Open 762: CK9++ [Over!]

[implosion]

why hello there

[implosion]

VOTE: Persivul

[implosion]

implosion, your name sounds familiar have I played with you before?

Maybe. Not sure.

[implosion]

Gamma is town.

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VOTE: Phillammon

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phil is basically guaranteed to either be scum or towntell very hard very quickly when put under pressure so let's go friends

[implosion]

phil is basically guaranteed to either be scum or towntell very hard very quickly when put under pressure so let's go friends

What Meta Gives You Such An Impression

None?

For me, it’s somewhere in the north, where you get decent snow. Nebraska, maybe?

This is *remarkably* unspecific.

[implosion]

Anyway.

Town:
Gamma
James
Jackal

[implosion]

A brief search suggests you do this every game, but I still don't like that at all.

So you're voting for James because you dislike him, rather than having any reason to believe that he's scum whatsoever?

That's kinda rude.

[implosion]

Got any reads?

[implosion]

Unvote

VOTE: Sakura Hana

[implosion]

phil is basically guaranteed to either be scum or towntell very hard very quickly when put under pressure so let's go friends

Does that work when you announce that's what you're doing?

Yes! Technology is genuinely incredible.

phil is basically guaranteed to either be scum or towntell very hard very quickly when put under pressure so let's go friends

What Meta Gives You Such An Impression

None?

So you're just guessing?

No? Not everything has to be based in meta. Things can be based in an impression of someone's personality that I got from like two posts.

[implosion]

To those who have an issue: I understand your concern, but I promise there is a very good reason for this. Let’s just say I’m trying to change the game so to speak.

Sure then. I'm confident whatever analysis you have in store for this is significantly less interesting than you probably think it is, and this sentence from you actually invalidates my townread on you a bit for reasons that I'm never going to explain because they're silly, but:

There's no specific place that I would strongly want to live, but I've come to like California in general.

I think it's too soon to lean town on James for that.

But why Jackal?

What do you mean, why Jackal? He's simply self-evidently obvtown.

The fact that you’re still trying to force me to 1v1 with you is major scum points though.

This is a weird reaction.

[implosion]

So on the last page Phil comes off as very town. E.g., 62-64 is a good reaction. James comes off more strongly as giving off his personality than giving anything useful for reading him, which is a bit annoying. James is spending paragraphs talking about how RVS is inferior, which is basically spending paragraphs talking about nothing. Post 72 is such an absurd way to use logic. It's just not useful. It's like he's framing it as a formal logical argument to show he can, and then the flaw that he points out in the way that he's formalizing it isn't even the actual flaw in the argument, it's just a premise that he disagrees with (the actual flaw being that the argument all A are B, C is not A, therefore C is not B being invalid).

So James.

Without talking about RVS because I think you and I both agree it's a deeply uninteresting thing, and without talking about how anyone's logic is bad (because bad logic is perhaps the least accurate "scumtell" in history), is there any actual reason Phil's posting is more likely to come from scum than from town?

[implosion]

As for real scumreads:

I actually really strongly dislike Skellen's two posts so far. It reads like scum who opened the thread, saw James's question and said "oh sure, I can answer that", then continued reading the thread looking for something to respond to, saw my post with my random-ass townreads, and went "oh sure, I can give a response to this."

Sakura I actually thought calling James town was very out-of-nowhere scummy but then I saw that she actually asked him a question so it's fine. I'd like to hear more from her than just choosing one specific thing (James calling a vote opportunistic) to engage directly with.

Persivul could very easily be scum. If he is then James is almost certainly town.

I kind of do think James is town after a few more moments of pondering but I don't feel strongly about it.

[implosion]

oh my god i'm dumb

[implosion]

Having conflicting reads about James right now.

As in, conflicting with yourself or conflicting with the people that are townreading him?

[implosion]

well given that it's not a universal townread on him by any means i guess i should

assume the former

(p-edit have assumed the former) but etc. And I can definitely understand internal conflict on James. I think he is much more strongly showing a personality than anything alignment indicative through his posting so far, and I'd like it if he could (if town) make an effort to rectify that.

[implosion]

Oh i read the ic declarative post i just immediately forgot it existed.

Do you know Gamma's meta, Phil? He's an awkward person to read in the absence of meta.

[implosion]

And now I’ve made clear the validity of my points,

This is not how argumentation works.

You don't get to make points in the format of a formal logical argument and magically have them be "valid" and win the argument. Other people just see it as another level of arguing back and forth.

[implosion]

VOTE: Chemist1422

[implosion]

axia

axises

[implosion]

Unvote. Vote: implosion.

Naked votes are more likely to come from scum in my experience.

In other news I wish Persivul didn't spill the beans so soon about our Innocent Child. Should of let more information and hilarity ensue.

I was sheeping you

[implosion]

So on the last page Phil comes off as very town. E.g., 62-64 is a good reaction.

I'd like some explanation on that, it gave me the opposite impression (i.e. he looked for the easiest thing to latch on to (the person going against the regular flow of mafia))

Less about content, more about tone/timing/looking like a genuine interaction with the thread. Though I can see what you're saying but he's town in various places not just those posts

James comes off more strongly as giving off his personality than giving anything useful for reading him, which is a bit annoying. James is spending paragraphs talking about how RVS is inferior, which is basically spending paragraphs talking about nothing. Post 72 is such an absurd way to use logic. It's just not useful. It's like he's framing it as a formal logical argument to show he can, and then the flaw that he points out in the way that he's formalizing it isn't even the actual flaw in the argument, it's just a premise that he disagrees with (the actual flaw being that the argument all A are B, C is not A, therefore C is not B being invalid).

I cant even understand this paragraph.
I thought the point was that his "lack of RVS" has gotten us out of RVS.

The point I'm making is that talking about how to get out of RVS is a really pointless conversation and having this strong notion that we are in RVS and need to get out of it as fast as possible is silly because every post has some amount of readable information at every point in the game, etc.

The other point is that he's misusing the concept of logic.

[implosion]

I think Drew and Persivul are actually both decent scum candidates.

[implosion]

So Phillammom, you seem odd... your ISO isnt the best

That said oh man i didn't notice this until now, this post is pretty bad

[implosion]

Actually I take back that drew is a good shot for scum. Persivul and thespio are. Persivul's depth of interaction with the game is pretty lacking so far. His questions and such are kind of surface level blasé observations.

[implosion]

Why thespio though

did you *see* post 151???

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The content of 151 isn't the problem, it's the tone, the phrasing and above all the *aggressive* tepidness.

[implosion]

Both these posts objectively suck.

You really have a strong propensity for being absolutist when there's no reason to

[implosion]

Implosion, I get the feeling that that's not an indicator of any alignment, is all, and is just how James functions.


...which can be said for nearly everything they have said this game.

Didn't mean to insinuate that it was alignment-indicative.

Spoiler:

phil is basically guaranteed to either be scum or towntell very hard very quickly when put under pressure so let's go friends

Does that work when you announce that's what you're doing?

Yes! Technology is genuinely incredible.

phil is basically guaranteed to either be scum or towntell very hard very quickly when put under pressure so let's go friends

What Meta Gives You Such An Impression

None?

So you're just guessing?

No? Not everything has to be based in meta. Things can be based in an impression of someone's personality that I got from like two posts.

These responses are BS, but if IIRC we played as scum together once, and you don't feel at all like you're in your scum game.

Twice!
Unfortunately I can't really say the same of you. Maybe a little on this page, but before it you sure don't look much different from what I remember of your scum game.

[implosion]

So on the last page Phil comes off as very town. E.g., 62-64 is a good reaction.

Does that implicate James to you? I.e. do you read their interactions as TvT or TvS?

At this point I'd be inclined to call it TvT. Not confidently. At the time I wouldn't have had any read on James from it.

[implosion]

VOTE: thespio

Moving out today so limited energy.

[implosion]

Hi I still spent a bunch of time today moving and don't really care about thinking about this game deeply atm!

elastic plastic is probably town but not strongly so yet

[implosion]

VOTE: Dry-fit
This seems new and hip

[implosion]

i have no issues with a thespio vote but i'm not one to pass up a wanton wagon on someone that's scumreading me!

[implosion]

implosion wagon doesn't look possible today so

This is a very odd line after Dry-fit has put together all of the effort of describing a naked vote as more likely to come from scum as a means of pushing me.

Voting without pushing and then acting defeatist when no one is scumreading your primary scumread and then joining your primary scumread's wagon that that scumread (me) built with his own sweat and tears seems not very town-minded.

[implosion]

Phil is more obvtown than before.

Starting to hunch that thespio is town though I don’t have like good evidence for it

[implosion]

Correct!

[implosion]

In bed on phone atm.

Should have time to engage tomorrow afternoon. Not going to answer ff’s whole slew of questions to me because there are like 10 and half were answered already; if there are any outstanding ones he particularly cares about I can answer them tomorrow though. Or depending on time and mood I might go through and answer the ones that weren’t explicitly explained later in my iso.

Ff is probably town but I don’t think it’s that strong. Most of the things he’s doing are fakeable. The reasons he has for reading me as scum are pretty bad. Like most of his reasoning in general looks kind of disjointed, as in the conclusions aren’t really directly related to the premises.

[implosion]

Ff is probably town but I don’t think it’s that strong. Most of the things he’s doing are fakeable. The reasons he has for reading me as scum are pretty bad. Like most of his reasoning in general looks kind of disjointed, as in the conclusions aren’t really directly related to the premises.

Bad reasons for scum reads. Disjointed. Easily fakeable. Sure sounds like a town read to me...

I learned a long, long time ago that how logical you think someone is being and how likely they are to be town are entirely unrelated, and the way in which someone is being illogical is what's relevant; the kind of logic you're giving is something that I can see from town.

The reason that I think you're more likely town is basically what Persivul described; it's very onerous to do this kind of thing as scum, much more so than it is to do it as town, at least for most people. But I don't know you or your meta, and I don't know if you're the kind of person who is willing to put that massive effort in upon replace in to a scum slot to construct this sprawling narrative as you catch up to the entire thread. I think it's something that most people aren't capable of faking, mostly because most people (probably myself included) wouldn't be willing to put in that much raw effort. I disagree with, e.g., this as a reason to think that you're town, because it's really not a hard thing to fake as scum in isolation (going back and looking at things with a new lens isn't harder as scum than it is as town). And I suspect that a lot of people see the actual content of your posts as townish, but I don't think that content itself is actually too complex to fake or anything like that, or at least none of it that I've seen in isolation made me feel strongly either way.

[implosion]

I never understand why town gets involved in things like that.

Although this is in reply to Persivul, this gets at the core of where I think the way you're looking at my play is very silly. Another example is this:

He's simply self-evidently obvtown.

I know this is selfdisserving, but I really cant respect a read this strong on day 1 from anyone. Like it just makes me wonder why you are so sure off so little. Do you need me for something that you are going to blatantly buddy Jackel?

I have been wrong on this as well, i once lynched Alonzo on day 1 because he gave a cop lvl clear on someone. He was right and we eventually won the game, but the sureness he showed cost us a mislynch.

You seem to have an obstinate view of how town members act, that is based on how you act as town. And yet when you see examples of town members acting in different ways, you don't update your internal model of how they act; you just cast those examples as aberrations. You don't understand why town gets involved in things like that, but... empirically, they do. Similarly, town are empirically sometimes extremely sure of themselves (though to clarify, that surety in that quote from me was sarcastic), yet you still find things like that suspicious.

[implosion]

Why throw shade and say last night that i could be scum faking it, if you are townreading me.

That sentence isn't throwing shade when read in context; it's tempering my townread of you.

Why say today that you dont know me at all but youre tring me for what you were throwing shade at me for before?

Because again, I am townreading you; i'm just explaining the way in which that townread could be wrong.

[implosion]

fakeable ≠ definitely faked
fakeable ≠ probably faked
fakeable ≠ definitely fakeable by everyone
jesus fucking christ this is not complicated. It feels like you're trying to willfully misconstrue my sentiment.

[implosion]

Imp is focusing on my reading of Pers when my vote is on Phil and I am actively pushing Imp and not Pers.

I'm not "focusing" on anything.
It was an example of how your logic is flawed.

[implosion]

And I'm not really interested in your phil push right now; I don't find it especially swaying, though I'm happy to be convinced potentially.

[implosion]

As for Dry-Fit:

Unvote. Vote: implosion.

Naked votes are more likely to come from scum in my experience.

In other news I wish Persivul didn't spill the beans so soon about our Innocent Child. Should of let more information and hilarity ensue.

I think this was a post you cited as being townish.

Voting me with that logic is, as far as I can tell, entirely null. It's a super trivial vote to fake if he's scum, it's something that can come from a certain kind of townie as well.

I assume your townread is based on the last line... but that last line is like, a REALLY easy thing for scum to throw in a post to get towncred. He's not actually extending the duration of me forgetting about the innocent child by saying that line, he's just saying the line. He as scum can very easily think "oh, it probably would have been good for town if persivul hadn't spilled the beans" and then mention that it would have been better to not spill the beans, even though mentioning it at this point accomplishes nothing for the town.

[implosion]

fakeable ≠ definitely faked
fakeable ≠ probably faked
fakeable ≠ definitely fakeable by everyone
jesus fucking christ this is not complicated. It feels like you're trying to willfully misconstrue my sentiment.

Its not complicated and im not the one misunderstanding whats going on. That would be you.

Im saying that there is no need to say why you could be wrong in your read because its day 1 and we could all be wrong on our reads for any number of reasons. I have never claimed that my reads are going to be right 100% of the time.

But you dont see me sitting here and laying seeds of doubt as to why I could be wrong on dry, or hana, or thes. I am making a read based off the info I have and I am going to trust that read. Either you dont trust yourself and we shouldnt either, or you are fencesitting to see where the winds blow and who could be a viable mislynch for you guys today.

So im good on whats going on here, are you?

Yes; you're a different kind of player than me and refuse to acknowledge that people can have different playstyles for some godforsaken reason

[implosion]

see, I like elaborating reasons I might be wrong. Doing so will let me bounce ideas off of actual helpful players like elastic plastic and come to better conclusions. I like to work together with people, and being transparent about my thought process is a great way to do that.

I'm sorry you don't like my playstyle; you're welcome to keep using your own!

[implosion]

And I'm not really interested in your phil push right now; I don't find it especially swaying, though I'm happy to be convinced potentially.

Ok, could you point out which of my posts on Phil you take issue with and see as town where I see him as scum?

How about starting with his read and vote on JB?

JB comes in with RQS instead of RVS. Phil does a meta dive and finds that JB does this as town and scum. Phil comes back after his dive and still votes JB, and admits that he meta dived and found the act to be NAI for JB.

How do you defend that?

Again, townies are very frequently illogical. I don't see that kind of logical inconsistency as prima facie scummy.

[implosion]

Similar to how I don't find it scummy of you to say that you've seen townies be super sure of themselves on d1, then call me scummy for being super sure of myself on d1.

[implosion]

Pers is making this all personal and isnt saying whether he agrees with my reads or not and why.

Most people aren't saying whether they agree with your reads or not.

Here's where we're butting heads:

I would care as either alignment because that means that I no longer

have control over the game

at all and dont trust the living to listen to the dead to win us the game.

You bust in and want to have control over the game.

I naturally dislike/distrust people who want to be town leader. If they're scum and they succeed, it's usually game over for town. While you seem townie enough, you're exactly the kind of player I'd investigate. But, I'm unusual in that respect. Most people investigate obv scummy players who are going to get lynched anyway.

i like this post.

[implosion]

see, I like elaborating reasons I might be wrong. Doing so will let me bounce ideas off of

actual helpful

players like elastic plastic and come to better conclusions. I like to work together with people, and being transparent about my thought process is a great way to do that.

I'm sorry you don't like my playstyle; you're welcome to keep using your own!

Is this a jab at me, or am i taking you wrong right now?

It's a jab at the way you're approaching the game, specifically the fact that you're criticizing me for being transparent with my thought process, which I find flatly ridiculous.

[implosion]

[voteCHANGED MY MIND SEE BELOW]Thespio[/vote]

Hey look, it's mutual! You're right, I don't have information to work off yet to build associations beyond how you're behaving towards each other, and towards people who vote for either of you... which there's plenty of. I think that there is a connection between the two of you, based on 307 looking like prompting, 314 being a nigh content free momentum shift off you, and now 338 and 339 going the opposite direction.

338 also gets bonus extra scumpoints for the way that you forgot information comes from... what people say, not just hidden info, and you're *also* trying to push me without actually getting your vote on me, which smacks of "wants the lynch to happen but doesn't want to be on the wagon itself when people do VCA later". Which, strangely, is the same thing that chem is doing.

(This said, I'm aware that masons are a thing that can technically happen in this setup alongside IC, which would also be a valid connection, but that seems to be a) quite improbable and b) do a real bad job of explaining your voting behaviour, or lack of same)

(I admit this conflicts with my existing Sakura scumread, as chem/Sakura's interactions don't look S/S.)
------
OKAY SO while I was looking back over chem/sakura to check how I feel about that last parenthesised bit, came across 328 again, which I can't really reconcile with the general thrust of my point here- the chem -> thesp side of the association was already a bit flimsy, though the thesp -> chem bit seems relatively sound, and 328 doesn't fit at all, so I'm barking up totally the wrong tree here. I still feel it's important I get my thought processes out there, at the very least so I can refer back later when I've totally forgotten everything, but retracting the vote, cause I don't agree with my own conclusion there.

I still think Chem and Thesp's behaviour is individually pretty suspect, to be clear, just unwilling to draw a line between them. So gonna stick with Chem for the time being.

Here's something from Phil that I think is really unlikely to come from scum.

First, the mid-post opinion-change is something that I think is very, very hard to fake as scum. It's something that you have to go somewhat far out of your way to fake. Literally the cancelled vote on the first line of the first of these two posts says town to me in isolation, but the paragraph at the end of the post reinforces that it looks genuine to me. I don't think this is a faked line of thought.

Second, the sentiment in the post looks genuinely like town interacting with someone that they're slightly irritated by or think is scum.

Third, the second of the posts gives an opinion with a good amount of nuance, even if I don't entirely agree with the actual logical argument itself; I think the complexity of his reads on thespio/chem/sakura and the subtlety with which he's looking at the different connections between them is really unlikely to be faked.

The first of these three points is the most significant in my mind.

[implosion]

If not, then im not sure how much more interaction we can have. I am willing to work with people and have put out a list to help facilitate that cooperation.

Im not the one who is holding this train up, thats you.

I mean.
My wagon's at l-4, yours is at l-5. I'm allowed to push on people other than who you're pushing on, and that doesn't count as holding up anything, it just counts as working with people who I agree with more, and you can see that I'm trying to understand why you are strong on dry-fit town (I would be happy to see a more in-depth explanation as you offered).

And yes, Phil is referring to the right thing, namely my point about the second half of the second quote from you here:

I never understand why town gets involved in things like that.

Although this is in reply to Persivul, this gets at the core of where I think the way you're looking at my play is very silly. Another example is this:

He's simply self-evidently obvtown.

I know this is selfdisserving, but I really cant respect a read this strong on day 1 from anyone. Like it just makes me wonder why you are so sure off so little. Do you need me for something that you are going to blatantly buddy Jackel?

I have been wrong on this as well, i once lynched Alonzo on day 1 because he gave a cop lvl clear on someone. He was right and we eventually won the game, but the sureness he showed cost us a mislynch.

You seem to have an obstinate view of how town members act, that is based on how you act as town. And yet when you see examples of town members acting in different ways, you don't update your internal model of how they act; you just cast those examples as aberrations. You don't understand why town gets involved in things like that, but... empirically, they do. Similarly, town are empirically sometimes extremely sure of themselves (though to clarify, that surety in that quote from me was sarcastic), yet you still find things like that suspicious.

You might not have been specifically trying to call me scummy there but I'm under the impression you were; feel free to clarify if you weren't.

[implosion]

oh you mean the train of specifically cooperating with you.

But yeah that doesn't have to mean pushing the same people. And I'm not like, interested in primarily cooperating with someone who has me as their second scumread and is dismissing my entire playstyle. I'm more interested in trying to get you to see why you're wrong, and making sure other people see why you're wrong.

[implosion]

It's not tvt because im not calling him scum

It's also not *really* cluttering the thread because the thread was kind of dead-ish until ff replaced in, and I'm grateful that it's sprung to life again. I do want to focus on other people, though, and would love to dialogue with anyone else who's here.

[implosion]

The train I was talking about was the one where we could work together. If we dont have common ground then thats an issue for me and needs to be addressed.

I dont know if you want me to actually say you are scum, like say those exact words, but I did sort you into 2nd from last in a game of 13, so you could infer that I think you are scum, or I could say it, which I feel like I did, when I offered to have you help us lynch yourself.

this whole argument is completely moot afaic

[implosion]

And dont playstyle police me.

lmfao

[implosion]

I'll talk about the rest of this post as well, but.

Im against your policy lynch, as It discourages genuine clash. If someone comes across poorly you try to kill them... which is toxic in and of its self.

Do you really think there's any chance of a policy lynch? This seems like a contrived attempt at contributing.

implosion wagon doesn't look possible today so

Unvote. Vote: Thespio.

This is the only suspect post in the bunch of them, and you didnt even use it as your evidence of him being scum.

1 scummy post out of 6 that I pulled from his iso doesnt make him scum to me, it makes him town, with a slight lean.

This is very literally the only thing that I have called scummy so far from dry-fit. I have no idea how you get that I "didn't even use it as my evidence of him being scum".

531 was just me giving an example of me disagreeing with your townread of him. I don't think that the post I cited there (113) is especially scummy but it is not townish in the slightest. The reasoning you're now giving for that post is:

I liked this vote because you are eventaully going to vote for 6 different people in 40 posts and I dont think you back up any of them with even a joke reason.

And I agree with his stance on Pers that it would have been useful to town for more info to come out. I can understand why you disagree because you were scumreading the Innocent Child and thats just embarrassing.

Liking a vote on me for things that I did after the vote is absurd. Even if the implication is that I'm scum and so it's good that he voted me... there's no reason not to think that this vote is distancing. Like I shouldn't need to explain why it's stupid to like a vote because of things that happened after the vote.

And that's the thing - I *DON'T* disagree with Pers! I think it would have been great for him to not remind me that Skellen was the IC! I just don't think Dry-Fit should get any credit for pointing out that it would have been good for Persivul to play that way, because it's really easy for Dry-Fit, as scum, to think of it as a point that could be made even though it's too late for the town to get any benefit from making that point. Just because the point that Dry-Fit made is accurate and logically sound, and explains something that could have been done that *would* have benefitted town, doesn't mean that it's something scum is unlikely to post. If Dry-Fit had finagled Persivul to not give up that info *before* he had, then that would be a different story. That's the entire point of what I was saying in 531.

[implosion]

This is another great example of why I described your logic as disjointed and find it really hard to work with - how the fuck am I supposed to talk to you about townreading someone for reasons that defy causality?????? Why does someone get credit for voting for me for things that I would *eventually* go on to do?

[implosion]

Looking at the rest of this:

Spoiler: FF's Dry-Fit wall

Vote: Chemist1422

Laziest post so far.

Solid RVS vote.

Sure.

Dryfit, any specific reads on that list you disagree with, or just generically don't feel they're good?

More I just don't think they're good in general.

Although to be fair the Jackal town read wasn't too bad, albeit based on one post.

Having conflicting reads about James right now.

I liked this post for showing the start of a process.

I actually liked this post as well at the time, specifically for the fact that he called the Jackal read better than the others; not a strong read, however.

Can people start doing more AI stuff.

Why not do something to try to make that happen? You're play has been very passive so far.

Drew's Persivul vote is probably the worst vote of the game so far.

Gonna try to get a reread in tonight.

Why does scumDry poke Hana here? Scum would languish in the fact that the thread is dead and nothing was happening that forced them to act. Like I am now. Scum is going to be forced to come out of their hidey holes and try to discredit me as much as possible.

And Drews vote was pretty bad.

Plenty of reasons for scum-him to poke Hana there. He might have been going through, seen that post, saw it as something easy to respond to, and responded to it. He might be trying to go for towncred by making it look like he has an investment in people doing alignment-indicative things.

As for scum languishing in the fact that the thread is dead... Dry-Fit didn't exactly do anything whatsoever to help that problem with this post. It was his first post in ~30 hours, so he had to talk about *something*. His purported reread that he wanted to get in resulted in two more posts, before he didn't post all weekend. So yeah, he is kind of languishing in the fact that the thread is dead?

As for Drew's vote being pretty bad: yeah, it's pretty bad. Dry-Fit said something agreeable here. Agreeability isn't a towntell. Scum say agreeable and correct things all the time. Drew wouldn't surprise me as scum here. I think I had mixed opinions of Drew's vote and play there at the time but I can definitely understand seeing that vote as bad. It's just not something that only town is likely to make a note of.

Question though, why did you want us bumbling fools who didn't notice the IC reveal/who the IC was to remain ignorant to it? What benefit does it offer town?

You want Sakura to do things to develop reads, yet you also want us bumbling fools to dance for your jollies. And what sort of usable info would you pull from this?

If players think that Skellen is unconfirmed, they will interact with her differently than they will when she's confirmed IC. So it's basically two interactions for the price of one. One interaction with unconfirmed Skellen, and one with IC Skellen. Who knows what info we would have gotten if Persivul had held back Skellen's role, but it could well have been useful. As it is, we got implosion's scumread on Skellen. Nothing about it seems noteworthy to me, but others may be able to glean something from it.

This is from a town mindset.

It's a trivial thing to fake as scum. Like, sometimes things that look like they come from a town mindset are great towntells because they're things that scum wouldn't have thought of, or they're e.g. setup-based strategic insights that scum might have avoided saying. But this paragraph is something that's really easy to come up with as scum that is putting themself in a town mindset. Because again, the actual saying and explaining of it doesn't help town at all.

Basically, his early iso is mixed to me. There's nothing really scummy in it, even! But there's nothing strongly town, just the kind of early game stuff that plenty of people are great at faking (rvs vote, 87). And 303, combined with the fact that he didn't pots for two days before 303 and hasn't posted for two days since, is just *that* bad.

[implosion]

But the thing is...
I feel like Fish's been asking implo about his townread of phil for a while, specially the tr early in the game, and then implo comes and quotes a late post saying "See this is why he's town" instead of actually explaining the early townread, which feels to me like he's dodging the issue.

There are many things I have to say. Hold your horses. FF posted a hundred fucking posts in one night and I have things to do other than sit in front of this computer for seven hours straight right now typing mafia posts.

I have already explained the early townread on phil a little in 133 and it was weaker so I didn't really care to explain it in depth unless someone asked, and no one did; that post that I made explaining the later townread (547) that you're referring to was specifically me explaining why I went from a townread to calling him obvtown in 355

Does that make sense? What else is it you want explained here, exactly?

[implosion]

The train I was talking about was the one where we could work together. If we dont have common ground then thats an issue for me and needs to be addressed.

I dont know if you want me to actually say you are scum, like say those exact words, but I did sort you into 2nd from last in a game of 13, so you could infer that I think you are scum, or I could say it, which I feel like I did, when I offered to have you help us lynch yourself.

this whole argument is completely moot afaic

Btw what is your defense of your voting patterns

This is another thing I haven't gotten to because of FF posting 100 posts and not really wanting the thread to be another 100 posts of me responding to him.

It's an interesting point because these voting patterns are actually one of the things that I've only recently managed to replicate in my scumgames; it's just how I play town, and the *opposite* would actually have been a pretty good scumtell for me a while ago, I think. I don't see a reason to stay with one vote early. I think wagons for the sake of wagons are really beneficial, which is an opinion that I can trace back to a game from most of a decade ago. But apart from self-meta:

I don't think vote hopping early is a scumtell at all in the first place. Sure, it can benefit scum to push wagons on town, but there's a counterbalancing force where scum are frequently afraid to "put themselves out there" or do anything that would make them become the center of attention in the game, and vote hopping a bunch is a great way to do exactly that. Formerfish is clearly a player who values logic; this is presumably why he's criticizing me for votehopping with empty votes so often, but this isn't specifically indicative of scum. As scum, one might even be more inclined to give reasoning to a vote, again so as to not stand out and not draw ire from players who don't like that kind of thing. But I digress; none of those empty votes are actually for no reason (except for the Persivul RVS vote). I like giving empty votes early because it's useful to me to see how different players act around that kind of thing, in particular if someone gets wagoned early with empty votes it's interesting to see who on the wagon they react to most strongly. The fact that they're all on different players is coincidental. I can give those reasons, as well:

VOTE: Persivul

VOTE: Phillammon

Unvote

VOTE: Sakura Hana

VOTE: Chemist1422

VOTE: thespio
Moving out today so limited energy.

VOTE: Dry-fit
This seems new and hip

In order:
RVS on Persivul.

Voted Phil because he unvoted so quickly from the RVS wagon. And I meant what I said in 30, and didn't think it mattered if I said anything, and lo and behold I now think Phil is obvtown.

I voted Sakura probably to humor Phil's scumread on Sakura, and because I was no longer interested in voting Phil and wanted to use it somewhere. I don't remember it especially well. Oh actually I explained it in 85. At least I think that's why I voted her?

For Chemist, for reasons mentioned in 85 I was no longer interested in a Sakura vote and needed to put it somewhere, had no real scumreads, saw Dry-Fit's vote on chem as an opportunity to possibly make a wagon on a lurker.

The Thespio vote really shouldn't be considered as a naked vote bc I'd already explained it.

The Dry-Fit vote was actually initially entirely wanton wagoning for its own sake, because competing wagons early are again very useful to analyze. After the vote I realized I really didn't like post 303, and so the vote has stayed until now; I also lost my scumread on Thespio.

[implosion]

Regarding my own reads right now:

Townreads go something like:
Phil > Elastic Plastic > Gamma > James Brafin > Formerfish > Persivul > Thespio

I don't expect all of those reads to be correct and the ordering near the middle is very sketchy.

Dry-Fit is my only material scumread. Leaves Drew, Sakura and Chemist to sort right now.

[implosion]

Phil is more obvtown than before.

Starting to hunch that thespio is town though I don’t have like good evidence for it

[implosion]

there's a difference between reviving the thread, and flooding it and taking over around 75% of all discourse.

it's a fine line, but i think you can figure out how to tread it

[implosion]

there's a difference between reviving the thread, and flooding it and taking over around 75% of all discourse.

it's a fine line, but i think you can figure out how to tread it

Would it have been more acceptable to you if I had been here all along and had those conversations live? Just imagine that happened, could explain why youre so salty towards me.

I'm not saying it's unacceptable. Just saying that it means I have a lot of shit to respond to and points to make and I don't understand what things Sakura wants from me exactly.

[implosion]

These posts interest me, I'm with Sakura about the Phil read but I'm curious about this "read that defies causality"?

568, the section responding to post 113, saying about a vote on me:

I liked this vote because you are eventaully going to vote for 6 different people in 40 posts and I dont think you back up any of them with even a joke reason.

Saying that he likes a vote because of things that were done after that vote.

[implosion]

If there are any outstanding points you actually want me to reply to FF, let me know, because a significant number of the things in your ISO are questions to me that are then answered later in my ISO and I'm not sure what there is left that you actually care about. Possibly the trajectory of my phil read? I *think* that's what sakura wants me to explain more?

[implosion]

GE town for general mindmeldings

bye

Is there a reason for the curtness?

[implosion]

Imp you made 4 pretty naked votes and then Dry voted you. Then you voted Thes and then Dry for your 5th and 6th votes.

Thanks for the clarification, and my apologies for interpreting what you said as what you said. Doesn't really change much apart from clarifying though.

I was a bit curious and so I'm metaing myself a bit on this and there is an astonishing lack of "normal" towngames that I have completed recently (unless I'm missing something my most recent mini-sized towngame is here, there are a couple micros but they mostly have weird mechanics). Coincidentally, I voted 6 different people in 50 posts on day one, the sixth of which was Espeonage who I then tunneled to lynch on d1 and who flipped scum. The first four of those votes (and the sixth) were naked or basically naked. It's actually remarkably similar to this game from that standpoint.

[implosion]

I feel like you’re willfully missing the main point here.

The point isn’t that I always lynch scum. That was a minor detail. I’m wrong plenty on early scumreads, and I’ll flip off people I’ve been tunneling if they start looking like town to me (I can remember doing that to gamma emerald in one game off the top of my head).

The point is that wanton naked voting is something I do as town, and it’s wrong to say that it’s scummy just because.

[implosion]

I don’t think anyone is advocating to lynch formerfish?

[implosion]

Sky, what do you think of my Phil-town argument?

[implosion]

Just isod thespio and I think I take back that townread, there isn’t really anything meaningfully town that I see.

[implosion]

Regarding my own reads right now:

Townreads go something like:
Phil > Elastic Plastic > Gamma > James Brafin > Formerfish > Persivul > Thespio

I don't expect all of those reads to be correct and the ordering near the middle is very sketchy.

Dry-Fit is my only material scumread. Leaves Drew, Sakura and Chemist to sort right now.

[implosion]

and yeah the Phil thing isn’t a full town case it’s just an argument about two posts.

[voteCHANGED MY MIND SEE BELOW]Thespio[/vote]

Hey look, it's mutual! You're right, I don't have information to work off yet to build associations beyond how you're behaving towards each other, and towards people who vote for either of you... which there's plenty of. I think that there is a connection between the two of you, based on 307 looking like prompting, 314 being a nigh content free momentum shift off you, and now 338 and 339 going the opposite direction.

338 also gets bonus extra scumpoints for the way that you forgot information comes from... what people say, not just hidden info, and you're *also* trying to push me without actually getting your vote on me, which smacks of "wants the lynch to happen but doesn't want to be on the wagon itself when people do VCA later". Which, strangely, is the same thing that chem is doing.

(This said, I'm aware that masons are a thing that can technically happen in this setup alongside IC, which would also be a valid connection, but that seems to be a) quite improbable and b) do a real bad job of explaining your voting behaviour, or lack of same)

(I admit this conflicts with my existing Sakura scumread, as chem/Sakura's interactions don't look S/S.)
------
OKAY SO while I was looking back over chem/sakura to check how I feel about that last parenthesised bit, came across 328 again, which I can't really reconcile with the general thrust of my point here- the chem -> thesp side of the association was already a bit flimsy, though the thesp -> chem bit seems relatively sound, and 328 doesn't fit at all, so I'm barking up totally the wrong tree here. I still feel it's important I get my thought processes out there, at the very least so I can refer back later when I've totally forgotten everything, but retracting the vote, cause I don't agree with my own conclusion there.

I still think Chem and Thesp's behaviour is individually pretty suspect, to be clear, just unwilling to draw a line between them. So gonna stick with Chem for the time being.

Here's something from Phil that I think is really unlikely to come from scum.

First, the mid-post opinion-change is something that I think is very, very hard to fake as scum. It's something that you have to go somewhat far out of your way to fake. Literally the cancelled vote on the first line of the first of these two posts says town to me in isolation, but the paragraph at the end of the post reinforces that it looks genuine to me. I don't think this is a faked line of thought.

Second, the sentiment in the post looks genuinely like town interacting with someone that they're slightly irritated by or think is scum.

Third, the second of the posts gives an opinion with a good amount of nuance, even if I don't entirely agree with the actual logical argument itself; I think the complexity of his reads on thespio/chem/sakura and the subtlety with which he's looking at the different connections between them is really unlikely to be faked.

The first of these three points is the most significant in my mind.

[implosion]

The Fish is town.

Why?

[implosion]

Any other opinions on anyone, gobble?

[implosion]

What do you see as the best evidence for doctor drew scum?

I can see myself joining thespio or chemist wagons, not sure which i like more atm. Also not sure if I want to stay on gobbledy. Ho hum. I'd love some fresh dialogue with people I haven't chatted with much (or people I have but)

[implosion]

I’m here, just mostly rl distracted, following but not reading closely. I’m flying to the east coast tomorrow.

I’m happy to threaten a thespio hammer. Can maybe see gobble as town.

[implosion]

if sky tells me to lolhammer in her next post i'll do it

[implosion]

you aren't skygazer!

[implosion]

it's okay i was lying

[implosion]

~

~

~

~

Intent to hammer

~

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~



how's that

[implosion]

o i thought gobb was on the wagon before selfvoting

[implosion]

SKYGAZER I'M SORRY

[implosion]

good job friends

my reads were mostly total ass!

idk why scum shot me!!!