Mini 2084: Pokemon Ruby Mafia - Game Over

[EspressoPatronum]

Here to fulfill Detective Pikachu's coffee addiction.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: RedPanda Tim and DP run a democracy here at Poke City. There's no room in this neighborhood for your unilateral declarations.

[EspressoPatronum]

Still, Gen 2 is better.

Preach!

[EspressoPatronum]

Sorry: I have a light scumread on Detective Pikachu. Can you spot why?

I don't see anything. His posts with Tim are jokes on the DP movie. Maybe his entrance vote on Klick, but even that was setting up the interactions with Tim.

Care to explain your read?

[EspressoPatronum]

I'm officially making this wagon a serious deal:

VOTE: Klick

There:

VOTE: Detective Pikachu

So much for making the Klick wagon a serious deal. Why swap?

[EspressoPatronum]

I live outside of Ryme City and I commute on odd nights and possibly even nights as well, please don't target me with night actions!

Lol you even switched your location to Ryme City

[EspressoPatronum]

I live outside of Ryme City and I commute on odd nights and possibly even nights as well, please don't target me with night actions!

Lol you even switched your location to Ryme City

Why did you respond to that post and not the vote on you?

Nothing I can say to a gut read.

[EspressoPatronum]

@Klick can you tell us why you had a slight scumread on DP?

[EspressoPatronum]

I played pokemon red when it came out. it was okay

haven't touched the stuff since

but making animals fight each other is cruel. did you know that millennials who consider themselves pokemon fans are less likely to think dog fighting is wrong than those who don't? yeah, that's some messed up stuff, huh?

You've crossed a line...


Pokemon Red was far better than "okay"

[EspressoPatronum]

Espresso is probably my top scumread so far,

I think they’re picking and choosing what to respond to

You're 100% correct that I'm picking and choosing. I tried responding to everything in my 1st game and it almost got me lynched as jailer on D1. Once I started picking and choosing my posts, things got a lot easier.

I plan to do the same kind of thing this game. Fewer posts, but higher quality. It'll help keep things streamlined + not clog up the thread.

[EspressoPatronum]

I'm kinda meh on Redpanda and Klick right now. Happy with either as a vote.

Redpanda

Also town stop being so useless. I've made a couple of posts that you can use to start discussion. If you don't have anything to talk about use it.

Does it count if I use this post as a discussion? Of your 6 posts, only 2 contain anything we cod use to start a discussion. You declared an end to RVS (ok?) and you left a 'serious' vote without explanation.... and now you're whining that town is being useless? Plz

Klick

@Klick, you've been super defensive to the Tim+DP votes. I don't agree with DP that Klick has been spamming, but I do agree that you've been focusing too much on DP's vote against you.

It looks your 'light scumread' of DP transformed into a more legit scumread. @Klick am I right in this assumption?

I have a follow-up question or two depending on your answer.

[EspressoPatronum]

...
His response to the pressure has been to aggressively push back/discredit, and that has me more comfy with my vote.
...

Ah kk, I thought it was his initial response. In his heads up about being V/LA, he also mentioned his vote on you was just bcz a bigger wagon is more interesting.

Are #95 and #101 the posts that "aggressively push back/discredit"?

[EspressoPatronum]

Interested to hear some thoughts from the following people:

u r a person 2
Lil Uzi Vert
Cinnamon
ClearlyClarity

Lurker scum can be pretty dangerous. These four haven't posted much yet.

[EspressoPatronum]

I’m voting him because I kinda think he was being intentionally obtuse in 64 but I like 69. I relate to it a lot and find myself in that position more often than I would like. No pun intended.

Re: 64 , I know that Creature and Klick talked in between his Klick and DP votes, but I wanted more of an explanation. He said his vote was to help pressure DP, but does that also mean he thinks Klick is more town?

It just seemed like a weak pivot shortly after making the wagon a "serious deal"

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: ClearlyClarity
Didn't really respond to the lurker prod + Clarity's posts thus far don't give us much information.

I'll also be keeping an eye out for Cinnamon's post(s) in the near future.

[EspressoPatronum]

I'm reasonably confident EP is scum.

You've gone from a gut read to "reasonably confident" ... care to explain?

[EspressoPatronum]

Your approach to the game is a scum one.

A lot of people said that in my last game, too. I don't think I can talk about it much bcz it's still ongoing. Here's the thread if you want to look at how I played D1 and D2.

viewtopic.php?p=10979682#p10979682

This is my second game on Mafiascum. I've played 2 forum games off-site and tons in person. Maybe I'm just doing something normal in the metas with which I'm familiar, but it comes across scummy here.

[EspressoPatronum]

I have a bit of an EP scumread here. Their response to 67 and not 68 kind of suggests that they're trying to get Tim on their side, or at least take the spotlight off them. While it's not scum indicative to push on lurkers it's an easy way to generate a read as scum and it also helps bring attention to other players when he's getting pushed.

I want Tim on my side because I have a town read on him from post #65. Chem already asked me about my lack of response to the gut read + I responded the best I could.

My experience with forum mafia has been that lurkers last way too long. In both games off-site, lurker maf made it to the end. People who post a lot draw more attention + tend to get picked off from lynches and NKs earlier. Meanwhile, lurkers coast without generating a lot of discussion. You (and a lot of others) say lurkers are an easy vote, but I have yet to see an actual lynch on someone because they lurked.

Fwiw, I wasn't really being pushed when I made the post calling out lurkers. Tim had a vote on me before, but I think the other votes came after my lurker call-out.

[EspressoPatronum]

Call me back when something cool happens.

Kk, so you have DP as town. Any scumreads?

You made your vote in Klick in RVS. Do you still agree with your vote? Why/why not?

[EspressoPatronum]

Why do you townread me for claiming commuter?

The forum mafia wiki post says commuter is almost always pro-town.

[EspressoPatronum]

Why do you townread me for claiming commuter?

The forum mafia wiki post says commuter is almost always pro-town.

Mafiascum*

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Commuter

[EspressoPatronum]

Oh, are you actually new?

Yes. This is my second Mafiascum game.

[EspressoPatronum]

I don't think my scumread is particularly good if you're actually new.

Lol kk. Once were a few days in or when the game ends, can you tell me what it was that pinged you?

I was serious in my post about my playstyle getting scumread on Mafiascum.

[EspressoPatronum]

vague townlean on CC I guess

Why? I don't see it.

[EspressoPatronum]

Call me back when something cool happens.

Kk, so you have DP as town. Any scumreads?

You made your vote in Klick in RVS. Do you still agree with your vote? Why/why not?

By "something cool" I don't mean "interrogate me because I'm on your arbitrary lurker prodlist" but w/e.

You're my biggest scumread rn. Klick is like... muddled. 105 was kinda bad but they actually try to scumhunt, even if misguided or reaction-testy.

Thanks for your opinion on Klick.

Perhaps it comes across as an interrogation, but I'm just trying to get an idea of your perspective on the game. You haven't responded much, so I figured some pointed questions would help kick things off. As you can see, others with low posts are being similarly prodded.

Can you share why/how you got to your scumread of me? As it stands, it looks like it's either a bandwagon read or an OMGUS.

[EspressoPatronum]

Can you share why/how you got to your scumread of me? As it stands, it looks like it's either a bandwagon read or an OMGUS.

Honestly? You're right. Sorry. I signed up for too many games and I've always been more miserable in games outside of Newbie queue. I hate being in the dark about reads. Your posting has actually been p towny and I OMGUS'd out of annoyance.

Thanks for the honesty. If you find the time over the next few days, can you drop a quick post on people who feel the most scummy? We can @ you with specifics from there.

UNVOTE:

Got my sights set on URAP and Cinnamon now. Hoping to see more content from them tomorrow.

[EspressoPatronum]

I'm not really sure what more content you want to see right now. It's kind of weird that you say that when

I've posted my reads and you haven't interacted with them at all

.

Fair point. There isn't a lot imo, but at least there's something. I'll look into it more tomorrow.

[EspressoPatronum]

[Regarding Cinnamon's posts on DP and me]
This looks like scum posting an opinion on the dp slot after a few of us already townread it and moving on to the espresso wagon after a few scumread it and now is stuck and flailing around now that espresso heat is gone.

Agreed. Cinnamon is playing a reactionary game. He's been active on two occasions, and both were in response to my prods. He also hasn't supplied any information that wasn't already popular town opinion.

I also notice that he ignored my post on his vote (see #195)... but then later complained that I wasn't engaging with his reads.

[EspressoPatronum]

Also, @Cinnamon. At the time of my post at #222, you had 9 total posts. 4 of those were fluff.

I wouldn't call that 'pushing for lurking' just for the sake of it, especially considering #195 engaged with your vote.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: Cinnamon

I should have added this to the end of one of the posts above. See reasoning in #234 and #235.

[EspressoPatronum]

Instead of a 'I want to hear more' I feel like town is more inclined to have questions to ask about my position so far or what I've said

You said that you "feel like town is more inclined to have questions to ask about [your] position...." Aside from your question to Tim and others who townread me, you haven't asked about anyone's position. Applying your own logic to your gameplay thus far, would you agree you aren't acting very towny?

In an effort to move you into more proactive play: can you give us some more reads and/or thoughts on people that aren't me, DP, or Tim?

[EspressoPatronum]

townreading {EP, TG, Cinnamon, CC}

I don't think you need to list yourself, lol. Isn't it assumed you townread yourself?

[EspressoPatronum]

Can you share why/how you got to your scumread of me? As it stands, it looks like it's either a bandwagon read or an OMGUS.

Honestly? You're right. Sorry. I signed up for too many games and I've always been more miserable in games outside of Newbie queue. I hate being in the dark about reads. Your posting has actually been p towny and I OMGUS'd out of annoyance.

This feels really unnatural to me.

I thought it was genuine. #217 reads as though Clarity is annoyed, and she admits as much in #219.

What part is unnatural about the post is unnatural to you?

[EspressoPatronum]

Interested to hear some thoughts from the following people:

u r a person 2
Lil Uzi Vert
Cinnamon
ClearlyClarity

Lurker scum can be pretty dangerous. These four haven't posted much yet.

I think this looks good though

Espresso can be town

Why can’t this post come from scum? I disagree with his take on lurker scum to be honest.

You disagree that lurker scum can be dangerous?? Please elaborate.

[EspressoPatronum]

I’m voting him because I kinda think he was being intentionally obtuse in 64 but I like 69. I relate to it a lot and find myself in that position more often than I would like. No pun intended.

Re: 64 , I know that Creature and Klick talked in between his Klick and DP votes, but I wanted more of an explanation. He said his vote was to help pressure DP, but does that also mean he thinks Klick is more town?

It just seemed like a weak pivot shortly after making the wagon a "serious deal"

I don’t think he was serious. The VC prior to Creature placing his vote indicated that Klick’s wagon was a result of RVS at the time. Creature voting there without any reasoning provided makes me think he just wanted to meme around but it came off awkward or at best, add pressure.

Even if it was real, there’s a bit of an exchange between 54 and 62 that could have made him change his mind and town read Klick, or at least feel better about him or her. Since I believe he wasn’t serious, I don’t think the pivot is weak. He’s going from having placed a non-serious vote on an RVS wagon to sheeping a wagon that he believes has legit reasons or sheeping one of his town reads.

Creature's post on #52 (immediately before his vote) suggests he's no longer voting bcz of RVS. That's why I thought (and still think) his vote was serious.

The pivot was weak imo, but I have him as townlean from his other posts.

[EspressoPatronum]

Side note - how do I link numbers to the corresponding posts? I've just been using #number to point ppl to the post in question, but a direct link is way more convenient for the reader.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: luv

Blatant Tim sheep btw

[EspressoPatronum]

Interested to hear some thoughts from the following people:

u r a person 2
Lil Uzi Vert
Cinnamon
ClearlyClarity

Lurker scum can be pretty dangerous. These four haven't posted much yet.

I think this looks good though

Espresso can be town

Why can’t this post come from scum? I disagree with his take on lurker scum to be honest.

You disagree that lurker scum can be dangerous?? Please elaborate.

You are unable to mislead, misdirect, and manipulate consistently if you’re lurking.

I've read several guides on forum maf over the last two weeks to help shore up my forum inexperience. Most guides say that successful maf teams have a combination of "deep threats" and manipulators. Manipulators stir up confusion, lead mislynches, and stall before they're picked off by lynches or PRs. Deep threats are responsible for blending in and making it to the end game to solidify a win.

You're right that lurkers can't manipulate consistently, but I would argue that you're overlooking potential deep threats.

Fwiw, I recognize that active players can still be deep threats, but I'd say lurkers are the more likely candidates. Lurking into deep threat has a smaller margin of error to being active (ie. Fewer chances to slip) and it requires less effort.

With all that theory in mind, I think focusing on lurkers has two benefits:
1. You limit the pool of lurker scum deep threats; and
2. Even if you lynch town, a lurker town is less valuable than an active town.

[EspressoPatronum]

Anyone with experience, please feel free to jump in on the lurker post above. I'm interested to hear your perspective on the matter, as I know focusing/not focusing on lurkers is a fairly contentious topic.

[EspressoPatronum]

Really liked Gamma's Entrance. It made Cinnamon's slot look a lot better.

VOTE: Detective Pikachu

At this point, I'm pretty happy throwing my vote on anyone who isn't Tim, Pine (CC), Gamma (Cinnamon), or Creature.

[EspressoPatronum]

What part is unnatural about the post is unnatural to you?

Huh?

I meant to write:
What part about the post is unnatural to you?
or
What part is unnatural about the post to you?

But instead I wrote both.... rip.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: Pink Ball
Their last post doesn't mesh with their activity level or what I feel like their personality is

Also worth noting that 13 of his 15 posts are fluff. The remaining 2 were him hopping on the early push against me.

[EspressoPatronum]

Hi fellow trainers I’m your new CJV

Welcome!

VOTE: redpanda

Can you elaborate on why?

[EspressoPatronum]

But I'd only do that if you work with me.

I trust your reads enough if you're town. I'm not townreading you.

Sure, what do you want to do rn?

Good stuff. I'll vote with you guys.

By all rights PB should be scum with that iso, but I kinda feel that way about URAP2 and Chemist1422 and ofhrz slots as well.

PB + URAP2 + Chemist

I feel like ceejay puts more effort before replacing out as scum.

Not so sure about Chemist as scum yet, but I'm happy with the other two.

DP gets D1 immunity for flavor reasons.

If he shows he is fun to play with, I agree.

So is DP a no-go today?

[EspressoPatronum]

So is DP a no-go today?

This pings my scumdar hard.

Tim and Creature are two of my townreads and have agreed to work together. If they both don't want DP to happen today, I'll gladly hop off the wagon.

[EspressoPatronum]

So is DP a no-go today?

This pings my scumdar hard.

Why?

I think it's mostly "what is this person's objective?" If EP is Town, then their objective is to lynch their scumreads. If they're scum, then their objective is to blend in. A classic newscum strategy is to just go along with the consensus, keep your hands clean. Making an unpopular stand on something is difficult, risky, and Townish. So the quoted line, taking the temperature of the consensus, being willing to equivocate...it strikes me as newscum. It's hardly an ironclad read, I'd need to do an ISO dive to get a better handle. New players are always the worst to get a read on.

I think my ISO will stand for itself. If your scum radars are still going off after that, I'll be happy to chime in.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: URAP2

all aboard the URAP2 wagon.

[EspressoPatronum]

Menalque replaces u r a person 2.

Firebringer replaces Lil Uzi Vert.

Welcome to you both.

@Menalque, that was a pretty wild entrance. Is this your normal playstyle, or do you expect this to change after you sleep? As it stands, it looks like it could have been a play to draw so much attention that ppl would think you're too scummy to be scum.

@Firebrand, what do you think of your predecessor's reads list?

[EspressoPatronum]

why couldn't i have gotten scum.

why in a game that is pokemon can I not throw a pokeball?

Inb4 he's a scum PR with a pokeball-themed power.

[EspressoPatronum]

id feel like that would be an appropriate comment if i thought for a minute u were trying at this moment instead of just blaming me for nothing going on.

So if you want me to participate you could lead the conversation by directing me to discuss various events that has happened this game or you could chill out and go with the flow till the game goes into the area you want it to.

but your current route is just annoying passive aggressive

What are your thoughts on the first 619 posts of the game? Anyone stand out as scum from those? Who looks town?

[EspressoPatronum]

@Firebrand, I don't think he's blaming you for the game being slow right now. It's more likely that he wants you to proactively engage in discussion. I'd like to see the same fwiw.

A start would be to catch up on the thread. In there, you'd see that most people with low post got prodded for content. Your situation here is no different.

Some highlights of events (based on my memory. I'm probably missing some):
Klick wagon early
Espresso push
Lurker prods
Cinnamon push (?)
DP wagon
URAP wagon
Orfhz push/wagon

[EspressoPatronum]

id feel like that would be an appropriate comment if i thought for a minute u were trying at this moment instead of just blaming me for nothing going on.

So if you want me to participate you could lead the conversation by directing me to discuss various events that has happened this game or you could chill out and go with the flow till the game goes into the area you want it to.

but your current route is just annoying passive aggressive

What are your thoughts on the first 619 posts of the game? Anyone stand out as scum from those? Who looks town?

good question.

i think theres alot of people who are town in this game in those posts. Specifically posts 1-512; Theres at least 9 town and 2 scum in there. But when you take a look at posts 513-601; Some of those reads flipped and a few new reads now I have 10 town and 5 scum. I also think player 1,2,3 are really standing out. Seem very prolific in their posts and stances. I think we should focus on those 3 because they are definitely important.

Can you actually do this for real though?

[EspressoPatronum]

Wow, I just realized your name isn't Firebrand.... it's Firebringer. My bad.

Both of my @Firebrands should be @Firebringer!

[EspressoPatronum]

alright

I would hate myself if I didn't lynch Menalque today.

VOTE: Menalque

Case to follow tomorrow

don't l-1 yet

i really need another day

yea i can't commit to a read yet

UNVOTE:

Is the case against Menalque mentioned in 740 still coming, or have you fully swapped to Firebringer?

[EspressoPatronum]

idk I have too many townreads at this moment I think. I need to prune that list.

I am gonna call scum rn as pinkball, ofrhz, and Pine. Why Pine? Idk. I want to townread pine and that is the only reason I want to say he is town so he must actually be scum.

my logic is flawless.

If scum I would say pine would be the distancing target here

but the problem is I slightly thought cc might be town

Kinda feel like ofrhz is town, I'm town, pink ball I'm soft gut town idk... too many people I want to townread this game

His entrance posts directed at Pine would add to this.

[EspressoPatronum]

no problemo, but seriously how was the movie?

It was great imo. Meh story, but very immersive and creative world. It had a healthy sprinkling of humour, too.

[EspressoPatronum]

idk I have too many townreads at this moment I think. I need to prune that list.

I am gonna call scum rn as pinkball, ofrhz, and Pine. Why Pine? Idk. I want to townread pine and that is the only reason I want to say he is town so he must actually be scum.

my logic is flawless.

If scum I would say pine would be the distancing target here

but the problem is I slightly thought cc might be town

Kinda feel like ofrhz is town, I'm town, pink ball I'm soft gut town idk... too many people I want to townread this game

His entrance posts directed at Pine would add to this.

Adding to this... Firebringer never mentions DP.

Bad look for Pine and DP if Firebringer flips scum.

[EspressoPatronum]

Hmmmmm, LUV doesn't mention DP either...

[EspressoPatronum]

If he flips scum, DP needs to go next.

VOTE: Firebringer

[EspressoPatronum]

who is DP?

Detective Pikachu.

And before you say it... I don't count a quote + fluff as "mentioning" someone in a post.

[EspressoPatronum]

i mean ur doing preassociations on day 1 with no flip. u already doing this wrong, u don't need me to tell u that ur wrong

Please expand on what you mean. Serious request.

Thus far, I've made a smallish townread pool and am looking for reasons to lynch from my scum pool. As mentioned previously, I'm happy to lynch anyone from said scum pool. In considering my vote, I have been looking at some +/ all of the following:
1. Current pressure on my target;
2. Value provided by their posts thus far; and
3. Potential information to be gathered from their lynch.

Applying these factors, you're a great lynch candidate. You already have a lot of pressure on you (1), you have limited game-related posts (2), and I believe we could gain information about DP if you're scum (3).

On the latter point, the fact that neither you nor your predecessor has mentioned DP is strange, and I think that is scum indicative of DP if you're scum. If you're town, your disassociation with DP is probably NAI.

What other factors should inform my D1 vote?

[EspressoPatronum]

Oh FYI I just won a game where I called scum v early on where the slot was being broadly TR’d and cinn was in that game and I TR’d him against multiple people thinking he was scum and I was right

Making me 2/2 on cinn reads so far even against pressure

Then D2 I called the second scum slot in my first post

So maybe I’ve been coming on a lil strong but then again when your reads are this good why wouldn’t you

A broken clock is right twice a day.

Maybe you just got lucky, or maybe you're good. Tough to say without a larger sample size.

[EspressoPatronum]

umm i wasn't telling u how to vote. just telling u shouldn't be making associations between players this early as it often leads to blunders down the road. if u read me scum independently of anything anyone else has done then ur good. Just that ur associations between me and others could be corrupting potentially solid reads for really bad logic/reasoning that ruins u later.

Fair, but I would still like your input on the factors I listed. What do you do for D1?

Do you agree that it's strange both you and LUV didn't mention DP at all? He even had a decent push against him for a while. Given my expanded reasoning for the vote against you, do you still think it's bad logic +/ corrupting my reads?

[EspressoPatronum]

day one? I shitpost till i find something interesting to talk about that makes me interested enough to find the motivations of a player and then start the hunt.

rn i would prefer to shit post but since Tim is pushing me, I think i feel less inclined to do so.

I might stick with shit posting till someone does something eye catchy enough worthy of my effort.

rn my reads are based more on gut than anything so they aren't worth talking about

Thanks for detailing that for me. I'm not sure if it fits my style, but it's good to get a different perspective.

Have you had a chance to catch up on the thread yet? There's bound to be something in there "eye catchy enough" to make things worth your effort.

[EspressoPatronum]

fire has the same scum strategy in all his scum games, pretend to be nonchalant about being wagoned until people get second thoughts about it.

So the stuff earlier was a reaction test to see if he'd stay nonchalant?

[EspressoPatronum]

Creature, I trust u to lead the push on Tim. U are the new Firebrander

Lol, this didn't age very well. RIP Tim.

It'll be worth looking at who Tim's top scumreads were. While he was likely targeted bcz he was being widely townread, it could also be that the maf team was feeling the pressure from him.

[EspressoPatronum]

from that list

Firebringer and Creature are better than the remaining slots for sure

soooo

Detective Pikachu
Menalque u r a person 2
Pink Ball
ofrhz ceejayvinoya
Pine ClearlyClarity

Very notable is that DP was fine sheeping me 'til I led on Ofrhz then tried to wagon someone else
Also Menalque came in swinging to counterwagon Ofhrz lol

I trust RC on Menalque and ofrhz.

The Ofrhz rationale looks a little weaker now that DP is basically conf!town.

VOTE: Menalque

[EspressoPatronum]

If I had the info scum are either all on Firebringer wagon or out of the Firebringer wagon, I'd say the latter.

The Firebringer wagon like happened almost spontaneously, so didn't necessarily need scum putting effort in, specially considering Firebringer already made himself pretty lynchable.

They would still want to make sure they were not all voting the same way (ie. they all wouldn't want to be off of FB).

I'd guess 1 on, 2 off.

[EspressoPatronum]

If I had the info scum are either all on Firebringer wagon or out of the Firebringer wagon, I'd say the latter.

The Firebringer wagon like happened almost spontaneously, so didn't necessarily need scum putting effort in, specially considering Firebringer already made himself pretty lynchable.

They would still want to make sure they were not all voting the same way (ie. they all wouldn't want to be off of FB).

I'd guess 1 on, 2 off.

Can someone explain why this is a philosophy because it seems ripe for abuse

It makes it harder for town to use vote counts for information later in the game.

[EspressoPatronum]

(1) How? (2) Is VCA really that important to you? Imo 90% of the time it's a minor help at best. [Numbers added for clarity]

1. Example: X, Y, Z vote together for a few days. If X flips scum, the town will focus its attention on Y and Z. Mafia don't want that to happen, so they usually want to make sure they're not always voting with their teammates.

2. It doesn't really matter if VCA is useful all the time as long as it's useful some of the time. Even if it's a minor help in 90% of games and a significant help in >10% of games, it's a tool the town has at its disposal to help solve. I'm not saying it's gospel, I'm saying it can be useful.

Since scum want to limit the amount of useful tools to the town, they have reason to avoid doing things that the town can use against them. If that means splitting up votes to limit a small number of games (ie. those in which the town could have used VCA but for vote splits), it's worth doing as long doesn't give them away.

I think the mafia splitting their votes was pretty low risk on D1, so my best guess is they probably did.

[EspressoPatronum]

Or scum could vote as a bloc to subvert that expectation. Don't assume people always play the same way, Mafia is not a Nash Equilibrium

"...they

usually

want to make sure they're not always voting with their teammates."

[EspressoPatronum]

can we quick review the townblock

let's start with pine, for instance

who all is locked on pine town and who is not?

(basically doing anything so that this nka theory fest dies immediately here)

We should wait for Pine's catchup post before getting into details of our reads. We don't want to influence the catchup post.

[EspressoPatronum]

Before getting into details of our reads on Pine*

Happy to move on to the next person up for review.

[EspressoPatronum]

Ok

Who all is good with pink ball town block?

I read through his ISO again + it generally feels more towny than scummy. I'm not super confident with my read on him though, so I'd say he's on the towny side of null for me.

@DP I think you should save your thoughts until last.

[EspressoPatronum]

I like creature and Tim rn.

VOTE: EspressoPatronum

I'm cool with this right now.

weird that Cinnamon is being this vague out of RVS, and couching both of these with "right now"s as mentioned by someone else

Choo choo

Don’t you mean...

Pika-choo choo?

this is also out of character -- I don't think I've seen Cinn fluffpost or make jokes outside of RVS at all. he's normally much more focused and serious throughout. I think this is him trying to be lighthearted in order to show how towny he is only it doesn't work

Tim, on the other hand then do you have any townreads?

looking for reads from someone who was coming off as super towny rather than trying to actively solve himself, again, this doesn't fit with prior play

Can you share why/how you got to your scumread of me? As it stands, it looks like it's either a bandwagon read or an OMGUS.

Honestly? You're right. Sorry. I signed up for too many games and I've always been more miserable in games outside of Newbie queue. I hate being in the dark about reads. Your posting has actually been p towny and I OMGUS'd out of annoyance.

Thanks for the honesty. If you find the time over the next few days, can you drop a quick post on people who feel the most scummy? We can @ you with specifics from there.

UNVOTE:

Got my sights set on URAP and Cinnamon now. Hoping to see more content from them tomorrow.

I'm not really sure what more content you want to see right now. It's kind of weird that you say that when I've posted my reads and you haven't interacted with them at all.

Cinn normally pushes back super hard against anyone scumreading him as town. the fact that his response is so tempered here makes me think this is him drawing scum and not wanting to pull attention, especially as last game together he got widely scumread and only narrowly avoided being mislynched (in no small part because I correctly TR him for this behaviour and pushed back against those gunning for his lynch super hard)

Tim or anybody else townreading Ep rn could you explain your EP townread?

again, soliciting information rather than building cases

Cinn does ask questions a lot as town but the fact that he seemed like he was just focusing on Tim defo could have been a pocket attempt from where I'm sitting

it also just seems more forced than his more freeball questions in the games I've played with him, making me think he's trying to copy his town play but it doesn't come across as genuine

By engage, I mean something I can respond to, whether that's a question or a discussion point. You responded to my post sure but there's not much in that post that I felt was worth responding to and then you post that you want to hear more from me. That's the vague 'pushing for lurking' sentiment that I felt.

Instead of a 'I want to hear more' I feel like town is more inclined to have questions to ask about my position so far or what I've said

this is just more of him being way softer on someone scumming him (EP) compared to what's normal behaviour for town!Cinn

Hmm, this looks pretty compelling. Once I started townreading Gamma, I assumed Cinnamon's low effort / fluff posts were because of the outside influences that eventually culminated in him asking for replacement. Your meta-based argument offers a good alternative explanation.

What's your read on Gamma independent of Cinnamon's behaviour?

[EspressoPatronum]

sorry, probs should have spoilered that

there you go EP

Thanks!

Two quick notes to help fill out your Cinnamon post:
1. I believe Cinnamon's scumread of me was influenced by my lurker prod of him. Does that fit with his normal behaviour?

2. @DP was the one who noticed the "right now" trend on Cinnamon's reads.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Menalque's case is pretty strong imo.

[EspressoPatronum]

UNVOTE:
I'm only unvoting because I don't want to see a sudden hammer. He's still my top scumread, but we should hear what he has to say before voting him out.

[EspressoPatronum]

Someone please unvote before we get a repeat of yesterday.
Ive seen zero actual compelling reasons to scumread Gamma so far.

Regardless of your opinion on Gamma, today really shouldn't end yet

We should have a bit of breathing room now.

UNVOTE:
I'm only unvoting because I don't want to see a sudden hammer. He's still my top scumread, but we should hear what he has to say before voting him out.

L-2 btw

[EspressoPatronum]

I think Gamma is the right call. I unvoted him to give him time to respond to the pressure, but his responses didn't change my mind.

Menalque's case against Gamma is pretty strong + it made me come back to my Cinnamon scum read.

I don't think the Chemist push is worth pursuing today. As others have stated, we need a resolution to Menalque v Gamma. If we don't do it today, we'll probably be stuck doing it tomorrow.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

[EspressoPatronum]

No. Gamma scum flip would give us so much town cred that it will make scum miserable.

+1. I'm coming around on RP being town + I agree with a lot of what he's saying today.

The only thing holding me back a bit is the high accuracy of his reads. There's a chance that he's using his scum knowledge to produce better reads.

[EspressoPatronum]

Huh getting paranoid about RedPanda

Tbh I think RP is a fine vote, I've suspected him consistently, he's felt rather slimy recently, and iirc he was one of RC's scumreads
VOTE: RedPanda

Why isn't he voting Menalque here?

The RP vote just looks like he's going out of his way to not OMGUS vote Menalque. Gamma's preceding posts laid out the groundwork for a plausible Menalque vote (eg. mention of faulty logic and lies), but he doesn't follow through with it.

[EspressoPatronum]

Mena lied about gamma not voting pink ball

He already addressed this btw:

Also yeah, my bad on the not voting PB thing

If you think that’s scum!indicative tho then lmao

No way scum!me outright lies in a wallpost about something that obvious to disprove, esp not when scum are already gunning for my lynch

___________________________________

It's easy to miss or forget a bit of information when you're doing a wall post. He put together two wall posts, so I'm not surprised he missed something. Calling it a lie is a little much.

[EspressoPatronum]

Creature
Detective Pikachu
Pine
Klick
Pink Ball

That's 5/6 town already

Creature
Detective Pikachu
Pink Bal
Klick (trusting Arcy)
Chemist1422
0.5 Pine

5.5/6 town

My reads are heavily aligning with this atm.
Talk to me about Pine/CC?

I really think we should hold off on discussing Pine until he posts the "big catchup post" promised in 989.

It'll help avoid biasing his post and reads. In the off-chance that he replaces out, it will also help get a more genuine list of reads from his replacement.

[EspressoPatronum]

Mena lied about gamma not voting pink ball

Thank God someone reads

Also yeah, my bad on the not voting PB thing

If you think that’s scum!indicative tho then lmao

No way scum!me outright lies in a wallpost about something that obvious to disprove, esp not when scum are already gunning for my lynch

Oh I missed this

As evidenced by me not having my vote on you, I didn't regard it as a reason to lockscum you because I'd already concluded it was also very possible you were tunneled town. However the last line of the quoted post has me confused as to your mindset, as you are arguing scum are pushing scum!you in that scenario.

Sorry but this is just too good.

[EspressoPatronum]

I for one would love to see what you have right now, even if you disagree with it in hindsight.

Agreed. I've been asking people not to post their reads on you yet in an effort to not taint your catchup post. It'd be more informative if you post what you have right now, then follow up with why you think differently.

[EspressoPatronum]

Apparently I'm not feeling hype, I'm feeling sad

I'm sorry to hear that. You okay?

[EspressoPatronum]

Chemist is also okay but EP's vote broadcasts the exact behavior I'm anticipating from scum here.

Can you elaborate on this behaviour?

[EspressoPatronum]

So from that I feel like EP and Chemist have greater partner equity from a quick look around out of any pair I'd consider between (RP, Chemist, EP).

To clarify my stance on Chemist:
It's not that I think he's town per se, it's that I think one of you or Mena needs to die. As I agree with Mena's position, I think you need to die.

If we don't do it now + the fight continues, there's a very slim chance either of you will die from scum. If that happens, we'll likely have to resolve it later in the game when it hurts more if we're wrong. Unresolved disputes like this tend to lead to both parties making it to a mylo/lylo scenario.

Lynching Chemist would prolong Mena v Gamma. Since I think prolonging Mena v Gamma is bad, lynching Chemist today is also bad.

[EspressoPatronum]

You know what I'm locking myself in on this hunch: I think Menalque is town and our dichotomy is a TvT. The level of unwillingness to change the course of things tells me scum have 2 mislynches lined up easy. Obviously this points to RP but Chemist and EP are also worth looking at currently. Beyond that I'm going to poke into the wagon shifting weirdness I noted earlier.

You really seem to be driving this dichotomy between me and Menalque forward

I am indeed. See my post above.

[EspressoPatronum]

I looked at some posts from Day 2 and I think there's some stuff between Chemist and EP that possibly indicates partners compared to either RP and EP or RP and Chemist. I'm not going to say those two are for certain partners yet but it's a decent idea based on my current beliefs.

Can you quote the posts? I looked through my ISO and Chemist's ISO but I don't see where you're coming from.

That being said, here's my guesses:
1. Our minimal interactions;
2. Chemist's vote on you after my vote on you; or
3. My deflection of the Chemist wagon.

Let me know which, if any, are the reasons + I'll be happy to talk it through with you.

[EspressoPatronum]

3 is the main thing I noticed, but 1 and 2 are worth looking into as well

And you're not satisfied with 1426, right?

In your opinion, what do we do on D3 if:
1. We lynch you and you're town;
2. We lynch you and you're scum;
3. We lynch Chemist and he's town;
4. We lynch Chemist and he's scum.

My thoughts:

Spoiler:

If scenario #3 or #4, there's a high likelihood that you and Mena are still up for discussion tomorrow.*

If scenario #2, Mena gets a pseudo-townclear.

If scenario #1, I'm not sure tbh. I think Mena is town either way, but I don't know how the others would interpret it.

* Unless you convince Mena that you're town. In that case, you solve the problem of #3 and #4.

[EspressoPatronum]

Thanks for posting the unaltered version, Pine. When you get current, we can talk about how your reads have changed from D1 to D2.

[EspressoPatronum]

POSSIBLE SCUMTEAM 1
RC/Tim

Hmm what?

POSSIBLE SCUMTEAM 2
Detective Pikachu

DP was neighborized by RC/TG

These are Pine's reads from pre-flip and pre-D2. Pine is still ~18 pages behind.

[EspressoPatronum]

@RP can you walk me through your EP/Pine dichotomy?

[EspressoPatronum]

If my gut read on Gamma is wrong then I I have rethink my gutreads and since EP is still in my scumpool, I think it's a good lynch.
If my gut read on gamma is good, Then I'm gonna trust it till I'm wrong.

I know pine and Ep are not in same team so I lynch between them depending on how pine posts.

Expand on this?
Btw I'm back to considering you town but now it's based on your logic rather than assumptions I've made

When Pine townread Ep for a post, it pinged me that It's either pine town or pine scum townreading town EP. I'm poeing EP if pine is town.

So you think I'm scum if Gamma or Pine flips town?

[EspressoPatronum]

Fwiw, my read on Pine from D1 and his catchup post is town. I doubt that will change once he's fully caught up.

[EspressoPatronum]

3 is the main thing I noticed, but 1 and 2 are worth looking into as well

And you're not satisfied with 1426, right?

In your opinion, what do we do on D3 if:
1. We lynch you and you're town;
2. We lynch you and you're scum;
3. We lynch Chemist and he's town;
4. We lynch Chemist and he's scum.

My thoughts:

Spoiler:

If scenario #3 or #4, there's a high likelihood that you and Mena are still up for discussion tomorrow.*

If scenario #2, Mena gets a pseudo-townclear.

If scenario #1, I'm not sure tbh. I think Mena is town either way, but I don't know how the others would interpret it.

* Unless you convince Mena that you're town. In that case, you solve the problem of #3 and #4.

I'm going to ignore 2 as fmpov it's not possible.
1: poke at Menalque but do not lynch him without serious consideration of others. Assuming a standard scumteam suze he'd be 1/3 of the scum even if he is scum, so he'd have partners.
3: I'd expect to get seriously FOSed for swaying lynch onto Chemist.
4: Take the scumflip into account and partner hunt hardcore.

Thanks for this. Fair point on #2 - I was going to exclude it, but I figured I'd put it in for the sake of being thorough. What does FOS mean btw?

Can I get a recap on what made you suspect me?

Tbh, my read on you personally was town. I had a scumread on Cinnamon before you came in.

Menalque's case against you brought me back around to my scumread on Cinnamon (/your slot).

[EspressoPatronum]

If my gut read on Gamma is wrong then I I have rethink my gutreads and since EP is still in my scumpool, I think it's a good lynch.
If my gut read on gamma is good, Then I'm gonna trust it till I'm wrong.

I know pine and Ep are not in same team so I lynch between them depending on how pine posts.

Expand on this?
Btw I'm back to considering you town but now it's based on your logic rather than assumptions I've made

When Pine townread Ep for a post, it pinged me that It's either pine town or pine scum townreading town EP. I'm poeing EP if pine is town.

So you think I'm scum if Gamma or Pine flips town?

I'm not townreading you and I would if gamma and pine flip scum.

Got it. In that case, let's see where things go today. We can cross the bridge of addressing your scumread of me as the need arises.

[EspressoPatronum]

Gamma is town. Just read Cinnamon's ISO. RP, untunnel mode activate!

Can you point me to Cinnamon's town posts? I thought his ISO was scummy.

[EspressoPatronum]

EP are you here?

Yes

[EspressoPatronum]

What, specifically, did you like about Menalque's case on Gamma?

One sec. I'll go through it, clip what I liked, and send it your way.

[EspressoPatronum]

@Klick. My notes are in

this colour

.
TL;DR:
1. I had a scumread on Cinnamon
2. I firmly believe Mena is town
3. Mena thinks Cinna/Gamma is scum

Therefore, vote with Mena against Cinn/Gamma.

Spoiler:

I like creature and Tim rn.

VOTE: EspressoPatronum

I'm cool with this right now.

weird that Cinnamon is being this vague out of RVS, and couching both of these with "right now"s as mentioned by someone else

Agreed. DP brought this up first, but I agree nonetheless

Choo choo

Don’t you mean...

Pika-choo choo?

this is also out of character -- I don't think I've seen Cinn fluffpost or make jokes outside of RVS at all. he's normally much more focused and serious throughout. I think this is him trying to be lighthearted in order to show how towny he is only it doesn't work

I also dislike when people pull away from the game. Mena adding a meta read to this gave me reason to look into the behaviour more.

Tim, on the other hand then do you have any townreads?

looking for reads from someone who was coming off as super towny rather than trying to actively solve himself, again, this doesn't fit with prior play

Can you share why/how you got to your scumread of me? As it stands, it looks like it's either a bandwagon read or an OMGUS.

Honestly? You're right. Sorry. I signed up for too many games and I've always been more miserable in games outside of Newbie queue. I hate being in the dark about reads. Your posting has actually been p towny and I OMGUS'd out of annoyance.

Thanks for the honesty. If you find the time over the next few days, can you drop a quick post on people who feel the most scummy? We can @ you with specifics from there.

UNVOTE:

Got my sights set on URAP and Cinnamon now. Hoping to see more content from them tomorrow.

I'm not really sure what more content you want to see right now. It's kind of weird that you say that when I've posted my reads and you haven't interacted with them at all.

This post seemed scummy to me. I believe I highlighted it on D1 + tried to bring Cinnamon into a more proactive role. Mena scumreads this post for different reasons:

Cinn normally pushes back super hard against anyone scumreading him as town. the fact that his response is so tempered here makes me think this is him drawing scum and not wanting to pull attention, especially as last game together he got widely scumread and only narrowly avoided being mislynched (in no small part because I correctly TR him for this behaviour and pushed back against those gunning for his lynch super hard)

Tim or anybody else townreading Ep rn could you explain your EP townread?

again, soliciting information rather than building cases

Cinn does ask questions a lot as town but the fact that he seemed like he was just focusing on Tim defo could have been a pocket attempt from where I'm sitting

it also just seems more forced than his more freeball questions in the games I've played with him, making me think he's trying to copy his town play but it doesn't come across as genuine

This part is meh for me. The other stuff was stronger.

By engage, I mean something I can respond to, whether that's a question or a discussion point. You responded to my post sure but there's not much in that post that I felt was worth responding to and then you post that you want to hear more from me. That's the vague 'pushing for lurking' sentiment that I felt.

Instead of a 'I want to hear more' I feel like town is more inclined to have questions to ask about my position so far or what I've said

this is just more of him being way softer on someone scumming him (EP) compared to what's normal behaviour for town!Cinn

Read like the first 4 pages and have some opinions already

this feels like it's a v plausible fake after reading through everything, seeing pressure on his slot, and then posting this to talk about how he wasn't trying to obv!town bc he didn't know his slot was being pressured

also can't remember the numbers but wasn't Cinn pressure starting around p4? need to check that

I played pokemon red when it came out. it was okay

haven't touched the stuff since

but making animals fight each other is cruel. did you know that millennials who consider themselves pokemon fans are less likely to think dog fighting is wrong than those who don't? yeah, that's some messed up stuff, huh?

If you don't like the games and are going to bash others for liking them like this, get the fuck out now. I'm not gonna tolerate this at all. Also, where is your evidence for the dog fighting claim?

this felt v aggressive unneccesarily and like setting up a reason to go after urap!slot (aka me) later which did then happen, but he can talk it off by lacing it as being about Pokemon (as we see later)

I don't have a ton of forum experience, but from the 4 or so games I've played (2 off-site btw), faked aggression seems to be an easy out for scum.

Interested to hear some thoughts from the following people:

u r a person 2
Lil Uzi Vert
Cinnamon
ClearlyClarity

Lurker scum can be pretty dangerous. These four haven't posted much yet.

At this point feeling Espresso is town. Liking their instincts.

I think espresso seems scummy early game but is just mislynch bait -- to actually read him as town (or as town without mentioning that the reason for it is that he seems super mislynch-y) is weird and pocketing

Tough to tell on this one bcz he replaced in after Tim's push on me. The pocketing note is the big one here. Most (if not all?) of Gamma's posts regarding me were supportive or town-leaning. I think this influenced my read on him to decide that his slot was town.

Choo choo

Don’t you mean...

Pika-choo choo?

Pikachu is town and I’m not seeing any non-RVS reasoning for his wagon tbh

Call me back when something cool happens.

This isn't good imo

think this is him seeing that CC is a good potential slot that also replaced out and deciding that pushing there will make him look town

also CC is an easy push because she hasn't done anything towny but equally hasn't done anything scummy, so it's a great way to look like he's productive while not focusing on any of the important players and whether or not they're town

{TG, CC, EP} is a good starting ground

What about CC's posting was town?

more of this

Call me back when something cool happens.

Kk, so you have DP as town. Any scumreads?

You made your vote in Klick in RVS. Do you still agree with your vote? Why/why not?

By "something cool" I don't mean "interrogate me because I'm on your arbitrary lurker prodlist" but w/e.

You're my biggest scumread rn. Klick is like... muddled. 105 was kinda bad but they actually try to scumhunt, even if misguided or reaction-testy.

My problem with CC is that they were kinda coasting by and were acting like they weren't the reason the game is slow.

and more of going after CC for just slow playing, I don't think she ever made claims that the game being slow wasn't to do with her, so this is misrepping

dang

i feel like both CC and EP are pretty hard town after that last interaction

like i guess CC might just be playing super well but i think i'm pretty happy clearing them both.

I can actually understand this given the previous post by CC

backing off it but he's created some susp on that slot to come back to if his other desired push (urap!slot aka me) doesn't come off

I don't rly agree here.

cinnamon and cc are scum. Will post in sometime.

Now that I've come around on CC I don't like this post, feels like targeting LHF lurkers

RP is correctly SRing Cinn so there's a pushback here in the same way that he'll do to me when I correctly SR Cinn on my entrance

I was pretty sure RP was scum at this point in the game, so I wasn't giving his posts a ton of weight. I would't have noticed this without Mena's point

I was waiting for both cinnamon and clearity reactions to my post to vote for the scummier one but since clearity is ignoring this game, I'm forced to choose.

I don't like that cinnamon ignored my post. Seems like cinnamon is scared of a back and forth that might happen.

Vote cinnamon

Still wanna hold to this push now that they've replaced out?

this is a weird way to try and deflect pressure

I'm trying to learn everyone's name before pushing anyone

...ok. How is this coming?

VOTE: Pink Ball
Their last post doesn't mesh with their activity level or what I feel like their personality is

I think the last two are distancing probs

That's a pretty bad entrance?

Also I spoke to cinnamon unrelated to this game and he had a family member in the hospital; you're kind of pushy about this Cinnamon didn't siteflake thing.

But he didn’t though? Didn’t know about the family in hospital thing and I’m sorry to hear it but doesn’t change the fact that he didn’t

Yeah you're coming off as irl scum so really back this the fuck up

hyper aggressive overreaction

clearly my arguments on Cinn aren't being accepted at this point and I wasn't getting much traction

This is a big point in favour of my read on Mena. He was pushing on Cinnamon/Gamma from the outset, even though it caused a lot of people to scumread him. It would have been easier to pick a more lynchable target and blend in as town.

why freak out like this? bc gamma is scum and he knows I've got him, and probs pissed off that it isn't even bc of his play but bc of the play from Cinn beforehand

I’ve played with Cinn before and there’s no way that slot is town lol

Where did I say “Cinn never does C as town”? I’m saying that I think Cinn was playing completely out of character here from what I know of him, and I’ve read some of his meta and think it seems off for that too

The whole family thing does throw me off a bit, but I also think it makes total sense for Gamma to come in and try to be as obv town as possible as the cinn!slot was getting somewhat scumread when he entered the game

I wasn't trying to obvtown I was trying to revive a game I perceived as stalled

the lack of contribution (just vaguely hitting at my slot, painting CC as potential scum which was easy) means this doesn't hold up

I’ve played with Cinn before and there’s no way that slot is town lol

Where did I say “Cinn never does C as town”? I’m saying that I think Cinn was playing completely out of character here from what I know of him, and I’ve read some of his meta and think it seems off for that too

The whole family thing does throw me off a bit, but I also think it makes total sense for Gamma to come in and try to be as obv town as possible as the cinn!slot was getting somewhat scumread when he entered the game

So Cinnamon playing out of character is enough to call him obvscum, but you say to not judge you off your own obvtown game you had? Not buying it.
VOTE: Menalque

I now have two town games although admittedly I couldn't talk about it at the time -- but could easily have looked at my user and read a bit of that game where I was also p obv town based on flips by this point and my play in that game is much more similar to here

There is someone in this game who can vouch for me being good at detecting scum town!faking after pressure versus genuine town

Also I noted I read only the first few pages as soon as I entered so what makes you think I felt I was under pressure?

easy, I think you're lying about only reading the first few pages as you entered

K

zzzz

Yaaaaay

LOLOLOLOL

TIM IS RC.

So does this reinforce you opinion about Tim?

i don't know what it makes me think

Ok

contributing nothing but looking active

I caught scum last game for this same behaviour

Agreed. It's also hedgy.

Hey look at that, everyone's scumreading me, that means even my partners agree I should be wagoned

This feels so trite

think this light interaction is distancing

note that gamma never votes pink

I feel like historically I've been a shit ton of games where I was the only one who scumread someone playing hyper aggressively and I usually ended up being right
I think that -oh that confidence is towny- isn't good logic here. scum would need to do something big with this entrance with how tight the PoE pool already is. this is a situation to make a push like that.

why not apply this to gamma?

I wasn't hyper aggressive though, just hyper active
Did you see me go for someone's neck out of the gate?

yeah I saw you be hyper aggro on urap

then go in on the CC slot

even if your phrasing was calmer the intention was there

That was essentially gatekeeping

convenient excuse when pressed

less convincing given how you jumped on me which is the same slot

I could see that
Anything else? About yourself or anyone else

Could you expand?

asking Qs but not really advancing the game in a solve-y way

Be more specific

I want know what is informing some of your reads rn, I'll say Creature Tim and Espresso for now

I started calling people attention and wanted to analyze whoever called me scum at the begining of the game, then see what their intentions could be. People who didn't call me scum at the begining didn't deserve analysis.

Creature because of the way he started posting. There was no need for his classic bullet posting shenanigans at the begining of the game but he did it anyways so I think he wasn't trying to look town but instead just being town.

Tim because when he's scum he waits for me to call him scum before calling me scum 'cause he knows that's the best way to disengage with me 'cause I don't like being called scum when I'm town. He scumread me before I said my read on him so he genuinely thinks I'm scum and there's no agenda behind. He knows I'm not an easy mislynch so he would've tried to push a wagon on me already instead of leaving me for later.

Espresso I can't recall but I think it was solely because he called me scum at the right time.

That's why LUV is scum too by the way, he townread me for my tone when there was starting to be some consensus on me being scum. That kind of "hot takes" without explanation are just to look good in case I get lynched.

That works, I don't feel like lynching PB at this point because this is pretty good and I want yo give him a chance to contribute later

so -- distancing. he's talking about how PB is scummy but shouldn't be lynched while also never putting a vote there or seriously pushing it

we all see how this is distancing yeah?

how r we doing distancing from each other? do u think they believe it?

woops wrong thread.

zzzz
VOTE: Firebringer

hops on the FB wagon at a convenient time to make sure the mislynch goes through

also why not more concern that PB -- who you were scumming -- was on that wagon

Good point.

Did Menalque post that case at all, if not at this point he should probably be lynched

yeah being lazy is a good reason to lynch someone, sure

[EspressoPatronum]

How about this: you're both town because neither of you are considering the fact that scum have day talk.

Tbf, that's a pretty easy "townslip" to fake.

[EspressoPatronum]

Gamma is town. Just read Cinnamon's ISO. RP, untunnel mode activate!

Can you point me to Cinnamon's town posts? I thought his ISO was scummy.

I agree with DP here Klick's push seems to be pretty bad. I don't think their reasons for pushing Pikachu are good at all.

We know DP is town, so here, Cinnamon took an early stance onto defending a player who was, at that time, being one of the first pushes in the game. This defense and stance looks good in retrospective thanks to new info we got.

I have a bit of an EP scumread here. Their response to 67 and not 68 kind of suggests that they're trying to get Tim on their side, or at least take the spotlight off them. While it's not scum indicative to push on lurkers it's an easy way to generate a read as scum and it also helps bring attention to other players when he's getting pushed.

Again, we know Tim is town, so another good post in retrospective, and his logic makes sense from a town PoV: "I don't like the way you're trying to derail the attention on you by calling out a lurker".

I like creature and Tim rn.

Again, Tim is town, and I'm townreading Creature.

VOTE: EspressoPatronum

I'm cool with this right now.

Consistent vote.

This is the sort of 'I'm pushing on you for lurking' without actually asking about the things that I've said that make me feel a bit uneasy about you since this type of push would be easy to do as scum.

And here and on he starts engaging with EP because of EP's scumread on him. Two things to say about this: one, is that I agree 100% with Cinnamon, the push from EP felt unfounded and if I were Cinnamon, I would've been frustrated with that push too; and two, is that if Cinnamon was scum, I think his reaction would've been different. Instead of answering with frustration everything EP said, I think he would've tried to engage with other players or at least try to look more comprehensive about EP's push on him, but that wasn't the case. He got in a 1v1 and he couldn't get out.

So there you have it, EP. I initially thought you were scum in those interactions but I changed my mind mid D1 because of your reaction of my scumread on you, and Tim had a solid townread on you so I trusted it. I think you're just plain wrong and you'll be the next lynch after Gamma flips town, so I'd rather lynch somewhere else instead of getting both of you lynched. I think that's what RP is trying to do, but then again, I don't think a scumplayer would be so vocal on doing such an obvious scum strategy. They're letting RP do the dirty job.

Thanks, @PB.

[EspressoPatronum]

Oh whups, I meant to spoiler that.

[EspressoPatronum]

@PB what are the next steps if Chemist flips town?

[EspressoPatronum]

Also, thank you EP, much appreciated. I disagree that a lot of stuff in Mena's case is alignment-indicative (particularly the parts where Gamma gets heated about non-game stuff), but based on that response I can tell that you're not solely sheeping Menalque and you've put a fair amount of your own thought into the read, which is what I was looking for.

Happy to oblige.

My conviction on Gamma isn't as strong as it was maybe a day or two ago, but I'm not sure if it's because of evidence (ie. lack of evidence against him +/ better evidence against others) or his activity. If it's the latter, I don't think it's worth getting off the wagon.

I may swap to Chemist if I see a convincing reason that Gamma v Mena won't continue into D3.

[EspressoPatronum]

So just to follow your logic: you call a 1v1 a TvT, you THINK I call a 1v1 a TvT and my argument is not original because you called a TvT first? LOL

I would have said it better if I could but the words just would not come to me, so that was the closest words to how I was feeling. Plus it pushes your buttons which is my current MO here

"iT wAs a ReAcTiOn TeSt"

[EspressoPatronum]

But the key point is that I think gamma is v likely scum.

I think that lynching him and a red flip means that you’ll start taking my creature scum read seriously

, and from there I think we prob win after lynching creature post-gamma. If we lynch him and there’s a green flip then I’ve prob been going the wrong way and we go somewhere else (like chem & ofhrz).
...

ofrhz scum

implicates creature

.

I'm seeing a Creature common thread here.

[EspressoPatronum]

But the key point is that I think gamma is v likely scum.

I think that lynching him and a red flip means that you’ll start taking my creature scum read seriously

, and from there I think we prob win after lynching creature post-gamma. If we lynch him and there’s a green flip then I’ve prob been going the wrong way and we go somewhere else (like chem & ofhrz).
...

ofrhz scum

implicates creature

.

I'm seeing a Creature common thread here.

@RP if Creature flips town, does that make ofrhz look better? If Creature flips town, does it implicate ofrhz?

@Mena if you're wrong on Creature, how would that impact your read on Gamma?

[EspressoPatronum]

But the key point is that I think gamma is v likely scum.

I think that lynching him and a red flip means that you’ll start taking my creature scum read seriously

, and from there I think we prob win after lynching creature post-gamma. If we lynch him and there’s a green flip then I’ve prob been going the wrong way and we go somewhere else (like chem & ofhrz).
...

ofrhz scum

implicates creature

.

I'm seeing a Creature common thread here.

@RP if Creature flips town, does that make ofrhz look better? If Creature flips

scum

, does it implicate ofrhz?

@Mena if you're wrong on Creature, how would that impact your read on Gamma?

EBWOP

[EspressoPatronum]

I really don’t like how hard the push has been to divert away from gamma towards ofhrz/chemist (clearly increasingly ofhrz)

On the contrary, I'm surprised by how little attention ofhrz has received all day up until this point. Even now there's an alarming amount of fighting this wagon with hardly anyone expressing a townread on him.

My ofhrz TR is pretty strong.

Can you spell out how you got such a strong TR on ofrhz? I tried looking for the answer, but a Ctrl+F of ofrhz in your ISO yields two results.

[EspressoPatronum]

The Creature in this game feels different than the Creature in Newbie 1936. I can't put my finger on it though.

1936: viewtopic.php?p=10983772&user_select%5B ... #p10983772

He's still just as active in this game, but it seems like he's producing less information compared to 1936.

[EspressoPatronum]

Not sure about offers as a wagon, will look him over for myself, as well as Chemist since those seem to be the consensus outside of me v Menalque

Following up on this. What did you come up with?

Fell asleep at my desk. Never mind, finish in the morning.

Gentle reminder on this. I know you're busy though, so take it as you will.

[EspressoPatronum]

Things seem to be slowing down. Are we waiting on anything in particular, or are we just at a standstill?

@DP, I believe we were working through a revisit on ISOs and reads. Do you think it's helpful to continue this in the down time? If so, who's next?

[EspressoPatronum]

Things seem to be slowing down. Are we waiting on anything in particular, or are we just at a standstill?

@DP, I believe we were working through a revisit on ISOs and reads. Do you think it's helpful to continue this in the down time? If so, who's next?

[EspressoPatronum]

@DP
@Gamma
@Creature

You three are not on the major wagons right now and are thus able to tip the scales one way or another. A few questions to reignite the discussion:
- What's your current read on the two wagons?
- If you had to list 3 people you'd lynch today, who would they be?
- Who do you refuse to vote for today?
- If you could pick the next focus of discussion, who would it be? Why?

Just a few questions that came to mind that might help. If you've already posted about, can you please refer me to the post?

[EspressoPatronum]

Thanks for the speedy replies, @Gamma.

What kind of parameters would you like to set for the second question? I'm assuming DP in your top 3 has something to do with said parameters.

[EspressoPatronum]

G2g, but I'll follow up tomorrow.

[EspressoPatronum]

The Creature in this game feels different than the Creature in Newbie 1936. I can't put my finger on it though.

1936: viewtopic.php?p=10983772&user_select%5B ... #p10983772

He's still just as active in this game, but it seems like he's producing less information compared to 1936.

For some reason this doesn't feel natural.

It's as like someone told EP to post this.

Like, idk where he took the "producing less info" part unless he was bullshiting.

I used "producing less info" to capture the following:
- similar posting frequency
- less town leadership
- fewer posts fleshing out reads
- more fluff*

As I said at the beginning of the post, I am struggling to put my finger on the exact difference.

*Your posts at the beginning of 1936 were pretty empty, but you stepped things up by D2. It feels like you did the opposite in this game.

[EspressoPatronum]

@Creature. I take your point on Shubbins though. This game is larger and I'm struggling to find someone as scummy as DEB in D2.

[EspressoPatronum]

I like Gamma's case on ofrhz. Gonna double check the L-x rq, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to switch my vote to that wagon.

UNVOTE:

[EspressoPatronum]

Hmm, ofrhz is at L-2 I think. I'll wait for a bit, but count me as an

unofficial Ofrhz vote.

[EspressoPatronum]

@Mod: if a town loyal PR targets scum and a watcher targets the same scum, would the watcher so the loyal PR's action?

They would. So if scumteam has a scum watcher, and they watched me and saw the visit, the same night that 'we' killed Tim, then I could theoretically fake a PT. I think you've identified just about the only scenario where I would successfully fake a neighborization, but it does require one fairly uncommon scum role and some pretty insane luck for the scum team.

I think he's asking from a town watcher perspective.

ie. Does townwatcher!Gamma see loyalneighborizer!Tim targeting scum!DP.

[EspressoPatronum]

@Mod: if a town loyal PR targets scum and a watcher targets the same scum, would the watcher so the loyal PR's action?

They would. So if scumteam has a scum watcher, and they watched me and saw the visit, the same night that 'we' killed Tim, then I could theoretically fake a PT. I think you've identified just about the only scenario where I would successfully fake a neighborization, but it does require one fairly uncommon scum role and some pretty insane luck for the scum team.

I think he's asking from a town watcher perspective.

ie. Does townwatcher!Gamma see loyalneighborizer!Tim targeting scum!DP.

But I suppose your answer doesn't change if the watcher is scum or town.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: ofrhz

One of the two gets lynched today

It's more pro-town for them to claim though if they're town, unless they want to eat the lynch

You want me to claim now or...

I agree with Creature. You can save a bad mislynch.

Worse comes to worse, you eat a NK for DP.

[EspressoPatronum]

Time for ofrhz to claim.

[EspressoPatronum]

If i die tonight lynch ofhrz tomorrow.
if ofrhz is scum lynch creature.

it doesn't matter if gamma flips town or scum.

If I'm alive I'll explain tomorrow

.

Why would you say that? Why not explain now and risk never being able to explain.

+1

[EspressoPatronum]

@Ofrhz see below

my annotations

on Gamma's case against. TL;DR: Gamma points out your hedy reads and bandwagoning.

Note - At the time of Gamma's posting (and mine, shortly thereafter), my scumread read on Gamma had softened. I honestly think part of that is an activity bias on my part, but I think he brought up some good points on you. With Gamma's recent posting, however, I'm back to being more on the fence.

I'm still leaning toward you, Ofrhz. I feel uneasy about Creature, and others (RP specifically) are saying we gain information on hip with your flip. Seems good to me.

Spoiler:

I can feel my attention span slipping so I'll just post what I have so far on offers thought wise

My name is written in invisible ink at the top of my own readslist

Why post this at all?

Ofhrz posting is rly bad.

Why? Do you townread Panda?

Just assume it's coming from town and answer it then

@_@

This whole interaction still has me dazed and confused a little but after working on it I have a small grasp, it also helps I was able to look at later posts and get some perspective

I think ofrhz is worse, their reaction to pressure felt kinda off like they didn’t really care but were acting like they did.

what

I have stuff yo say here but it probably fits better in the future Chemist ISO

Detective Pika is scum and so is gamma calling it now

uh why is gamma scum?

Tbh I get a distinct feeling offers was white knighting me to and through this post, I feel they just seem super convinced I'm town which kinda concerns me, and on top of that I recall offers voting me this day phase which makes it weirder.

This is a good catch by Gamma. It shows your posting behaviour =/= your voting behaviour.

idk I don't have that many thoughts on him

The only thing that looks interesting in his iso is that he toneread ceejay and Pink Ball town, and I'm actually not tone townreading Pink ball here, which I think I tend to do when PB is town

actually I think FB could be scum based on uhhhh gut lol

I could join you guys on Menalque

If I voted, it'd be L-1 right

This looks like a hastily planned bandwagoning attempt tbh

I don't have thoughts on that....?

Oh I think Gamma is town :3

This feels like a cop out on actually reading Cinnamon

See above re white knighting

I believe you!

This opening feels very awkward to me

Agreed

I feel better about menalque town and am cooling on gamma

Still prefer this though

VOTE: pink

Begins flipping his read on me, but votes PB. Honestly I think with how he votes me later this indicates not just offers but PB too

I've been paranoid about them since the game started but I think he's not top priority.

If we agree that lynches should be in {ofrhz, Chemist, Menalque, RedPanda} I think we're into something. And by lynches I mean not only today. Of course we revaluate if we are wrong but I think that's a solid lynch pool, because of the townbloc that is implied with that. If we lynch Chemist and he flips scum I would trade ofrhz for another player, but more into that later.

This is pretty good but let’s not lynch me first

This post seems like he wants to be under the radar but is failing, and honestly he seems to respond like this to pressure consistently.

It's like people don't understand that replacements catchup posts should not be over analyzed as scum or town. They have an advantage of no interactions and they can pick and choose what to talk about and be somewhat honest about old posts.

I both agree with this and think there was merit to pushing a narrative that Gamma was towny to encourage that level of contribution from others yesterday. Regardless of actual alignment I think Gamma's early posts were pro-town.
But now that I'm finished reading into Gamma's ISO I'm left feeling almost entirely null about him, which surprises me.

Okay no this looks like scum trying to find an excuse to walk back their town read on me

Yeah. Super hedgy.

VOTE: Klick

I also recently came around to scumreading your slot, but you didn’t mention that in your catchup. Can you talk about why you treated my slot differently from Klick’s?

What's interesting is at this point I'd say offers' read flip on me makes less sense than Klick's

VOTE: gamma

I agree with PB's 1652 that this vote comes at a time that makes it rather scummy

Agreed. Looks like you hopped on the bandwagon. Your read transition from town!gamma to null!gamma to scum!gamma aligns with this.

[EspressoPatronum]

I was waiting for some discussion and the Ofrhz claim before voting.
VOTE: Ofrhz

L-1

[EspressoPatronum]

So I decided to look at EP's meta in a game we just played together and it's drawing my attention to a few things from earlier I find possibly relevant, so I'd like to request no hammers for a few hours

Newbie 1936 is my other game on site. It's worth checking out both if you want a read on my game style.

[EspressoPatronum]

Hmm, ofrhz is at L-2 I think. I'll wait for a bit, but count me as an

unofficial Ofrhz vote.

Did Gamma claim?

Ugh

The ofrhz wagon is pretty tempting too though

ofrhz also dodged claiming I assume?

Time for ofrhz to claim.

This is objectively anti-town

Shouldn’t be pushing for a claim before L-1

I’m willing to give EP benefit of the doubt because I’m mostly TRing him

But creature definitely knows this and did it anyway

It was an unofficial L-1.

[EspressoPatronum]

PB, are you there?

[EspressoPatronum]

You seem pretty on the fence about Gamma and ofrhz. Swap to ofrhz... if it goes south, I'll put Gamma back on the top of my list.

[EspressoPatronum]

Meanwhile, over in PB's iso....

Let's lynch Gamma boys. Even if we're wrong, we lynch ofrhz tomorrow. This VC seems to be that we have a scum wagon and a counterwagon, so let's do it

Can I get a promise from all the ofrhz voters to vote Gamma tomorrow if ofrhz flips town?

ofrhz will you hate me if I hammer you?

Now, I know that this posts will look awful if ofrhz flips scum, but whatever

I won't lynch ofrhz yet 'cause maybe Pine and Elements join us and Gamma gets lynched

[EspressoPatronum]

Those don't look like town reads on ofhrz. They're admittedly cherry-picked quotes, but I don't see how PB can say he's not at least a little bit on the fence about this.

Even if he wants Gamma gone, he's happy with ofrhz tomorrow.

[EspressoPatronum]

Those don't look like town reads on ofhrz. They're admittedly cherry-picked quotes, but I don't see how PB can say he's not at least a little bit on the fence about this.

Even if he wants Gamma gone, he's happy with ofrhz tomorrow.

Don't cherry pick as Town, and don't admit to doing it as scum unless called on it (and then only in a shame-faced kind of way). Cherry-picking means intentionally ignoring contrary evidence, which is distinctly not Town.

See my 1947 post and PB's reply at 1949 for context.

[EspressoPatronum]

You guys are taking me waaaaay too literal. I unvoted ofrhz long time ago and I'm voting Gamma when both are at L-1,

I think that's enough info on who I'm scumreading and who I'm townreading

. EP, what you're quoting is use of rethorics for getting Gamma lynched now, not tomorrow.

Your ISO didn't make this clear at all... it just looks like you have two scum reads and you want one gone more than the other.

Can you post your reads list please?

[EspressoPatronum]

You guys are taking me waaaaay too literal. I unvoted ofrhz long time ago and I'm voting Gamma when both are at L-1,

I think that's enough info on who I'm scumreading and who I'm townreading

. EP, what you're quoting is use of rethorics for getting Gamma lynched now, not tomorrow.

Your ISO didn't make this clear at all... it just looks like you have two scum reads and you want one gone more than the other.

Can you post your reads list please?

I won't lynch ofrhz

yet

'cause

maybe

Pine and Elements join us and Gamma gets lynched

I don't care

, as long as we get a red flip before flipping me

p-edit: let's get

those lynches

first so instead of an hypothetic question I can answer it as a real question. It

could be RP

for the whole "he's not scum because of day talk", seemed like a cheap LAMIST thing.

I'm pretty sure my three preferences are very clear in this two posts before you stated that it looks like I'm fencesitting.

This is not "very clear" and it doesn't cover everyone in the game.

Can you just post your full reads list? It's not that hard.

[EspressoPatronum]

Gamma's increased engagement seems town to me.

Thank you for the reads list btw, @PB.

[EspressoPatronum]

Who all has agreed in some way with Menalque's case on me/Cinnamon in some way? I get the feeling it's quite a lot

Reminder that I asked this to people who actually give a fuck

1552
The post is a bit dated bcz it isn't you v Men anymore, but those were my notes on Mena's case.

[EspressoPatronum]

I don't understand that NK at all, lol.

DP was an obv kill + PB had mislynch potential.

[EspressoPatronum]

This is an interesting kill. I can't tell if it's mafia killing off people who have guessed them correctly or mafia killing pink ball to make us think he had good reads. I'm leaning towards the later because it would make us think that. I'm leaning towards the latter as he was a possible mislynch.
so
VOTE: RedPanda

Agreed. His top 3 were Gamma, Creature, RP.

VOTE: RedPanda

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: RedPanda

VOTE: RedPanda

VOTE: RedPanda

crackle

[EspressoPatronum]

Umm.

Holding off on a RP vote because he's at L-1 already. Need to give possible investigatives a chance to check in at bare minimum.

He’s confirmed Town

99.9% confirmed town*

[EspressoPatronum]

Disregard the top half of that quote btw. I forgot I had it saved.

[EspressoPatronum]

Umm.

Holding off on a RP vote because he's at L-1 already. Need to give possible investigatives a chance to check in at bare minimum.

He’s confirmed Town

99.9% confirmed town*

Nah there's like no chance DP is scum here imo

The .1% captures the "like no chance [but still an extremely remote possibility]."

[EspressoPatronum]

Thanks, Skygazer!

Have fun on your trip, Micc!

[EspressoPatronum]

RP seems genuine.

I'm fine with Creature or Chemist today.

[EspressoPatronum]

UNVOTE:

Gamma was pretty hard town by the end of D2. Mena, I think you're town but you're stuck tunneling on Gamma.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: Chemist

[EspressoPatronum]

RP seems genuine.

I'm fine with Creature or Chemist today.

but Pine...

I think you started the Pine wagon in an attempt to appear as proactive town. After all, nobody can call you out for bandwagoning if you start your own.

[EspressoPatronum]

Hey Pine

Are you aware DP claims to have been neighborized by Tim Goodman?

hmmm

VOTE: Pine

Is this your only reason for scumreading Pine?

[EspressoPatronum]

Probably we have Pine scum.

Pine + Elements + RedPanda?

or maybe it's just Menalque + Pine + someone somewhat obvious and we're all fucking around.

You're gonna have to work hard to explain Pine scum btw

He has been on the sidelines all game?

Expressing a read =/= a reason for a read.

Thus far, your Pine SR seems based on:
1. His sideline play
2. His DP scumread
3. ?

[EspressoPatronum]

As much as I appreciate the whiteknighting, relax. Creature is Town.

I could see an EP lynch too. His views seem super flexible, and almost eagerly conforming.

I'm not defending your towniness, I'm questioning how he got his scumread of you.

Why do you think Creature is town?

[EspressoPatronum]

This is a very inactive game. Could mean scum are happy with where it's headed and we need to seriously rethink everything

Agreed. Assuming town!Gamma, that would also explain why yesterday hit a bit of a lull once both wagons built up. Scum knew it was tvt and just coasted. This aligns with RP's observation that Creature coasted in the second half of D2.

Because he bleeds Town

Can you stop just asserting this and actually explain it

Creature has done fuck all this game

How is that bleeding town

Agreed. I don't see town!creature here. I'd like someone to lay it all out.

[EspressoPatronum]

Probably we have Pine scum.

Pine + Elements + RedPanda?

or maybe it's just Menalque + Pine + someone somewhat obvious and we're all fucking around.

You're gonna have to work hard to explain Pine scum btw

He has been on the sidelines all game?

Expressing a read =/= a reason for a read.

Thus far, your Pine SR seems based on:
1. His sideline play
2. His DP scumread
3. ?

Pine cut in and derailed the conversation before Creature could respond.

Creature didn't have a convincing answer for his Pine SR.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: Creature

[EspressoPatronum]

This is a very inactive game. Could mean scum are happy with where it's headed and we need to seriously rethink everything

I do not support a Creature wagon or lynch. RP or Chemist are my preferred for today. I think the third is in {GEmerald, EP} and I’m starting to lean towards EP.

@Pine, how do respond to Elements' observation? Do you think the RP and Chemist wagons are too easy?

[EspressoPatronum]

Same question to DP, as he evidently doesn't like my Creature read.

[EspressoPatronum]

@elements I could do that I think

But I still think I’d like gamma first maybe? I’m not sure

Feel like gamma!town would be an easy mislynch in the case of creature!town, and I don’t wanna have to make that decision in lylo

I’d rather go gamma today I think as I think there’s more information there

What information do we get from a Gamma lynch that we don't get from a Creature lynch?

One of the main selling points of lynching Gamma for me was to get info on your alignment. Your crusade convinced me you're town. Gamma's resolve in the Mena v Gamma and ofrhz v Gamma convinced me he's town.

[EspressoPatronum]

Same question to DP, as he evidently doesn't like my Creature read.

I just wanna lynch anyone that scumreads my townreads at this point tbh

Why? We need to be lynching scum

Just because someone disagrees with you on a read doesn’t make them scum

+1.

@DP as our town clear, we really need you to be a bit more proactive than that.

[EspressoPatronum]

Also interesting that your assessment of creature scum is lurks and snipes

which is p much what he’s doing here (suddenly appears when suspicion might be coming his way)

while dropping out shade as he goes

Agreed.

If Creature is scum, I could see Pine scum, too. It could help explain Pine's defence of Creature.

[EspressoPatronum]

Yeah but we're not lynching creature because you dislike his playstyle we're lynching scum or at worst probable scum

Creature's reads as town are some of the strongest on site and

as scum he busses heavily

so there's no reason to not go with his reads even if you scumread him when we have 0 redflips

Interesting. This could change things.

[EspressoPatronum]

Given DP's info on Creature's busing habits, Chemist looks great today.

Either town!Creature has a good read or scum!Creature is busing. It'll also help us cut a lurker before lylo.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: Chemist

[EspressoPatronum]

Ellitell?

What does this mean?

[EspressoPatronum]

Ellitell?

Yeah what

If you're town, can you do something plz?

[EspressoPatronum]

Oh right, I didn't realize it was L-2 when I voted.

Chemist is at L-1

[EspressoPatronum]

Spoiler:

Probably we have Pine scum.

Pine + Elements + RedPanda?

or maybe it's just Menalque + Pine + someone somewhat obvious and we're all fucking around.

You're gonna have to work hard to explain Pine scum btw

He has been on the sidelines all game?

Expressing a read =/= a reason for a read.

Thus far, your Pine SR seems based on:
1. His sideline play
2. His DP scumread
3. ?

Pine cut in and derailed the conversation before Creature could respond.

Creature didn't have a convincing answer for his Pine SR.

VOTE: Creature

Do you think this development implicates Pine if Creature flips scum?

It's possible. DP says Creature likes bussing, so a [Creature, Chemist, Pine] team seems plausible.

Fyi this doesn't mean I'm quite ready to attempt to solve the game yet, that's going to be tomorrow

What are your quick thoughts on Chemist? His wagon is at L-2 rn, so it'd be best to say something now in case he gets hammered.

[EspressoPatronum]

Actually I agree

VOTE: Chemist

At worst we lynch a potential LyLo liability

Why are we lynching LyLo liabilities at this stage of the game?

Pretty sure tomorrow is lylo if we don't hit scum today.

[EspressoPatronum]

HOW DO WE SOLVE THIS GAME?

That should have been bigger tbh

Is anyone online?

no

We can start by lynching the person who won't contribute anything tomorrow. He also happens to be scummy.

[EspressoPatronum]

You can sell us on chemist if you want

I'm not sure how to read chemist. He just wagon hops to whatever lynch the townleader wants. He did it to tim day1 and he did it to me day2 and it made me townread him.

Have you developed more of a read on Chemist since then? What is your opinion on the ellitell?

Because I don't get your creature read even using your own standards.
...

Vote Pine

Pine is just scum.

Pine is calling creature town because he's scum who knows creature is town or they are buddies and right now I'm leaning towards the former.

I could see this. I'll join you in a Pine push tomorrow if you join me on Chemist today.

[EspressoPatronum]

I could lynch chem

But I want gamma

Partly because I’m lazy and I have ideas on the implications of scum!gamma and town!gamma
...
Partly because of everything I’ve pointed out about gamma

You've raised some good points on Gamma so far, but I think you're overlooking his towny reactions to being pushed twice. Aside from the PB argument, he was pretty calm through the whole thing. He also actively contributed to scum hunting even when it looked like he was going to get lynched.

Compare that to Chemist, who's gone full troll mode in response to his push.

The difference is night and day.

[EspressoPatronum]

I would join in a Pine vote today.

I'd like to give Mena some time to get out of the Gamma tunnel.

[EspressoPatronum]

I was put at L-1 today. I think you could glean a lot of info on my wagon if you townread me.

...
Seriously - does ANYONE have a Townread on Chemist? Red Panda?
...

The speed of RP's wagon forming makes me think at least 1 scum would have been involved. Seeing Chemist flip would help sort that, in addition to the other benefits of a Chemist lynch (lylo liability, bandwagoning, ellitell)

I don't see scum bussing so early in the day. If Chemist flips scum, RP is likely town.

[EspressoPatronum]

I was put at L-1 today. I think you could glean a lot of info on my wagon if you townread me.

...
Seriously - does ANYONE have a Townread on Chemist? Red Panda?
...

The speed of RP's wagon forming makes me think at least 1 scum would have been involved. Seeing Chemist flip would help sort that, in addition to the other benefits of a Chemist lynch (lylo liability, bandwagoning, ellitell)

I don't see scum bussing so early in the day. If Chemist flips scum, RP is likely town.

Whoa hold up. Your assertion is blatantly bullshit. It discounts the possibility of a planned bus, which is nonsense.

VOTE: EspressoPatronum

I think I want to see this flip. All due respect to GEmerald, I’ve heard one too many things I can’t justify from an honest Town perspective

So you're telling me scum planned to bus RP and leave him at a hammer for almost an hour? Assuming what you're saying is true, that means both scum were on the wagon... that leaves scum!RP vulnerable to the whims of every other town.

That's an incredibly risky plan for very little reward. Your call-out doesn't make sense.

[EspressoPatronum]

unvote vote chemist

Is this an unvote or a vote for Chemist?

[EspressoPatronum]

I was put at L-1 today. I think you could glean a lot of info on my wagon if you townread me.

...
Seriously - does ANYONE have a Townread on Chemist? Red Panda?
...

The speed of RP's wagon forming makes me think at least 1 scum would have been involved. Seeing Chemist flip would help sort that, in addition to the other benefits of a Chemist lynch (lylo liability, bandwagoning, ellitell)

I don't see scum bussing so early in the day. If Chemist flips scum, RP is likely town.

Whoa hold up. Your assertion is blatantly bullshit. It discounts the possibility of a planned bus, which is nonsense.

VOTE: EspressoPatronum

I think I want to see this flip. All due respect to GEmerald, I’ve heard one too many things I can’t justify from an honest Town perspective

So you're telling me scum planned to bus RP and leave him at a hammer for almost an hour? Assuming what you're saying is true, that means both scum were on the wagon... that leaves scum!RP vulnerable to the whims of every other town.

That's an incredibly risky plan for very little reward. Your call-out doesn't make sense.

That is an incredibly bullshit interpretation of what I said.

Your version is that RP’s wagon must be entirely TvS, while ignoring the possibility that one of the votes might be a planned bus. There is in fact a middle ground between “everyone on RP is Town” and “the entire scumteam bussed”

See, this kind of nonsense opinion doesn’t come from Town

"The speed of RP's wagon forming makes me think at least 1 scum would have been involved" was part of my first post. You critiqued me for not considering a "planned bus" (ie. scum plan to bus their scum partner). I then addressed your point re a scum bus and you came back by critiquing me AGAIN using the same kind of reasoning by saying there's a middle ground between all scum on the wagon and no scum on the wagon. I'm no scientist, but I'd say "at least 1 scum would have been involved" is a pretty middle ground guess.

Are you even reading my posts, or are you just being contrarian for the sake of it?

[EspressoPatronum]

It looks like Pine is trying to find an excuse to scumread me. This feels too forced.

[EspressoPatronum]

If Pine used his own reasoning, Chemist would be a perfect vote.

If RP is town, the speed of the RP wagon is scary + i want to lynch one of those voters. Chemist's vote put RP at L-1, so I'd consider it more serious than the earlier votes.
If RP is scum and scum bussed him, Chemist was the first to back down from the wagon, relieving RP of a hammer threat.

Pine claims to be aware of these possibilities (and more, judging by his callouts), and yet his vote is on me. I'm guessing Pine wants to keep Chemist alive. He's been scumreading Chemist for a while now, but the moment we actually get serious about the wagon, he decided to vote RP and/or me.

Scum reads (in order)
Chemist
Pine
Elements/Creature/Mena

[EspressoPatronum]

I'm a bit less paranoid of a scum!Creature possibility now. As you can see from my reads listed above, I'm working on sorting the last scum slot.

[EspressoPatronum]

Everyone has evidently forgotten how scummy Pine was yesterday

[EspressoPatronum]

I'll lynch Pine or Mena today. Preference on Pine

[EspressoPatronum]

Sure. As long as you check Pine while you're at it.

[EspressoPatronum]

Everyone has evidently forgotten how scummy Pine was yesterday

Oh yeah, I forgot. Pushing a successful scum lynch for two days makes me scummy these days.

Please. You only started scumreading me when I got serious about suspecting you.

I already made my case on you. You appeared to be pushing Chemist up until it actually got serious. At that point, the EP and RP wagons magically looked way better.

Scum!Pine hammers Chemist to take some heat off the next day. Town!Pine hammers Chemist bcz Chemist was obv!scum. I'm not treating your hammer as AI, so I'm looking instead at your behaviour leading up to it.

[EspressoPatronum]

Seems we're losing momentum here.

VOTE: Pine

[EspressoPatronum]

Get off Gamma

[EspressoPatronum]

Give him time to respond

[EspressoPatronum]

I'm at work and can't post a lot. Get him out of hammer range!!

[EspressoPatronum]

...
Maybe I'm misreading [Gamma]. But why is my gut on him wrong? Why is he better today than ep/rp/mena?

He isn't. Scum probably picked Gamma because they thought he'd be an easy lunch with Mena's tunneling.

Mena's out of the tunnel, so now they're trying to rope you in.

[EspressoPatronum]

If scum points out something I've noticed should I consider that evidence for or against the person doing the noticed thing scum

It's unlikely to be bussing at this point, so is say evidence against

[EspressoPatronum]

If scum points out something I've noticed should I consider that evidence for or against the person doing the noticed thing scum

It's unlikely to be bussing at this point, so I'd say evidence against.

EBWOP

[EspressoPatronum]

@Mena
@DP

Plz no lolhammers. Declare intent if you have it and give it a few hours.

[EspressoPatronum]

I voted for chemist only because of EP. I doubt he's scum.

I've got it down to Pine, Mena|you.

Assuming you're town, go with me one more time on either Pine or Mena.

[EspressoPatronum]

Please get off the Gamma wagon. I'm heading to work and don't want to risk it while he's in hammer range, so here goes....

I've been in a hood with Gamma since D3.

[EspressoPatronum]

Obv!scum Pine surfaces again. Go look at Tim's flip and tell me hoods don't matter.

[EspressoPatronum]

Either I'll explain after work or Gamma will come in and explain some time today.

[EspressoPatronum]

I am the even-night loyal neighborizer. I crumbed it in my second post.

VOTE: RedPanda Tim and DP run a democracy here at Poke City. There's no room in this neighborhood for your unilateral declarations.

Creature asked me about this after Tim's flip and DP posted something to the effect of, "did EP just soft neighborizer?" I ignored the question in the (successful) hopes of having the scum forget about me.

I left my claim ambiguous because Gamma and I discussed the possibility of him claiming neighborizer in the hopes of eating the inevitable roleblocked* and/or NK. I left it to him to make the decision.

I'm off work in about an hour or so. I'll type up my reasoning on choosing Gamma and address any other questions.

*I'm almost certain scum has a roleblocker.