreciated. I disagree that a lot of stuff in Mena's case is alignment-indicative (particularly the parts where Gamma gets heated about non-game stuff), but based on that response I can tell that you're not solely sheeping Menalque and you've put a fair amount of your own thought into the read, which is what I was looking for.

[Klick]

I don’t wanna compromise on gamma for today. I don’t really think chem/ofhrz helps towards a solve at this point, but I think gamma does.

Consider these two hypotheticals:

1. Both Chemist and ofhrz are scum. Wouldn't lynching one of them almost certainly help towards a 'solve'?
2. You and Gamma are town. How many times out of 10 do you think this town decides not to lynch you before endgame?

I think it's less important to vote for someone whose hypothetical flip will most optimally position town to 'solve' the game, and more important to vote scum.

[Klick]

^
That was my pet theory earlier today, but Creature made me second-guess interacting with me a few nights ago.

[Klick]

To both of you: Why is Creature town? What has he done that is outside of his ability as scum?

[Klick]

I really don’t like how hard the push has been to divert away from gamma towards ofhrz/chemist (clearly increasingly ofhrz)

On the contrary, I'm surprised by how little attention ofhrz has received all day up until this point. Even now there's an alarming amount of fighting this wagon with hardly anyone expressing a townread on him.

[Klick]

He seems to really like Pokemon, I like him, seems like a cool fellar. Not sure what his rolecard is, could go either way, but I kinda feel like he's probably today's consensus lynch one way or the other and his flip is probably good for gamestate? I've kinda been waiting for everyone to feel kinda caught up before pushing for a claim but I haven't really seen a reason yet to go somewhere else tbh

I'm not happy with this. You're semi-confirmed town, your reads are vital. Don't settle - find reads and push them. Use your gut if you need to, it's usually more accurate than sound logic and we don't have reason to assume you're BSing.

[Klick]

At this point the Menalque/Gamma 1v1 is basically collapsing, with Gamma disillusioned and Menalque having doubts. From my perspective, the biggest reason it's still being pushed is because enough people have this perception that it's good for the gamestate. Not enough people actually have conviction in this being a wagon on scum - and that's really bothering me.

There is value in your reads. Of course there's value in town's reads. People might not look at them enough, but that doesn't mean there's no value.

[Klick]

I think most of this is NAI. Cinnamon was pretty obviously going through something IRL while playing this game based on his last few posts. That would sufficiently explain a change in behavior from active to passive and address almost everything in Menalque's case on him.

Actually it doesn't really. Cinnamon was in multiple concurrent games before he siteflaked

I fail to see how this is relevant. Unless you're arguing something about his behavior in those games, and I don't want to check whether or not those games are ongoing.

He siteflaked. He seemed to have a lot going on. If anything, being in multiple games at once would only add stress in that sort of situation and make him more passive.

[Klick]

Going on a walk, will respond later

[Klick]

Wait no I can respond to that real quick.

All I said was you had doubts. I didn't say you lost your scumread or that you want to lynch somewhere else. You're not disagreeing with me.

[Klick]

I have 4 votes on me and the summary of the case on me is that

1) I'm low activity which is fairly consistent across the site because of IRL Things

Compare this to the reasons Cinnamon is being scumread.

2) I voted RP because my scum partners told me to vote RedPanda in the PT (speaking of which, I have played scum with daychat a few times now and I've never been explicitly told to vote someone upon replace in)

Agreed that this is a stretch.

[Klick]

I feel better about menalque town and am cooling on gamma

Still prefer this though

VOTE: pink

I've been paranoid about them since the game started but I think he's not top priority.

If we agree that lynches should be in {ofrhz, Chemist, Menalque, RedPanda} I think we're into something. And by lynches I mean not only today. Of course we revaluate if we are wrong but I think that's a solid lynch pool, because of the townbloc that is implied with that. If we lynch Chemist and he flips scum I would trade ofrhz for another player, but more into that later.

This is pretty good but let’s not lynch me first

I’d vote gamma over menalque atp but pine needs to post more before we end the day

VOTE: gamma

I'm struggling to see your reads progression tbh.

[Klick]

Hello!

[Klick]

Wait no I can respond to that real quick.

All I said was you had doubts. I didn't say you lost your scumread or that you want to lynch somewhere else. You're not disagreeing with me.

I just felt like your phrasing was kinda manipulative to play down the gamma vs me situation which in turn makes it easier to deflect onto ofhrz.

Idk I still think you’re prob town but that really seemed off to me.

I also don’t like your thing about not enough people having conviction that gamma is scum. I mean, they’re voting him? And RP didn’t seem to me like he’s totally sold on gamma as town from what I remember so I just am not convinced that statement is true

I mean yes, I have an agenda in what I'm saying - I want ofrhz lynched over Gamma. But I do agree with what I said.

You and EP are voting Gamma and have what I would consider proper conviction. I disagree with your reasons (and I would love your thoughts on my refutation of your reasoning on Cinnamon), but I would consider them legitimate. Ofrhz is also voting Gamma, but his reads progression is suspect and doesn't seem to be thought through - I think he's the scum on the wagon. And DP's reasoning is lazy.
Two players out of eleven with what seems to be legitimate conviction in their Gamma votes. That's why I'm saying it doesn't seem right.

[Klick]

Duuuuude

The guy says "like I have to have some sort of priority list, and I can't have every game be #1" but he joins another game in the queue?

Come the fuck on, he's not even playing this game.

He's not being lynchbaity 'cause he's avoiding the thread.

This is really bad reasoning. There are a few people in this game that play way too many games and you're choosing the most convenient one to push.

Like I agree that it's bad behavior, but it's not scummy.

[Klick]

Did someone see the action Tim took? Otherwise the confirmation is hearsay currently. I don't wanna be

that guy

but this shouldn't be a done deal unless there's extra evidence.

This is a valid take.

[Klick]

Gamma is at L-1.

Hmm, ofrhz is at L-2 I think. I'll wait for a bit, but count me as an

unofficial Ofrhz vote.

VOTE: Chemist

This is flipping scum, 100%

This timing is pinging me quite hard.

[Klick]

I'm ok with Gamma today, he's the most annoying of the scumteam that's for sure

Btw why don't you put your vote where your mouth is
Bitch

'Cause I still think you're protecting your PR partner.

Rude. I'm bitchin'.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

This is Pokemon Ruby, pal, not Emerald.

You spent last page talking about why Chemist was a better lynch than Gamma. Why switch here?

[Klick]

Pikachu, what are you going to do to play around the fact that when Gamma flips town, the scumteam is going to leave you alive to LyLo so that people get paranoid and lynch you?

Because right now, you're falling right into that trap.

[Klick]

You're talking like you're a separate entity from town. If you're town, it's absolutely your responsibility to not get mislynched.

Step it up.

[Klick]

[quote="In post 1814, Detective Pikachu"If town lynches me in late game they deserve the loss.[/quote]
If you let yourself get mislynched at LyLo as town, you deserve the loss.

[Klick]

Because the way you're playing is specifically setting up for that scenario. As semi-confirmed town, you're contributing bare minimum and going for the laziest lynch.

[Klick]

Gamma is ignoring mech,

Is this in regards to not thinking you're confirmed town? Because I basically agree with what he's said there.

failing to solve for town,

I mean, this is blatantly false and if I were at a computer I could show you several quotes that shut this down. Just read through Gamma's ISO.

and exhibiting bizarre overreactions to a range of people pushing him.

'bizarre overreactions'? What specifically are you seeing that you find scummy there?

I don't really have a problem seeing him as scum, and he's refusing to join on chemist which would be the next best candidate for scum to me right now.

Why do you think Chemist is scum?

As for "lazy lynch" ofrhz is basically absent from the thread and is almost universally pushed in every game she is in always. So who exactly is pushing a "lazy" lynch here? Oh wait, that's right, that's Gamma's top scumread, the one with the case you're in love with.

I don't think I've said a word about Gamma's case on ofrhz?
Feel free to engage with my own reasoning for voting ofrhz, though. Or Gamma's for that matter.

[Klick]

Also, in light of 'bizarre overreactions' to pressure being a scumtell, I present the following posts:

VOTE: Detective Pikachu

If you're just going to talk in 'Pika-pika!'s all day, we have no choice but to policy lynch you.

Here's one advice: we gotta start acting early if we want to have a shot of winning as town here.

Town that take too long to react tend to lose.

[citation needed]

Seriously, this has probably been said in every game I've popped my head into in the past five years, and I've seen no evidence that there's credit to it. We're here to have fun! It's been less than a day, there's nothing to be worried about just yet.

Though my vote on Detective Pikachu was semi-serious, and I'll give a cookie to the first person who can tell me why.

Can you see why I might have gotten an early scumread on DP based on their posting thus far?

Sorry: I have a light scumread on Detective Pikachu. Can you spot why?

Hello, partner!

VOTE: Klick

I like the memes of this list but I am also sad because I wanted to play with Dr Worm

I know it was RVS, but can you talk to me about why you decided to vote me here, Pikachu? Because your post doesn't have a reason, silly or otherwise.

Hello, partner!

VOTE: Klick

I like the memes of this list but I am also sad because I wanted to play with Dr Worm

I know it was RVS, but can you talk to me about why you decided to vote me here, Pikachu? Because your post doesn't have a reason, silly or otherwise.

This is why I have a scumread on Pikachu.

I'd rather get any response from Pikachu before laying all my cards on the table!

I voted you because a wagon with three votes is more interesting than a wagon with two votes.

Then why not say this at the time? I found your vote odd because there was zero explanation behind it. It seemed like it was placed with the intent of drawing no attention, as opposed to starting discussion.

VOTE: Klick

No worries

Pikachu's my best lead atm. His response to my pressure hasn't been a good look.

Your pressure being you spamming the thread asking someone on v/la why they voted you in rvs? That's not pressure that's fluffposting. You've basically been exclusively asking me one pointless question that has an obvious answer.

[Klick]

There are a few points there that aren't insinuating you might not be confirmed town. I would love to hear your thoughts on them!

[Klick]

I'll just not play with chemist because he refuses to play the game as either alignment and makes the game worse for everyone else and I'm done trying to read him

He made the game better for me