Open 761: Grey Flag Nightless - [It's over!]

[Shoshin]

I was seriously dreading rolling scum this game and the moment I opened .y role pm and saw that I was town was one of the happiest of my life

The same feel.

[Shoshin]

I haven't read closely enough yet, just skimming. You?

[Shoshin]

I'd guess Buj town from the couple posts I saw.

[Shoshin]

I was rushing to a meeting when I posted earlier so yes just skimming.

I don't think anyone is "strong scum" at this point. I could see the seed of a scumread on Chemist.

[Shoshin]

Who's your strong scumread?

[Shoshin]

You don't have to do anything... but if you want me to townread you, and you should, then opening up your thought process is the best way to do that. Closing it off is how you get scumread, since it's actually just a scum tell for you.

[Shoshin]

I don't want to put the player on guard in a way that will hurt my ability to read them any more than simply stating I have a strong scumread already does.

This worry is out of character with your confidence in scumhunting.

[Shoshin]

I don't think you're as self-aware of your tells as you think. You're much more open about your reads as town than scum.

[Shoshin]

Bit, what're your reads so far?

[Shoshin]

Why scum on me & Buj?

[Shoshin]

What makes Buj's post scummy, Bit?

[Shoshin]

I'm going to be obvtown, RC. If you push my lynch after that point, I will know you're scum.

[Shoshin]

And if you were going to suggest the possibility of me being scum on Page 4, I would expect it to be for better reasons than the ones you've presented.

I didn't say you're scum. I asked you a specific question with the intent of townreading you based on your answer, but you chose not to answer. In response, I pointed out things you're doing that prevent me from townreading you.

You're sewing seeds of paranoia about me for no reason at all. I thought you'd give me more time to obvtown myself, why are you expecting miracles in my first few posts?

[Shoshin]

RC is the hardest scum to lynch in this lobby if he's scum seems like a pretty obvious starting ground as town. If I'm hard defending scum, that's one thing.

I have no idea what you're saying.

[Shoshin]

I have no idea what you're saying.

I'm saying that you going after me makes more sense as scum than town, period.

This is how I feel about you. You know for a fact that my alignment will be obvious by D2 if not before. Yet from the very start you've been casting shade on me. Why?

And again, I'm not going after you. I'm trying to talk about your reads but you instead want to talk about how I'm scum when I'm not.

[Shoshin]

I already hate this game.

RC's scum if he pushes my lynch.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: RC

[Shoshin]

Can you please stop treating me this way, RC? You know for a fact my alignment will be obvious by D2. There's literally no point to this except making me not enjoy the game.

[Shoshin]

If I were scum, I probably wouldn't have confirmed my PM. Given how long this game took to start, I would have felt justified in doing so.

[Shoshin]

My alignment will be obvious because it's town. It's only non-obvious when scum.

[Shoshin]

If you push my lynch, I will know you're scum & will make sure you get lynched after me. That's all I have to say on the matter.

[Shoshin]

I'd like to know your "strong scumread" from earlier because that's a good place for us to begin discussing things that are actually AI for us. Talking about whether I'm scum is really boring, and when I say boring, what I mean is not AI.

[Shoshin]

I think today will go much better, RC, if you assume I'm town for the purpose of scumhunting together, at least in these early parts of the day.

[Shoshin]

and i've had enough stupid quickhammers to last a lifetime.

I share this sentiment. Did you see the game where I was quickhammered as town on page 4?

[Shoshin]

Okay, sure.

I vaguely townlean Bitmap right now. How about you?

Maybe town, maybe. I think they're buddying you if scum.

What's your read on Ircher?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

Weren't you just sheeping RC? I don't understand this vote.

[Shoshin]

I think I've been pretty clear that you're not getting lynched today unless you push my lynch.

[Shoshin]

You could say the same about me, I guess.

[Shoshin]

Do you agree with me that Buj is town?

[Shoshin]

I'm feeling stronger about town Buj upon reread.

I don't like that Bit/Abu are setting up a dichotomy between us.

[Shoshin]

Datisi struck me as awkward when reading, but I'm not sure if it's the player or alignment.

[Shoshin]

It's very plausible.

[Shoshin]

oh look who rolled scum again VOTE: RC

Is this how scum interact with town you right on post 8?

[Shoshin]

I understand exactly what pings you about Datisi. I had concerns about her as well. Calling you a "dumbass" felt very forced, for example.

[Shoshin]

Do you think it wouldn't be?

It seems unlikely that scum would want to attract your attention from the start.

[Shoshin]

The point of votes is lynching, actually.

[Shoshin]

What's your experience with RC, Bit?

[Shoshin]

What're your reads, Buj?

[Shoshin]

I just noticed that Gameshow ended. I knew you were scum back on D1 in that game, RC. I don't know how you do this but well done on that.

[Shoshin]

I think my initial instinct on scum Chemist is maybe correct.

[Shoshin]

No, it's his posts.

[Shoshin]

That's a good vote. I'll add Bit to my town group.

[Shoshin]

Hey Chemist, who are your partners? Please be honest.

[Shoshin]

UNVOTE: RC

[Shoshin]

Hey Shoshin, assuming that I die tonight, would you rather

1) I dictate the 3 remaining kills or
2) you get to dictate the first 2 but if you fail twice you get lynched in lylo

I'd prefer neither of these.

[Shoshin]

I would sheep you but I couldn't help thinking that mafia can't be this bad.

They usually are.

[Shoshin]

How do you distinguish town Buj from scum Buj, RC?

[Shoshin]

Dat/Chemist/Abu is plausible team.

[Shoshin]

He seems out of touch with reality a bit, which is usually a town tell for him.

[Shoshin]

I'm not strong town on him, easily could flip to scum. I'm struggling to find townies in this game so I'm grasping at straws mostly.

[Shoshin]

More than others.

[Shoshin]

I think we're in trouble if you're scum either way. Not enough strong town presence to defeat scum you. So not much point worrying about it at this point.

[Shoshin]

So why is Buj scum?

[Shoshin]

See, you ignore questions so much RC yet nobody gives you flak for it. Yet everyone gets so upset at me for doing it. I don't get it.

[Shoshin]

It's just that one post?

[Shoshin]

Especially when games exist in which I was far more accurate than you on day 1.

There's no such game.

[Shoshin]

Buj, want to talk about your reads?

[Shoshin]

Especially when games exist in which I was far more accurate than you on day 1.

There's no such game.

Nice selective memory

Which games?

[Shoshin]

Buj, want to talk about your reads?

Which ones

All of them.

[Shoshin]

Like I was aware you were joking.

I still don't feel like you make that joke as scum.

I'm confused by this. Can you explain?

[Shoshin]

If Datisi is town, then yeah maybe scum Buj here.

[Shoshin]

Your reads weren't better in the multiball, they were different. You being right about one player that I wasn't right about doesn't make your reads suddenly more accurate as a totality.

[Shoshin]

It was also a multiball game. It's not very representative of regular games.

[Shoshin]

If Datisi is town, then yeah maybe scum Buj here.

This is the opposite of what I think

I'm just basing this off what I know about scum Buj.

[Shoshin]

He'd be inclined as scum to throw out a reckless townread on a townie who objectively appears scummy, but I doubt he'd recklessly defend a teammate in a scenario where town RC suspects them.

[Shoshin]

The post is inherently more likely to come from scum based on several years of empirical data of the kind of posts that town and scum make, especially especially if Datisi is scum. This is based on both the content, the format, the smiley, and his later justification of it.

Empirical data sounds nice. You've convinced me.

[Shoshin]

Skoffin? If you mean Skitter, I expressly scumread Skitter before end of D1. The townread was temporary while I sorted her. You were striaght-up wrong about me and wrong about Chenn, and wrong about CHemist, all of whom I was right about.

[Shoshin]

In fact, Skitter chose me as night kill precisely because I scumread her.

[Shoshin]

I might be confusing some of your reads with TW's, who knows. You were a hydra so that's another thing that sort of muddies up that game. In regular games, your reads havne't been more accurate than mine.

[Shoshin]

What precisely is your read on Datisis, Buj?

[Shoshin]

Explain it in detail.

[Shoshin]

Actually, I scumread Skitter because of her awful push on Chemist.

[Shoshin]

Fire, both town. I don't think it's even a question that your reads were worse than mine.

[Shoshin]

Example of this confidence that you find towny?

[Shoshin]

End of day 1 after I specifically called her out on the persi thing and then she started changing her mind and not agreeing with you. Yeah well done shoshin

It's also a bit strange that you're downplaying my reads because they were wrong at the beginning of the day but right at the end. Like, isn't that how mafia is supposed to work? You start off with no information and over time refine your reads?

[Shoshin]

Buj wonders why I say he's out of touch with reality. It's because he can't even admit that my reads were better in Fire than his.

1. I didn't townread RC on D1. Buj did.

2. I scumread Lycan on D1. Buj didn't.

This isn't even debatable.

[Shoshin]

oh look who rolled scum again VOTE: RC

R u town datisi please answer honesy

Honesy, I'm town

Can you fill out the following questionaire

1) on a scale of 1-5 how likely are you to sheep my vote
2) on a scale of 1-5 how irritated are you by me

1) 0 because you're not voing anyone dumbass????
2) it stops at 5?

How do you interpret "Honesy, I'm town" as confidence? I thought it was awkward as fuck.

The "dumbass" line felt like overcompensating to me (i.e. the opposite of confidence).

[Shoshin]

End of day 1 after I specifically called her out on the persi thing and then she started changing her mind and not agreeing with you. Yeah well done shoshin

It's also a bit strange that you're downplaying my reads because they were wrong at the beginning of the day but right at the end. Like, isn't that how mafia is supposed to work? You start off with no information and over time refine your reads?

The problem was you created dissonance and sorted me wrong and was destroyed any chance of working together and townread vork and initially townread skitter all because YOU WERE SO SURE PERSIVUL WAS SCUM. Your over-confidence on that one read shaped up a huge portion of day 1 and it was wrong, and had you not been wrong on that one and pushing a mislynch you and I would have BOTH been much better at sorting each other and the rest of the game if you had just had some hesitation on it at least.

I sorted you town. I said you were town because you were out of touch with reality. You sorted me wrong. Don't confuse your bad read with mine. I was wrong about Persi, that's true. But I was right about Chemist, who town ended up mislynching.

[Shoshin]

Alright, whatever. Buj will forever blame me for stuff, that's okay. I don't blame him for being who he is.

[Shoshin]

I dunno, Buj could be town RC.

[Shoshin]

We only get three lynches this game?

[Shoshin]

See this is why I don't want to bring this up. You never change your responses. You still refuse to see things ovjectively. Everything you do is super awesome. Everything the others do is super dumb. When the reality is so much different.

Fire on the mountain you had literally every townie tell you how bad what you were doing was.. even the people who are not against self-voting. Yet you continued to justify it to everyone that it was pro-town.

I never said everything I do is awesome. I've had plenty of bad moments.

The town in Fire was awful. I could care less what they think of my play there.

[Shoshin]

Ircher's a curious player.

[Shoshin]

I have no problem with you Buj. I find it annoying that you constantly try to diminish the quality of play, especially since I've always complimented you on good reads in the past.

[Shoshin]

Even in Fire, I called you reads good, and then you called me a bad player because of the self-vote. It's just annoying.

[Shoshin]

Abu, what's your read on Chemist?

[Shoshin]

I feel if Radiant was scum, they would be approaching this game differently.

What would he do different?

[Shoshin]

I'm a bit skeptical of people just townreading you outright, sorry.

[Shoshin]

Even you are usually skeptical of it.

[Shoshin]

I pushed RC?

[Shoshin]

If we get 4 lynches, does that mean we win as long as we find 5 town?

[Shoshin]

We win as long as we find 4 town? Can you help me understand how this works out?

[Shoshin]

Personally, I think it's very annoying when anyone defaults to a townread or scumread on RC without actually trying to read him. But if you're gonna do it, better to townread than scumread.

[Shoshin]

RC has a couple sheep in this game (e.g. Ircher) but we don't have to follow his lead.

[Shoshin]

I find it annoying that the people who are enticed by the idea of trying to bring me down and showering in glory
rather than trying to find an effective method of reading me
just decide that the correct play is to call me scum every game and push me in the hopes that eventually they'll get me lynched as scum if they try to lynch me every game

It's also just bad play. Like, you're going to be town more often than scum just as a matter of probability.

[Shoshin]

Huh?

[Shoshin]

I'm not pushing town to ignore you.

[Shoshin]

What's your take on Chemist's latest posting?

[Shoshin]

RC has a couple sheep in this game (e.g. Ircher) but we don't have to follow his lead.

Well, I'd rather people made up their own minds than just sheep you outright. But that doesn't mean I want them to ignore you.

[Shoshin]

I also prefer people follow my lead over yours, as usual. This isn't anything new, RC.

[Shoshin]

I'm assuming RC/Bit are town for the moment.

That leaves three scum in Datisis, Chemist, Voted, Ircher, Buj, and Abu.

Whoever the town is in this group, please make yourself obvtown for our sake.

[Shoshin]

Lynching Dat/Abu probably wins the game.

[Shoshin]

His case on Ircher looks like a scum case to me.

[Shoshin]

I feel if Radiant was scum, they would be approaching this game differently.

What would he do different?

The basic premise lies within your early interactions with Radiant. Radiant is a really aggressive player who also has a slight tendency to reflexively scumread people who cast doubt on his slot. But when I read your early interactions with Radiant, I get the feeling that's it's either TvT or SvS. Though y'all disagree on quite a few points, Radiant seemed actively interested in sorting you as well as working with you. He had an agenda, but it didn't feel like a scum-motivated one.

I don't think this answers my question. What would scum RC do different?

[Shoshin]

He can be in my lynchpool I guess

As of right now I want to kill all of {datisi Abu chemist buj}

And spare RC Shoshin Bitmap Ircher

There's a 9th slot I have no read on huh

This is sort of where I'm at. Less sure on Ircher.

[Shoshin]

Who is the "he" you're talking about?

[Shoshin]

Why is Buj town, Chemist?

[Shoshin]

I think your understanding of RC's scum play is incorrect, Ircher. But I'm willing to accept that you believe this.

[Shoshin]

Could be.

[Shoshin]

I don't know Datisi so I don't know if you're telling the truth about her. But my sense is that she's scum who's given up.

[Shoshin]

Personal experience tells me that you do in fact lie as scum in ways that could be disproven. It's not something that you're guaranteed to do as scum in all games, but you definitely do it.

In other news, I just wish the townies would make themselves more obvious.

[Shoshin]

Why is Voted even in this game if he's not going to play it?

[Shoshin]

You lied in Fire. You lied in Open game. You lied in the JM game.

[Shoshin]

Part of it might not even be intentional, I dunno -- but you definitely distort information in ways that you don't as town.

[Shoshin]

In Fire, you lied about me in ways that you should have known better because of conversations we had outside the game. I called you out on it in the game, but I guess you don't remember.

[Shoshin]

I mean, I can pull up examples from the games if you want.

[Shoshin]

viewtopic.php?p=10810225#p10810225

There's one example. You lied twice on the same page, and I called you out on it.

[Shoshin]

We can talk more about your scum tells outside this game, though.

[Shoshin]

You were pushing my mislynch based on a meta argument that was completely invented, RC. And you were referring to games off-site that never took place. That's called lying. And it's something you never do as town, and sometimes (not always) do as scum.

[Shoshin]

There's other examples, but I don't think this is the place to talk about it.

[Shoshin]

I've noticed differences to normal play, but I wouldn't have said it was in posting style.

[Shoshin]

I'm mostly in agreement with you about reads, except less sure on Buj. But this is partly because I hold out hope that town Buj will obvtown himself, and I'm waiting for this to happen.

[Shoshin]

Are you scum?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Datisi

[Shoshin]

I am.

[Shoshin]

And if you die, you don't trust me to win the game after?

[Shoshin]

The last time we played a game where mafia had one kill (the duel game), I was the kill. So I dunno. Seems plausible that I'd die.

[Shoshin]

Oh yeah, because you randomly dueled another townie.

[Shoshin]

Don't blame town for that one, RC.

[Shoshin]

But anyway, what else is there to say?

[Shoshin]

You became obvtown later yeah but so was the townie you dueld.

[Shoshin]

Anyway, we won that game. It was ultimately a success.

[Shoshin]

I'm sorry you feel that way.

[Shoshin]

Oh, in the duel game, yes. I prefer to sheep your reads over PP.

[Shoshin]

I'd sheep your reads over anyone, with maybe a couple exceptions depending on the game. But I don't think your D1 reads are more valuable than my D2 reads, sorry. I thought you were saying your reads were more valuable than mine.

[Shoshin]

You know I respect your reads, RC. Why are we even having this conversation?

[Shoshin]

I'm usually willing to sheep you on D1 but not D2, btw.

[Shoshin]

I thought he did.

[Shoshin]

What're your reads Bit?

[Shoshin]

Voted is pretty null. Why scum?

[Shoshin]

So is some of the town.

[Shoshin]

I don't understand why you're so worried. Do you really have so little faith in me to win this without you?

[Shoshin]

Why is RC town, Ank?

[Shoshin]

I'm still waiting for a day when scum give up instead of playing out an obvious loss.

[Shoshin]

Yes.

[Shoshin]

Why aren't any of you sheeping RC? His top scumread after Datisi was Buj.

[Shoshin]

We're not lynching Ircher. I can tell you that much.

[Shoshin]

We have three lynches to win the game. Who are the three lynches, Ank?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Ank

[Shoshin]

You just told me to lynch you?

[Shoshin]

I wanted to know your preferred set of lynches but I guess you just want the game over with? Understandable.

[Shoshin]

Why waste two lynches on Buj & yourself?

[Shoshin]

Is there some reason to reevaluate reads, Bit? Datisi flipped scum, as expected.

[Shoshin]

No, I said RC convinced me on Buj with his empirical evidence.

[Shoshin]

I might still switch to Buj today. We'll see. Ank's just incredibly underwhelming. She's basically scum claiming.

[Shoshin]

Let's see what Buj has to say about the game. He might have given up already.

[Shoshin]

He's getting replaced?

[Shoshin]

Isn't Ircher/Voted your solve?

[Shoshin]

Who was saying Voted was scum?

[Shoshin]

UNVOTE:

Anyway, I'd like to see what Buj says before deciding who to lynch first.

[Shoshin]

Doesn't matter if Voted is scum as long as Ircher is town. Lynching Buj/Ank/Chemist should win the game.

[Shoshin]

Why aren't you scumreading Buj, Ank?

[Shoshin]

What's your preferred order of lynches, Bit?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Buj

[Shoshin]

You're next if Buj is town.

[Shoshin]

The order is Buj/Ank/Chem.

[Shoshin]

Kind of a boring game to be honest.

[Shoshin]

I think this game was mostly over for scum the moment both me & RC got town. You did alright in that neither of us wanted to lynch you.

[Shoshin]

RC had some inspired reads this game, which was nice.

[Shoshin]

Are we going to wait for his replacement?

This made me think Bit/Buj was the solve, btw. I think it was a bit of a slip in that you knew something about Buj we didn't.

[Shoshin]

I was impressed by YOUR effort, Ank. All this talk of no effort on this acc, and then a random super massive wall, lol.

[Shoshin]

I mentally gave up after D1.

Thank you for playing with me, RC and Shoshin. You two helped this game not be dead.

Why not just give up?