Large Normal 221 - Endgame

[LuckyOtter]

@ofrhz I'm never a high post count person. But I've tried through my posts to either push somewhere or clarify my positions. Don't try to paint me as not having done anything. There are so many ppl on this site that do nearly nothing but post fluff or lurk and post a one liner and everyone's just fine with it. That's where my frustration is coming from.

Would you say that you've been more disengaged from this game than your usual towngame?

I know you're not a high post count person, but comparing to your recent towngames, you seem slightly less engaged and less aggressive. Your post count is lower than usual

Again I think post count is a bad metric, but yeah I've been less engaged here. I think if I had rolled anything other than VT I'd have taken this more seriously. I've tried to engage when I can in small bursts. I've tried to make it at least somewhat meaningful, then I get people like you saying well gee he just doesn't have that many posts. So then it's like why bother. Maybe I'll just make a NM-style alt next time I play.

[LuckyOtter]

I straight up townread Eyes, nom, and red

Lucky is meh mainly because their posts are a chore to get through

2. The above doesn't jibe with what you've just said about me

What do you mean?

You also said I've barely done anything all game. So are my posts a chore or empty? Or if you think my posts are fluff you should explain better why

[ofrhz]

Your posts were a chore to read when you were catching up d2. They haven’t been since

[ofrhz]

You haven’t done anything since flat out saying there’s one scum in me/kirari and I think we both have more content since then that you can engage us with

[ofrhz]

I'm VT

Nom, do you think Otter should be townreading you right now?

That's an odd question. I don't really think about how people should be reading me honestly. Can I ask why you're asking this?

I would suspect Otter to be more suspicious of you generally because he lost to scum!you in Micro 871. I would expect him to have more concrete reasons to be townreading you. I think his progression on you this game hasn't been entirely clear and wanted to know what you thought of it.

I believe I already said I'm very paranoid about nom now, and that hasn't changed. I also said I could potentially see nom as SK, although honestly I haven't thought that through entirely. Purely tone-wise, there were a few moments from nom that pinged a bit fake to me, in a similar way as in the micro game, but overall nom just doesn't feel as *in control* as in the micro. If nom were groupscum and rolled scum with creature and red, I would think nom would be playing more confidently right now. Some of the game-solvey set-up spec fits in here, but I don't think it's quite the same.

You said you could see nom as SK but not groupscum

I feel like that’s akin to saying you townread nom, since we have kk saying there’s a vig

Unless you meant you think nom can be traitor?

[Vorkuta]

Again I think post count is a bad metric, but yeah I've been less engaged here. I think if I had rolled anything other than VT I'd have taken this more seriously. I've tried to engage when I can in small bursts. I've tried to make it at least somewhat meaningful, then I get people like you saying well gee he just doesn't have that many posts. So then it's like why bother. Maybe I'll just make a NM-style alt next time I play.

Are you me?

not claiming anything in here lel

I can genuinely sympathize with this enough to go nom x3

[LuckyOtter]

I still think otter is more towny than not though he is going down the rabbit hole of “scum would do this”

And when did your read of me change? After I started scumreading you? Because I see literally zero progression between this and

Probably prefer to lynch otter, vork, then deas

I should put more effort in this game though. Soon TM

(Over the weekend)

Again, if you were actually reading my posts to determine my alignment, I feel like you would've realized that 2036 is in direct reply to 2035 where Kirari asks me to list which of you, Vork, and DV I prefer to lynch

I said you were more towny than not but on balance I don't think you're townier than either Vork or DV

I know that you were responding to Kirari, but what I'm saying is that I don't see any progression of me going from "more towny" in 1748 to first in line in your scum list in 2036, looking through your ISO. Don't accuse me of not reading your posts.

[ofrhz]

That wasn’t a scum list? That was me listing the three people in the lynch order I prefer

I think both vork and dv are townier than you. Idk how I could possibly explain this better

[LuckyOtter]

I'm VT

Nom, do you think Otter should be townreading you right now?

That's an odd question. I don't really think about how people should be reading me honestly. Can I ask why you're asking this?

I would suspect Otter to be more suspicious of you generally because he lost to scum!you in Micro 871. I would expect him to have more concrete reasons to be townreading you. I think his progression on you this game hasn't been entirely clear and wanted to know what you thought of it.

I believe I already said I'm very paranoid about nom now, and that hasn't changed. I also said I could potentially see nom as SK, although honestly I haven't thought that through entirely. Purely tone-wise, there were a few moments from nom that pinged a bit fake to me, in a similar way as in the micro game, but overall nom just doesn't feel as *in control* as in the micro. If nom were groupscum and rolled scum with creature and red, I would think nom would be playing more confidently right now. Some of the game-solvey set-up spec fits in here, but I don't think it's quite the same.

You said you could see nom as SK but not groupscum

I feel like that’s akin to saying you townread nom, since we have kk saying there’s a vig

Unless you meant you think nom can be traitor?

I honestly got lost in the set-up spec discussion. Maybe traitor. I'd have to sift through and see if it makes sense and that's not happening today unless nom is really the only other lynch option.

[LuckyOtter]

That wasn’t a scum list? That was me listing the three people in the lynch order I prefer

I think both vork and dv are townier than you. Idk how I could possibly explain this better

Ugh. Ok. That's fair

[LuckyOtter]

I'd like to also say that you have pushed me both as a SK and a traitor even though these two roles would approach the game radically differently so I can say with confidence that yes, you are reaching and I have trouble discerning if you are a bad townie or a traitor if KK isn't lying.

Can you say more about how the approaches would be different? There's a sort of independence to both, no?

[LuckyOtter]

I think she could be groupscum because I can see how her vote on rf was a bus

I uhhh didn’t get the sk argument

can you expand on this because if nom can be groupscum in addition to SK I'd definitely want to go there today

It was mostly that she shaded Red but never actually pushed there until the EOD wagon

Also I feel like scum would’ve detected their partner going down and jumped on for town cred, so I was looking at the rf wagon. Everyone else on that wagon is more town

Am I missing something or is this the bulk of your scum!nom case?

[ofrhz]

I also didn’t like her reaction to KK’s informed claim

[ofrhz]

Ftr I’m not really trying to groupscum case nom. I think she can be groupscum or not

I feel like my post didn’t make that clear

[LuckyOtter]

I guess I massively misunderstood what a traitor is.

Nom makes less sense as traitor as say, Vork or DV, since they both avoided the Red lynch and nom didn't.

If the object of the traitor is to signal themselves to the scumteam, Vork makes more sense than DV. DV plays too try-hard to make sense in this role, and his play doesn't make sense to me as groupscum either.

Vork traitor might make sense. His play's been different here and he's drawn attention to it. He might actually think I'm scum right here and is trying to signal me/move the wagon elsewhere.

Current guess is ofrhz groupscum, Vork traitor, assuming that's the setup.

[ofrhz]

Vork traitor might make sense. His play's been different here and he's drawn attention to it. He might actually think I'm scum right here and is trying to signal me/move the wagon elsewhere.

Shouldn't traitors know who groupscum are?

[ofrhz]

What did you think a traitor was?

[Vorkuta]

Vork traitor might make sense. His play's been different here and he's drawn attention to it. He might actually think I'm scum right here and is trying to signal me/move the wagon elsewhere.

[LuckyOtter]

Vork traitor might make sense. His play's been different here and he's drawn attention to it. He might actually think I'm scum right here and is trying to signal me/move the wagon elsewhere.

Shouldn't traitors know who groupscum are?

Ok, in a normal, yes. So I don't know what he's doing vis a vis me (maybe you're just being nice, Vork, appreciated if so), but the traitor still needs to signal their status to the groupscum. I still don't see DV or nom in this role.

Intuitively, I just imagined "traitor" was some variant of a SK.

[Vorkuta]

but the traitor still needs to signal their status to the groupscum

Where was I allegedly doing this?

And once again

C9++ is a traitor game of mine- way more activity and signaling & crumbing to home base.

As traitor I crumb and try to reach out to homebase (C9++)

I'm pretty damn sure I haven't done anything resembling that in this game.

[ofrhz]

KK does your analysis above make you think we should massclaim today or tomorrow?

Tomorrow probably.

I'll drop a nugget of info though. I have an informed role and I know who the other vig is.

So given that I can see no SK kills over the first 3 nights. I'm gonna squelch the idea that there is an SK and I guess confirm that it must be a traitor.

So basically you didn't understand the implications of this post?

[ofrhz]

Otter could plausibly not know what a traitor is, never having played in a game with one. Makes him less likely to be scum if true

That would mean he didn't understand a good 5-10 pages of this game though and never once asked for clarification lol

[LuckyOtter]

I obviously haven't thought this through, it just seems more likely from VCA. But if I look back at earlier posts I feel like there's some possible communication going on with Creature.

Right
Montosh probably has a naturally scummy playstyle for which I'm willing to give him a bit of leeway- not my pref. D1.

@LUV
My Creature vote is because
-Creature is due to roll scum against me some time soon
-I rely quite a bit on others telling me that "this is a scum!creature post" because apparently he's obvious as either alignment. Hopefully with pressure he obv!somethings and we can move on.
-Look at his ISO and tell me you don't want to roll your eyes at him

He plays scum very seriously when it's time to be serious and not seriously whenever the opportunity to troll
or
"8/10, best scum teammate (out of 3) I've ever had"
-Vork

At any rate, I'm not really interested in traitor-hunting until groupscum is caught and we know for sure we're dealing with a traitor.

[nomnomnom]

I'd like to also say that you have pushed me both as a SK and a traitor even though these two roles would approach the game radically differently so I can say with confidence that yes, you are reaching and I have trouble discerning if you are a bad townie or a traitor if KK isn't lying.

Can you say more about how the approaches would be different? There's a sort of independence to both, no?

You do not approach the two roles the same way at all. This is my experience from chat mafia so it might differ from a longer site like this but this is what I think about the two roles.

A traitor is not independant because they are still playing for a larger faction and they need to redirect the heat that are on their partners on themselves. I consider it like a half-jester role if that makes sense. Obviously your aim is not to get lynched but if you redirect attention on yourself instead of your groupscum partners, and if you manage to get a maximum of townies lynched before town lynches you for being a bad townie, then you've done your job.

In contrast as SK you do NOT want attention on yourself from either teams. SK is much harder to play than traitor because you need to carefully tone your actions between "too useful" and "not useful enough". If you go either way you risk losing the game because townies will consider you too scummy or scums will consider you unlynchable. You need to play a much tighter game and that's why people consider it a much harder role to play.

Obviously this is only theory and you'll have people trying to subvert expectations but these are two clear archetypes to look for and they're very different type of people to track for, which is why I give a lot of important to KK's claim being true.

[Vorkuta]

In post 408, Vorkuta wrote:
He plays scum very seriously when it's time to be serious and not seriously whenever the opportunity to troll
or
"8/10, best scum teammate (out of 3) I've ever had"
-Vork

Probably broke quotes but whatever

This was @Alchemist
I've never played with scum!creature before.